Moderation Issues

[CRKrueger]

You're referring to this post ? The rules for "turning someone on"?

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You think it was unfair of me to characterize that example as "sex rules" in a later post?

I mean you try to turn someone on and they give themselves to you, how could you possibly think of that a sex rule? You absolute monster!

 

[Ladybird]

You're referring to this post ? The rules for "turning someone on"?

View attachment 20522

You think it was unfair of me to characterize that example as "sex rules" in a later post?

Well, yeah.

None of those rules involve mechanically judging or rating how the characters have sex. They're to do with a situation that potentially involves sex somewhere, depending on how the characters build up their influence, but the rules are about influencing someone.

If Monsterhearts was a more traditional RPG, they'd be called something like "seduction", and I don't recall us mocking the seduction rules in other games.

Like I said, I'm not raging out. It's a pretty minor concern in the grand scheme of things. But I can see how that sort of mischaracterisation would upset someone who was already feeling heated.

 

[CRKrueger]

Well, yeah.

None of those rules involve mechanically judging or rating how the characters have sex. They're to do with a situation that potentially involves sex somewhere, depending on how the characters build up their influence, but the rules are about influencing someone.

If Monsterhearts was a more traditional RPG, they'd be called something like "seduction", and I don't recall us mocking the seduction rules in other games.

Like I said, I'm not raging out. It's a pretty minor concern in the grand scheme of things. But I can see how that sort of mischaracterisation would upset someone who was already feeling heated.

They’re not simulating how characters have sex any more than narrative RPGs simulate how you do anything.
Seduction rules, like most social skills, in other games usually aren’t PvP.

However the rules present a defeat condition to the player...
Give in and have sex.
Give them something else they want.
Let them hold a mechanical effect over your head they can use anytime.
The intent is to control someone through sex to get what you want, or make their lives difficult if they don’t. (You know, like marriage. )

Such a rule is totally fair game in a game about intense, possibly dangerous, personal relationships, that’s what the players sign up for.

However, characterizing it as a sex rule, is hardly unfair game or out of bounds, not any more than characterizing the Book of Erotic Fantasy or whatever as a book of sex rules would be.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Opening a thread for open free discussion of poster(s)' issues with me is an abuse of my power? I think you'll have to unpack that one.

You don't see how you making Moderator decisions about things that directly involve you is a credibility and responsibility issue?

I did so you would not continue to threadcrap, as you already ignored my suggestion to take the off-topic tangent to the site discussion forum. It's a 24 hour reply ban from the thread.

I must have missed that, and I apologise for it. In my defence, for some reason I don't always get post or tag notifications for some reason.

As for the rest, I don't believe you can be impartial enough to discuss moderation issues without getting personal.

 

[Bunch]

Well, yeah.

None of those rules involve mechanically judging or rating how the characters have sex. They're to do with a situation that potentially involves sex somewhere, depending on how the characters build up their influence, but the rules are about influencing someone.

If Monsterhearts was a more traditional RPG, they'd be called something like "seduction", and I don't recall us mocking the seduction rules in other games.

Like I said, I'm not raging out. It's a pretty minor concern in the grand scheme of things. But I can see how that sort of mischaracterisation would upset someone who was already feeling heated.

This could be due to vastly different play groups. My previous group was high school friends who often behave like they're still in middle school. So "Seduction" attempts often looked more like "I drop my pants to....". Which we did furiously mock and everyone enjoyed.
Playing with mature adults I'm sure the romance and seduction elements of like could be handled with deeper consideration. In that case mocking it would make the game less enjoyable.

