Moderation Issues

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chuckdee said:
And one thing that probably needs to be in that- the limits for questioning. I appreciate that there are threads like this that you can ask questions in. But from moderating myself, I know that it can get tiring.
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Yeah, we've been incredibly open because we've had a community that allows us to be so, basically. But recall we're also all grizzled, pessimistic, forum veterans, and we are aware of more than we probably let on. A poster will have a very hard time gaming the system here, because at the end of the day moderation isn't our job, we're here at The Pub because we love it here and we want it to remain a place we love. If we have to put our foot down, we won't hesitate.

Luckily, that's realy rare, and we appreciate that, because it's better to have the place be one where everybody wants the rules, they aren't something imposed on the posters.
 
I've written policy for workplaces and the best thing is to keep it broad, too easy to get lost in the weeds, and leave it up to mod discretion.
 
The last rule in the set of rules i wrote for the forums I run is "Do not anger the gorilla".

It mostly just covers all those excess "Hey, don't be a dick" rules that shouldn't have to be stated.
 
Faylar said:
We also have a huge subset of the hobby that LOVE to come along and stir the pot using politics as a weapon to do so. We don't need taht either. The posts today helped clarify things for me. I think we just need to find a way to put that out there so it can be understood. That we are non political and the Mods have authority to decide on what crosses the line for this forum.
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You know, that raises a question I have. Is it the politics pushing the gaming agenda or the gaming agenda pushing the politics? Sometimes it feels like people are using the politics to target and attack competitors for motives beyond the political if you know what I mean.

Endless Flight said:
Totally unrelated to modding, but I was thinking of the “real life” vs “online” lives and I think I’m kind of still stuck in the old school way of thinking about our identities. They aren’t really as separate as they used to be especially with social media now. Maybe I should just say “lives” period from now on. Just a thought that popped in my head the other day.
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Interesting but I try to keep my on-line life and real-life pretty separate. Sure they bleed into each other at times. But generally, I think there's too much room for things to get personal, and when things get personal they get ugly. There are things that are worse than politics.
 
David Johansen said:
You know, that raises a question I have. Is it the politics pushing the gaming agenda or the gaming agenda pushing the politics? Sometimes it feels like people are using the politics to target and attack competitors for motives beyond the political if you know what I mean.
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I have no idea... I dont ken groupthink. :sad:
I'd have to guess its a big fish small pond scenario where the pond is gaming culture and politics is a way of eliminating bigger fish through mob mentality.
Its bloc voting. They push politics until its openly discusses and then pull in like minded outsiders in sufficient numbers to push competition out.
 
It's probably over the line to discuss specific instances but if company A wants to be more politick than company B, it's often easier to try showing that company B is less politick than company A than to actually show greater virtue. So much easier to bring some one else down than it is to raise yourself up.
 
David Johansen said:
Interesting but I try to keep my on-line life and real-life pretty separate. Sure they bleed into each other at times. But generally, I think there's too much room for things to get personal, and when things get personal they get ugly. There are things that are worse than politics.
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I think it depends on a lot of stuff. Like, I work remotely, have worked remotely for 8 years. I also am not a super outgoing person. Most of my coworkers I know mostly through like teleconference and a lot of text chat. A lot of friends I've picked up through the communities I work in online, even some that I interact with in real life as well.

In reality, outside of my immediate family, everyone I talk to on a regular basis is probably someone I first met through online rather than real life. I tend to think of them as closer friends than people I talk to once a month going out or something.
 
David Johansen said:
It's probably over the line to discuss specific instances but if company A wants to be more politick than company B, it's often easier to try showing that company B is less politick than company A than to actually show greater virtue. So much easier to bring some one else down than it is to raise yourself up.
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Well, if you are a publisher, you can either try and appeal to a broad market and allow sales to trickle in at a steady rate, or you can appeal to a smaller rabid base and get a lot of money quickly with no long term prospects because you alienate the much larger market.
So you learn to speak the language of the market that will give you the highest and quickest returns before moving on. Hence... politics.
That's how I see it anyways.
 
Or you actually just believe the things you are doing are the right things as a publisher. Not as likely at WotC scale, but most RPG publishers are very small, so personal morals can sway much more than at a big company.. (obviously can't go to much into this concept, just discussing it as an abstract, as going further skirts into politics discussion).

Idk, I just feel that treating it all like pandering with small publishers feels kind of insulting as it isn't an organization at that point, you are leveling that opinion at individuals.
 
EmperorNorton said:
Or you actually just believe the things you are doing are the right things as a publisher. Not as likely at WotC scale, but most RPG publishers are very small, so personal morals can sway much more than at a big company.. (obviously can't go to much into this concept, just discussing it as an abstract, as going further skirts into politics discussion).

