Moderation Criticisms

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Lessa

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You may not come from my culture but when you come online, you really should be aware of the culture of the places you are interacting.

I mean, I imagine all of us are into SOMETHING weird. I'm not judging you for liking something weird. Not gonna talk about it cause it isn't appropriate for an RPG forum (and I have no interest in broadcasting it to strangers and passing online acquaintances).

I'd be judging you for an inability to read the room. That is something completely different.

Also, and keep in mind I'm someone who has had some disagreements with Tristram in the past: I think you got hit with a threadban for a perfectly understandable reason and that you need to chill cause all you are doing is making yourself look bad.
You have a point. Maybe I crossed a line back at the RpgSite. It was another time (2013) and I was younger back then. But remember it wasn't me who brought the thing here - it was Tristram who caved down a quote from me back from the Site days, and brought it here to justify his own aggression towards me:

https://www.rpgpub.com/threads/moderation-criticism.5068/page-4#post-199718

In other words, It wasn't me disrespecting the room here, it was another user bringing up something I said from I dont know when from somewhere else. To which I had to defend myself. Even more so because he did it when I was absent (luckily someone saw it and gave me a heads up, to which I came here and reminded everyone I didn't condone rape in real life in any form, even more so because I'm a father of a beautiful daughter).

Try to picture this: you're calmly talking with some guy about PbtA and sex moves or something, innocently and with no I'll intentions, then the guy starts to become aggressive and trying to mock and ridicule you and your tastes out of nowhere. To what you start to realize "hey this guy is stressed or does he have something personal against me?", and then after subsequent attempts at engaging with the guy civilizedly you notice yes, the guy seems to have marked a target on you and wants to demoralize you or something, and NOW you get pissed and puts on a tantrum and goes away from the forums....

....just to see a post from the guy admitting "here, this post (from 2013) is what made me mad at Silva and be aggressive to him and his sex moves since then".

I mean, wtf?

If the guy hasn't messed up my past in another site to bring It here nothing of this would have happened. And if he had made that but confronted me about it, maybe I would talk about it civilized and even apologize if my tastes offended him somehow. I never disliked the guy until then, I had no reasons to be rude if he asked politely.

Anyway, fast forward to the present, it seems only reasonable to ask for another moderator to "supervise" my actions, given the historic above. Dont know if its viable for the staff, though. If not, well, I tried. Edit: Black Leaf Black Leaf above confirmed it's unviable.

And I said I was done here. Now I am. Thanks for the ideas Emperor. See ya.
 
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TristramEvans

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You have a point. Maybe I crossed a line back at the RpgSite. It was such a long time ago (2013) and I was younger back then. But remember it wasn't me who brought the thing here - it was Tristram who caved down a quote from me back from the Site days, and brought it here to justify his own aggression towards me:

In other words, It wasn't me disrespecting the room here, it was another user bringing up something I said from I dont know when from somewhere else. To which I had to defend myself. Even more so because he did it when I was absent (luckily someone saw it and gave me a heads up, to which I came here and reminded everyone I didn't condone rape in real life in any form, even more so because I'm a father of a beautiful daughter).

Nope, there was never a point where I said anything about justifying aggression towards you - that's still a fabrication.
Try to picture this: you're calmly talking with some guy about PbtA and sex moves or something, innocently and with no I'll intentions, then the guy starts to become aggressive and trying to mock and ridicule you and your tastes out of nowhere.

Which never happened. You dropped into a thread where other people were talking with a chip on your shoulder, became aggressive out of nowhere, and then have ever since tried to use that thread as justification for attacking me.

To what you start to realize "hey this guy is stressed or does he have something personal against me?", and then after subsequent attempts at engaging with the guy civilizedly
lol, no.

I've pretty much ignored you since then, and you've done drive-by insults periodically since then.

....just to see a post from the guy admitting "here, this post (from 2013) is what made me mad at Silva and be aggressive to him and his sex moves since then".

I mean, wtf?

clue-but-heres-what-really-happened_600_406_81_s.jpg

I said, quite specifically, ""well, it started with Silva, and Silva's chips originated on the Site"

Note when I say "chips" I'm very clearly talking about the chips on YOUR shoulder, which you've been harbouring towards me since the Site.

As I go on to say "I was pretty merciless then, and my reactions to him bringing up mechanics in games related to sex here no doubt opened old wounds"

Meaning, he was pissed at me back then, and my supposition was that when he started bringing up Rape Scenarios when talking about Sex Moves here at the Pub and I objected to that, he got increasingly aggressive towards me.

Funny how you can take two statements talking about your ongoing issues with me, and twist them around in your mind to think it was me saying I was nursing a grudge against you.

If the guy hasn't messed up my past in another site to bring It here nothing of this would have happened.

Hmmmmmmmm....anyone who wants to should check the date on that Sex Moves thread he freaked out about , then the moderation issues thread where I moved his meltdown, and then the date in which I posted Silva's little "I get off on rape" comment to give context to why his constant desire to bring up his fantasies was considered in bad taste. (To save anyone the trouble, the Sex Moves thread happened in February 2020, Silva's meltdown was in July 2020, and I posted his post from the Site in...September 2020).