 

[TheophilusCarter]

A few months ago, I came back to the Pub after a break of about a year. I said it was for a social media break, but that was only part of the story. I also needed a break from the Pub. I felt that the tone had become increasingly less friendly and inclusive (I mean in the gaming sense), with way too much shitposting in threads about games that people don’t like just to say how much they don’t like them, way too much One True Wayism, and so forth. When I returned, I had hoped to see things had improved, but if anything, I feel like it’s worse. I think this is related to moderation in two ways:

One is that it’s probably an unavoidable consequence of a light-handed approach to moderation. I don’t want heavy-handed moderation, but in its absence, there are too many posts that take advantage. I don’t know what to do about that, other than to try to suggest and model the kind of behavior I think we say we want to see here: friendly, respectful, and fun. Unfortunately, it feels like less of those things recently.

The other is that it’s especially important that moderators in particular model that behavior. Yes, moderators are posters too, and yes, they’re only human. But being a moderator does entail some extra responsibilities, and I think one of them is to be among the best of the posters, to encourage good posting by example. This also seems worse more recently, at least compared to what I remember before my break.

That’s it. Obviously, this is my very subjective impression, and I could be entirely wrong. But since it’s a thread about the subject of moderation, I thought I’d give my two cents, to be considered, and even to be discarded if need be. Thanks for listening.

 

[under_score]

Did we read the same thread? Tristram's snark is pretty mild, and generally an appropriate balance between levity and arguing his side, which I'd never expect him to be disallowed doing because he's a mod, while silva kept escalating his anger and insults.
I really hope a few easily outraged posters don't push this forum into heavier moderation. There are other places for that.

 

[TheophilusCarter]

Did we read the same thread?

Who, me? I'm thinking of threads, plural.
As always, I could be wrong.

 

[under_score]

Uh, the collective we I guess. I'm on my phone so having trouble cross referencing people and threads, but I'm mostly referring to the D&D thread this was spawned from.
You'll have to be more specific in your complaints for me to comment on them, but based on my own experiences here, I have to disagree with your wants in regards to the moderation.

 

[TheophilusCarter]

Uh, the collective we I guess. I'm on my phone so having trouble cross referencing people and threads, but I'm mostly referring to the D&D thread this was spawned from.
You'll have to be more specific in your complaints for me to comment on them, but based on my own experiences here, I have to disagree with your wants in regards to the moderation.

I don't think we're disagreeing about the principles. I also said I don't want heavy-handed moderation; I would like stronger modeling behavior. It sounds like our perceptions of the problem are different, though, and that's cool: I already admitted that they are very subjective.

 

[under_score]

And I certainly don't want this to sound like a "don't let the door hit you" attitude, because I really can't think of any posters off hand I'd just rather not be here at all, but I'm very wary of pushing the forum culture here to resemble the forum culture elsewhere when those alternatives are already an option if that's what you need.

 

[TheophilusCarter]

And I certainly don't want this to sound like a "don't let the door hit you" attitude, because I really can't think of any posters off hand I'd just rather not be here at all, but I'm very wary of pushing the forum culture here to resemble the forum culture elsewhere when those alternatives are already an option if that's what you need.

That's an option. Another option is that we address issues, if any, on this forum. A place can be great, but still be improved.
To be clear: none of this is personal. I don't feel that any of what I'm talking about has been directed at me specifically. But when I care about a place, I also want it to be its best, so if someone asks, I'll give my opinion for consideration.

 

[CRKrueger]

A few months ago, I came back to the Pub after a break of about a year. I said it was for a social media break, but that was only part of the story. I also needed a break from the Pub. I felt that the tone had become increasingly less friendly and inclusive (I mean in the gaming sense), with way too much shitposting in threads about games that people don’t like just to say how much they don’t like them, way too much One True Wayism, and so forth. When I returned, I had hoped to see things had improved, but if anything, I feel like it’s worse. I think this is related to moderation in two ways:

One is that it’s probably an unavoidable consequence of a light-handed approach to moderation. I don’t want heavy-handed moderation, but in its absence, there are too many posts that take advantage. I don’t know what to do about that, other than to try to suggest and model the kind of behavior I think we say we want to see here: friendly, respectful, and fun. Unfortunately, it feels like less of those things recently.

