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I should point out, that two things people see are part of the Superman Mythos, came from outside the comics. Superman's flight was introduced in the Fleisher cartoons. Kryptonite was from the radio serials.

The thing about these Iconic legends is that they will naturally change with the retelling, and morph over time, based on the popularity and the various retellings. King Arthur is getting brought up, but it went through some semi-historical tales to a lot of changes over time. Something tells me if these DC and Marvel characters stories are told 500 years from now--and that's a very big if, as society and civilizations change and I think 98% of the 20th century pop culture will not survive a few hundred years of time...it will likely be very different from what we know--amalgamized over time based on the best periods, how successful the retellings were, and if the appeal lasted--and likely the origins will change to fit the times (or relegated to tales of the old 20th century).
 
With a few exceptions (Bendis on Daredevil, Morrison on X-Men, etc.) since the 90s I find most of the best work in superhero comics remains in creator-controlled titles and more peripheral titles with lesser appreciated heroes who haven't got the same level of Canon Cruft (e.g. Fraction's Hawkeye).

It was also in the 90s that I drifted away from superhero comics towards horror, sf and especially crime comics. There is also a longstanding counter-tradition of surreal weirdo comics I continue to enjoy, that often crossover in other genres like horror (e.g.Josh Simmons), sf, exploitation and pulp.
 
Just as Batgirl and Harley Quinn originated outside the comics. The Joker and a great deal of what makes Batman the character he is today, didn't come from Bob Kane's initial conception of the character, but were added by Bill Finger along the way. Stories are in flux, and along the way accumulate essential elements and other details are discarded.

Then again, Raimi added biological webshooters to his Spider-man film, and the comics followed suit to match up with the films. And then the next series of films discarded this, and...well, no idea what the comics did in response, but it certainly shows the folly of that approach.

Of course, one also can't cmpare characters who spent half a century without continuity to characters who grew/developed in a continuity. Spider-man isn't Batan or Superman. I've often lamented DC's constant half-assed attempts to impose Continuity on characters, which would only work if they fully committed in a way they haven't managed to in 40 years. Hence constant reboots ("this time we'll get it right!")

None of which has anything to do with anything I'm talking about insofar as iconic representations of characters in the comics, of course, except insofar as the stuff that is essential remains essential - all attempts to discard or subvert it become temporary and forgettable.
 
Lol, well I hope I did't give that impression...I don't hold the characters themselves, as a fictional concept, responsible for anything. My ire is completely directed towards the editorial staff and writers.

When I say Spider-man "isn't the character I grew up with", I'm completely talking about the way he's been handled by creators over the last 20+ years.

Ha no, I didn't mean it literally. More like I can recognize that One More Day was a terrible story, but that some of the comics that followed were very much like those I grew up with. I’ve only read a handful of Spider-Man comics since then, but some were very good. I’m sure some were terrible.

My point being that if you don’t consider the Spider-Man of One More Day to be the one you grew up with, I bet that Spider-Man has made some appearances since then.

I mean...they can feel that way? I was born 17 years after the original Ditko and Romita run, it didn't prevent me from going back and appreciating those stories. If anything, for new readers these days there's less of an excuse to not be familiar with the actual classic representations of those heroes - from online reprints, to the Marvel Essentials series, to the Omnibus collections. There was nothing like that when I got into comics, even trade paperback collections weren't really a thing until much later. The closest we had were the Marvel Masterworks line, and that was paying really steep prices for like 10 issues, and you couldn't exactly pick those things up at B.Dalton in the mall.

I don’t know. I remember a buddy of mine in high school let me borrow his dad’s copy of Amazing Spider-Man #2 (looking back on this I’m amazed that he did this, I expect his dad had no idea). I don't know if I’ve ever been so disappointed as when at the end of the issue, Spider-Man beats Sandman by....sucking him up with a vacuum.

Now, I have since learned to appreciate a lot about those early comics. The raw creativity and the innovation that was going on was simply incredible. Not always readily apparent when viewed later on and without a full grasp of context.

Honestly, if I was to try to get a kid today to get into comics, the Lee/Ditko issues wouldn’t be the first thing I’d give them.

