Moderation Criticism

Endless Flight

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I’m leaving work for home and I’m going to do a thorough post when I get home but the gist is this:

Any criticism about how we moderate the Pub goes in this forum. If it comes up in a thread outside this forum (Site and Community) and we see it, you will be told to bring it to this forum. If it continues, a thread ban is the next step. Hopefully no one pushes it past that. We’ve noticed an uptick in people bringing it up in threads where it frankly should not be brought up. This is the only thread drift that’s not really going to be tolerated any more.

edited for clarity
 
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Endless Flight

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I’m also going to be amending the rules page this weekend to put our few rules and guidelines in “official” format.
 

Stevethulhu

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Treating the threat represented by geese with all seriousness is good. As is 95% of the moderation on this forum.

That said, a moderator shouldn't be posting responses like this:


Or putting himself in a position where posts like this are being made about him:


And this is unacceptable:


Seriously, moderating yourself is ok on this site? This is why I've all but ghosted this place.
 

TristramEvans

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So, your only example of me "moderating myself" is when I moved a conversation from one forum to anothet after the poster had ragequit the forum following their meltdown? Something done specifically to provide an opportunity for posters to voice their complaints about moderation?

welp...okay.
 
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The Butcher

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@TristramEvans are you all right, man?

As an outside observer, you did come across as quite a bit testy with @Dumarest on the Dune thread. (And God knows I don’t always laugh at his jokes in, but I usually just scroll by.)

Regarding your tussle with @Stevethulhu I initially thought it was a bit of a cheap shot, to bring up your mod status, but upon further reflection I feel he might be on to something here. Allow me to try and articulate.

Being a mod is a position of power.

Sure, in the grand scheme of things it’s a tiny sliver of power. But it’s power nonetheless, and this power that you (and Endless, and Baulderstone, and Black Leaf) exert — thanklessly, and for free, and I do not wish to imply that I’d do it any better — means your words carry a different weight than that of the regular poster.

And I know it sucks to say that — I feel bad typing it myself — because we really have no control over what people might think of us, despite our best intentions, but it might not behoove you to display a certain level of aggressiveness in your posting.

Once we take up a position of power, however petty (and I’m speaking from personal RL experience here) we are inevitably held to a higher standard in many things.

We could do the “mod voice in a different color” thing; didn’t work out great for the other site, and invites unfortunate comparisons, but it may be sufficient for the issue at hand.

But to be honest, I still believe a personal commitment to non-escalation trumps formal rulings, in terms of effectiveness. I know it’s not easy, and I, too, let myself slip from time to time (as you guys know well). But we gotta do what we gotta do — take a breath, scroll by, and maybe even catch a break from the keyboard from time to time. Have a cup of tea, a beer, a smoke, sleep on it, whatever.

Last but not least, I am grateful we get to debate moderation issues here without getting called names, dismissed outright or banned as a matter of principle.

I really do hope everything is all right with everyone involved. My offer stands — anyone wanna vent, hit me up; PM, status board, or even on Discord. Hell, I’ll field a Discord voice call, depending on time of the day.

Take care, everyone.
 

Fenris-77

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Taking a deep breath and some time to consider makes a world of difference. I know from personal experience (as the bad guy) how easy it is to respond and escalate a situation when the response comes in the heat of the moment. I tend to be sarcastic and dismissive in those situations and it never helps. I do appreciate that moderation issues are discussed here in an open and non-confrontational way, and that is one of the many reasons my post count has shifted here from other sites since I signed on.
 

Black Leaf

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That said, a moderator shouldn't be posting responses like this:

That's one of those things where I think your complaint is about Tristam as a poster, not as a moderator. In fact his moderator status feels entirely irrelevant here.

And there is nothing stopping people putting in complaints about moderators when they're acting as posters in the same way you would anyone else.

Ok, it gets a bit complicated if your complaint is about Endless because he has the final word.

On a more general point, do we need to discuss shitposting/memes on here in general? I know that at least a few people have grumbled about the amount of tangents on here before, but we've traditionally taken a very light approach to it.

[quote[Or putting himself in a position where posts like this are being made about him:

[/quote]

I don't think people can be held responsible for posts other people make about them. That feels like a can of worms best left unopened.

And this is unacceptable:


Seriously, moderating yourself is ok on this site? This is why I've all but ghosted this place.
This obviously is a complaint about moderation specifically.