The other is that it’s especially important that moderators in particular model that behavior. Yes, moderators are posters too, and yes, they’re only human. But being a moderator does entail some extra responsibilities, and I think one of them is to be among the best of the posters, to encourage good posting by example. This also seems worse more recently, at least compared to what I remember before my break.

That’s it. Obviously, this is my very subjective impression, and I could be entirely wrong. But since it’s a thread about the subject of moderation, I thought I’d give my two cents, to be considered, and even to be discarded if need be. Thanks for listening.

If someone says something you disagree with, then post and disagree with them. If you don’t feel like disagreeing with them, then what do you want people to do, walk on eggshells and not express their opinion?

Except for one or two flameouts, the discussion here about games themselves is pretty mild. If the Pub is too rough, I just don’t what to tell you.

 

[CRKrueger]

That's an option. Another option is that we address issues, if any, on this forum. A place can be great, but still be improved.
To be clear: none of this is personal. I don't feel that any of what I'm talking about has been directed at me specifically. But when I care about a place, I also want it to be its best, so if someone asks, I'll give my opinion for consideration.

We can’t improve anything if the goal is “more inclusive” or “too many shitposts”, because those have zero meaning. To have a goal for improving the forum, you have to be specific, as in quoted examples.

 

[Dumarest]

So "Seduction" attempts often looked more like "I drop my pants to....".

Works for some of us.

And I certainly don't want this to sound like a "don't let the door hit you" attitude, because I really can't think of any posters off hand I'd just rather not be here at all...

Try harder!

If the Pub is too rough, I just don’t what to tell you.

There's always http://www.wishbear.net/

 

[Ladybird]

I'll be honest, I'm not sure if you're being pedantic, or I'm being unfair in this case. I realize I was very flippant in the previous "sex moves" thread, and playing for laughs. (But in both those threads I'll note that Silva chose to bring up rape examples specifically)

If it upsets you this much, however, I will refrain from joking about these rules in the future.

It's cool, I don't think it's beyond mockery, just... mock it for what it actually is, you know?

Anyway, thus endeth my minor and petty quibble.

If someone says something you disagree with, then post and disagree with them. If you don’t feel like disagreeing with them, then what do you want people to do, walk on eggshells and not express their opinion?

Except for one or two flameouts, the discussion here about games themselves is pretty mild. If the Pub is too rough, I just don’t what to tell you.

Yeah, I think it's fair to say CRKrueger and I disagree on a fair few things, but there's not really much point in a discussion forum where everybody just agrees with each other.

 

[Endless Flight]

I think instead of asking moderators to change their personalities, which I’m kind of implying from some posts, I think a possible answer is to maybe get another moderator. It seems some of you don’t want a moderator that’s involved in conversations to actually moderate those discussions when it’s necessary. Thus we need more eyes. Not all of us are here every minute of every hour and we all are watching over the place at different times. If you want me to add somebody, it’s an option. I’m not going to ask these guys to be different people though.

 

[Fenris-77]

I am prepared to take up the onerous duty of mocking people in your absence. You have but to ask my liege.

Edit : that's not me asking to be a mod. Yikes. I'll stick to light mockery.

 

[OHT]

Raleel
Tommy Brownell

 

[Voros]

None of us are perfect and with one of the strengths of this forum being the wide range of games discussed, including systems like Fate, PbtA and Mythras...even Harn! This is honestly the only place I know on the net where we can do that. It is really special and something we need to value and sustain.

I expect to get some minor groaning from those who dislike certain systems but as long as it doesn't derail conversations and descends into shitposting and trolling I'm willing to give it a pass.

Honestly setting some of the few aggro members who aren't really here for constructive and open discussions to Ignore also helps a lot.

I used to be a 'never set to Ignore type' but the likes of Dumarest convinced me otherwise.

