Moderation Criticism

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To be clear up front, I say this with no insult or offense intended.

I'm the parent of an autistic child. Involved with a group that works with families of special needs kids. Been in two support groups. Literally never heard "on the spectrum" used as an insult. Now, I have heard some of the rest, like the "autistic screeching" stuff used as an insult, or people just straight out saying in an online argument that someone must be autistic as a way of diminishing their argument...but have experienced zero negative connotations to "on the spectrum". Unless the context made it clear from a post that someone was intentionally using it in a derogatory manner, it would never occur to me that they were intentionally being insulting (and I'm fairly fluent in subtext, even online).

Given that the autistic individuals I have been around, my daughter and some friends included, run a full range of behaviors, functionalities and interactivity, "on the spectrum" has been used in my daily life to literally describe the full spectrum of how autism and related conditions affect their lives.
The only reason I bought up "on the spectrum" as I did was for the sake of clarity. I wasn't accusing anyone of anything. In my experience it is merely a flippant term not an outright insult in the way "autistic" has become. I don't really want to entertain a hierarchy of unpleasantness however.

In respect of the fundamental point, ignoring behaviour. I would say one ought not expect more from the subject than the perpetrator of said behaviour. If you have, for example, a bullied kid in school expecting him to change, which could even be exceptionally difficult to the point of adding to his trauma, while expecting nothing from the bully, then that is an example of reinforcing oppression. That, imo, is unacceptable.
 
You are demanding good behaviour of others while dismissing responsibility for how you react. Thats not how it works.
You cant use provocation as an excuse to dial it to 11 yourself. We learn this as children.
This is in response to a polite request that people stop posting counter productive and distracting memes that spoil discussion
 
So, a while back I was looking at Traveller 5's social interaction chart and a friend of mine who's on the spectrum asked what it was and was then very interested to have a look at it and studied it intently. After a couple minutes I asked, "If only it was that easy eh?" And he vigorously agreed. It's not that easy and in a friendly forum like this we don't want to constantly be on guard for whatever the screeching mobs from any political direction (my politics are UP not left or right damnit) have decided is offensive this week. The bar may be moving but most of us older guys can't "limbo lower now" quite so fast or easily as younger folks.
 
To be clear up front, I say this with no insult or offense intended.

I'm the parent of an autistic child. Involved with a group that works with families of special needs kids. Been in two support groups. Literally never heard "on the spectrum" used as an insult. Now, I have heard some of the rest, like the "autistic screeching" stuff used as an insult, or people just straight out saying in an online argument that someone must be autistic as a way of diminishing their argument...but have experienced zero negative connotations to "on the spectrum". Unless the context made it clear from a post that someone was intentionally using it in a derogatory manner, it would never occur to me that they were intentionally being insulting (and I'm fairly fluent in subtext, even online).

Given that the autistic individuals I have been around, my daughter and some friends included, run a full range of behaviors, functionalities and interactivity, "on the spectrum" has been used in my daily life to literally describe the full spectrum of how autism and related conditions affect their lives.
I think you're probably both right. The term you're using with adults and their kids can get turned to a cruel insult by kids online.

Similar to how I can say check out the tomatoes on that gal and people can probably guess where my eyes are.
 
The bar may be moving but most of us older guys can't "limbo lower now" quite so fast or easily as younger folks.

This is why intent will always be more relevant here than terminology.

Ultimately, we can all tell when someone is intentionally insulting another person. Beyond that, I don't think there's much to worry about.
 
Similar to how I can say check out the tomatoes on that gal and people can probably guess where my eyes are.

Return+of+the+Killer+Tomatoes+-+03.jpg
 
Eh, the only thing that’s happening is the forum is getting older, and people’s shoulders are gathering chips.

People can’t ignore the mods, so what, they can’t ignore you either, so get over yourself already.

You weren’t consulted before someone posted something you don’t like. Construct an argument or go away and find another thread...or hey, here’s a concept, do what everyone else does, and don’t read posts from people who piss you off. These guys are mods, not preschool workers.

I have blowouts with Voros, with Norton, with Silva, it doesn’t stop us from engaging positively in other threads.
 
This is in response to a polite request that people stop posting counter productive and distracting memes that spoil discussion

One thing I learned from experience: You can identify who those people are, because they tend to be pretty consistent, and ignoring them really does nothing to diminish your enjoyment or understanding of a thread, because they added nothing of value in the first place.

