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Dammit Viktor

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It actually started as a discussion of how one of the artists for New Mutants insisted on giving Cannonball a forehead that was 8 stories tall.

Kid's got a fivehead and his mama named him "Sam". Makes you wonder if the Leader ever spent any time in Kentucky.
 

EmperorNorton

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Sienkiewicz was extremely stylized, but his run on New Mutants was easily one of the best visual stretches of the title.

I didn't mind most of his stylization, but the way he drew Sam with the ridiculously massive forehead, and Rahne with the most angular square face always put me off.

I do think it is funny how much of his stylization of Legion has stuck as just canon appearance though.
 

Tulpa Girl

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I didn't mind most of his stylization, but the way he drew Sam with the ridiculously massive forehead, and Rahne with the most angular square face always put me off.

I do think it is funny how much of his stylization of Legion has stuck as just canon appearance though.
It's always amused me that other artists took his exaggerated initial depiction of Strong Guy at face value, ignoring the fact that pretty much all of his characters at that point were drawn in a non-realistic manner.
 

EmperorNorton

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It's always amused me that other artists took his exaggerated initial depiction of Strong Guy at face value, ignoring the fact that pretty much all of his characters at that point were drawn in a non-realistic manner.

I like how his absolutely ridiculous physique eventually just got worked into his background story and explanation of his powers.
 

Voros

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Having previously missed the carwrecks that were Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum I'm reading them now to see if they are as bad as everyone says and...hell yeah they are.

From the art to the writing this is trash and not in the good way that I like.

It reads like a 12-year-old boy incompetently aping Alan Moore and Garth Ennis. Artwise it is everything I hate in modern superhero comics.
 

hawkeyefan

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Yeah, Ultimates was already the Avengers pushed as far as I’d want to see them go, and although there were some moments I wasn’t fond of, overall it was an interesting take on the concepts.

Ultimates 3 was just horrible in a way I couldn’t even comprehend. I’ve never abandoned a book quicker. Issue 1 was all I needed.
 

hawkeyefan

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With a handful of exceptions, he’s pretty awful when it comes to actual comics. You’ll see his name as a producer in a ton of Marvel stuff before the MCU took off.

Generally speaking, the collaborations he had with Tim Sale are pretty good. Batman: The Long Halloween and Superman For All Seasons are probably the standouts.

Edited to add: He's actually a producer on all the Marvel TV stuff, actually, with the exception of WandaVision. He was involved with all the Marvel Netflix and Hulu series.
 
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David Johansen

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I think my favorite part of Ultimates was hippy Thor. "I thought you wanted to save the world." "I am saving the world General Fury, from people like you." But I also loved that nobody believed he was Thor. I mean, why would they? There were lots of good bits in the first two and then they handed it to Loeb.
 

hawkeyefan

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It says something that Loeb's work was actually less subtle that Millar's work that preceded it.

Yeah. Millar was a bit uneven on Ultimates, but it was entertaining overall. Subtle it was not, but it had some interesting takes on the concepts, and the action was well done.

There is nothing redeemable about Ultimates 3.
 

EmperorNorton

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So I'm continuing my "reread everything X-Men" adventure. I have decided to skip some things. Mostly because I've already read them before and I don't think they add much to the overall adventure. Not reading Wolverine again because I didn't enjoy his solo stuff very much outside of the Weapon X things. Not reading all the like crossovers where it's someone else's comic and an X-Man just happens to show up.

Anyway. I just got done with Inferno and... my god that storyline is a jumbled mess. And I say that as someone who did actually like some of the broad strokes, mostly on the side of Mr Sinister stuff. All the demon parts really just make the story worse.
 

hawkeyefan

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Anyway. I just got done with Inferno and... my god that storyline is a jumbled mess. And I say that as someone who did actually like some of the broad strokes, mostly on the side of Mr Sinister stuff. All the demon parts really just make the story worse.

Yeah, for sure. It was like there were two different stories that Claremont wanted to treat as one. Like, I get the connection of Madeline Pryor, but the whole “mad scientist” and “demon invasion” mashup was just...perplexing.
 

EmperorNorton

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Another thing I notice a LOT with rereading through all X-titles: The more the story is about the core premise, and the villains are either other mutants who have different philosophies, or the villains are oppressors like The Right/Purifiers/US Government/Etc, the better the storyline tends to be.

Every time the story turns to like, demons or generic supervillains or Loki or Arcade or the Brood, etc I just kind of groan at this point.
 

Gabriel

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Anyway. I just got done with Inferno and... my god that storyline is a jumbled mess. And I say that as someone who did actually like some of the broad strokes, mostly on the side of Mr Sinister stuff. All the demon parts really just make the story worse.

Did you go through ALL of Inferno or just the Uncanny and X-Factor parts? Inferno is my second favorite after X-Tinction Agenda, but even I'll admit that the New Mutants and X-Terminators parts are absolutely unbearable.
 