Tristram can be a bit abrasive at time, as can I and all of us on the right day, but I can see how that can rub some wrong since he's a mod but I don't think he steps over the line personally.

The only thing I can say is that I don't want silva to leave the forum or for Tristram to feel like he has to hold his tongue because he's a mod. So not really a solution, sorry!

 

[Dumarest]

Pick me! Pick me!

 

[Lundgren]

I've read on of those threads now, and I'm thinking part of the problem can be linguistic. Different cultural areas put a bit of different values in a word or phrase. So first there had been some chafing over things like the use of passive (when I think "reactive" would had been a better phrase), which had built up some frustration. Which then contributed to not take what was very possible meant as obvious somewhat friendly sarcasm and light-hearted mockery as potentially anything but.

The Pub has people from all over the world, so besides the point we might have quite a wide range when it comes to people skills; we have a varied level of grasp of the English language, and several different cultures. Just because some of us non-native speakers can use a pretty much correct English might not mean we can handle the nuances. Sometimes we manage to navigate around a word, sometimes we hope the nuance of what we want to say will be clear from the context. That tend to happen even between speakers of different versions of English, as there are quite some differences between the different English speaking countries.

Then, when two or more persons start to get annoyed at each other and the willingness to put in that extra effort, its easy to start reading things into a statement that wasn't intended.

Now, both The Big Purple and Mos Eisley have their solutions on this. To either have everyone walk on eggshells and warn or ban anyone that says anything that remotely says anything that can be taken as offensive in any corner of the world; or have insult slinging a standard part of the discourse which would drown out any mistaken meaning.

Unless the Pub want to go in either of those directions (and many of us are here because the Pub isn't like either of those), all we really can do is to help each other remember we all come from very different places and misunderstanding will happens. Things will blow up at times, and all we can do is to try to catch it before it happens and try to handle it as good as possible after it have happened. And it will happen again.

 

[Dumarest]

I can't understand a blessed thing @Voros writes, can we just ban him already?

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Random thoughts, I have them in spades.

I have absolutely no issue with anyone in this spat. I don't actually have an issue with any other poster on the board. I think there are maybe people who have done my head in occasionally (neither of whom are involved in this discussion) but I ranted a bit in private and got over it. Bad form though it is to mention your blocklist, I don't mind saying mine is non existent. I mention this to be clear that I really don't have any need to "take sides" in this.

I think it's unreasonable to expect Tristam or any mod to act as some kind of representative of the forum. I'm not going to get all Big Purple with a thread of praise where you don't want to be the first to stop applauding. But equally, I don't see being a mod as some kind of bonus.

I don't have any issues with Tristam's modding. I think I've disagreed with one call he's made. I can go into detail on that if people want, but honestly I don't care. (Considering I've had around 12 suspensions over on BGG it's remarkable I haven't got in more fights with the mods).

As a poster, you (Tristam) are prone to being a bit abrasive and your banter can tend towards the sharp insulting side. For myself, I'm fine with that. But there are times I feel that if someone obviously isn't liking it you could do with dropping it rather than doubling down. But take that on board or dismiss it as you see fit. It doesn't have anything to do with your role as a mod and ability to do that.

A lot of the problem is moderation of threads you've been in as a poster, especially argumentative ones. This isn't about moderating badly. But it's only natural that if you've been in a confrontation with another poster and that poster takes a mod decision like moving posts you're going to feel badly done by because of that. The idea of taking on more mods to avoid this is a very good one.

In terms of Silva and Tristam specifically, it's unfortunate the ignore option isn't available. An effective ignore would probably be best where you just pretend the other person doesn't exist. Including with moderation; it's pretty obvious that you two are getting on so badly that any moderation action is going to increase the tension. (Within reason, obviously. If Silva starts posting hardcore pr0n it would need instantly modding, but I can't think of any feasible scenarios where it would have to happen immediately).

Are people talking about sex moves again? Seriously? Can you not just send each other n00dz like normal people?