I brought up this concern, too. Not to the moderators or expecting moderation, but just as a general gripe to the forum. The prevalence of the shitposting memes (and again, I'm pretty confident in my fluency with subtext, so I can pretty well tell who is being an asshole and derailing things and who is just making a joke) reduces my desire to engage with the forum on any meaningful level.

But also, as noted, I have no sense of humor, either. Not for any reason other than I'm a grouchy old man, though.
 
Complete bullshit man. There is a difference between deliberate offence and taking offence over non offensive things. I am refering to the latter. If you want to split straws on every little thing, go hard, but you are just moving the goal post at that point.
If you want to talk about bad behavior anyway... this is the pot calling the kettle black. You are one of the worst behaved posters on here, and are not one to talk in any case.
So talking about non-offensive things, do you know every term that's offensive to every marginalised group? Because I'm going to bet that you don't, and that's not your fault; there are terms you could legitimately use without realising they're deeply offensive to a particular group. And while many people would be happy to educate you so you can avoid making the same mistake again, given that a member of those groups are used to experiencing those things being purposefully used offensively at them and there are plenty of unpleasant people willing to hide their hatred behind "oh but you should give me the benefit of the doubt!" so it's hard to tell the difference between an attack and a genuine mistake, eventually your comment is going to be the one that pushes them too far, and you might just happen to be the one that they lash out at. That's not your fault, and not really their fault, more the fault of all the people who've purposefully needled them beforehand. You just happen to be in the way; that sucks, but it sucks more for the person who's been victimised.

Looking at individual things in isolation and saying "but it's your fault if you're offended by my comment" completely misses the reality that your comment is not the only one in the world. Like, if I posted a photo, and you said I had suspiciously big hands... okay, fair dos, probably a perfectly innocent comment. But. There are people out there who would use "look at how big her hands are..." offensively - certain hate groups use it and similar as an attack on people like me, for example, because it looks like a mundane statement unless you're in the know, and if I've been taking a lot of abuse from them recently eventually I'll snap because with the best will in the world there's always going to be a limit on how much people can take.

Similar to how I can say check out the tomatoes on that gal and people can probably guess where my eyes are.
I do like a lady with a nice garden that can grow her own produce.
 
This is in response to a polite request that people stop posting counter productive and distracting memes that spoil discussion
I won't post memes when in direct conversation with you (like here) or in threads you start. Same applies to Tommy. (This is me as a poster, it's not something I'd moderate from other people).

What I'm not willing to commit to is never posting memes in interactions with other posters that aren't you, although I don't think I'm one of the more meme heavy people anyway.
 
So talking about non-offensive things, do you know every term that's offensive to every marginalised group? Because I'm going to bet that you don't, and that's not your fault; there are terms you could legitimately use without realising they're deeply offensive to a particular group. And while many people would be happy to educate you so you can avoid making the same mistake again, given that a member of those groups are used to experiencing those things being purposefully used offensively at them and there are plenty of unpleasant people willing to hide their hatred behind "oh but you should give me the benefit of the doubt!" so it's hard to tell the difference between an attack and a genuine mistake, eventually your comment is going to be the one that pushes them too far, and you might just happen to be the one that they lash out at. That's not your fault, and not really their fault, more the fault of all the people who've purposefully needled them beforehand. You just happen to be in the way; that sucks, but it sucks more for the person who's been victimised.

Looking at individual things in isolation and saying "but it's your fault if you're offended by my comment" completely misses the reality that your comment is not the only one in the world. Like, if I posted a photo, and you said I had suspiciously big hands... okay, fair dos, probably a perfectly innocent comment. But. There are people out there who would use "look at how big her hands are..." offensively - certain hate groups use it and similar as an attack on people like me, for example, because it looks like a mundane statement unless you're in the know, and if I've been taking a lot of abuse from them recently eventually I'll snap because with the best will in the world there's always going to be a limit on how much people can take.


I do like a lady with a nice garden that can grow her own produce.

Is discussing offending or being offensive political or not. You’re already talking about microaggressions without using the term, and while that may be reality for you, it sure isn’t for everyone.
 
Speaking as someone on the spectrum, I’m gonna have to dissent to the claims saying that it’s a bad thing to say :tongue:
 
To be clear up front, I say this with no insult or offense intended.

