Moderation Issues

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My problem with Silva was resorting to name calling. There’s no reason to call someone a coward who you are having a conversation with, mod or not. It was disingenuous. I don’t know why he thinks Tristram should play it straight and not joke around with him because Tristram is a mod. I’m not sure where that thinking comes from. If Tristram isn’t modding him for anything and is only acting as a poster, what’s the problem? I mean, if somebody is confused about what is a mod post, we could use that dreaded red text that’s so popular elsewhere.
 
Yeah, this thread was my creation, sorry if that wasn't clear. I posted notes to that effect on the first page.

I thought it was the fairest way to deal with any further posts on this topic that were bringing down that thread, but didn't want to appear to be "silencing" any legitimate complaints about me as a mod.
 
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Endless Flight said:
My problem with Silva was resorting to name calling. There’s no reason to call someone a coward who you are having a conversation with, mod or not. It was disingenuous. I don’t know why he thinks Tristram should play it straight and not joke around with him because Tristram is a mod. I’m not sure where that thinking comes from. If Tristram isn’t modding him for anything and is only acting as a poster, what’s the problem? I mean, if somebody is confused about what is a mod post, we could use that dreaded red text that’s so popular elsewhere.
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Android forums moderators are sadly still about fifty years away, I reckon.
 
Endless Flight said:
My problem with Silva was resorting to name calling. There’s no reason to call someone a coward who you are having a conversation with, mod or not. It was disingenuous. I don’t know why he thinks Tristram should play it straight and not joke around with him because Tristram is a mod. I’m not sure where that thinking comes from. If Tristram isn’t modding him for anything and is only acting as a poster, what’s the problem? I mean, if somebody is confused about what is a mod post, we could use that dreaded red text...
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My perception, once he blew up, was that Silva held some resentment towards me for that thread about boardgames a few months back.

The thing is, if he had just straight out said to me "I'm uncomfortable with you mocking me like this" or however it was he percieved it, I would have gladly have, if not apologized, acquiesced to his request. But what's curious about it to me is that if you look at the thread, post #569 is where I make the only joke at his expense, in the midst of several of us joshing around at the same time, but then Post #586 after that he's just talking to me normally, no indication he's angry or upset at all.

s6.JPG

I mean, does that seem like the response of someone angry with me or at the end of their ropes?

And that's literally all of our interactions until the first post in this thread where he goes off about how horrible a moderator I am, and it's pure escalation for a page until he ragequits.

I dunno, something just seems...off...about the whole thing.
 
The way I see it is thus. We have some posters here who get in that boat, row to the middle of the pond, cast the line and just troll the day away until that line is good and hooked. Then they reel it in.
We all seem to take the bait from time to time and currently we all seem a bit more on edge because, you know... the world kind of ended.
I've got a couple on the ignore list because I determined after a few interactions that they contributed to my blood pressure increasing. But all in all... it's not that bad here.

Often that line is baited with the so called story game stuff (Sorry I don't know another way to phrase it) like the reference to the highly overt and squicky... um... forced seduction rules. A certain poster who shall remain nameless was wielding them like a cudgel. You really can't cry foul when you do that and get called on it.
That particular topic has a place, it can be brought in naturally on a tangent or it can threadjack. I've seen it threadjack more than come up naturally.

Look at it this way, and I'm using a mild example. You are posting about a D&D mechanic and looking for help but someone comes in and says "This other game with a totally different playstyle does that and more,... Oh, and here is a random NSFW example of it doing something unrelated to this thread" I think its natural to get a bit defensive.
Its not a bias in that case, its a reaction. It can become an over reaction, but it is still a reaction.
 
Is there a discernable difference between a troll and a crusading zealot? Bad faith isn't always easy to detect. I mean sure, if someone is constantly schilling their WFRP retro-clone and derails everything just to bring it up again it's pretty obvious. But let's say you've got a died in the wool D&D hater who has to explain that armour making you harder to hit is stupid in every single D&D thread ever. (a little self parody there, I resemble that remark) is that any different than the troll who does so because it's a guaranteed flame war and they just bought popcorn?
 