So, yeah, another fasehood This had all already long since happened before that, trying to pretend it was an inciting incident or that I brought it up out of nowhere is...well, let's face it, par for the course at this point.
And if he had made that but confronted me about it, maybe I would talk about it civilized and even apologize if my tastes offended him somehow. I never disliked the guy until then, I had no reasons to be rude if he asked politely.

lol, man, let's go back over the series of events...

In 2013, Silva, before getting banned from the RPG site for trolling, posts this randomly in a thread...

50198025161_d2f6da0dc2_o.jpg

And, it being the Site, many, including myself, lay into him pretty mercilessly for that.

Cut to February 2020, Voros starts a thread to explain the controversial "Sex Moves" present in PbtA games. Many of us begin making jokes. Everyone is having a good time and then Silva drops in the thread, takes the entire conversation personally, and apparently decides that we are all talking about him, despite the blatant evidence to the contrary. Hell, it was even clarified several times in the thread:

0s1.PNG

0s2.PNG

Meanwhile, Silva also shares his "favourite sex move", which as under_score points out is "kinda rapey":

0s3.PNG
I don't say anything about this at the time.

Later that month, Silva starts a thread about how he likes Boardgames better than RPGs. He gets angry with me when I move the thread from the RPG forum to the Boardgames forum. He further gets angry with me when I talk about the difference in the experience between playing Call of Cthulhu vs the boardgame Arkham Horror. The debate gets mildly heated, and, not being able to respond to my points, instead of graciously acceding, Silva says "whatever bro", and I tongue in cheek declare myself the "Winner" with a goofy gif.

0s4.PNG

Whereupon Silva asks Endless if he is allowed to Ignore Mods, and Endless says no.

The only moderation of Silva during this time takes place when he drops into a thread on Christian-themed RPGs and posts this, which Ipromptly erased:

000CaptureSilva.JPG

Then we come to the thread "Why D&D" in late July.

It's like a 40 page thread so I'm not going to summarize the majority of the conversation, which is, like most long threads on the Pub, about a huge variety of topics. But it is interesting to note that through most of the thread, Silva and I are interacting completely civilly, and he doesn't seem at that point to bear any aggression towards me. But around page 16 me and Norton cross words a bit. Norton says he thinks I'm an asshole because...something to do with me making an observation about how often people in online arguments seem to assume they are evoking an emotional reaction to me, I dunno, I'm not going to reread the whole thread, but anyways, out of nowhere, Silva latches on to that and then we have THIS exchange...

0s5.PNG

It took you all this time to notice that? This guy is the most inadequate moderator I've seen in a long time.

In fact, putting him as "moderator" must already be some joke.

In what way are you being moderated? I mean, I'm tempted to moderate you over this post, because you've clearly decided that a random personal attack is somehow appropriate, but since I'm involved, I'll leave that to another Mod to avoid the appearance of partiality. Because, how I moderate has ZERO to do with my discussions on the forum. And, I find this a pretty duplicitous and unfounded assertion.


Being moderated? Are you fucking kidding or playing dumb? You try to troll me left and right for the most of my staying here, and you wanna talk of moderation, you dumbshit? You're a fucking coward, that's what you are.

At least act like a man and admit you don't like me and try to troll me, instead of hiding behind jokes.

Edit: even @Faylar retracted when he felt I was not liking the jokes sometime ago, but you play dumb and continue to pull it off. Like the coward you are. If you don't like me, thats cool, because I don't like you too. But hiding behind sarcasm and jokes is the mark of a coward.

Maybe you should step back, take a deep breath, and think about things.

Maybe YOU should step back and reflect on your modus operandi on this forum for a long time now.

I've never ridiculed you "as a moderator".

As a moderator, I've deleted some of your posts where you were obviously trolling.

But if I ridicule you, I wouldn't use my mod powers to do it. I would consider that an abuse of power, and a violation of my position here at The Pub, which I do take rather seriously.

So...just to check, before this goes any further...

This isn't an elaborate strategy to try and get me angry to prove the accuracy of the Cortex social combat system, is it? Because if so, hurrah sir, a brilliant scheme (if ineffectual in this case).

Assuming sadly that is likely not the case, however, you should recognize that the abrupt change in my demeanor and the tone of my posts does represent me "putting on my Mod hat", as it were, and hence, I'm letting your insults wash off my back and attempting to prevent you from digging too big a hole for yourself.

Then I ask you from now on to treat me like a moderator, straight, to the point, and with no jokes.

And not as the mocking coward you are as a person.

Lessa silva I’m not quite sure how you think Tristram is modding you differently than anyone else? I saw one of the posts he deleted of yours and I agreed with it. There’s no personal vendettas that the mods take out on individual posters.

It might be a good idea for everyone to read everything twice before hitting the reply button for awhile.

Lessa silva I don’t appreciate your vocabulary in the least. I would encourage some restraint or you’ll be banned from the thread. I did get your PM but I had to sift through the last few pages of this thread and I’m posting here. Not to mention getting a report out of this.

Just because somebody has a reputation for getting angry about things faster is no excuse for behaving worse and expecting people to treat them with dignity and respect and with kid gloves. These are debates about social mechanics in RPGs...