For the record, in the thread in question I'd have made exactly the same call. Without it that thread was about to veer into a discussion of moderation that drowned out the original topic entirely.

If people feel that mods should avoid moderating threads they've been heavily involved in I think that's worth discussing and would be interested in how other people feel about it.

But it can't be a hard and fast rule, just a guideline.

The reason I say that is this:

Think of the most antagonistic poster this site has ever dealt with. I suspect most of us are thinking of the same now banned person.

If someone was the only mod online, there's no way that having a policy that if they'd clashed with him in a thread they had to stand back from moderation would have been a good idea.
 

Baeraad

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On a more general point, do we need to discuss shitposting/memes on here in general? I know that at least a few people have grumbled about the amount of tangents on here before, but we've traditionally taken a very light approach to it.
If that's how you'd like to put it, sure. Let's have that discussion.

Because when I first signed on here, I was told there were only two rules - no politics, and don't be a jerk. And that led to everyone being on their best behaviour, including me. But lately that seems to have shifted to "no politics, and anyone has to be allowed to be a jerk if that's what they feel is their authentic self." I am not happy with this development. Trust me, none of you want to see my authentic self, and I try to respect that!

I don't think that's something we can fix with more moderation or better moderation, though. It used to work by social contract - anyone who was a jerk got told by everyone around to knock it off. Now it gets turned into a moderation issue and then dismissed because no explicit rules were broken. If we want to break this trend, we're going to need to get that social contract back somehow.
 

Tommy Brownell

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On a more general point, do we need to discuss shitposting/memes on here in general? I know that at least a few people have grumbled about the amount of tangents on here before, but we've traditionally taken a very light approach to it.
I think the tangents are fine. Sometimes a thread drifts.

But the memecrapping is a big part of the reason I check out of most threads pretty fast.
 

Bunch

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Sometimes a joke and a thread crap can be easily confused.

Is it so hard to say "sorry" instead of escalate when a joke is received wrong? I mean we don't do politics here so literally nothing we talk about (outside personal issues) is life or death or so serious. If someone drops a meme that you think is a shitpost we all have options to deal with it. Ignore it is the easiest. No reward means less reason for someone to do it in the future. Confront it honestly but calmly. "Hey this isn't come across as funny to me. Can you please stop it." Hopefully should work.

From my experience what never works is " You're a jackass and here's ten points on how you are!"
 

Giganotosaurus

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I gotta say that the only time I've really noticed memecrapping is when folks started dominating the thread with some stupid argument about one small thing the thread covers.
Frankly I don't mind it 'cause at least there's still something fun to look at while on the thread, instead of 2 groups arguing over the same old argument that neither of them will budge on and will lead no where.
 

Séadna

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I know it’s not easy, and I, too, let myself slip from time to time (as you guys know well). But we gotta do what we gotta do — take a breath, scroll by, and maybe even catch a break from the keyboard from time to time. Have a cup of tea, a beer, a smoke, sleep on it, whatever.
I know it's not always applicable, but in general this is pretty good advice. There's been three or four posts here that pissed me off at the time, but I left it a week or so each time and when I read over them I genuinely had no idea what even annoyed me the first time. I must have been annoyed or tired anyway and read the post wrong.
 

Faylar

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We are all dealing with crap right now. I' ve no doubt that many are past their ability to cope.
Personally, i'm exhausted and inclined to fight instead of discuss, so I dont post much anywhere right now.
We all need to be less hard on each ither and more forgiving of transgressions.
I think, still, that being able to block someone... even a mod... should be a thing. I saw a modbot kicking around a while ago. Let That be the voice of moderation and for induviduals who will mpst likely never get along (Steve and Tristram in this case) let them block each other.
 

Gringnr

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I ran a forum for years. Here's some free advice based on my successes and my failures. It's worth exactly what you paid for it. Also, I used to manage restaurants. But, really, most of what worked in either venture was stuff I learned from parenting classes I took long before I had a kid. If that sounds snarky or condescending, it's isn't meant that way. Its just the truth.


Mods:

-Make sure the rules are clear and accessible. For your sake, as well as that of the users. That way, everyone knows what is expected of them, and you know that they know. If the rules are unclear, or arbitrary, it will cause trouble for you. Its just a matter of time.

