Moderation Criticisms

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Dammit Viktor

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Past experience makes me hesitant here. Not that I have any complaints. It shouldn't be a thankless task. It's just there was this other site where there are often brown nosing modlickng threads and I've come to dispise the culture around it. Never the less the mods here do deserve some positive reinforcement.

Maybe like that forum, the mods should ban people for participating in the feedback threads, but only for positive feedback.
 

Black Leaf

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Never the less the mods here do deserve some positive reinforcement.
I'll link my Paypal account tomorrow.
Honestly, I can't say I didn't think of that myself, but then I've never been very good at taking compliments in general. I'm more just glad that the posters like it here, as they're the ones who make this place a community.
Heh, yeah, you'll note that my instinctive response to the thread was to take the piss. :p
 

Stan

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Maybe one thing to do is recognize that some threads just run their course and produce only bitterness after ~50-100 posts. Not things like Dank Memes, more like the TSR related threads. The first few posts put information out. Then there's a few posts of pros and cons, maybe some new info. After that, such threads are often to reduced to people yelling repeated arguments while not acknowledging the other viewpoints and dragging out old grievances.

Just lock such threads after a page or two so people can go back to productive threads without getting worked up. I guess my point is to sometimes punish the threads, not the posters.

Maybe we should also recognize that storytelling threads are our Orangatun
 

Lessa

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So, why was my post deleted, and I got banned from the Avatar rpg thread?

Can you replicate here what I said and what infraction clause It pertains to?
 

Lessa

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Also, given that moderator Tristram and I come from a bad history in the past, including an episode where he used of mocking and jokes in bad fath toward me, may I ask to be moderated by another mod?

May I ask for Baulderstone Baulderstone or Black Leaf Black Leaf instead?
 

TristramEvans

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group attack against other posters and moderation criticism in the wrong forum, after several warnings to drop the tangent in the thread

No, you can't ask for another moderator when we aren't interacting.

And you can quit lying about the mocking.

At this point, you need to get over your issues or leave. Doing drive-by dishonest insults periodically isn't something the forum needs to put up with for years.
 

Lessa

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That's just one example of the mocking. Just scroll down to the end of the page, and the start of the subsequent one. Focus on "ridicule".
 

Stumpydave

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No one was ridiculing you but it does look like you were spoiling for a fight.
 

Lessa

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That's just one example of the mocking. Just scroll down to the end of the page, and the start of the subsequent one. Focus on "ridicule".
And here is the very moderator Tristram admitting that he was in bad faith towards me and why...


That's it.

Supposedly due to a passage from another site where I said I like rape in hentai and other forms of fiction (which I do - but only in fiction, I'm a father after all), to which he admits stalking and getting negatively biased against me.

In other words, a moderator admitting he has a grudge on a user.

And a gratuitous one, as I never did anything to the guy until that moment. I never offended him, or insulted him, or disrespect him in any manner. But the guy decided to treat me bad because I like japanese tentacle porn.

If this isn't textbook prejudice, I dont know what it is.
 
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EmperorNorton

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And a gratuitous one, as I never did anything to the guy until that moment. I never offended him, or insulted him, or disrespect him in any manner. But the guy decided to treat me bad because I like japanese tentacle porn.
I'll just be honest here. There are some things you should probably just keep to yourself, and if you don't, you have no one to blame but yourself if people take it weird.

Like, to be honest, if you like that stuff, good for you, matters none to me. But like, talking about it publicly actually is kind of weird.
 

Lessa

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EmperorNorton EmperorNorton ,

Do you also find it weird the kind of fiction containing murder of human beings? If you dont, would you find it fair if I manifested prejudice against you because of it?

Honest, and please dont get offended because I dont have anything against you here, but what you're saying to me about keeping personal tastes or practices hidden only says to me how hypocritical the society you live in, is. I would guess it's a Christian protestant one? I don't come from your culture. Why my behavior should be measured by your scale? As long neither me nor you are practicing, promoting, or condoning the suffering of human beings in real life, nor disrespecting each other, we should deserve respect in equal measure. No matter if one likes tentacle porn and the other Rambo (or hemp, same sex coitus, RPGs, or whatever pastime one enjoys as long it's legal and consensual). Edit: isn't this what anglos call Bigotry, prejudice towards something only because it's "weird"?

Sincere question.
 
