Moderation Issues

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Bunch said:
First sign of a responsible person when offered a job demanding responsibility is for them to reject it. They actually have a clue what they're signing up for.
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While I agree with that sentiment in general, in my case it's just a honest assessment of my temperament and abilities. While not as bad as I once was, I am conflict-adverse by nature. And while the modding here is reasonably hands-off, there are still times when a moderator wouldn't have the luxury of just stepping back when a fracas starts. That's not undue self-depreciation on my part, just the blunt knowledge of where my strengths don't lie.
 
Also, as a general comment, I think another issue is that while all games are discussed here, there definitely are more people who prefer traditional games here, and as far as I can tell, the entire moderator group prefers traditional games.

This isn't to say that there is a bias, but it is much easier to feel piled on about stuff like "sex moves" when the majority of the forum seems to look down on them and a moderator is joining in on the jabs. And then people who like more narrative games feel alienated, they start getting more defensive, and then everyone goes "see, those narrative rpg people are just so whiney" and then creates a cycle of them feeling more and more alienated and acting out worse and worse.

And I'm not saying that the moderation staff's personal taste in games creates bias, but it can create the appearance of bias, which is still a problem when it comes to how people react.

Idk, just thoughts. I guess the conclusion should be "Maybe look at moderators who like narrative games" but at the same time, I don't necessarily think that would be the best choice of moderator, as they are a smaller pool of people on the forums.
 
I prefer games I grew up with. They are considered “traditional” games. If I grew up twenty years later I might really have been into Fate, Cortex...but never that 2d20! Doesn’t mean I don’t support discussing those games here. On the contrary, I’ve learned more from others here about them and appreciate how RPGs have evolved to suit different people’s tastes. Celebrate!
 
Endless Flight said:
I prefer games I grew up with. They are considered “traditional” games. If I grew up twenty years later I might really have been into Fate, Cortex...but never that 2d20! Doesn’t mean I don’t support discussing those games here. On the contrary, I’ve learned more from others here about them and appreciate how RPGs have evolved to suit different people’s tastes. Celebrate!
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I think it's more about perception. It's certainly the case that I don't get the impression that the mods are really into games like Apocalypse World. Which tends away from my taste as well, but I can see why those people might be a bit more sensitive about it. Especially if they've come via the site which obviously brings particular baggage as far as storygames are concerned.
 
You will never ever see the Pub put certain RPGs in a forum called “story games”. We can’t control what every member is going to say about certain games but as far as moderation goes we are very clear on the issue.
 
It's funny, I grew up in the 80's and started on all the standard stuff, D&D, Marvel, Cyberpunk, etc. I also played a ton of GW games. Then I took break from both hobbies. I was working, three kids, I'm sure lots of you have the same story story. When I got back into RPGs I found my tastes had changed. I still love and play D&D, but my interests tend to be far more in the direction of narrative games these days, PtbA stuff especially, but also some flavors of FATE and Gumshoe (plus numerous other indie offerings). I also read a lot more RPGs than I use to, both for enjoyment and also to steal mechanics and whatnot. I've learned a lot about game design and what makes RPGS tick, and also what I actually like and what mechanics support that, since I broadened my horizons. So yeah, celebrate for sure.
 
Endless Flight said:
You will never ever see the Pub put certain RPGs in a forum called “story games”. We can’t control what every member is going to say about certain games but as far as moderation goes we are very clear on the issue.
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Yes but I think that's a different than the comments saying non traditional games get less personal support from admins and see more jabs. That's fine on a personal level but if it's seen repeatedly then the FATE, AW, etc lovers disappear for more receptive places. I don't want that. So the obvious solution to me is find a mod who does prefer them so they see administrative love OR refrain from snark/negative comments if you're a mod and you just don't like the game.
I think failing to do that you will begin to circle the group think drain that makes everywhere suck more.
My 2 cents.
 
Any significant RPG population is going to skew towards traditional games, because D&D is a traditional game. But looking at the most recent two pages of the main forum, I don't think the forum is skewed very heavily as far as topics.

The last OSR thread we had was started by....Silva.