-There's an old management axiom: It's far easier to start off strict and loosen up, than to start off loose and try to get more strict. This is an axiom for a reason. Once a forum's culture is established, it's nearly impossible to change it, especially if the new changes are more restrictive, even by a slight margin.

-Dont fall into the trap of explaining yourself to your users. Sounds dickish, I know. If the rules are clear and unequivocal, they will speak for themselves. If someone is trying to goad you into defending the rules, don't fall for it. The rules should be clear enough to speak for themselves, and if someone needs to be reminded of a rule, simply repeat the rule. If they start trying to make it into a conversation, simply repeat the rule until they give up. Its not a conversation. You own the forum, or are tasked with enforcing the rules. So, allow the rules to speak for themselves.

-Dont be afraid to remind people who expect you to change the forum for them that there is a big ol' deep and wide internet out there, and they are free to find another board that better suits them. If this sounds shitty, know that it's better to lose one dissatisfied customer than to let them stick around and ruin the experience for those customers who are currently satisfied.

-Like a brick and mortar business, this is private property. No one has any rights here beyond what is guaranteed by the law, and what ownership and management allow. Period.

One thing I never lost sight of, even when a customer interaction got heated, is that I was in charge of the restaurant. If a customer had a legitimate complaint (or even a dumb one that would cost us little or nothing to satisfy for the sake of keeping them happy), I would always do my best to satisfy them. But I never gave up control. I was being paid to manage. Not to give control over to the first person that raised their voice.


I'm not too proud to admit that my forum was eventually destroyed by my failure to adhere to some of the above. In am attempt to be "fair and even-handed", I allowed the amplification of the voices that least deserved it, and the end result was that many of the best users were driven away, and those who remained were the fucking worst.

At the end of the day, why listen to the type of people who would complain about free shit? Its your forum, make it what you want. No one is forced to post here, and if they can't find a suitable forum on all of the web, the problem might just be them. Common denominator and all that.

Of course, I have also considered the possibility that I'm probably a huge asshole.
 
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Baulderstone

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To put things in context, an hour before Tristram posted this video in response to Dumarest in the Dune thread, Dumarest made this meme reply to Tristram in the Aliens RPG thread. And mockingly dismissive posts of others' opinions are not that rare a thing for Dumarest. I have no problem with less snark on the forum. I'm just pointing out that Dumarest isn't innocent here.

If there is action to be taken here, it involves both of them.
 

Black Leaf

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To put things in context, an hour before Tristram posted this video in response to Dumarest in the Dune thread, Dumarest made this meme reply to Tristram in the Aliens RPG thread. And mockingly dismissive posts of others' opinions are not that rare a thing for Dumarest. I have no problem with less snark on the forum. I'm just pointing out that Dumarest isn't innocent here.

If there is action to be taken here, it involves both of them.
This brings up a wider point. It would certainly be entirely feasible for snark to be moderated more heavily. But while we'd hardly go full big purple, it would still be a much heavier level of moderation than has been the case up to now. It's not that much of a jump from there to stuff like topic bans or insisting people mutually put each other on ignore. As opposed to the current situation where people are generally left to sort that out themselves unless things get really out of hand. Which doesn't necessarily mean people aren't still in favour of that. But it needs recognising that we're talking about quite a big shift in board culture if that was implemented.
 

Baulderstone

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I ran a forum for years. Here's some free advice based on my successes and my failures. It's worth exactly what you paid for it. Also, I used to manage restaurants. But, really, most of what worked in either venture was stuff I learned from parenting classes I took long before I had a kid. If that sounds snarky or condescending, it's isn't meant that way. Its just the truth.


Mods:

-Make sure the rules are clear and accessible. For your sake, as well as that of the users. That way, everyone knows what is expected of them, and you know that they know. If the rules are unclear, or arbitrary, it will cause trouble for you. Its just a matter of time.

-There's an old management axiom: It's far easier to start off strict and loosen up, than to start off loose and try to get more strict. This is an axiom for a reason. Once a forum's culture is established, it's nearly impossible to change it, especially if the new changes are more restrictive, even by a slight margin.

-Dont fall into the trap of explaining yourself to your users. Sounds dickish, I know. If the rules are clear and unequivocal, they will speak for themselves. If someone is trying to goad you into defending the rules, don't fall for it. The rules should be clear enough to speak for themselves, and if someone needs to be reminded of a rule, simply repeat the rule. If they start trying to make it into a conversation, simply repeat the rule until they give up. Its not a conversation. You own the forum, or are tasked with enforcing the rules. So, allow the rules to speak for themselves.