I’m not quite sure what that would be, actually. I’d probably be more inclined to hand them the first volume of Ultimate Spider-Man. Maybe?

What I'm saying is Im happy with either of these approaches, but neither are what's currently on offer. (from MArvel or DC anyways, the Mignolaverse seems to be doing good).

I don’t want to come across like I’m defending Marvel. The majority of what they put out is not to my taste these days. DC even less so. There are a couple of exceptions. The bulk of what I enjoy is from the other publishers like Image and Dark Horse and the like.

I'm actually not a fan of comics synergizig with the films, especially as the films move farther and farther away from beig comicbook adaptions.

Yeah I’m not crazy with the synergy either, though I can accept some instances. I didn’t mind Hawkeye using a costume closer to that if the films, for instance. Some other stuff. Plenty of bad examples of that kind of thing, though.

I’m just curious if that synergy will actually help break the stagnation of having to keep the same unchanging character forever.
 
The best thing about the MCU is that they are using real-time (well, up until Endgame anyway with it being 2023).
 
Another amazing modern single issue for me is Moon Knight (vol.7) #5




The way it creates "motion" with the static art is just fantastic.


Another great comic.

Someone mentioned, and it was a very good point, that the best stuff at Marvel and DC in recent years is done with the characters who haven’t had as much exposure over the years, not like the flagship ones anyway. Your Hawkeyes and Moon Knights and the like.

They’re just less bogged down with piling continuity.
 
It’s on the short list, for sure.

Now I’m trying to think of what else might be on that list....that’s tough....
 
This is why I want to write Moon Knight, and completely make him something unique; something he's better at, and not as some people think a knock-off Batman (Marvel has done some good with him off and on lately, I'll give them that.)

I know, however, how to spin him to shut the door on the old continuity and open a new beginning which doesn't make him "not" Moon Knight, and doesn't remove his past--just clarifies it to a modern audience to something they might understand. Both were inspired by the Shadow; Batman a bit by the Lamont Cranston identity of a rich playboy, Moon Knight by the "I've more than one secret identity."

Oh, he'd still be strange, in fact, a bit stranger than he has been lately (which I've mostly enjoyed.) But the multiple identities/DID elements would be more than "the moon makes you crazy," type cyclical concept, which is slightly post-dates Khonshu's time and people's ideas of the moon a lot.
 
The first Batman / TMNT miniseries was really good. The page where Michelangelo makes the pro and con list for Batman is so funny.

It’s on the short list, for sure.

Now I’m trying to think of what else might be on that list....that’s tough....

If you don't mind a really dark story about depression and suicide the recent Mr. Miracle series probably has a stand out issue.
 
The first Batman / TMNT miniseries was really good. The page where Michelangelo makes the pro and con list for Batman is so funny.



If you don't mind a really dark story about depression and suicide the recent Mr. Miracle series probably has a stand out issue.

It’s definitely one of the series that sprang to mind. Not sure which specific issue I’d pick from them, though.
 
Probably the first issue. The idea's fresh and crazy and they sell it so hard.
 
Makes sense. Yeah, the whole DARKSEID IS and just the situation. Bleak and disturbing, but intriguing.

Another single issue that springs to mind is the Pax Americana issue of Morrison’s Multiversity. That issue is pretty bonkers.
 
This is why I want to write Moon Knight, and completely make him something unique; something he's better at, and not as some people think a knock-off Batman (Marvel has done some good with him off and on lately, I'll give them that.)

I know, however, how to spin him to shut the door on the old continuity and open a new beginning which doesn't make him "not" Moon Knight, and doesn't remove his past--just clarifies it to a modern audience to something they might understand. Both were inspired by the Shadow; Batman a bit by the Lamont Cranston identity of a rich playboy, Moon Knight by the "I've more than one secret identity."

Oh, he'd still be strange, in fact, a bit stranger than he has been lately (which I've mostly enjoyed.) But the multiple identities/DID elements would be more than "the moon makes you crazy," type cyclical concept, which is slightly post-dates Khonshu's time and people's ideas of the moon a lot.


give him multiple personality disorder tied to the phases of the Moon...
 
give him multiple personality disorder tied to the phases of the Moon...