TristramEvans

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There's an Inferno Omnibus coming out next month

inferno.JPG


contains: X-Factor (1986) 33-40; X-Terminators (1988) 1-4; Uncanny X-Men (1981) 239-243; New Mutants (1983) 71-73; Power Pack (1984) 40, 42-44; Avengers (1963) 298-300; Fantastic Four (1961) 322-324; Amazing Spider-Man (1963) 311-313; Spectacular Spider-Man (1976) 146-148; Web of Spider-Man (1985) 47-48; Daredevil (1964) 262-263, 265; Excalibur (1988) 6-7; Mutant Misadventures of Cloak and Dagger (1988) 4, material from X-Factor Annual 4 (1986)
 

Voros

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So I'm continuing my "reread everything X-Men" adventure. I have decided to skip some things. Mostly because I've already read them before and I don't think they add much to the overall adventure. Not reading Wolverine again because I didn't enjoy his solo stuff very much outside of the Weapon X things. Not reading all the like crossovers where it's someone else's comic and an X-Man just happens to show up.

Anyway. I just got done with Inferno and... my god that storyline is a jumbled mess. And I say that as someone who did actually like some of the broad strokes, mostly on the side of Mr Sinister stuff. All the demon parts really just make the story worse.

Inferno is when I started to tune out of X-Men although I Iiked the extended surreal and dreamlike sequences of Madeline and S'ym.

bdcdd3097ab92886dee7e1b384367e30.jpg

I was a fan of the short Brood sequence around the same point but mostly because of Silvestri's rough and ready artwork.

Uncanny_X-Men_Vol_1_251.jpg
 
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Gabriel

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Uncanny X-Men Omnibus #4 releases on March 2. It covers Uncanny #176 thru #193, plus Kitty Pryde & Wolverine as well as X-Men and Alpha Flight.

This one represents the earliest part of my time regularly following the X-Men. and is what I personally call the "Prologue Period" where the X-Men are in relative peace, the players are being introduced, but the storm is gathering.

Deluxe Handbook of the Marvel Universe was also supposed to be released at the same time, compiling all the 80s Deluxe Handbooks into one massive tome, but that one seems to have been delayed.
 

TristramEvans

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alot of stuff originally slated for March-April now isnt coming until September I've noticed
 

Gabriel

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Inferno is when I started to tune out of X-Men although I Iiked the extended surreal and dreamlike sequences of Madeline and S'ym.

I think that sequence where the image of Cyclops strips away everything about Madeline and "rebuilds Jean" is really powerful.
 

EmperorNorton

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Did you go through ALL of Inferno or just the Uncanny and X-Factor parts? Inferno is my second favorite after X-Tinction Agenda, but even I'll admit that the New Mutants and X-Terminators parts are absolutely unbearable.

Yeah the Uncanny and X-Factor parts are the better parts of it. Honestly, I think that the overall plotting of the entire Sinister/Pryor situation is just so good... and man if they could have done it without the entire demon parts it could have been better.

Also, X-Tinction Agenda is pretty high for me as well. The whole concept of Genosha is legitimately nightmare fuel, and they make such good antagonists.

My favorite would probably be Legion Quest into Age of Apocalypse. But I love alt timeline and time travel bullshit. Also, also, even though I know it is heavily flawed, I really do enjoy X-Cutioner's Song.

EDIT: And going more recent, I do like Messiah Complex into Messiah War into Second Coming.

EDIT EDIT: Oh, and also I really enjoy Phalanx Covenant. It is peak "regular humans go to insane lengths to try and commit genocide on mutants" storyline.
 
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hawkeyefan

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Inferno is my favourite X-storyline. But I agree it, on the surface, seems a disjointed mess. The thing is, half of it was in-jokes and commentaries on the comicbook industry.

I don’t know if I ever heard that before. What kind of commentary?
 

E-Rocker

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I loved Inferno! A not-insignificant part was Madelyn Pryor in the Goblin Queen outfit :wink: , but I also really enjoyed the story. I especially liked the Excalibur issues that tied into it. I remember, I was reading one at the doctor's office, and my mom was kinda reading it over my shoulder, and said "That's weird, E-Rocker." (except with my real name, of course). There was a toilet possessed by a demon in that issue, iirc...
 

TristramEvans

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I don’t know if I ever heard that before. What kind of commentary?

The "Demons" storyline was a parody of the indy comic movement of the time, with S'ym being based on Dave Sim (and visually on Cerebus) and N'astirh on one of the publishrs of Fantagraphix (forget their name), while their demonic horde was supposedly takes on the TMNT and their various clones (radioactive adolescent blackbelt hamsters, etc). The Technovirus is an allusion to the sweeping alterations in the production methods of comics at the time as the industry was phasing out the four-colour dot atrix printing method. There's more, but it's been a very long time, will have to look into it again.
 

Gabriel

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Not arguing against any of that, but S'ym would have had to have been set up as a parody all the way back in Uncanny #160.