Do you have something to say about the other fella behavior? Just curious.

Endless Flight Endless Flight , if the very administrator can't see that one of his moderators is having a toxic behavior toward users, then it means there's nothing to avoid such behavior repeating in the future.

I'm out of here. Consider this a self ban.

Your "self ban" lasts for maybe a month I think. Notice at no point was there any moderation over this meltdown, other than the posts getting moved to another "moderation criticism" thread. But, really, we SHOULD have just banned you outright then. I can't think of any other forum where you wouldn't have been. Anyways, after coming back I mostly just don't interact with you, as per your request. Though you apparently forgot about this request because you consistently try to interact with me, which I ignore for several months.

In September, during a discussion in a Moderation thread, a discussion of certain poster's issues with me is started, and that's when I bring up my belief that Silva's issues started with me way back at the Site when we teased him for bringing up his rape fetish.

Later, in December, Silva is again posting about his rape fetishes here at the Pub and I ask another mod to step in and talk to him about it:

With our history, I really don't want to engage with him, but maybe someone could tell Silva that bringing up his rape fetish really isn't appropriate for The Pub.


From that point on, besides the occasional thread moderation, I actively avoid Silva. And periodically he drops in negative comments about me. There's one in this thread, way back like page 3 or something, in the midst of the Chris Brady stuff. Ad that takes us to now, where he's claiming everything from me persecuting him to me stalking him, along with his continued disengenuous portrayal of events.

My favourite is this one:

I never offended him, or insulted him, or disrespect him in any manner.


And I said I was done here. Now I am. Thanks for the ideas Emperor. See ya.

Welp...I hope this is true. Bye.
 

EmperorNorton

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But around page 16 me and Norton cross words a bit. Norton says he thinks I'm an asshole because...something to do with me making an observation about how often people in online arguments seem to assume they are evoking an emotional reaction to me, I dunno, I'm not going to reread the whole thread

I had to go find it because I was curious what you were even talking about, but no, the context was that 1. you were insisting that the rules for something were ridiculous by framing it in the most ridiculous way possible and using that to mock it, and 2. I said that if your response to things were being done on a completely even keel, rather than at some level an emotional response, that it made you look worse not better. 3. It was a pretty in passing statement cause I think most people are assholes at some point or another, including myself.

I think one of my biggest problems to you comes down to the fact that you very often will start responding with meme images like you are just palling around with people who don't see you as a pal. You say you are trying to "lighten the mood" but if someone is already annoyed with you it is incredibly counterproductive. At first I took it as you being kind of an asshole, but after a while I've just started to think in some ways you just don't read people very well.
 

TristramEvans

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I assume everyone here at the Pub is my pal into proven otherwise, sure.

And no, I don't read people well,. Or I read them too well and that makes them uncomfortable. One of the two, dunno.

Mostly , though, I just like communicating in memes. I find them superior to speech.
 

JRT

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While I've not involved myself in this before, this latest incident makes me want to comment.

That’s actually one of the things that annoys me the most: requests to me modded by someone else. I’ve specifically directed the guys not to do that because there’s not an army of us as Black Leaf alluded to. Chances are, I will probably come down harder than the original mod would have anyway by that point.

Endless Flight--I think if this is a repeated request, that's the smoke that indicates a fire. And it's concerning to be because if the participants of this forum are seeing a pattern, it's something that needs to be taken up.

From what I've seen in the few years that has come up here--it appears to me that the only moderator that people have had a problem with is TristamEvans. I've not seen complaints about other moderators by name. Just looking at the history of the thread, it's a subject that has come up repeatedly. If it was just one poster, I would dismiss it, but this come up repeatedly and is enough that I think it warrants comments.

I think one of the issues comes with how I see moderators work on other sites. Usually, mods are more passive--they participate in conversations, but they aren't as prolific as the other posters. And they have the maturity not to get emotional or defensive or anything like that. In short, becoming a moderator usually means they post less than they used to and don't take debates as seriously as they used to.

The difference when it comes to Tristam is a few things I've observed:
  • He is one of, if not the, most prolific poster on this site.
  • He can be a little prickly when debating.
Again, both of those things aren't objectionable by default. But it does leave a conflict of interest sometimes, like if you want to have a serious debate and setup the Mod+ threads, I think mods themselves might want to avoid those types of discussions.

But based on his last post here, I see the most troubling pattern.

In past forums, I've never really seen mods get "into the mud" with the other participants while acting as a moderator. Good mods know not to take things personally, they have more control over their emotions, etc. However, every time a poster leaves in a conflict, I've seen these long screeds where Tristam feels he needs to either defend himself and/or humiliate the person who criticized him. There are usually long, and tend to be filled with things I wouldn't normally expect a mod to do. Sacrastic stuff like the "But here's what really happened" image above. Or, for instance, this post:

https://www.rpgpub.com/threads/the-call-of-stevethulhu.5578/#post-235988, where it was against Stevethullu.