David Johansen said:
Is there a discernable difference between a troll and a crusading zealot? Bad faith isn't always easy to detect. I mean sure, if someone is constantly schilling their WFRP retro-clone and derails everything just to bring it up again it's pretty obvious. But let's say you've got a died in the wool D&D hater who has to explain that armour making you harder to hit is stupid in every single D&D thread ever. (a little self parody there, I resemble that remark) is that any different than the troll who does so because it's a guaranteed flame war and they just bought popcorn?
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It's still trolling.
Honestly our behavior and learning to correct it is up to us, not others. If someone is trolling in good faith, they are still trolling and we are still within our rights to call them on it. What they do after also matters, but still... a troll is a troll is a troll.
 
I mean, I have had my zealot moments (I still hate ThAC0 with a passion... and my first RPG was 2e AD&D), and I agree, sometimes things can look like bad faith that aren't.
 
EmperorNorton said:
I mean, I have had my zealot moments (I still hate ThAC0 with a passion... and my first RPG was 2e AD&D), and I agree, sometimes things can look like bad faith that aren't.
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Sure, and if you get called on that and correct it, where is the harm?
Its when you choose to do it over and over again after it's been pointed out that it becomes an issue.
Even still, you are still in control of your own behavior. It's like the people who act poorly to people and then cry out "you aren't respecting my feelings" when they are called out for it.
We are adults, so while we may not always have control of our emotions or outbursts, we do have control of our behavior.
 
Endless Flight said:
My problem with Silva was resorting to name calling. There’s no reason to call someone a coward who you are having a conversation with, mod or not. It was disingenuous. I don’t know why he thinks Tristram should play it straight and not joke around with him because Tristram is a mod. I’m not sure where that thinking comes from. If Tristram isn’t modding him for anything and is only acting as a poster, what’s the problem? I mean, if somebody is confused about what is a mod post, we could use that dreaded red text that’s so popular elsewhere.
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That thinking comes from being an adult?
Look at it this way do you want the Lifeguard to be in the pool horse-playing around or would you rather have the Lifeguard watching over and doing the small talk with the parents?

At what point is the joking around being done to provoke a mod-able action? When you keep excusing the actions you are encouraging those same actions to continue.
 
Do you want your mod to be an engaged and active member of a community he likes, or that he be forced to not engage with that community except in his role as mod? How would you ever get a good moderator out of that equation? Saying you can only be a mod if you dont have the same fun as the rest of us isn't a good answer.
 
I don't think we need to be raising mods up to some hallowed position where they are expected to exemplify all that is Good and Pure in the Pub. I enjoy the contributions of all the of mods as regular posters and wouldn't want them censoring themselves. They're not running around modding against everyone they disagree with so why should it matter if they dislike your favorite game or make jokes about something you enjoy? None of this stuff is really all that serious.
 
David Johansen said:
One thing I think needs to be kept in mind is that the pub is a private space not a public one. It is in particular Endless Flight's forum. And we are graciously allowed to post here. I think we've all had enough of over moderated, biased forums where blithering idiots play god to build up their fragile egos. So I think we need to add a rule. It goes like this "take a deep breath before posting and remember: this is a friendly place and nobody wants it to turn into an unfriendly place."
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While I appreciate the fact Endless set this forum up and keeps it going, I'm not comfortable with the "this is his forum and he allows us to post here as a benevolent overlord" argument. We've seen where that kind of stuff leads elsewhere. This forum is also the posters and the content they provide. And I suspect Endless wouldn't disagree - I doubt he wants to preside over an empty forum!
 
Also, as Kruger seems to be getting a bit of a roasting in this thread I want it on the record he's someone I actively enjoy engaging with. Because sometimes I like a hard debate and I know I can get into it with him properly without any grudges or effect on how we are in the future.

I totally get that his uber in your face posting style isn't for everyone and there are times where I think he could do with remembering that. But that's what the ignore feature is supposed to be there for.
 
Endless Flight said:
I think that would be an impossible rule to follow unless you want mods to be like Big Brother watching you.
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I thought so myself after posting. It would create problems in threads were al the staff has commented. For example, I think the entire has commented in the Star Wars thread.

A solution another forum I have been on used, was to that moderators had a moderator and a personal profile. Basically the only publicly known staff there were the admins. But it's probably a bit too late for something like that here.

I just can't see the bias that others see here, but maybe I'm just completely tonedeaf. Maybe it's just because the posters giving that impression posts a lot. But I don't see any kind of tribalism here, and really wish there never will be.
The tribalism infecting the internet in general, is the reason that there is very few places i go on the net anymore.