Idk, I just feel that treating it all like pandering with small publishers feels kind of insulting as it isn't an organization at that point, you are leveling that opinion at individuals.
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I rarely speak in absolutes. I'm offering my opinion on why some people push politics in the RPG community so hard. I am not saying definitely that all people doing this are one way or another.
That being said, one thing that is true in life is that Money talks and Bullshit walks. I don't doubt that once a game gets the the public phase Dollar signs are dominating most decisions by that point for most people.
 
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Culture and in-game politics are a big thing for me in role-playing. While there is some topics I would like to talk about that I can't, I think the current way to handle it is quite good. That gray area also allow for the mods to reply with a "that's an interesting topic, but I have to say no for now." After all, a topic can be perfectly fine before a real life situation, or a year or two after, but not while its a hot potato.

Also, there's quite a difference if it is a newly registered member, a member with a track record as a hothead, or a member they think can handle the topic. A clear line has to be a one size fits all.
 
“Rulings not rules” :grin:

Or to put it a little more expansively: we are all gamers here. Whatever our preferences we learn what rules are and how to use them to our advantage. So any hard rules can and will be gamed by people. Having nuanced moderation instead should hopefully help keep this down, even if the price is a few occasions when we would like to discuss politics-adjacent stuff by can’t.

Guidelines are definitely important, however, as the absence of something is really hard to spot.
 
Faylar said:
Race and Gender are very much political hot topics. I didn't see your post, but I trust the mods here, they don't ban/delete posts lightly. We have the no politics rule for a very good reason as the posts since yours discusses.
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They have been politicised, but in themselves are not political. My post was just related to awareness of inclusivity in board game design and play groups, and I shared some personal tidbits related to this topic.
 
Smith said:
They have been politicised
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That is the relevant point. Maybe someday we can discuss such things, but today is not that day, this society is not that society, and the article will not be that article.
 
TristramEvans said:
That is the relevant point. Maybe someday we can discuss such things, but today is not that day, this society is not that society, and the article will not be that article.
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I was saying that they have been politicised, but I disagree that the post I created was political. For the issue I was bringing awareness to, what can change if we don't discuss it to get to the society you refer to?
 
Smith said:
I was saying that they have been politicised, but I disagree that the post I created was political. For the issue I was bringing awareness to, what can change if we don't discuss it to get to the society you refer to?
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That sentiment opens the discussion on all politics. Everything is political only because you all won't get on board with my Emperor of the World platform, and how can we ever get to a place of harmony if I can't even discuss my benevolent rule?
 
Smith said:
For the issue I was bringing awareness to,
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Here's the thing though...you're not. Everyone here knows about those issues. And most of us discuss them frequently. Just not here at The Pub. The Pub simply isn't the place for modern day "issues", it's our vacation from them, because pretty much EVERYwhere else online isn't.


Smith said:
what can change if we don't discuss it to get to the society you refer to?
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The Pub isn't a venue for enacting societal change.
 
TristramEvans said:
Here's the thing though...you're not. Everyone here knows about those issues. And most of us discuss them frequently. Just not here at The Pub. The Pub simply isn't the place for modern day "issues", it's our vacation from them, because pretty much EVERYwhere else online isn't.
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For many people they do not get a break, a vacation from how they are treated or represented in the gaming sphere. Even you giving it quotation marks as "issues" implies a disbelieving attitude towards the topic, which is very disappointing if that is the case.

I'm not calling for self-flagellation, I just disagree that the topic I was presenting in particular was political in nature and I was not looking for political discourse - just an open conversation.

I'll leave it at that; I fundamentally disagree with your position, TristramEvans TristramEvans.
 
chuckdee said:
And as someone who is in one of the groups that don't get a break, I appreciate getting one in online spheres. Being inundated constantly gets tiring and makes for a lot of internalized anger.
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Yeah, this. As a (non practising) Jew the last thing I want to do on here is talk about antisemitism.
 
I'm very happy to have the pub be a politics-free space generally. The floating anger and anxiety that seem to be part of everyday life these days can be a lot.
 
Smith said:
For many people they do not get a break, a vacation from how they are treated or represented in the gaming sphere. Even you giving it quotation marks as "issues" implies a disbelieving attitude towards the topic, which is very disappointing if that is the case.

I'm not calling for self-flagellation, I just disagree that the topic I was presenting in particular was political in nature and I was not looking for political discourse - just an open conversation.

I'll leave it at that; I fundamentally disagree with your position, TristramEvans TristramEvans.
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We at the Pub fundamentally disagree with ANY injections of politics into our forum. Its not just Tristram's position... its the position of the vast majority here.
 
Faylar said:
We at the Pub fundamentally disagree with ANY injections of politics into our forum. Its not just Tristram's position... its the position of the vast majority here.
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Smith said:
I just disagree that the topic I was presenting in particular was political in nature and I was not looking for political discourse - just an open conversation.
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Smith Smith that’s totally understandable. I’ve actually gone on record as saying that the Pub was against racism and bigotry when we were discussing the BLM bundle a few weeks back. We aspire to be as inclusive as possible, we just don’t like politically charged rhetoric that comes with the conversations about inclusivity.
 