Khonshu has many titles to draw on to shape Moon Knight; From Wikipedia; Khonsu's name reflects the fact that the Moon travels across the night sky, for it means "traveler", and also had the titles "Embracer", "Pathfinder", and "Defender", as he was thought to watch over those who travel at night. As the god of light in the night, Khonsu was invoked to protect against wild animals, and aid with healing. It was said that when Khonsu caused the crescent moon to shine, women conceived, cattle became fertile, and all nostrils and every throat was filled with fresh air.

Plus, well in Marvel; afterlives are complicated. Especially when we can add in other Egyptian elements. What if on the scales of judgment, a heart was not Heavier than the Feather, or Lighter? But balanced? What if Khonshu asked and intervened, and thus hung onto the Khet (body, of course mummified) of a person but passed on some portion the Sah -"spiritual body", Ren - "name, identity", Ba - "personality", Ka - "double", Ib - "heart", and Shut - "shadow"? To another Khet, a living Khet, and granted their Sekhem or the "power, form" to that person? (Not sure yet where the Ahk goes, still researching) What if the Moon Knight, was not a single soul? But Marc Spector the Defender, who carried bits of the souls of others who existed before? Each bit, part of the Moon Knight, with Marc dominant, but able to use their pasts? memories? personalities? Tools for passing in all sorts of social/moral paths in a situation as needed for cover.

He wouldn't change shape, but for all purposes otherwise, he could /be/ another person for his needs--sure they each waxed and waned, so he was more about patience, planning, and more.

What if he dealt with crimes, no one else did? Those tied to cults/the occult? Sure he'll take on gangs, smaller superpowered foes, but he's the guy who finds out what cult is trying to summon Shuma-Gorath and beats them down before they do.

Dr. Strange is more "show up and do something about it if powerful wizards are involved, or /after/ S-G shows up. Not your small ordinary people who can do bad things cult-breaker.

As Pathfinder, he'd find lost souls, guide them to their afterlives, wherever that is for them.

As Defender, he protects those from crimes he is uniquely suited to deal with.


I imagine Moon Knight staring at a building, Spider-man dropping behind him.

Spider-Man: "You alright Moonie?" he asks

Moon Knight: "I'm not crazy, just waiting..."

Spidey: "For what?"

Moon Knight launches grapple and swings down with a quiet "For her.."

Spidey stares where he went, and shakes his head "He's crazy." he utters as he sees nothing but Moon Knight

MK returns to the same rooftop holding a clay stopper bottle, obviously with Egyptian hieroglyphics, obscured, but glowing steam is leaking out.

Spidey: "Moonie, are you alright?"

MK: "Yes, just watch."

Spider-Man scratches his head, "You know this worries me...are you okay?" (He obviously can't see the glow.)

MK Paints a near-perfect ankh on the roof (huge) as the moon comes over the building it DOES glow where Spider-man sees and steps back

Spidey: "I suspect this is dangerous! Is this magic? That's dangerous stuff we should talk too.." (no danger sense)

MK Cuts him off: "Wait."

MK sets the bottle in the middle of the ankh.

It glows visibly brighter and MK opens the clay bottle, letting out the smoke, which forms an obviously pregnant woman's ghost, under the moonlight

Spider-Man: "Moon Knight, she's she's....."

MK: "She can't see or hear you, sadly."

MK: "It's alright Ms. Graham, I know you were hurt, I know you feel guilt over what you've done but it's time to go."

Ms. Graham's Ghost touches her belly. "My baby?" she drips ghostly tears.

MK: "She's gone ahead, she's waiting for you. It wasn't your fault.. it's time.." he says reassuringly.

Ms. Graham's Ghost: "She's there?"

MK: "Yes and loves you." He gestures and a glowing door opens before her and a figure steps out--indistinct.

Ghost and Figure step in, the figure says something, but only MK hears it

Then the door, ankh, everything but the bottle vanishes. MK picks it up and secrets it wherever he keeps all that gear.