One problem I do see here, is that some posters carry baggage and grievances with them from other forums. I lurked on The Site some years ago, and I recognize a lot of names fom back then. Especially that Krueger and Silva had the same disputes over there.

Alsp people stop taking these discussions about elfgames so damm serious and personal. I knoe it's very popular to make everything you like and do, some part of your identity. But just because something dislikes or mocks something you like it's not a personal attack.
Secondly, I you feel someone oversteps your personal bounds, just tell them straight up. I feel most members here would apologize and/or at least back off. At least if they're adults.
 
Baulderstone said:
You really are a petty, little child, Krueger.
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The petty children are...
  • The people who announce their block lists.
  • Dramatically leave threads after making a dozen final attacks.
  • Ragequit forums.
  • Find any excuse to snipe their favorite targets, while taking the high road. :wink:
Someone ragequits the forum and announces it to the world, they get Curly Bill. It’s better than they deserve.

BTW, people, here’s how you interact with a mod that doesn’t like you. As long as he’s not modding you because of that dislike, if he jabs, you jab back.

EDIT: Besides, Silva will be back eventually, he’ll realize he blew his stack and the embarrassment will wear off.
 
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EmperorNorton said:
I was just generically responding to his comment that threads go to shit because someone calls a game that has narrative mechanics a traditional game. Basically, if that is the reason that things are going to shit, then the problem isn't one sided :smile:.

I was just taking a poke at his "but it's always narrative people who are thin skinned" while also saying that calling a game the wrong classification is "why threads burn to the ground".
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Minor quibble, because I’ve found myself in the same situation. You’re using quotes as tagging a phrase or classifying a behavior, not quoting a person, because you’re definitely not quoting me, you‘re summarizing your characterization of what I said (incorrectly, btw, but we’ll wait on that).

Sometimes when people do that, people respond with ”strawman” or “you‘re deliberately misquoting me”.

I don’t know what to do about the issue. The quote block is too clumsy a tool for that. Maybe italics for the coining a phrase type of quote, and quotes for direct quote? Dunno.
 
CRKrueger said:
The petty children are...
  • The people who announce their block lists.
  • Dramatically leave threads after making a dozen final attacks.
  • Ragequit forums.
  • Find any excuse to snipe their favorite targets, while taking the high road. :wink:
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Oh good, I'm only guilty of one of those. That gets me extra credit, right?
 
Stevethulhu said:
It's not just Silva. I'm sure half a dozen other people can claim to have been on the receiving end of the same treatment.
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Endless Flight said:
My problem with Silva was resorting to name calling. There’s no reason to call someone a coward who you are having a conversation with, mod or not. It was disingenuous. I don’t know why he thinks Tristram should play it straight and not joke around with him because Tristram is a mod. I’m not sure where that thinking comes from. If Tristram isn’t modding him for anything and is only acting as a poster, what’s the problem? I mean, if somebody is confused about what is a mod post, we could use that dreaded red text that’s so popular elsewhere.
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Red line... Shudders... I understand the need to deliniate opinion from modding but there has got to be a better way.
 
Ronnie Sanford said:
Red line... Shudders... I understand the need to deliniate opinion from modding but there has got to be a better way.
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If you're going to do it, I suggest avoiding that particular style.

This was used on the old LARP forum Pagga.

[mod hat on]Both of you need to chill it a bit.[/mod hat off]

It's a bit less formal. And in less serious situations the mods would sometimes mess around with the format with stuff like [mod hat wo
 
Faylar said:
It's still trolling.
Honestly our behavior and learning to correct it is up to us, not others. If someone is trolling in good faith, they are still trolling and we are still within our rights to call them on it. What they do after also matters, but still... a troll is a troll is a troll.
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Yeah, I don't see it that way. Some times poor CRKrueger CRKrueger gets called a troll when he is making a very obvious and pragmatic point. A troll is not a troll. A troll is a person that intentionally tries to inflame a conversation. Not a person that is making a logical point that can be analyzed. Now you might argue that the people discussing D&D's armor rules might not want to hear that and maybe the person interjecting should realize that but its stil not trolling.
 
Personally I think the comments from Richard Hamming on the importance of fitting in/ not letting your appearance and manners distract from the message is worth keeping in mind.