-Dont be afraid to remind people who expect you to change the forum for them that there is a big ol' deep and wide internet out there, and they are free to find another board that better suits them. If this sounds shitty, know that it's better to lose one dissatisfied customer than to let them stick around and ruin the experience for those customers who are currently satisfied.

-Like a brick and mortar business, this is private property. No one has any rights here beyond what is guaranteed by the law, and what ownership and management allow. Period.

One thing I never lost sight of, even when a customer interaction got heated, is that I was in charge of the restaurant. If a customer had a legitimate complaint (or even a dumb one that would cost us little or nothing to satisfy for the sake of keeping them happy), I would always do my best to satisfy them. But I never gave up control. I was being paid to manage. Not to give control over to the first person that raised their voice.


I'm not too proud to admit that my forum was eventually destroyed by my failure to adhere to some of the above. In am attempt to be "fair and even-handed", I allowed the amplification of the voices that least deserved it, and the end result was that many of the best users were driven away, and those who remained were the fucking worst.

At the end of the day, why listen to the type of people who would complain about free shit? Its your forum, make it what you want. No one is forced to post here, and if they can't find a suitable forum on all of the web, the problem might just be them. Cool mom denominator and all that.

Of course, I have also considered the possibility that I'm probably a huge asshole.
We've had discussions about this before, prompted by people loudly quitting the forum. Some of them were people that made a meaningful contribution to the forum. It's a shame, but it is my feeling that you can't let yourself be held hostage in those situations. You just have to let people go sometimes.
 

Bunch

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I ran a forum for years. Here's some free advice based on my successes and my failures. It's worth exactly what you paid for it. Also, I used to manage restaurants. But, really, most of what worked in either venture was stuff I learned from parenting classes I took long before I had a kid. If that sounds snarky or condescending, it's isn't meant that way. Its just the truth.


Mods:

-Make sure the rules are clear and accessible. For your sake, as well as that of the users. That way, everyone knows what is expected of them, and you know that they know. If the rules are unclear, or arbitrary, it will cause trouble for you. Its just a matter of time.

-There's an old management axiom: It's far easier to start off strict and loosen up, than to start off loose and try to get more strict. This is an axiom for a reason. Once a forum's culture is established, it's nearly impossible to change it, especially if the new changes are more restrictive, even by a slight margin.

-Dont fall into the trap of explaining yourself to your users. Sounds dickish, I know. If the rules are clear and unequivocal, they will speak for themselves. If someone is trying to goad you into defending the rules, don't fall for it. The rules should be clear enough to speak for themselves, and if someone needs to be reminded of a rule, simply repeat the rule. If they start trying to make it into a conversation, simply repeat the rule until they give up. Its not a conversation. You own the forum, or are tasked with enforcing the rules. So, allow the rules to speak for themselves.

-Dont be afraid to remind people who expect you to change the forum for them that there is a big ol' deep and wide internet out there, and they are free to find another board that better suits them. If this sounds shitty, know that it's better to lose one dissatisfied customer than to let them stick around and ruin the experience for those customers who are currently satisfied.

-Like a brick and mortar business, this is private property. No one has any rights here beyond what is guaranteed by the law, and what ownership and management allow. Period.

One thing I never lost sight of, even when a customer interaction got heated, is that I was in charge of the restaurant. If a customer had a legitimate complaint (or even a dumb one that would cost us little or nothing to satisfy for the sake of keeping them happy), I would always do my best to satisfy them. But I never gave up control. I was being paid to manage. Not to give control over to the first person that raised their voice.


I'm not too proud to admit that my forum was eventually destroyed by my failure to adhere to some of the above. In am attempt to be "fair and even-handed", I allowed the amplification of the voices that least deserved it, and the end result was that many of the best users were driven away, and those who remained were the fucking worst.

At the end of the day, why listen to the type of people who would complain about free shit? Its your forum, make it what you want. No one is forced to post here, and if they can't find a suitable forum on all of the web, the problem might just be them. Cool mom denominator and all that.