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Black Leaf

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EmperorNorton EmperorNorton ,

Do you also find it weird the kind of fiction containing murder of human beings? If you dont, would you find it fair if I manifested prejudice against you because of it?
If someone took great pleasure in detailed descriptions of murder (rather than enjoying it as a plot device), yeah, I'd suggest keeping that to themselves.
Honest, and please dont get offended because I dont have anything against you here, but what you're saying to me about keeping personal tastes or practices hidden only says to me how hypocritical the society you live in, is. I would guess it's a Christian protestant one? I don't come from your culture. Why my behavior should be measured by your scale? As long neither me nor you are practicing, promoting, or condoning the suffering of human beings in real life, nor disrespecting each other, we should deserve respect in equal measure. No matter if one likes tentacle porn and the other Rambo (or hemp, same sex coitus, RPGs, or whatever pastime one enjoys as long it's legal and consensual). Edit: isn't this what anglos call Bigotry, prejudice towards something only because it's "weird"?

Sincere question.

You do not have some kind of divine right to talk about whatever you want wherever you want. There are places to discuss your rape fantasies. This isn't one of them.

That's not, at least from my perspective, something that's up for debate. You don't have to pretend you like it, but it's still the case.
 

Black Leaf

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Also, given that moderator Tristram and I come from a bad history in the past, including an episode where he used of mocking and jokes in bad fath toward me, may I ask to be moderated by another mod?

May I ask for Baulderstone Baulderstone or Black Leaf Black Leaf instead?
Just for the record, I'd have kicked you from that thread earlier and bluntly pointed out that outside a few stated exceptions nobody is obliged to be positive about any RPG (and that your own idiosyncriatic definition of "trolling" as "not saying nice things" isn't the case here).

I also, as a general rule, am not inclined to take reports as seriously from people grandstanding about how they're reporting people as I don't see why there's any good reason you'd make that public apart from as some kind of tactical move to bounce the mods into doing what you want.

Obviously, can't now because it's been resolved, but be careful what you wish for.
 

Lessa

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Just for the record, I'd have kicked you from that thread earlier and bluntly pointed out that outside a few stated exceptions nobody is obliged to be positive about any RPG (and that your own idiosyncriatic definition of "trolling" as "not saying nice things" isn't the case here).

I also, as a general rule, am not inclined to take reports as seriously from people grandstanding about how they're reporting people as I don't see why there's any good reason you'd make that public apart from as some kind of tactical move to bounce the mods into doing what you want.

Obviously, can't now because it's been resolved, but be careful what you wish for.
I would prefer it, honestly. At least you I know is acting unbiased.

That said, I'm done with this line. I already got the moderator in question admitting the prejudice against me and the reason behind it. If it's worth or not, anyone can take their own conclusions.

And If consuming hentai and RPGs with Sex Moves is being "weird", then I'm proud to be weird.

P.S: it wasn't me who brought this subject first, it was the very mod in the pg4 of this very thread. Just so you know.
 

TristramEvans

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That said, I'm done with this line. I already got the moderator in question admitting the prejudice against me and the reason behind it.

No.

I would never "admit" to anything so ridiculous, because I have never moderated you in any way different than anyone else here on the forum.

The recent threadban was completely cut and dry. Endless warned the entire thread twice, and I warned the entire thread again after that. You have no leg to stand on claiming it was anything else.

Your longstanding grudge against me because you dropped into a thread where many others and myself were making fun of a particular game mechanic and you decided to take it personally, as if we were actually talking about you, is based upon either a lack of reading comprehension, extreme narcissism, or some form of delusion where you so self identify with the mechanics of a game you didn't write that you interpret criticism of that game as an attack upon your person.

If you want me to admit that personally I think you're an asshole? Yes, absolutely, you're an asshole. You are incredibly disingenuous, you think your perverted sex fantasies are appropriate conversation for an RPG forum, and you threw a tantrum with a string of personal insults at me the last time you had a melt-down over this nonissue and ragequit the forum.

That is not prejudgement on my part...that is judgement. That is the face you've put forth on this forum and the interactions I've had with you.

But there is not a single instance that you can point to that I moderated you in any way unfairly. If anything, I've let way too much slide. And my patience is spent because you keep insisting on bringing up this falsehood that you were in some way persecuted by me. In all honesty, the opposite is true. You owe me an apology. I don't expect that from you, because based on your behaviour, I have no expectations that you will act reasonable or adult or accept any responsibility for yourself. To the point where, if this was another poster I was responding to, I'd be posting copious evidence in this reply of everything I'm saying, in the assumption that communicating those things as clearly as possible might engender some degree of communication or self-awareness. But the fact you can post links to threads as "proof" of me doing something to you that any reader can clearly see that I am not means such efforts would be a waste of time.