"You should dress according to the expectations of the audience spoken to. If I am going to give an address at the MIT computer center, I dress with a bolo and an old corduroy jacket or something else. I know enough not to let my clothes, my appearance, my manners get in the way of what I care about."

If you keep hearing comments that something you do/project is not going over well then you have to decide if you want to keep it and accept you are going to be less successful in making your point or change what it is you are doing.
 
Ronnie Sanford said:
Yeah, I don't see it that way. Some times poor CRKrueger CRKrueger gets called a troll when he is making a very obvious and pragmatic point. A troll is not a troll. A troll is a person that intentionally tries to inflame a conversation. Not a person that is making a logical point that can be analyzed. Now you might argue that the people discussing D&D's armor rules might not want to hear that and maybe the person interjecting should realize that but its stil not trolling.
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Are you knowingly or willingly engaging in disruptive or bad behaviour with the intention of soliciting a reaction from others?
If yes, you're a troll.

Heres the thing though. Calling people a Troll can be trolling too. So maybe in that case CRK was not the troll hut was the one being trolled.

Its all about behaviour, intent, and willfullness.

For example, if I replied to you ssying "shut up you are just being a troll" I would actually be the troll here.

Edit: I think its slso fair to say that we've all gotten carried away and probably trolled ourselves. I have, for sure.
Its the ones that font just visit trolling, they live , breathe it, and pat strata fees on it that Im more refering too.
 
Bunch said:
Personally I think the comments from Richard Hamming on the importance of fitting in/ not letting your appearance and manners distract from the message is worth keeping in mind.

"You should dress according to the expectations of the audience spoken to. If I am going to give an address at the MIT computer center, I dress with a bolo and an old corduroy jacket or something else. I know enough not to let my clothes, my appearance, my manners get in the way of what I care about."

If you keep hearing comments that something you do/project is not going over well then you have to decide if you want to keep it and accept you are going to be less successful in making your point or change what it is you are doing.
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WHile I don't disagree, what is the comment relevant too?
 
Faylar said:
Are you knowingly or willingly engaging in disruptive or bad behaviour with the intention of soliciting a reaction from others?
If yes, you're a troll.
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So we agree... It's about intent. You intend to solicit a reaction from others.
 
Ronnie Sanford said:
So we agree... It's about intent. You intend to solicit a reaction from others.
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Id say thats a decent clarification.
Id add though that if you are called out on it and then dig in and defiantly continue... it counts yoo, and intent there would be hard to prove.
 
Faylar said:
Are you knowingly or willingly engaging in disruptive or bad behaviour with the intention of soliciting a reaction from others?
If yes, you're a troll.

Heres the thing though. Calling people a Troll can be trolling too. So maybe in that case CRK was not the troll hut was the one being trolled.

Its all about behaviour, intent, and willfullness.

For example, if I replied to you ssying "shut up you are just being a troll" I would actually be the troll here.

Edit: I think its slso fair to say that we've all gotten carried away and probably trolled ourselves. I have, for sure.
Its the ones that font just visit trolling, they live , breathe it, and pat strata fees on it that Im more refering too.
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To balance this all out since so many feel the need to come to CK's defense and I'm the one who recently called him a troll.

When he posts about things he likes and in good faith CK is a good, fun poster.

But I call BS on him not holding grudges, he regularly pops into threads about games he doesn't like and eventually ends up personally insulting posters he's previously butted heads with.

Seen it again and again and to claim he's just making a reasonable point strongly is nonsense, I assume either some have missed this behaviour or are allowing their personal history with him to obscure the obvious.

He will also disengeously poke at the no-politics rule on this site and engages in various other transparent shit-stirring.

Is he purposefully trolling? Hard to say, more likely I'd say he can't help himself.

I will also give him credit for not (as far as I know) running back to RPGSite and shit-talking the Pub as some cowardly regulars from there do.

I'm not calling for CK's head as I think he is often a good member of the forum but I'd like more of us to not rise to his transparent troll bait and encourage him when he posts more constructively rather than enabling him by pretending nothing he does is ever wrong.
 
I think as I turn into an old fart, I have become more able to just ignore folks on forums when they are being outrageous, whoever they are. Pretty rare when I actually block someone.

as far as Mr. CK, I think I took a clue from his avatar on another board, and put that into context. Helped a bunch to know when steam was being blown and not.
 
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