I will say that now you've pointed it out, I do see the S'ym/Cerebus resemblance.
 

hawkeyefan

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I had heard the S'ym and David Sim stuff before, but I think they were kind of pals when S'ym was first introduced? Maybe not. I'd never heard about the techno organic stuff as a comment on modern printing etc. Interesting.

I know Claremont was very annoyed by them bringing back Jean, and how much of a dick they turned Cyclops into for abandoning Maddie and their kid....so I knew some of that had come into play.
 

EmperorNorton

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I know Claremont was very annoyed by them bringing back Jean, and how much of a dick they turned Cyclops into for abandoning Maddie and their kid....so I knew some of that had come into play.

Honestly, having reread it recently, not to say Cyclops isn't somewhat at fault, but I think he gets way more blame for all of that than he deserved. It's like, very messy. Like, yes he should have explained where he was going, and he should have told Jean about Maddie and Nathan, but I can see why he would go to NYC after hearing that one of his lifelong friends showed up alive after everyone thought she was dead.

And he did try to call not long after and all the lines had been disconnected. And he tried to contact other people and no one could get in touch with her. And when he went back they literally had put a decoy dead body out to make him think she was dead.

Basically: Cyclops is yes a dick, but it really wasn't AS shitty as a lot of people make it out to be.
 

Gabriel

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Honestly, having reread it recently, not to say Cyclops isn't somewhat at fault, but I think he gets way more blame for all of that than he deserved. It's like, very messy. Like, yes he should have explained where he was going, and he should have told Jean about Maddie and Nathan, but I can see why he would go to NYC after hearing that one of his lifelong friends showed up alive after everyone thought she was dead.

And he did try to call not long after and all the lines had been disconnected. And he tried to contact other people and no one could get in touch with her. And when he went back they literally had put a decoy dead body out to make him think she was dead.

Basically: Cyclops is yes a dick, but it really wasn't AS shitty as a lot of people make it out to be.

There's also a subplot where someone is trying to mess with Scott's sanity at the same time. And it dovetails into what (presumably) Sinister was doing with erasing all trace of Madeline. I seem to recall some scene in X-Factor where they find a holographic device which had been planted to project the "hallucinations" Scott had been having.

I think it happens right after (?) Scott takes off his visor in front of Jean to prove that she's really Phoenix, only to discover that Leech is nearby and is the only reason he didn't unintentionally vaporize her.

Not really related, but my favorite X-Factor arc is the 6-issue storyline where they go to the Celestial planet full of mutants. I wish that one were reprinted in color.
 

hawkeyefan

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Honestly, having reread it recently, not to say Cyclops isn't somewhat at fault, but I think he gets way more blame for all of that than he deserved. It's like, very messy. Like, yes he should have explained where he was going, and he should have told Jean about Maddie and Nathan, but I can see why he would go to NYC after hearing that one of his lifelong friends showed up alive after everyone thought she was dead.

And he did try to call not long after and all the lines had been disconnected. And he tried to contact other people and no one could get in touch with her. And when he went back they literally had put a decoy dead body out to make him think she was dead.

Basically: Cyclops is yes a dick, but it really wasn't AS shitty as a lot of people make it out to be.

Oh yeah, they tried to mitigate it somewhat. But I think it was the need to spin things that annoyed Claremont. Because the drive to have the original five appear in X-Factor was a decision from editorial, and it didn't matter what plans he had for Cyclops or Maddie or any of that. Now it all had to change to fit around the X-Factor stuff. And you had the added effect of Cyclops leaving his wife and newborn to check on Jean (which may be understandable, although maybe leave a note like "Got some superhero shit to do in NY, be back soon!") and then calling like a few issues later.

I agree that some of the outrage about it goes way overboard....clearly there was an editorial mandate that caused all this....but man, they probably could have handled it better.

I think one of the things I take away from the Claremont run is that if you're too successful on a book, then you better be prepared for the company to cash in and then fuck up your plans with spin off books and crossovers and all that stuff.
 

TristramEvans

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seems weirdly appropriate...

49706562188_e4491b2b99_o.jpg
 

EmperorNorton

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See, I honestly think that it all turned out better though. I think Claremont's run on Uncanny was getting kind of meh at that point. Especially when you got to stuff like The Adversary and the whole Australia relocation.

On the other hand. while X-Factor editorial shit pulling Cyclops in because editorial said so is annoying as a writer I'm sure, it led to the beginning of my favorite characterization of Cyclops - Scott Summers: Human Disaster/Mutant Savior. Like it took several more years to turn full Cyclops is bad at being a person but great at being a leader for mutants, but I think that is the beginning of it.
 

TristramEvans

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I really liked the Australia era with punk Storm as team leader
 

EmperorNorton

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Most of Punk Storm as leader though is before Australia era (and she "dies" not far into it when Nanny kidnaps her).

Also, I think I'm soured on that era because it is bookended by bullshittery: Starts with The Adversary, Ends with The Siege Perilous. (Also iirc Australia era lasts only like, a year and a half or something like that.)
 
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