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One thing I think needs to be kept in mind is that the pub is a private space not a public one. It is in particular Endless Flight's forum. And we are graciously allowed to post here. I think we've all had enough of over moderated, biased forums where blithering idiots play god to build up their fragile egos. So I think we need to add a rule. It goes like this "take a deep breath before posting and remember: this is a friendly place and nobody wants it to turn into an unfriendly place."
 
If members wanted to start threads about Fate or Cortex until the first page was filled I wouldn’t have a problem with that. I don’t see where it’s required that moderation needs to love certain RPGs. I wouldn’t even want to put a qualifier on a candidate for a mod position. I pick the person I think would moderate the best, not the one who likes certain RPGs.
 
EmperorNorton said:
Also, as a general comment, I think another issue is that while all games are discussed here, there definitely are more people who prefer traditional games here, and as far as I can tell, the entire moderator group prefers traditional games.

This isn't to say that there is a bias, but it is much easier to feel piled on about stuff like "sex moves"
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I mean, obviously that's the relevant example in this thread, but the thing is, if it's the only example, then I'd suggest that it's not narrative mechanics that are getting mocked.
 
Bunch said:
Yes but I think that's a different than the comments saying non traditional games get less personal support from admins and see more jabs. That's fine on a personal level but if it's seen repeatedly then the FATE, AW, etc lovers disappear for more receptive places. I don't want that. So the obvious solution to me is find a mod who does prefer them so they see administrative love OR refrain from snark/negative comments if you're a mod and you just don't like the game.
I think failing to do that you will begin to circle the group think drain that makes everywhere suck more.
My 2 cents.
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And we have our slogan!
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The rpgpub is your friend. The rpgpub wants you to be happy. If you are not happy the rpg pub will use you for witty jibes and smarmy memes. You are a moderator, your job is to protect the rpgpub from story gamers and grognards. You have a ban hammer. You are also a story gamer and a grognard. Your friends are all moderators they also have ban hammers...
 
1. I didn't say there was bias in moderation, only that there could appear to be.
2. Responding to every comment about that possible perception with "no there is no problem" does nothing but make it easier to perceive things that way.
3. I even pointed out that liking certain games is probably not the best way to choose a moderator. I don't really know the solution.

Honestly, I still can understand why narrative gamers can get touchy here. There is a heavy lean towards traditional here, and that extends to the moderators. The people who tend to like traditional and are still respected members of the forum are definitely the minority. Like even if it is unintentional, some threads can really feel like dogpiles.

The problem comes when you end up with situations like Silva or Stevethulhu. They have a specific perception of the forums, and that colors everything they do. Is it fair? Probably not. But I can't say I've never felt that there was a bias here either. And I'm sure Endless's PMs can attest to that.

And the problem is, that perception problem goes both ways. It's really annoying for me personally when I might agree with Silva's main point, but he's being an ass or has lost the thread of his main point so hard that he's gone overboard, so I don't want to be associated with it. I don't want people to perceive me in the same light they perceive him.
 
It occurs to me that we all likely suffer from a certain degree of post traumatic stress disorder when it comes to forum moderation and culture. We've all got pet peeves. A couple years ago I got a real dressing down on the sjgames forums for complaining about the way that you can't say anything negative about D&D on some forums but people endlessly drop into GURPS and Rolemaster threads to crap on them and that's okay some how. I'm not saying the moderator was wrong, I was over the line. It still pisses me off a bit but I know I was over the line.

The point being we've all got some sore spots when it comes to discussing these games that we love a bit too much. Let's face it, normal people aren't spending their lives discussing rpgs on line. We're passionate about them and we've got our tastes and biases and there's things we're defensive about and there's things we can't stand because we had bad experiences with them and at some point we've got to accept that what works for us and ours doesn't necessarily work for everyone. We need to chill out and learn to laugh at ourselves a bit let the rest of the world tear itself apart over politics and philosophies. We're not doing important work here. We're not saving the world. Nobody is going to die if we don't make our stand on the slippery slope of sex move mechanics here and now. We're trying to have fun and share our love of silly, geeky games and media. Some people won't like the same things and some will, and it's no big deal.
 
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EmperorNorton said:
It's really annoying for me personally when I might agree with Silva's main point, but he's being an ass or has lost the thread of his main point so hard that he's gone overboard, so I don't want to be associated with it. I don't want people to perceive me in the same light they perceive him.
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Just for the record, I don't lump people together like that.
 