Thats just trying to dance around it.
We all respect the no politics rule here.
We are here to talk games not change the world. There are other forums for that if you are in the mood for it.

Therpgsite
Rpg.net

Both entertain that sort of conversation.
 
Endless Flight said:
Smith Smith that’s totally understandable. I’ve actually gone on record as saying that the Pub was against racism and bigotry when we were discussing the BLM bundle a few weeks back. We aspire to be as inclusive as possible, we just don’t like politically charged rhetoric that comes with the conversations about inclusivity.
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I was about to talk about this. One thing that I've noticed that differentiates here from a lot of other "no politics" places. The point of doing it here really is a break. For everyone.

I fall in one of the camps that we talk about when we talk about inclusivity in gaming. Most of my play group is too. And it actually is nice to get away from talking about the reality of what that is in the real world. Yes, I like talking about inclusivity in gaming, but it can definitely end up being a grinding and upsetting experience.

But I've always felt that in general, the people here are very welcoming to people of all types. And those that do have bigoted beliefs, if they actually say anything bigoted here would get railed by the moderator staff.

I can just be me here. And not be concerned if I mention that I'm bi, or that my oldest son is trans, etc.

I can even talk about games I like that are inclusive, I just can't make a huge point of them being inclusive and make that the topic of conversation. (I think it was even mentioned at one point that one of the things that I liked about Numenera was that there are so many casually LGBT charactrers in the setting where there wasn't a big deal made about it, and no one here had a problem with it, because it was just an aside when talking about the setting as a whole and wasn't an attempt to turn the conversation to politics).

Basically, you won't run into bigoted bullshit here, and if you do, just report it and it'll get taken care of. Because of that, I don't mind having the no politics rule. It really is a nice vacation from Facebook timelines and the like.
 
Smith said:
For many people they do not get a break, a vacation from how they are treated or represented in the gaming sphere
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I predict that posting on the pub is not going to be the kind of experience you're hoping for.
 
Endless Flight said:
I fall in one of the camps that we talk about when we talk about inclusivity in gaming. Most of my play group is too. And it actually is nice to get away from talking about the reality of what that is in the real world. Yes, I like talking about inclusivity in gaming, but it can definitely end up being a grinding and upsetting experience.

But I've always felt that in general, the people here are very welcoming to people of all types. And those that do have bigoted beliefs, if they actually say anything bigoted here would get railed by the moderator staff.

I can just be me here. And not be concerned if I mention that I'm bi, or that my oldest son is trans, etc.

I can even talk about games I like that are inclusive, I just can't make a huge point of them being inclusive and make that the topic of conversation. (I think it was even mentioned at one point that one of the things that I liked about Numenera was that there are so many casually LGBT charactrers in the setting where there wasn't a big deal made about it, and no one here had a problem with it, because it was just an aside when talking about the setting as a whole and wasn't an attempt to turn the conversation to politics).

Basically, you won't run into bigoted bullshit here, and if you do, just report it and it'll get taken care of. Because of that, I don't mind having the no politics rule. It really is a nice vacation from Facebook timelines and the like.
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As far as I'm concerned anyone who tries to use the no politics rule to claim you shouldn't be open about being bi has majorly broken the other "treat other posters with respect" cardinal rule
 
spittingimage said:
I predict that posting on the pub is not going to be the kind of experience you're hoping
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I think that's excessive. He's been posting here for over a year with no issues. It's not like people disagreeing on where the line of daily life vs politics is a big deal. He posted. A mod made a call. He disagrees. I don't see him pushing to continue the discussion. Maybe he will but so far he's just disagreeing.

I see where he's coming from but I also have seen how poorly those kinds of discussions go online vs in person. It should be possible to discuss them. In practice it seems to turn into a dumpster fire. I wish we could without that happening but I'm here because it seems to always happen.
 
Bunch said:
I think that's excessive. He's been posting here for over a year with no issues. It's not like people disagreeing on where the line of daily life vs politics is a big deal. He posted. A mod made a call. He disagrees. I don't see him pushing to continue the discussion. Maybe he will but so far he's just disagreeing.
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I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
 
Some topics, while maybe not political in and of themselves end up consistently opening the door wide and inviting politics in. They should also fall under the no politics rule too.
We have 4 mods... if we have every other post line dancing politics, we will quickly end up like some of those other sites we immigrated from.
 
Black Leaf said:
As far as I'm concerned anyone who tries to use the no politics rule to claim you shouldn't be open about being bi has majorly broken the other "treat other posters with respect" cardinal rule
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Correct but his original post was if I'm paraphrasing correctly. "wouldn't it be nice if POC like my wife could go into a game store and not have a vastly different experience than white folks.".
Do I agree? Yes.
Is here where I go to talk about how to go about changing that? No.
Why? Because online that gets conflated with a while slew of other issues in that descend into two very vocal groups drowning out all conversation until it sounds something like "Nazi!!" "Communist!" repeated an nauseum. Which I can get pretty much everywhere but here.
 
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