I mean there's a lot of anger there...that post got to me a little bit when I saw it, as I felt it was immature and also goes against the usually friendliness of the pub. I'd expect that kind of mod message from a guy like the RPG Pundit, not from mods here. What got to me also was the fact that no other moderator felt the need to intervene and take that stuff down. I would expect another moderator would have said "whoa, you're going too far, we'll delete this post and you can cool off".

I haven't wanted to say anything about this before, since I've never had a personal problem with Tristam myself, and for the most part the pub works without heavy handed moderation. But based on this thread history, there's clearly starting to be a perception that's been coming up. And it's becoming repeated enough to concern me. I don't want to see the pub start to get a reputation of being unfriendly or a place where Mods take things too personally if they are criticized.

But that's up to the mods -- maybe you all have to come up with an internal or external "moderator code of conduct" or something that could help. Again, this is your site and that's up to you. But I don't think I'm the only one who has these concerns.
 

Endless Flight

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J JRT Tristram is not the only mod here who people have had a problem with.
 

under_score

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Meanwhile, Silva also shares his "favourite sex move", which as under_score points out is "kinda rapey":

View attachment 33924
If I'm to be included in the screenshot archive of internet RPG drama, calling out Ol' Rapey Silva is definitely the best place to be.

There was another thread where I agreed to stop giving him shit about his rape fantasies if he'd stop bringing it up, but I guess he's feeling too restrained for not being able to thrust his perversities wherever he wants without consideration of anyone else.... much like his fantasies.

Doubt his latest self-ban lasts more than another month, as long as there is an unwilling audience here for him to get his jollies with.
 

TristramEvans

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While I've not involved myself in this before, this latest incident makes me want to comment.



Endless Flight--I think if this is a repeated request, that's the smoke that indicates a fire. And it's concerning to be because if the participants of this forum are seeing a pattern, it's something that needs to be taken up.

From what I've seen in the few years that has come up here--it appears to me that the only moderator that people have had a problem with is TristamEvans. I've not seen complaints about other moderators by name. Just looking at the history of the thread, it's a subject that has come up repeatedly. If it was just one poster, I would dismiss it, but this come up repeatedly and is enough that I think it warrants comments.

I think one of the issues comes with how I see moderators work on other sites. Usually, mods are more passive--they participate in conversations, but they aren't as prolific as the other posters. And they have the maturity not to get emotional or defensive or anything like that. In short, becoming a moderator usually means they post less than they used to and don't take debates as seriously as they used to.

The difference when it comes to Tristam is a few things I've observed:
  • He is one of, if not the, most prolific poster on this site.
  • He can be a little prickly when debating.
Again, both of those things aren't objectionable by default. But it does leave a conflict of interest sometimes, like if you want to have a serious debate and setup the Mod+ threads, I think mods themselves might want to avoid those types of discussions.

But based on his last post here, I see the most troubling pattern.

In past forums, I've never really seen mods get "into the mud" with the other participants while acting as a moderator. Good mods know not to take things personally, they have more control over their emotions, etc. However, every time a poster leaves in a conflict, I've seen these long screeds where Tristam feels he needs to either defend himself and/or humiliate the person who criticized him. There are usually long, and tend to be filled with things I wouldn't normally expect a mod to do. Sacrastic stuff like the "But here's what really happened" image above. Or, for instance, this post:

https://www.rpgpub.com/threads/the-call-of-stevethulhu.5578/#post-235988, where it was against Stevethullu.

I mean there's a lot of anger there...that post got to me a little bit when I saw it, as I felt it was immature and also goes against the usually friendliness of the pub. I'd expect that kind of mod message from a guy like the RPG Pundit, not from mods here. What got to me also was the fact that no other moderator felt the need to intervene and take that stuff down. I would expect another moderator would have said "whoa, you're going too far, we'll delete this post and you can cool off".

I haven't wanted to say anything about this before, since I've never had a personal problem with Tristam myself, and for the most part the pub works without heavy handed moderation. But based on this thread history, there's clearly starting to be a perception that's been coming up. And it's becoming repeated enough to concern me. I don't want to see the pub start to get a reputation of being unfriendly or a place where Mods take things too personally if they are criticized.

But that's up to the mods -- maybe you all have to come up with an internal or external "moderator code of conduct" or something that could help. Again, this is your site and that's up to you. But I don't think I'm the only one who has these concerns.

If someone has a legitimate problem with my moderation, I'm completely open to hearing about it. The problem is, having a personal issue with me as a poster doesn't automatically translate to any action I've taken as a moderator. So far, I don't think anyone has provided an example of me abusing my position as a mod. It's clear you have certain expectations of "how a mod should behave", which includes not being an active poster. I guess I don't know where these expectations come from, or what they are based upon. When I'm acting as a moderator I've always done my best to not act like any of the moderators at other forums that I've left.

I also have to admit confusion as to the interpretation of emotions - but then, I'm often confused by that online. I think that is what I was talking about in the What is D&D? Thread referenced above. I will say that the long period of time it takes to compile well-researched rebuttals that lay out a particular history are, in my experience, completely incompatible with fleeting emotions like anger. They are....academic work, for lack of a better analogy. I think...maybe just many people haven't seen me angry, so there's no basis for comparison. Or it has something to do with the combination of my bluntness and/or sense of humour (particularly, it seems in regards to memes). When I'm angry, generally it's a stream of consciousness thing, or more often, I don't post, I go away and brood. I can remember the last time I was angry here at the Pub - it was the thread about having a Reviews Forum.