David Johansen David Johansen I don't think you are wrong. I mean my method of getting here was TBP to Pundit's House of Pain, to here.

And honestly if that hasn't colored my perception of moderation on RPG forums I don't think anything would.
 
EmperorNorton said:
David Johansen David Johansen I don't think you are wrong. I mean my method of getting here was TBP to Pundit's House of Pain, to here.

And honestly if that hasn't colored my perception of moderation on RPG forums I don't think anything would.
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Part of that is why this very thread exists though. I'd be lying if I said a lot of my moderation choices couldn't be summed up as "think of how they would do it, and do the opposite."
 
Tulpa Girl said:
While I agree with that sentiment in general, in my case it's just a honest assessment of my temperament and abilities. While not as bad as I once was, I am conflict-adverse by nature. And while the modding here is reasonably hands-off, there are still times when a moderator wouldn't have the luxury of just stepping back when a fracas starts. That's not undue self-depreciation on my part, just the blunt knowledge of where my strengths don't currently lie.
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Fixed that for you!
 
Everyone takes jabs, not just the narrative peeps. They are however the ones that cry foul the loudest and most often.
Some “jabs“ are jabs.
Some “jabs” are just thin skin.
Some “jabs“ are “let me step in and be offended for another group”.

If the narrative peeps are so conflict averse, maybe they want to stop kicking things off with classics like...

“This <traditional game X that I don’t like or play> can’t run <a type of setting or campaign that people have run with that system for decades> because it doesn’t have <custom narrative mechanics>.
or
”This game <designed with obvious narrative mechanics> is totally traditional in every way.”

You kind of notice how most of the time when the flames start burning, it was some variant of those that started it?
Just sayin’
 
Huh, well, as to the first point, if you took a screwdriver out of your tool box and want to complain it won't pound nails, I don't think that's an issue with either the screwdriver or the nails. As to the second, that just reaffirms my thought that some people don't know their tools. I think it's a poor craftsman that blames his tools. I don't think that fans of more narrative games are mostly poor craftsmen though. There's a vocal subset of idiots in every group.
 
I don't want to see us divide in narrative vs traditional gamer camps here anymore than I want political tribalism to infect the board.

Everyone's had bad experiences with zealots and bad faith actors on both sides of that spectrum in the past, but the less we hold onto those grudges and carry them over to The Pub, the better.

Because it really is a spectrum that's represented here at The Pub, and that's the way I like it.
 
And here is the thing, that whole "It's narrative gamers that are the problem" attitude from Krueger is doing basically exactly what I was talking about when talking about perception of the forum.

Also, I don't think there is anything as "thin skinned" as burning down a thread because someone classifies a game differently than you so... Maybe the issue isn't one sided.
 
EmperorNorton said:
And here is the thing, that whole "It's narrative gamers that are the problem" attitude from Krueger is doing basically exactly what I was talking about when talking about perception of the forum.

Also, I don't think there is anything as "thin skinned" as burning down a thread because someone classifies a game differently than you so... Maybe the issue isn't one sided.
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I didn’t see Rob Conley creating a thread to mod bitch then ragequit about being called a D&D Zealot. :wink:
 
EmperorNorton said:
And here is the thing, that whole "It's narrative gamers that are the problem" attitude from Krueger is doing basically exactly what I was talking about when talking about perception of the forum.
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Well, I mean Krueger's gonna Krueger. When he starts trolling threads devoted to narrative games, we'll look at that, but otherwise he's entitled to his opinion on games, same as anyone else. But he alone can't be responsible for the perception of the entire site.

Also, I don't think there is anything as "thin skinned" as burning down a thread because someone classifies a game differently than you so... Maybe the issue isn't one sided.
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Which thread do you mean?
 
I mean to be fair, Silva also didn't create this thread, it was pulled form another thread. I don't agree with how he handled it, but I just want to be accurate in what he did.
 
TristramEvans said:
Which thread do you mean?
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I was just generically responding to his comment that threads go to shit because someone calls a game that has narrative mechanics a traditional game. Basically, if that is the reason that things are going to shit, then the problem isn't one sided :smile:.

I was just taking a poke at his "but it's always narrative people who are thin skinned" while also saying that calling a game the wrong classification is "why threads burn to the ground".
 
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