Of course, I have also considered the possibility that I'm probably a huge asshole.
This brings up a wider point. It would certainly be entirely feasible for snark to be moderated more heavily. But while we'd hardly go full big purple, it would still be a much heavier level of moderation than has been the case up to now. It's not that much of a jump from there to stuff like topic bans or insisting people mutually put each other on ignore. As opposed to the current situation where people are generally left to sort that out themselves unless things get really out of hand. Which doesn't necessarily mean people aren't still in favour of that. But it needs recognising that we're talking about quite a big shift in board culture if that was implemented.
To my mind we are seeing a subtle shift in culture as it is from "Let's behave like we are in public at a bar." To "Let's behave like we've had maybe a few too many drinks at a bar and it's getting late.".
Some of the self censorship and not taking the bait seems to be dropping and probably along those same lines people might be less diligent about avoiding baiting people. It's not everyone but it's also not just one or two users.
 

Gringnr

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When it came to slap fights, a good rule is: if it doesn't derail the thread, it's fine. If it does derail the thread, mods can clamp down.

If a personal beef is carried to another thread, that's a clampdown as well.

I had set up a subforum in the "garbage dump" area of our forum. People who had beef were advised to post callout threads there, and if the other party didn't show up to fight, they were to let it drop.

Granted that's not the most mature solution.
 
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Nobby-W

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[ . . . ]
I'm not too proud to admit that my forum was eventually destroyed by my failure to adhere to some of the above. In am attempt to be "fair and even-handed", I allowed the amplification of the voices that least deserved it, and the end result was that many of the best users were driven away, and those who remained were the fucking worst.
This ^ ^ ^ ^

If you allow a toxic environment to develop then the only ones who hang around are the toxic ones. It's the same with a work environment - if you pander to the shit-heads the good ones will all leave. I've seen it on more than one project. Put in the wrong manager and all the contractors didn't renew or all the key staff just left and got another job. It's the quickest way to kill an I.T. project.
 

Bunch

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This ^ ^ ^ ^

If you allow a toxic environment to develop then the only ones who hang around are the toxic ones. It's the same with a work environment - if you pander to the shit-heads the good ones will all leave. I've seen it on more than one project. Put in the wrong manager and all the contractors didn't renew or all the key staff just left and got another job.
This is certainly true in a work environment.
 

Black Leaf

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When it came to slap fights, a god rule is: if it doesn't derail the thread, it's fine. If it does derail the thread, mods can clamp down.

If a personal beef is carried to another thread, that's a clampdown as well.

I had set up a subforum in the "garbage dump" area of our forum. People who had beef were advised to post callout threads there, and if the other party didn't show up to fight, they were to let it drop.

Granted that's not the most mature solution.
That has been suggested before and the majority opinion was against it. And by "majority" I mean "it was only supported by me and Z*k". And quite honestly the latter gave me pause to reconsider.
 

FaerieGodfather

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A lot of forums believe that having a separate area of the forum that is exempt from the forum's overall civility requirements is a good way to let people let off steam without damaging the rest of the forum.

Those forums are wrong, stupid, and stupidly wrong. All it does is create bad blood that constantly leaks out all over the rest of the forum.
 

Giganotosaurus

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One should not speak the name of the dark one, it draws his unwanted attention.
 

CRKrueger

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Over time, people are gonna butt heads. The written medium leaves a lot to be desired, and people’s hackles get raised over real or perceived jabs. Everyone’s got their pet peeves, and some people’s peeves lead to inevitable clashes. Cliques form, rivalries are established, friends, enemies and frenemies get made. Because there’s a way to silence people, some will eventually call for silencing.

Welcome to humanity.

The problem with online communication is, two guys can’t go outside to deal with it, or the entire pub can’t beat the crap out of someone and toss them out into the rain to never come back.

The whole “I’m having an argument with Tristam so I’ll cry mod abuse and try to whip up a lynch mob.” Is getting tiring.

People spam memes at everyone and everything. Most of the time it’s funny, but it can be irritating to see nonsense when you’re trying to discuss something. It’s a passive aggressive way to dismissively argue without making a point, but we’ve covered this before.
 

Endless Flight

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I hope that this rule keeps some of that toned down a bit. We don’t take adding rules or guidelines lightly, but I hope and think we agree that this is a good one.
 

Baeraad

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I hope that this rule keeps some of that toned down a bit. We don’t take adding rules or guidelines lightly, but I hope and think we agree that this is a good one.
I seriously doubt it, because you're still trying to apply some kind of bandaid and refusing to admit the real problem. Which is this: @TristramEvans is an asshole.