Anyways, if Endless or any other mod has an issue with me I don't think they would ever hesitate to call me out on it.
 

EmperorNorton

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I think this goes back to my point though in the Why D&D? thread. When people are ascribing anger to what you do, it is an attempt to find motivation for why you are doing what you are doing.

Because from his perspective, there just isn't really a need for a long well-researched take down of anyone. And the options are:

1. You are heated and you aren't making the decision to do them from a clear point of view.
2. You are completely even keeled and you are just doing it cause you think it is the right thing to do.

And if he thinks that the acts themselves are flawed, at least being angry would explain why you are making the mistake of doing them.
 

TristramEvans

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I think this goes back to my point though in the Why D&D? thread. When people are ascribing anger to what you do, it is an attempt to find motivation for why you are doing what you are doing.

Because from his perspective, there just isn't really a need for a long well-researched take down of anyone. And the options are:

1. You are heated and you aren't making the decision to do them from a clear point of view.
2. You are completely even keeled and you are just doing it cause you think it is the right thing to do.

And if he thinks that the acts themselves are flawed, at least being angry would explain why you are making the mistake of doing them.

huh, no, neither of those are my motivations. I'm not sure what "the right thing to do" means insofar as I don't feel....ethically motivated, if that's what you mean.

I guess I'm not sure why anyone is looking for a motivation in regards to providing proof or references to back up an assertion, beyond, like, just "it's the truth" y'know? I mean, maybe it's because I'm on my third degree and spent a lot of my life in school, but it just seems like the normal approach to a disagreement that isn't based upon opinion or perspective. I don't know how to respond to someone thinking that is flawed.
 

Ladybird

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I assume everyone here at the Pub is my pal into proven otherwise, sure.

And no, I don't read people well,. Or I read them too well and that makes them uncomfortable. One of the two, dunno.

Mostly , though, I just like communicating in memes. I find them superior to speech.
The problem is that, no matter how you like to communicate and your intentions, if multiple other people are regularly reading it differently - and given how often some form of "Tristram adding memes into conversations makes them more heated" comes up, I think it's safe to say that is a thing that is happening, rather than it being a few posters purposefully reading you in bad faith - then your intentions aren't coming through and so you've picked the wrong communication strategy.
 

Endless Flight

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I don’t see anything bad about a well-researched takedown of anyone. I wouldn’t do it because I’m too lazy to look through a bunch of posts, but if Tristram or anyone else has that memory and talent and time, great. People usually don’t like those because they aren’t going to look good on the other end.
 

TristramEvans

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The problem is that, no matter how you like to communicate and your intentions, if multiple other people are regularly reading it differently - and given how often some form of "Tristram adding memes into conversations makes them more heated" comes up, I think it's safe to say that is a thing that is happening, rather than it being a few posters purposefully reading you in bad faith - then your intentions aren't coming through and so you've picked the wrong communication strategy.

But, if the "likes" are a basis for determining reactions, my memes tend to get more likes than any other posts
 

Black Leaf

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I don’t see anything bad about a well-researched takedown of anyone. I wouldn’t do it because I’m too lazy to look through a bunch of posts, but if Tristram or anyone else has that memory and talent and time, great. People usually don’t like those because they aren’t going to look good on the other end.
Wait, people actually read those posts in full? No offense to Tristram, but I don't think I've ever done anything but casually skim them.

I simply don't care about other people's interpersonal disputes enough.
 

EmperorNorton

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huh, no, neither of those are my motivations. I'm not sure what "the right thing to do" means insofar as I don't feel....ethically motivated, if that's what you mean.

I guess I'm not sure why anyone is looking for a motivation in regards to providing proof or references to back up an assertion, beyond, like, just "it's the truth" y'know? I mean, maybe it's because I'm on my third degree and spent a lot of my life in school, but it just seems like the normal approach to a disagreement that isn't based upon opinion or perspective. I don't know how to respond to someone thinking that is flawed.
I don't mean right in "ethically motivated" I mean right as in "appropriate". That that is just the thing you should be doing in the situation.

Also, and I'm going to try to say this in a way that I want you to know that I don't mean this in a way of trying to insult you, but trying to get you to understand why people are reacting to you the way they are: This whole thing of playing down emotions and placing yourself as just acting on logic and "my background in academia" just comes off as really tone deaf to what is happening.

I feel like if you spent more time trying to figure out WHY people are reacting to you the way they do than trying to prove that you are right about everything, or that they are WRONG for having the reaction they have to what you do, this probably wouldn't happen nearly as much.
But, if the "likes" are a basis for determining reactions, my memes tend to get more likes than any other posts
Eh, people love drama man. Go look at what gets the most likes everywhere. The vast majority of it will be clever "takedowns" of people. If you make a silly meme post in response to someone who is not taking a popular opinion on the site, of course a lot of people are going to like your post. But that doesn't change the fact for the person who probably already feels like they are in the minority and being ganged up on (whether that is a justified feeling or not), that it feels like you are escalating things.
 