Spider-Man: "Will she be alright?"

MK: "Yes, she will, she will go on and be with her daughter."

Spider-Man: ...

MK: "I'm not crazy. I know most of you think I am, Peter.:
Spider-Man: "Pe..? You know my name."

MK lets that sink in and nods, "I can just see things, others don't, or won't and there is more than just me here." MK touches his head and chest.

MK: "Your uncle said he was proud of you." He gestures to where the figure stood.

Spider-Man sobs: "Uncle Ben, He was HERE! And you!"

MK: "He's not allowed to talk to the living, Peter. "

Spider-Man: "But you..'

MK: "There is more than me, here." he repeats then shoots a line and swings away.

MK isn't truly suffering DID, he has multiple minds/souls and personalities but not crazy. He's 's built that way for a reason. He's a host for the others who are Pathfinders, Seekers, and more.

Steven Grant died in the early '30s assassinated for control of his copper mines, he paid his workers a fair wage for African people at the time--comparable to American wages. Some didn't like that. So they tried to end it.

Now somehow, the wealth and mines remain owned by his great-grandson and namesake, Peter Grant, who is also known as Marc Spector.

Because of Khonshu and his cult (who preserved the body in Africa.)

Lockley? Another soul, '70's cabbie, knew the right people and places to be to get what he needed to know from the street, still knows the moves. Killed in an alley, body cared for by the cult of Khonshu. (and so on, as needed forward and back.)

At least one for each phase of the moon, all with different things they know and thus Marc Spector can use, and /be/ them for all purposes but appearance. He has Spector's physical skills as a martial artist, mercenary, and such. Boosted by Khonshu. Those souls are stronger when their moons are present, day or night (since the Moon does appear in the daytime sky, so long as it is on the horizon it empowers him.)

He knows he's Spector, but he also knows HE's all the others in spirit. :grin: Of course, he'd look crazy from the outside, but it is way way more complex than that. He's got a mantle on his shoulders, and the weight of souls he bears. He's still human (though mystic and slightly enhanced) He still has to deal with those struggles, and timing, and patience, and staying /sane/ with all that inside and hanging on to him, plus occasionally have a bit of normal human life. Because it's about making the balance shift for all those hearts.
 
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I didn’t mind Hawkeye using a costume closer to that if the films, for instance. Some other stuff. Plenty of bad examples of that kind of thing, though.

It could be worse.

1215217-avengers109_3.jpg


Bad ideas in comics are as old as comics.
 
I think the real problem is that the focus of comics has shifted from creating to perpeptuating.
Comics, Film Series, Video Game Studios - anything creative you can possibly think of that was great enough to become a Brand has been absolutely destroyed by the same thing - megacorporate ownership, which inevitably comes with mega corporate management.

The only things worth anything are when the managers let up and let the creatives work.
 
The '87 to '91 Claremont X-Men are what I think of as "my" X-Men. I know Claremont started writing them earlier, but '87 is when I started reading them. Not saying there haven't been good X-Men comics post-'91, just that I haven't read enough of them to say much about them.

When I first got Marvel Unlimited, I was excited to read X-Men from the very beginning. I gave up after about 6 issues because those '60s X-Men comics are so bad.
 
What if he dealt with crimes, no one else did?


I don't think Marvel has any characters specifically concerned with ghosts/putting to rest the spirits of the dead with unfinished business...
 
Unlike some of the other titles they were working on, I don't think either Stan or Jack were that heavily emotionally invested in the X-Men. As a result, they seemed to be just making stuff up as they went along (even more so than usual), and just throwing stuff against the wall to see what stuck. I think that's why you get stuff like Beast talking in mono-syllables, and then suddenly becoming a super genius without any explanation, or Professor X silently being in love with Jean Grey, until they realize, no, wait, that's creepy, let's never mention this again.
 
Goddammit, you just made me remember Onslaught. I'm not going to forgve you all afternoon...
Meh, Onslaught was amateur hour compared to the Xavier-related WTFness we got in the X-Men/Micronauts mini-series a decade earlier.
 