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Addendum:

If we're doing our dream mod team I would like to add Tulpa Girl and Rob Conley to the list.

 

[Tommy Brownell]

Raleel
Tommy Brownell

OHT, you're a great guy, and I think a lot of you, from The RPG Site to now...but your second choice on that list would be a monumentally terrible idea for multiple reasons.

 

[OHT]

OHT, you're a great guy, and I think a lot of you, from The RPG Site to now...but your second choice on that list would be a monumentally terrible idea for multiple reasons.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

I posted in that Sex Moves thread. A post about the sex rules in a spanish game called Libido. I fully expected it to be made fun off, because people in general can't talk about sex in a serious way. Unless you go to forum where the subject is sex.

I really like the relaxed and non-serious tone this forum has. I think it helps us all to remember we are on a forum discussing elfgames, and therefore not take it too serious. Can the joke posting from posters like Tristam and Dumarest sometimes get to much? Yeah sure.
But I have never seen or interpreted it as personal mockery of someone.

I can't see any RPG related thing, I would hesitate to post about on this forum. Unlike other rpgforums on the internet.

Maybe one forum rule that could be made, is that a moderator can't moderate a thread he has participated in. Just to avoid confusion.

I can't see how that "I drop my pants" seduction technique can work, unless you like hearing "Aww that's cute" or seeing them run away in terror.
Back when I frequented a lot of discos, it was enough to just go out on the dance floor and swing my manly booty.

 

[Endless Flight]

Maybe one forum rule that could be made, is that a moderator can't moderate a thread he has participated in. Just to avoid confusion.

I think that would be an impossible rule to follow unless you want mods to be like Big Brother watching you.

 

[Raleel]

@Raleel

when I was summoned here, I figured it was to talk about a thick hardcover called Mythic Sex Acts or something, not to get suggested as a mod.

 

[Tulpa Girl]

If we're doing our dream mod team I would like to add Tulpa Girl

Oh hells no.

 

[Séadna]

Oh hells no.

Are you really still sour over the vetoing of the "Hunks of the OSR" thread?

 

[Endless Flight]

So this is what we have now and for those of you who may not know who does what:

Endless Flight: Admin/Super Mod
Apparition: Admin
TristramEvans: Super Mod
Baulderstone: Super Mod

Super Mods can mod anything on the site. What I decided to do a while ago if we expanded the staff was to add mods to specific forums to keep staff flow. So what I was thinking was adding two mods and then it would look like this:


Endless Flight: Admin/Super Mod
Apparition: Admin
TristramEvans: Super Mod
Baulderstone: Super Mod
Mod 1: Main Forum/Other Forum of choice
Mod 2: Main Forum/Other Forum of choice

That way Main would have more than enough coverage to last us a long while and keeps the new mods from getting overwhelmed.

 

[Tommy Brownell]

when I was summoned here, I figured it was to talk about a thick hardcover called Mythic Sex Acts or something, not to get suggested as a mod.

Hell, I thought for a second OHT was complaining about me when I saw the title of the thread, and I was wondering what the Hell I had done.

 

[Dumarest]

I heard Apparition is just one Vespa away from Super Mod status!

​

 

[TristramEvans]

I'm still partial to the Modbot idea

It would remove the whole "when you're a poster you're acting as a representative of the forum" thing

 

[Endless Flight]

Actually Apparition told me he just wanted to be an admin so he wouldn’t get an itchy trigger finger and ban Dumarest if he was made a super mod.

 

[OHT]

Hell, I thought for a second OHT was complaining about me when I saw the title of the thread, and I was wondering what the Hell I had done.

Compliments are far more embarrassing innit.

 

[Tommy Brownell]

Compliments are far more embarrassing innit.

Nah, I genuinely appreciated the vote of confidence in me.

 

[Endless Flight]

I'm still partial to the Modbot idea

It would remove the whole "when you're a poster you're acting as a representative of the forum" thing