Black Leaf

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Also, and I'm going to try to say this in a way that I want you to know that I don't mean this in a way of trying to insult you, but trying to get you to understand why people are reacting to you the way they are: This whole thing of playing down emotions and placing yourself as just acting on logic and "my background in academia" just comes off as really tone deaf to what is happening.

To be fair, the academic background does go some of the way to explaining Tristram's takedown posts.

Inaccessible and densely written text that takes 2000 words to make an argument that normally takes 100. Oh, hi, it's the social sciences department.
 

TristramEvans

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I don't mean right in "ethically motivated" I mean right as in "appropriate". That that is just the thing you should be doing in the situation.

Also, and I'm going to try to say this in a way that I want you to know that I don't mean this in a way of trying to insult you, but trying to get you to understand why people are reacting to you the way they are: This whole thing of playing down emotions and placing yourself as just acting on logic and "my background in academia" just comes off as really tone deaf to what is happening.

I feel like if you spent more time trying to figure out WHY people are reacting to you the way they do than trying to prove that you are right about everything, or that they are WRONG for having the reaction they have to what you do, this probably wouldn't happen nearly as much.

Eh, people love drama man. Go look at what gets the most likes everywhere. The vast majority of it will be clever "takedowns" of people. If you make a silly meme post in response to someone who is not taking a popular opinion on the site, of course a lot of people are going to like your post. But that doesn't change the fact for the person who probably already feels like they are in the minority and being ganged up on (whether that is a justified feeling or not), that it feels like you are escalating things.

But, if I am right, what does it matter why people are reacting the way they do? Like, I'm not in a relationship with anyone here, I get that when I have a girlfriend, that her emotions supercede what is "correct". Granted it took me until my mid 20's to figure that one out. But, among a group of geeks on an RPG forum, why can't being right be enough? Why should I have to worry about people's perceptions, prejudices, or expectations? I accept some people don't like me, find me abrasive, don't share my sense of humour. I've always been perfectly fine with that. But is there some expectation that I should change who I am or how I interact because a handful of people don't like it?
 

Stumpydave

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I've got to say a lot of the motivations and reasons seemingly ascribed to Tristram are armchair psycholgy at their worst and seem more related to old enmities from the Site than actual wrongdoing here.
 

TristramEvans

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To be fair, the academic background does go some of the way to explaining Tristram's takedown posts.

Inaccessible and densely written text that takes 2000 words to make an argument that normally takes 100. Oh, hi, it's the social sciences department.

Hey, I resent that. Three degrees and none of them are in social sciences!
 

Black Leaf

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But, if I am right, what does it matter why people are reacting the way they do? Like, I'm not in a relationship with anyone here, I get that when I have a girlfriend, that her emotions supercede what is "correct". Granted it took me until my mid 20's to figure that one out. But, among a group of geeks on an RPG forum, why can't being right be enough? Why should I have to worry about people's perceptions, prejudices, or expectations? I accept some people don't like me, find me abrasive, don't share my sense of humour. I've always been perfectly fine with that. But is there some expectation that I should change who I am or how I interact because a handful of people don't like it?
Although with a handful of exceptions, very few issues on here are factual.

A lot more of it is stuff like "is this game any good?" or how people interpret each other's posts.

On the latter, I think it can both be the case that some people find your memes escalate tense situation and that doesn't mean you don't have a right to use them if you want. All I'd say is that when you've been told that's the case accept that any escalation in a thread stemming from that is a conscious decision on your part.
 

TristramEvans

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Although with a handful of exceptions, very few issues on here are factual.

A lot more of it is stuff like "is this game any good?" or how people interpret each other's posts.

Oh yeah, that's absolutely the case, which is why these large - as people call them - "takedown posts" are pretty rare and relegated to disputes unrelated to RPGs - or comics, or food, or geese, or any of our other regular conversations here at The Pub.

On the latter, I think it can both be the case that some people find your memes escalate tense situation and that doesn't mean you don't have a right to use them if you want. All I'd say is that when you've been told that's the case accept that any escalation in a thread stemming from that is a conscious decision on your part.

That's fair.
 

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But, if the "likes" are a basis for determining reactions, my memes tend to get more likes than any other posts
If your goal is playing to the crowd, cool, reacts measure that. If your goal is getting an idea across to another person or deescalating a conflict, reacts don't necessarily measure that, responses do.

(I'm not even averse to memes! Sometimes they're the right technique. But sometimes they aren't.)
 

EmperorNorton

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But, if I am right, what does it matter why people are reacting the way they do? Like, I'm not in a relationship with anyone here, I get that when I have a girlfriend, that her emotions supercede what is "correct". Granted it took me until my mid 20's to figure that one out. But, among a group of geeks on an RPG forum, why can't being right be enough? Why should I have to worry about people's perceptions, prejudices, or expectations? I accept some people don't like me, find me abrasive, don't share my sense of humour. I've always been perfectly fine with that. But is there some expectation that I should change who I am or how I interact because a handful of people don't like it?

Being right has never been the only thing that matters in communicating with people. If you are right but you aren't getting your point across because of the way you are presenting it, being right doesn't really matter.