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Honestly, reading through old X-Men comics again (I started again in the 60s and am currently in the late 70s): How anyone could ever think of Xavier as anything other than an egotistical asshole... Like it's what he has been from the beginning.

Dude is honestly just so up his own ass 99% of the time.
 
I was never really big into the X-Men but when X-Factor came out with Walt Simonson I bought those a lot. Loved the original team in those.

The Larry Hama Wolverine series I enjoyed a lot, especially with the early Marc Silvestri art.

Excalibur was always my favourite x-title though, even if it came late, and fell apart faster than the others.

But hey, at least we got an actual ending!
 
Meh, Onslaught was amateur hour compared to the Xavier-related WTFness we got in the X-Men/Micronauts mini-series a decade and a half earlier.

I think Ultimate Xavier was pretty f-ed up with some of the shit he did.
 
Honestly, reading through old X-Men comics again (I started again in the 60s and am currently in the late 70s): How anyone could ever think of Xavier as anything other than an egotistical asshole... Like it's what he has been from the beginning.

Dude is honestly just so up his own ass 99% of the time.


I actually thought that the more recent X-men films did a good job of conveying this - a character who had high ideals, but was a disconnected member of the elite who, despite being able to read thoughts, was completely emotionally disconnected from his "students". He saw nothing wrong with forming children under his care into a paramilitary strike force to pursue his political ends.
 
The best thing about the MCU is that they are using real-time (well, up until Endgame anyway with it being 2023).

The biggest problem I had with Marvel and DC in the past 20 years is that the people in charge (Quesada, Didio, Johns) have been actively hostile to everything I enjoy about superhero stories. No legacies? No families? Constantly rebooting your continuity back to circa-1975 (give or take for certain characters)? You've deliberately created a giant rut of dead-end storytelling that you try to shock back to life with mega-events which are instantly forgotten and rendered meaningless.

The Young Justice TV show is a great example of what you can do when you DON'T repeatedly shoot yourself in the foot like this.
 
I actually thought that the more recent X-men films did a good job of conveying this - a character who had high ideals, but was a disconnected member of the elite who, despite being able to read thoughts, was completely emtionally disconnected from his "students". He saw nothing wrong with forming children under his care into a paramilitary strike force to pursue his political ends.

Yeah, McAvoy's Xavier and Fassbender's Magneto were the best thing about First Class/Days of Future Past/Apocalypse. (Unfortunately the movies kind of had issues outside of that. First Class was fine, Days of Future Past was... OK though I had problems with it. Apocalypse is just straight up bad).

Xavier is just kind of an asshole. He thinks he always knows best, and takes no advice from anyone, and if he thinks that someone will disagree with him, he just won't tell them the truth.
 
Fassbender is maybe the best thing about cinema period in the last decade, from X to Aliens. I kinda hope he gets ported over to the MCU, or even recast in another role (Dr. Doom?)

His MacBeth was one of the pure joys in my life of the last few years. I could practically watch that film on repeat 24/7
 
I like when Xavier is an arrogant know it all. I prefer that kind of flaw to any of the weird creepy stuff they've done at times. I want him to be a good guy, but a good guy that it's sometimes hard to root for.

I like the current take, where he's very removed and almost alien. His motives seem good, but his methods maybe less so, and his view of himself and the rest of mutantkind are kind of out there.
 
Also, you know, trying to place how old Xavier was supposed to be, like it seems like he is supposed to be like, 40s or so at the beginning in the 60s run, but paying attention to other stuff he talks about (like his parents job, etc), I feel like he was only in his 30s during the original run.
 
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The first Batman / TMNT miniseries was really good. The page where Michelangelo makes the pro and con list for Batman is so funny.

The third one is pretty amazing, too, where they have to disentangle their backstories to remember their actual identities. Mostly on the Batman side, where you seem him becoming Batman as he puts the pieces of his life back together.
 
Batman’s origin is probably my favorite in all of comics. Is it still canon that while he was brooding about his war on crime in his father’s study, a bat flew in through an open window and landed on a bust of his father? I thought that was great stuff.
 
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