I'm not going to mince words now Silva: I think you should leave. I think this grudge you've been nursing for over a year is clearly not going to get resolved, and you're going to continue to troll. I'm not banning you - if that happens, it will be at the behest of another Mod, but let me be clear that I think that is only a matter of time, and by delaying the inevitable all you are doing is spreading misinformation and misery.

But you want to never be moderated by me? That's really easy. Stop breaking rules. If Endless tells you to change the subject, change the subject. If you're thinking about airing grievances or attacking other posters, think twice. If you find yourself getting angry because a poster is criticizing a game that you like, grow up. Take solace in the fact that I would never in a million years give you the satisfaction of abusing my position as a moderator over someone like you.
 

Dammit Viktor

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This is why I participate in these threads, even when I don't feel like I have a whole lot to really bitch about.

Y'all see this? This is what you can expect if you have a serious concern with how these forums are being moderated. This is how they treat people who disagree with them, who challenge their decisions, and who think their particular pet issue is (or should be) allowed by the rules.

Having been on the receiving end of this recently, I'd like to keep it that way. And I hope everyone seeing this feels comfortable taking up their issues with the moderators, knowing how their concerns are going to be handled.
 

EmperorNorton

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EmperorNorton EmperorNorton ,

Do you also find it weird the kind of fiction containing murder of human beings? If you dont, would you find it fair if I manifested prejudice against you because of it?

Honest, and please dont get offended because I dont have anything against you here, but what you're saying to me about keeping personal tastes or practices hidden only says to me how hypocritical the society you live in, is. I would guess it's a Christian protestant one? I don't come from your culture. Why my behavior should be measured by your scale? As long neither me nor you are practicing, promoting, or condoning the suffering of human beings in real life, nor disrespecting each other, we should deserve respect in equal measure. No matter if one likes tentacle porn and the other Rambo (or hemp, same sex coitus, RPGs, or whatever pastime one enjoys as long it's legal and consensual). Edit: isn't this what anglos call Bigotry, prejudice towards something only because it's "weird"?

Sincere question.
You may not come from my culture but when you come online, you really should be aware of the culture of the places you are interacting.

I mean, I imagine all of us are into SOMETHING weird. I'm not judging you for liking something weird. Not gonna talk about it cause it isn't appropriate for an RPG forum (and I have no interest in broadcasting it to strangers and passing online acquaintances).

I'd be judging you for an inability to read the room. That is something completely different.

Also, and keep in mind I'm someone who has had some disagreements with Tristram in the past: I think you got hit with a threadban for a perfectly understandable reason and that you need to chill cause all you are doing is making yourself look bad.
 

Black Leaf

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This is why I participate in these threads, even when I don't feel like I have a whole lot to really bitch about.

Y'all see this? This is what you can expect if you have a serious concern with how these forums are being moderated. This is how they treat people who disagree with them, who challenge their decisions, and who think their particular pet issue is (or should be) allowed by the rules.

Having been on the receiving end of this recently, I'd like to keep it that way. And I hope everyone seeing this feels comfortable taking up their issues with the moderators, knowing how their concerns are going to be handled.
Honestly, if your concern is "I want to be able to decide which moderators are allowed to moderate me", that one's simply not going to get anywhere. (And I'm going to do Lessa the courtesy of actually having read what he posted. That's specifically what he called for).

Apart from anything else, it's unworkable.

Currently, I am the only mod online.

If someone doesn't want me to moderate them and then does something moddable, how do you suggest I handle that? Leave things to potentially escalate until someone else arrives?

And having gone back over the thread in question, yeah, sorry Lessa. If Endless or a mod tells you to drop something just drop it, even if you're going to bring it up here. Honestly, any other forum I can think of would give you a temp ban for deliberately ignoring mod instructions, here it's a slap on the wrist and a threadban at worst.

If people want to discuss whether people should feel free to take "stop doing that" as a guideline that they're free to ignore we can do, but I don't see how that one's going to work.

Which leaves us with the following issues.

Lessa and Tristram don't like each other. Fine. Who cares? Tristram has (and I checked back on this) not interacted with Lessa for months unless directly addressed. So aside from actual mod stuff, all that needs is for them to both carry on doing that. Tristram may prefer it if Lessa wasn't here but he's already stated explicitly he's not banning him.

Should it be considered trolling or a personal attack to be negative about a RPG system? Not in my view, although if people want to argue otherwise that probably deserves its own thread. (And funnily enough an entirely different set of people get irritated when we're rude about D&D and I've never had more time for that).