Oh yeah, that's absolutely the case, which is why these large - as people call them - "takedown posts" are pretty rare and relegated to disputes unrelated to RPGs - or comics, or food, or geese, or any of our other regular conversations here at The Pub.

I do think they are still often unnecessary. Like, look at the this thread before you posted the most recent one. Pretty much everyone agreed Lessa was overreacting. Even I said I thought they were being silly, and I know me and you have had pretty strong disagreements about the way you behave on the forums.

Like, there just wasn't any need to "prove" you were right when everyone pretty much already thought you were right. You could have just let it go because the only person who agreed with Lessa was Lessa.
 

EmperorNorton

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I've got to say a lot of the motivations and reasons seemingly ascribed to Tristram are armchair psycholgy at their worst and seem more related to old enmities from the Site than actual wrongdoing here.
I honestly get the bewilderment about people ascribing anger to him when he isn't. I get accused of it, too (honestly it is one of the few things that does actually get me legitimately angry here. It's not fun to be trying to make a point and instead of someone engaging with the point, they paint themselves as wholly logical while accusing you of being hysterical). I'm not trying to "armchair psychology" him, I'm trying to explain why people react to him the way they do, because honestly from his own statements it is clear that he either doesn't get it, or doesn't care that it is causing friction.

That isn't ascribing some mental defect to him.

Also... it is weird for you to go "wow these people ascribing motivations and reasons for why Tristram are doing what he is doing is bad, and now I'm going to ascribe motivations and reasons for why they are doing it".
 
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Stumpydave

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Also... it is weird for you to go "wow these people ascribing motivations and reasons for why Tristram are doing what he is doing is bad, and now I'm going to ascribe motivations and reasons for why they are doing it".
Fair point. But I don't get what other reason exists for people to decide "this is my hill to die on!" on a board dedicated to playing rpgs.
 

TristramEvans

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Being right has never been the only thing that matters in communicating with people. If you are right but you aren't getting your point across because of the way you are presenting it, being right doesn't really matter.

Do you think that I failed to get my point across though?

Like, even in objecting to it, it does seem that you got my point fine...


I do think they are still often unnecessary. Like, look at the this thread before you posted the most recent one. Pretty much everyone agreed Lessa was overreacting. Even I said I thought they were being silly, and I know me and you have had pretty strong disagreements about the way you behave on the forums.

Like, there just wasn't any need to "prove" you were right when everyone pretty much already thought you were right. You could have just let it go because the only person who agreed with Lessa was Lessa.


...the "issue", or miscommunication, seems to be again in looking for the motivation. Like, you think it was unnecessary (sure, I agree with that, it wasn't necessary at all, especially with Lessa announcing his intended departure), so is the question why did I bother? Or who was it for? I guess the only real answer to that is that it was for me.

You know, in doing these sorts of posts before I've discovered on occasion that I was wrong. That I had misread some situation or responded to what I thought someone was saying, and it turns out on rereading they were saying something else. I can think of three times this happened in the last decade off the top of my head. And I ended up instead calling myself out and offering an apology. The last time was about three months ago on a political debate forum I belong to (it's basically where I go to blow off steam, and talk about all the things I don't talk about here - but geeze if you guys think this place gets intense, oh man, that place is a 24/7 boiler room. They also only have one rule - no threats of violence. And I think about three people a week get banned for breaking that rule). Anyways, I guess what I'm saying is - this is how I process things. When I prove something to someone else I'm also proving them to myself. In the end, I certainly don't care what Silva thinks of me. And I wouldn't be surprised if, like Black Leaf, most posters just skim those posts.
 

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Fair point. But I don't get what other reason exists for people to decide "this is my hill to die on!" on a board dedicated to playing rpgs.
I mean if you want to know my motive it is because I feel like if we all tried to understand why people react to us the way they do, then overall the communication on the forum gets better.

I noticed a while back, with the help of some of the people here, that certain ways I communicated on the forums really really caused a lot of disruption. I looked at that, and tried to change the way I was getting my points across and even what points I felt were worth actually responding to.

I didn't have to be "less right" or be disingenuous or not myself. I just adjusted a bit to help keep things from boiling over for everyone.
 
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EmperorNorton

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Do you think that I failed to get my point across though?

Like, even in objecting to it, it does seem that you got my point fine...

Sometimes though? Yeah, I do think that your manner of communicating has made it hard to get your point. There have been times where you have made a quick response to something that was a bit pithy, someone either interprets it badly or just asks you for clarification cause the interpretation they have of what you said is really negative so they wanted to understand your point, and instead of clarification, you respond with a meme that explains... nothing.

Or instead of clarifying you just say something to the degree that they should read your posts. I find this kind of off-putting personally because it always comes off like "I don't need to explain myself, you just lack reading comprehension".

And no, I'm not going to dig up specific instances, because that is time consuming, and just trying to explain to you what I see as issues that are often escalating stuff on the forums and the reason you are the most commonly called out moderator already is taking enough of my time.