I'm the parent of an autistic child. Involved with a group that works with families of special needs kids. Been in two support groups. Literally never heard "on the spectrum" used as an insult.
My impression is that it mainly makes an appearance in putdowns to technical staff working in IT and similar roles, or in online flamewars. Basically folks who identify as neurotypical using it as a term of condescension.

My #1 spawn is autistic, with severe language impairment.
 
Is discussing offending or being offensive political or not. You’re already talking about microaggressions without using the term, and while that may be reality for you, it sure isn’t for everyone.
Yes, I wanted to be explicit rather than use jargon which not everybody may necessarily know or may react adversely to. Personally I don't consider "you may accidentally say something offensive to someone" to be a political statement, but I would consider a response along the lines of "well how is that my fault I can't be expected to know everything it's political correctness gone mad" to be political; apologise, learn, move on. I used myself as a specific example so as to try not to cause offense to anyone else with it.

And... really? There's nothing that could set you off? I don't believe that's true for anyone; and while I value reading your posts I'd probably place you on the list of shorter fuses on the forum.

My impression is that it mainly makes an appearance in putdowns to technical staff working in IT and similar roles, or in online flamewars. Basically folks who identify as neurotypical using it as a term of condescension.

My #1 spawn is autistic, with severe language impairment.
Yes, context matters. But, again, context is hard to read online.
 
So talking about non-offensive things, do you know every term that's offensive to every marginalised group? Because I'm going to bet that you don't, and that's not your fault; there are terms you could legitimately use without realising they're deeply offensive to a particular group. And while many people would be happy to educate you so you can avoid making the same mistake again, given that a member of those groups are used to experiencing those things being purposefully used offensively at them and there are plenty of unpleasant people willing to hide their hatred behind "oh but you should give me the benefit of the doubt!" so it's hard to tell the difference between an attack and a genuine mistake, eventually your comment is going to be the one that pushes them too far, and you might just happen to be the one that they lash out at. That's not your fault, and not really their fault, more the fault of all the people who've purposefully needled them beforehand. You just happen to be in the way; that sucks, but it sucks more for the person who's been victimised.

Looking at individual things in isolation and saying "but it's your fault if you're offended by my comment" completely misses the reality that your comment is not the only one in the world. Like, if I posted a photo, and you said I had suspiciously big hands... okay, fair dos, probably a perfectly innocent comment. But. There are people out there who would use "look at how big her hands are..." offensively - certain hate groups use it and similar as an attack on people like me, for example, because it looks like a mundane statement unless you're in the know, and if I've been taking a lot of abuse from them recently eventually I'll snap because with the best will in the world there's always going to be a limit on how much people can take.

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but it's about context, as you say. If anyone thinks the mods are going to let people chuck around racial slurs under the guise of "non politics" they'll be quickly disabused of the notion. And I suspect that's something the board as a whole would agree with.

It's always going to be on a case by case basic, not hard and fast rules. It can neither be "we will never listen if people find something offensive" or "taking offense always wins out". And I'm afraid that one of the things that offers context on this is the general posting style of the poster in question. You aren't generally aggressive in your posting, which makes me more inclined to take you seriously than someone who complains about being offended but seems to have no issue offending anyone else.

Is discussing offending or being offensive political or not. You’re already talking about microaggressions without using the term, and while that may be reality for you, it sure isn’t for everyone.

No although I accept it's close enough to stay a bit careful round. Offense is not necessarily political in nature. If someone calls me a paedophile I'll be offended, but it's not a political question.
 
As I always have, I appreciate TristramEvans TristramEvans, his viewpoints, and how much he cares about the Pub. There’s a reason he was the first soul I talked to about starting this place. I thought he was a straight shooter and fair when I interacted with him elsewhere. If he would have asked me to de-mod him, I would have begged and pleaded for him to change his mind.

You guys (and you know who you are ) don’t want us to mod more and we don’t want to mod more. He’s right, be careful what you wish for. The day that I have to use red mod text is the day I die a little inside. I don’t want to ban people because they “might not be a good fit” for the Pub.
And again we see Endless showing his envy of the jellyfish's spine.

You do realize your first soul called out 4 posters and blamed them. No acknowledgement of his contributions to the issues, just blame and justification.
When your first souls says " I don't randomly go around attacking or deriding any posters. This is, from my PoV, an earned response." What earned the response? Only Your first soul knows.