At which point I'm not sure there's anything actually important left and am inclined to thinking that people are just all going a bit mad because of COVID.

Yeah, if I'm honest I wish all the protaganists in this latest pointless storm in a teacup would just fuck off so I can go back to doing returns for my En Garde! game but sadly it comes with the job.
 

Voros

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These kind of arguments feel pointless to me but I will say that I appreciate and value Lessa Lessa as a poster and hope they continue to post here.

I understand why Lessa found the fellow posting about 'PbtA is Crossfit' annoying but best to just ignore those posts and not feed the fire/tangent. I only addressed it once it seemed to be derailing things.

And to be fair to the poster he didn't seem to be intentionally trolling, we all have subjects that we get our backs up over and slip into rants about (for me that is Finch's OSR Primer).

I find the original argument in the Sex Moves thread odd as I took it to mean that Lessa likes crazy transgressive anime, which I don't think is that odd a thing. I certainly own some crazy transgressive books and films too, I don't consider that some reflection on my character or my rather banal RL tastes.

And as one who started that Sex Moves thread (I'm telling ya that thread title is helping site traffic!), I get why some would find the jokes annoying for potentially derailing the thread but I found the humour more good natured rather than mocking per se and overall felt the thread did help clarify what the rules actually are and how they are used at the table. Which is more than I can say for any other forum on the net that I've encountered.
 

Black Leaf

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Ignoring posters you find annoying is the best option in almost all cases tbh. A lot of it is always either a) people's personal bugbears or b) clashing posting styles.
 

Dammit Viktor

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Honestly, if your concern is "I want to be able to decide which moderators are allowed to moderate me", that one's simply not going to get anywhere. (And I'm going to do Lessa the courtesy of actually having read what he posted. That's specifically what he called for).

I don't think it was clear that I wasn't being sarcastic. If posters actually have a serious complaint about how the forums are being moderated, I think the way that you and Tristram are treating Lessa/(Silva?) in this thread, right now, is how I would want those posters and their complaints to be addressed. Whether they're reasonable complaints or not, whether they're offered in good faith or not, regardless of what kind of standing the poster enjoys with the moderators and the community.

Consistent, transparent, and without rancor. As a regular pain in the ass, I am comforted to know that I will always be treated at least as well as this.
 

Endless Flight

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That’s actually one of the things that annoys me the most: requests to me modded by someone else. I’ve specifically directed the guys not to do that because there’s not an army of us as Black Leaf alluded to. Chances are, I will probably come down harder than the original mod would have anyway by that point.
 

CRKrueger

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Just a couple things, since I just noticed this thread erupted again. I didn’t Deadname anybody in the exchange (nobody accused me of it I know, but still).

As far as Baulderstone Baulderstone is concerned, I’ll admit I let Lessa wind me up, but I find it weird to call me out for pointing out historical patterns then saying I have a historical pattern. You jumping in and letting flow the contempt in defense of the narrative side of things is a long pattern too, going back to the Site.

Let’s be honest, in that thread I’m far from the only one that picked up the old sword from the wall.
 

CRKrueger

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Endless asked you to move on twice, and you kept going both times. Given your history of simply deciding to ignore moderator instructions, I think a final warning is lenient.
Do you mean “you” plural, because the only mod calling me out specifically was you.

Post 49, is Endless telling everyone to put it back on track. Once.
Post 50, 3 minutes later, is me responding to Lessa.
Post 51, 3 minutes after that, is me responding to Lessa.

After that, I actually saw Endless’ post and left it alone.

The final warning was already given to everyone, not singled out, in post 53. I’ve left it alone since. Apparently others did not, I never saw the posts.

Then, in post #112, you come in and single me out, talk about some favoured status I possess, and then deliver your typical contempt, in your post clearly as a mod, not a poster.

I honestly don’t think I’m the only one who got triggered today.
 

CRKrueger

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All I can say is that we let a lot of shit fly around here. Some of this stuff is just not needed.
I’ll admit, I saw Lessa start in with the reports, and jumped in. Not really needed, but damn.
 

Baulderstone

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Do you mean “you” plural, because the only mod calling me out specifically was you.

Post 49, is Endless telling everyone to put it back on track. Once.
Post 50, 3 minutes later, is me responding to Lessa.
Post 51, 3 minutes after that, is me responding to Lessa.

After that, I actually saw Endless’ post and left it alone.

The final warning was already given to everyone, not singled out, in post 53. I’ve left it alone since. Apparently others did not, I never saw the posts.