...the "issue", or miscommunication, seems to be again in looking for the motivation. Like, you think it was unnecessary (sure, I agree with that, it wasn't necessary at all, especially with Lessa announcing his intended departure), so is the question why did I bother? Or who was it for? I guess the only real answer to that is that it was for me.

You know, in doing these sorts of posts before I've discovered on occasion that I was wrong. That I had misread some situation or responded to what I thought someone was saying, and it turns out on rereading they were saying something else. I can think of three times this happened in the last decade off the top of my head. And I ended up instead calling myself out and offering an apology. The last time was about three months ago on a political debate forum I belong to (it's basically where I go to blow off steam, and talk about all the things I don't talk about here - but geeze if you guys think this place gets intense, oh man, that place is a 24/7 boiler room. They also only have one rule - no threats of violence. And I think about three people a week get banned for breaking that rule). Anyways, I guess what I'm saying is - this is how I process things. When I prove something to someone else I'm also proving them to myself. In the end, I certainly don't care what Silva thinks of me. And I wouldn't be surprised if, like Black Leaf, most posters just skim those posts.

If enough people have problems with them, then I can stop I suppose. Kinda like I stopped making jokes about Sex Moves because a poster (not Lessa) basically asked me nicely not to anymore.

Eh, doing it for yourself for introspection doesn't necessitate posting it. I can see posting it in a case where there is actually some divided opinion on the subject and there does seem to be some question about things. Just in this case it seemed a little unnecessary since everyone already agreed with your actions. Also, I'd say that if you have only found 3 times in the last decade that you can think of that you were wrong, then you probably aren't being as introspective as you think.
 

TristramEvans

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Also, I'd say that if you have only found 3 times in the last decade that you can think of that you were wrong, then you probably aren't being as introspective as you think.

ehhhh...I didn't say only three times I was wrong, I was describing a specific set of circumstances where I turned out to be wrong. But even that said....I'm not wrong that often. The important thing is, when I am wrong, I don't have an issue with admitting it.
 

Black Leaf

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If enough people have problems with them, then I can stop I suppose. Kinda like I stopped making jokes about Sex Moves because a poster (not Lessa) basically asked me nicely not to anymore.
For myself, it's not "don't do this ever" and more "do this when there's actually important stuff to refute". It feels a bit first response at times and at worst feels too close to "we must factcheck internet posts".
 

Raleel

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But, if I am right, what does it matter why people are reacting the way they do? Like, I'm not in a relationship with anyone here, I get that when I have a girlfriend, that her emotions supercede what is "correct". Granted it took me until my mid 20's to figure that one out. But, among a group of geeks on an RPG forum, why can't being right be enough? Why should I have to worry about people's perceptions, prejudices, or expectations? I accept some people don't like me, find me abrasive, don't share my sense of humour. I've always been perfectly fine with that. But is there some expectation that I should change who I am or how I interact because a handful of people don't like it?
I can help here, I think.

As a fellow person of academia (I work at a national lab, and am a scientist), as a person who also has a hard time reading people sometimes (and text drives something like 90% of the information out of communication), as a person who writes all of his stuff with parenthesis so that he can drive more information in, as a person who has literally said most of the things in this quote, as a person who has written "screeds" much like the above beautifully detailed and argued one above - correct isn't going to win you the change in behavior.

As a moderator (and I may be misperceiving the role), a warning to a person is to encourage them to change their behavior. Often through just stopping, but ideally the change would be permanent. If a person does not have a detached view of the situation, they are going to get 1 line into such a thing and they really don't care about any of your facts at all. The "screed" (and let me emphasize, I really did read all of it, loved it, and it is what prompted me back into this thread which I will likely leave again) is really to satisfy you and not to change a heart or mind. You get to be more correct and because you elevate that, you win in your mind. However, it doesn't meet the goal of moderation, as I see it.

Just because we are all geeks on the forums doesn't mean we are all super analytical people who behave rationally. So, the girlfriend rule above still applies with us too - sometimes correct comes after the emotions are tamped down. Sometimes correct never really comes, but behavior is altered for some different logic, but the goal is still met.

I'm excited that I just implied that a whole mess of 40-something males are all Tristram's girlfriends.
 
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TristramEvans

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For myself, it's not "don't do this ever" and more "do this when there's actually important stuff to refute". It feels a bit first response at times and at worst feels too close to "we must factcheck internet posts".

Oh dear lord no, I don't think there should be an obligation. As Endless pointed out, it's simply too time-consuming. I just happened to be up all night, binge watching a show on Netflix, during summer break.
 

Endless Flight

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I don’t expect or want the moderators to all moderate the same way. We all have different methods and we all have our limits of what’s acceptable while staying inside the Pub’s policy.
 

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It seems like the sort of statement that a meme would be the appropriate response, but I don't have one that fits, and I'm scared to google for one...
Not a meme, but for some reason my brain just jumped to this animation based on a Persona 3 radio drama bit where the main character was dating everyone and they all found out at once.

 

Black Leaf

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I don’t expect or want the moderators to all moderate the same way. We all have different methods and we all have our limits of what’s acceptable while staying inside the Pub’s policy.
I might start modding entirely in Latin and Greek. If I'm going to play into the stereotype implied by my avatar I might as well commit.
 
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