Your first soul says "However, this comes with an additional big change, in my expectations of the standards of others' interactions. Instead of accepting the behaviour of other posters and interacting on their level, I will instead be expecting them to match my standards. " Um what happened to the forum rules?

This is why this place is never going to anything more than a handful of dudes talking smack with each other and soapboxing old school play.
 
And again we see Endless showing his envy of the jellyfish's spine.

You do realize your first soul called out 4 posters and blamed them. No acknowledgement of his contributions to the issues, just blame and justification.
When your first souls says " I don't randomly go around attacking or deriding any posters. This is, from my PoV, an earned response." What earned the response? Only Your first soul knows.

Your first soul says "However, this comes with an additional big change, in my expectations of the standards of others' interactions. Instead of accepting the behaviour of other posters and interacting on their level, I will instead be expecting them to match my standards. " Um what happened to the forum rules?

This is why this place is never going to anything more than a handful of dudes talking smack with each other and soapboxing old school play.
Oh, good. So there’s no reason for you to be here then. Another reason never to change. :devil:
 
So talking about non-offensive things, do you know every term that's offensive to every marginalised group? Because I'm going to bet that you don't, and that's not your fault; there are terms you could legitimately use without realising they're deeply offensive to a particular group. And while many people would be happy to educate you so you can avoid making the same mistake again, given that a member of those groups are used to experiencing those things being purposefully used offensively at them and there are plenty of unpleasant people willing to hide their hatred behind "oh but you should give me the benefit of the doubt!" so it's hard to tell the difference between an attack and a genuine mistake, eventually your comment is going to be the one that pushes them too far, and you might just happen to be the one that they lash out at. That's not your fault, and not really their fault, more the fault of all the people who've purposefully needled them beforehand. You just happen to be in the way; that sucks, but it sucks more for the person who's been victimised.

Looking at individual things in isolation and saying "but it's your fault if you're offended by my comment" completely misses the reality that your comment is not the only one in the world. Like, if I posted a photo, and you said I had suspiciously big hands... okay, fair dos, probably a perfectly innocent comment. But. There are people out there who would use "look at how big her hands are..." offensively - certain hate groups use it and similar as an attack on people like me, for example, because it looks like a mundane statement unless you're in the know, and if I've been taking a lot of abuse from them recently eventually I'll snap because with the best will in the world there's always going to be a limit on how much people can take.


I do like a lady with a nice garden that can grow her own produce.
If I tell you that you cant have a cookie so you then take offence to that and have a raging temper tantrum over it... who is in the wrong here?
It doesn't matter if you cant have the cookie because I don't have one to give or that I am being a greedy bastard and just being a douche.
It doesn't matter if I am the 5th person to deny you a cookie either. You are having a tantrum and are being a jerk.

This is personal accountability to not blow up over the cookie slight, perceived or otherwise.
You could still negotiate for the cookie or at least find out why it is being denied in the first place.
It is also personal accountability to not tease someone over not getting said cookie, or holding the cookie over your head out of reach... this would obviously make you a jerk as well.

There are levels to this and at EVERY STEP it is still YOUR responsibility on how YOU act.

Period.
 
This is why this place is never going to anything more than a handful of dudes talking smack with each other and soapboxing old school play.
Why am I not surprised that it always goes back to those dammed old games?
 
And again we see Endless showing his envy of the jellyfish's spine.

You do realize your first soul called out 4 posters and blamed them. No acknowledgement of his contributions to the issues, just blame and justification.
When your first souls says " I don't randomly go around attacking or deriding any posters. This is, from my PoV, an earned response." What earned the response? Only Your first soul knows.

Your first soul says "However, this comes with an additional big change, in my expectations of the standards of others' interactions. Instead of accepting the behaviour of other posters and interacting on their level, I will instead be expecting them to match my standards. " Um what happened to the forum rules?

This is why this place is never going to anything more than a handful of dudes talking smack with each other and soapboxing old school play.
Cool story bro. Too bad it's fiction
 
I'm going to try and belatedly weigh in with some thoughts. I've spent the last month dealing with a nephew who has been in and out of hospital for the last month, looking after his brothers while his parents focus on him, so I am a little frayed at the edges. And before this seems like too much of a pity party, one aspect of looking after his brothers involves running marathon D&D sessions for them, so not all is bad. And its not like I've been completely absent from the Pub.