No, really. He's an asshole. He thinks that he doesn't have to bother with being polite. He thinks that his opinions are the only valid ones and that anyone who disagrees with them deserves to be snidely mocked. This is not some different-but-perfectly-valid personality type. This is called being an asshole. And he's stated, explicitly and in so many words, that he's going to continue being an asshole and that if anyone has a problem with that, tough shit.

And you can wring your hands all you want and say, "well, it always takes two to argue." And yes, it does. Every argument has two people not acting their best. But isn't it funny how often he's one of the two? @TristramEvans argues with one person, and the one person isn't entirely innocent. He argues with a second person, who isn't entirely innocent. He argues with a third person, who isn't entirely innocent. But funnily enough, the first, second and third person seem to be more or less capable of co-existing with each other. At a certain point, you might have to acknowledge the fact that there's a common denominator here.

And no, I don't think he's broken any rules. I'm not sure, because he certainly seems to excel at the venerable asshole art of tip-toeing riiiiiiight up to the edge of doing something objectively wrong but never quite stepping over it so that when someone accuses him of wrong-doing he can sniff that they're crazy and overreacting. But I don't think he's actually, genuinely, misbehaved as a mod. As a human being, good lord yes. But not as a mod.

But there is one issue, and that's that as a mod, those of us who are fed up with his shit can't block him. And he's in every thread there is. If you can't stand @TristramEvans, you can't stand the rpgpub. And more and more people are going to accept that fact and just drift away, until you're left with only the sort of people who are too emotionally stunted to have their feelings hurt. And then you will have effectively reinvented the RPGsite.

Which, if that was your goal, good for you. But I was under the impression that you were aiming a little higher than that.
 
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Faylar

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I seriously doubt it, because you're still trying to apply some kind of bandaid and refusing to admit the real problem. Which is this: @TristramEvans is an asshole.

No, really. He's an asshole. He thinks that he doesn't have to bother with being polite. He thinks that his opinions are the only valid ones and that anyone who disagrees with them deserves to be snidely mocked. This is not some different-but-perfectly-valid personality type. This is called being an asshole. And he's stated, explicitly and in so many words, that he's going to continue being an asshole and that if anyone has a problem with that, tough shit.

And you can wring your hands all you want and say, "well, it always takes two to argue." And yes, it does. Every argument has two people not acting their best. But isn't it funny how often he's one of the two? @TristramEvans argues with one person, and the one person isn't entirely innocent. He argues with a second person, who isn't entirely innocent. He argues with a third person, who isn't entirely innocent. But funnily enough, the first, second and third person seem to be more or less capable of co-existing with each other. At a certain point, you might have to acknowledge the fact that there's a common denominator here.

And no, I don't think he's broken any rules. I'm not sure, because he certainly seems to excel at the venerable asshole art of tip-toeing riiiiiiight up to the edge of doing something objectively wrong but never quite stepping over it so that when someone accuses him of wrong-doing he can sniff that they're crazy and overreacting. But I don't think he's actually, genuinely, misbehaved as a mod. As a human being, good lord yes. But not as a mod.

But there is one issue, and that's that as a mod, those of us who are fed up with his shit can't block him. And he's in every thread there is. If you can't stand @TristramEvans, you can't stand the rpgpub. And more and more people are going to accept that fact and just drift away, until you're left with only the sort of people who are too emotionally stunted to have their feelings hurt. And then you will have effectively reinvented the RPGsite.

Which, if that was your goal, good for you. But I was under the impression that you was aiming a little higher than that.
Most of the people I've seen him butt heads with are incredibly abrasive as well Some of which I have told at one time or another to fuck off as well. I don't buy that he is a common denominator, especially when he seems to have a usual set of detractors over and over again.
I agree that people need the ability to block him though, if anything for all of our sake..
Honestly, I think we are all getting tired of this shit and you all should just go to your respective rooms and leave each other the fuck alone. Dirty laundry doesn't always need to be aired in public... it tends to stink up the neighborhood.
 

Faylar

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I hope that this rule keeps some of that toned down a bit. We don’t take adding rules or guidelines lightly, but I hope and think we agree that this is a good one.
Sorry, which rule? I think I missed it.
 
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