Then, in post #112, you come in and single me out, talk about some favoured status I possess, and then deliver your typical contempt, in your post clearly as a mod, not a poster.

I honestly don’t think I’m the only one who got triggered today.
The comment I moderated you for (#50) was made before any warnings were given, and that fact is irrelevant. You shouldn't need a warning to know that we aren't interested in carrying on the War Against the Swine here.
 

CRKrueger

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The comment I moderated you for (#50) was made before any warnings were given, and that fact is irrelevant. You shouldn't need a warning to know that we aren't interested in carrying on the War Against the Swine here.
I think you mean #41, that’s the one you quoted, anyway. I admit it wasn’t needed, but you should know better than most that this wasn’t a Forgie/Gameplay War thing, this was posters with a certain viewpoint hitting the Report button a helluva lot more than those they argue with (please don’t even try to tell me that isn’t true with a straight face) after they just admitted they reported someone.

When I start blasting reports at you guys crying foul every time I get in a dust up, you know, like a bunch of other people, then you could say I’m the biggest crybaby here.

Disagreeing with you or your interpretation of me, or answering your personal attacks isn’t being a crybaby.
 

TristramEvans

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I really don't want a stigma around making reports, (even though I think announcing to someone that you've reported them is unnecessarily antagonistic).

I'll be honest, though, if I had been first responder in the thread, I probably would have come down much harsher on everyone than Endless, who decided to handle it all with just a warning. I agree with Baulderstone that CRK's post about "Narrative players" was a needless escalation and I likely would have erased it and/or handed out a threadban. But I don't like stepping on other Mod's toes either, so if Endless or anyone else drops a warning, my thought is "that is how they've chose to handle this", and I merely backed them up after being led to the thread by multiple reports. It was only after all that I erased Lessa's final post that continued the aggression after three warnings and threadbanned him (and I was a bit iffy on SirFrog as well, because I would have preferred the tangent dropped entirely after asked, but at least he was simply apologizing/communicating his point of view and not continuing the aggression).
 

Black Leaf

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Generally, I think anybody has the right to make reports. I can see no reason and nothing good coming out of the "I'm reporting you!" stuff that went on in the thread. It's like Ignore Lists. I encourage people to use ignore lists if they can't get on. That doesn't mean we need "who is on your ignore list" threads.

Apart from anything else, from a selfish point of view, it makes it really hard for me to moderate objectively. Because publicly weaponising moderation like that makes me instantly inclined to assume you're the primary antagonist even if that isn't the case.
 

Black Leaf

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I think you mean #41, that’s the one you quoted, anyway. I admit it wasn’t needed, but you should know better than most that this wasn’t a Forgie/Gameplay War thing, this was posters with a certain viewpoint hitting the Report button a helluva lot more than those they argue with (please don’t even try to tell me that isn’t true with a straight face) after they just admitted they reported someone.

When I start blasting reports at you guys crying foul every time I get in a dust up, you know, like a bunch of other people, then you could say I’m the biggest crybaby here.

Disagreeing with you or your interpretation of me, or answering your personal attacks isn’t being a crybaby.
I can tell you with a straight face (because it's entirely true) that Lessa doesn't make notably more reports then you do. It's the same for most posters. People will have a few reports from a thread and then go quiet for months. I'm not going to pretend you're not at the higher end of reported posters (although not necessarily the highest) but it really isn't always from the same people. And if you're under the impression that people are constantly reporting you that really isn't the case. I had to go back into the archives to find the most recent one before this.
 

CRKrueger

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I can tell you with a straight face (because it's entirely true) that Lessa doesn't make notably more reports then you do. It's the same for most posters. People will have a few reports from a thread and then go quiet for months. I'm not going to pretend you're not at the higher end of reported posters (although not necessarily the highest) but it really isn't always from the same people. And if you're under the impression that people are constantly reporting you that really isn't the case. I had to go back into the archives to find the most recent one before this.
I didn’t say everyone was reporting me, until this kerfluffle I’ve been relatively brawl-free. I just noticed the “enough with the reports already”. When you guys say that, it seems like you’re getting a lot.
 

TristramEvans

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I didn’t say everyone was reporting me, until this kerfluffle I’ve been relatively brawl-free. I just noticed the “enough with the reports already”. When you guys say that, it seems like you’re getting a lot.

We got multiple in a row on that thread in quick succession. I think at that point Endless was just saying "I'm here in the thread looking at things we don't need anymore right now, we're handling it, thanks"
 
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