Emphasis mine.

I've stayed out of this discussion, just following with interest as even as I've agreed with statements, they were couched with so much repressed animosity that it was hard to separate the two. That's a different point that is not being addressed- that the veneer of civility is covering a carbuncle of venomous contempt.

But I decided to wade in on this point as you keep doing exactly what you are complaining about. If I say that I take offense to the phrase highlighted above, then does that change your perspective a bit on things? I hate when people use this phrase, because they are thinking it, and just mildly obscuring it, rather than just saying racist, like you said sexist, instead of saying that you shouldn't call women derogatory phrases mildly obscured. I could get up in arms, or, more diplomatically and caring about the tenor of the whole forum, I could just let it pass and realize that you mean well, even if it doesn't come off well to me.

I think this ably illustrates the point being made- sometimes people aren't being intentionally offensive, so your response should be moderated in that vein rather than being all grrr aggressive at any slight given. 'On the spectrum' was not being used as a pejorative in this case, any more than your statement was, so this seems a tempest in a teapot. So it seems that you would have looked at the underlying statements being made rather than hitting this particular point over and over and bludgeoning people over the head with it, if you were at all concerned about the overall environment on the forum. Anything else seems to me to be ill-advised at best, and dishonest at worst. Just food for thought.

You make a good point. One of the biggest mistakes at rpg.net was deciding that intent didn't matter. You needed to follow the letter of the constantly fluctuating, unwritten rules on the word being used to describe something this week or you were guilty. It is indeed tricky to read intent online, but it isn't impossible.

And again we see Endless showing his envy of the jellyfish's spine.

You do realize your first soul called out 4 posters and blamed them. No acknowledgement of his contributions to the issues, just blame and justification.
When your first souls says " I don't randomly go around attacking or deriding any posters. This is, from my PoV, an earned response." What earned the response? Only Your first soul knows.

Your first soul says "However, this comes with an additional big change, in my expectations of the standards of others' interactions. Instead of accepting the behaviour of other posters and interacting on their level, I will instead be expecting them to match my standards. " Um what happened to the forum rules?

This is why this place is never going to anything more than a handful of dudes talking smack with each other and soapboxing old school play.
If I follow, you are accusing Tristram for being snarky and not owning up to it, then closing with a completely off-topic, snarky snipe at people that play old school games.
 
If I follow, you are accusing Tristram for being snarky and not owning up to it, then closing with a completely off-topic, snarky snipe at people that play old school games.

I'm still trying to work out whether my oft stated love for Unknown Armies counts as being an old school grognard these days.
 
And again we see Endless showing his envy of the jellyfish's spine.

You do realize your first soul called out 4 posters and blamed them. No acknowledgement of his contributions to the issues, just blame and justification.
When your first souls says " I don't randomly go around attacking or deriding any posters. This is, from my PoV, an earned response." What earned the response? Only Your first soul knows.

Your first soul says "However, this comes with an additional big change, in my expectations of the standards of others' interactions. Instead of accepting the behaviour of other posters and interacting on their level, I will instead be expecting them to match my standards. " Um what happened to the forum rules?

This is why this place is never going to anything more than a handful of dudes talking smack with each other and soapboxing old school play.

This is exactly the level of discourse that we don't need to tolerate anymore. Consider this a warning.

Make your points without personal attacks, vague insinuations, and hyperbolic snark. And if you don't like it here at The Pub, no one is forcing you to be here.
 
I'm still trying to work out whether my oft stated love for Unknown Armies counts as being an old school grognard these days.
Maybe it always did.

Back before the game came out, I'd just finished reading a playtest version. I told Greg Stolze that it was really cool to see someone doing something fresh with a percentile system. A momentary look of panic crossed his face. "You don't think people will see the system as old-fashioned, do you?"
 
To be perfectly fair, I don’t think it’s the Pub getting bigger that it’s the problem. Look at the names involved. Some of these chips go way back.
I said older, not bigger. True, some of them come from the Site, but as far as I can tell, the three or four “but Tristam’s a mod and was mean to me” crybabies all got their chips here.
 
well, it started with Silva, and Silva's chips originated on the Site, with

50198025161_d2f6da0dc2_o.jpg


I was pretty merciless then, and my reactions to him bringing up mechanics in games related to sex here no doubt opened old wounds
 
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