More dramas for Wizards Of The Coast?

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Chris Brady said:
That wasn't my intention. Filoni has no care about Star Wars beyond what he can use his Clone Wars stuff, Ahsoka, the Mandalorian clans he created, the Dark Saber BS, for. He has no care about canon or other thing someone who does respect the material would look at.

Also, Favreau himself admitted that Mando was always going to lead to the First Order, which most Star Wars watchers are not fans of, back in an Entertainment Weekly (EW) interview they had in 2019.
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Filoni is definitely a Star Wars fan. His show Rebels was highly influenced by his D6 Star Wars games. I understand not liking what he has added to setting, but he is bringing in his head canon because he is a fan.

As for Clone Wars, that's a product of Lucasfilm from when Lucas was still in charge, and he had regular input into it. It's not a show I ever got into, but it's as canon as anything in Star Wars, certainly more than the EU novels.
 
Lofgeornost said:
Right, and adaptations or extensions with reverence for the original material can work as well, like Milton's Paradise Lost, or a lot of Arthurian literature from the Middle Ages. Of course, it helps to be John Milton or Wolfram von Eschenbach.
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And NOT being a, say, executive should actually be mandatory:devil:!

Lychee of the Exchequer said:
If you want to make the world a better place...

And you think the object of your love has lately been transmuted into a shit elemental by the anti-reverse Midas effect of Corporate Touch...

Do yourself a favor and... STOP BUYING SHIT !
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Preach it, brother... I mean, I even disagree with you on the reasons, but I totally agree on the remedy:thumbsup:!

Seriously, "I'll watch this piece of shit 24 times until it stops feeling like one" doesn't mean it stopped being shit, it means you got used to shit. Not something I recommend...:shade:
 
E-Rocker said:
Sounds interesting. What are some examples?
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Personally, I find that to be a truism. That's why MAR Barker wrote in his setting - the first setting ever, mind you - "make Tekumel your own"...:thumbsup:

Without making it your own, you simply won't run a good game, IME...:devil:
...making it the just the same ase all the other areas where I've found the same to be true, now that I think about it:shock:!
 
E-Rocker said:
Sounds interesting. What are some examples?
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I was thinking of comics, mostly, I think. So a significant amount of work by Alan Moore... his early stuff like Swamp Thing and Miracle Man seem most notable. And although it morphed into something else (for fear that it would render the characters untouchable afterwards), his reimagining of the Charlton heroes into Watchmen seems relevant.

This led to a whole host of new takes on older ideas... from Gaiman's Sandman to Morrison's Animal Man, and many others. This is something that's also present throughout comic history, though the degrees vary at times. Even something like deciding to make Tony Stark an alcoholic is risky. Miller's decision to have Karen Page sell Daredevil's identity for heroin. Comic characters are going through a constant flux of revision and restoration, and yet now and again something new sticks and becomes part of what's considered foundational for the character.

Jonathan Hickman's work at Marvel is something that comes to mind as well. His run on Fantastic Four is my favorite ever. What's impressive is that he'd never been a big fan of the comic prior to getting the assignment. He had to go back and read all the iconic stuff over years of comics, and then crafted a run that was so perfect for those characters. He looked at it as an assignment, and that helped him craft an epic run. Similarly, he took the idea of the Illuminati from the Avengers, and created a scenario for them that challenged the very idea of superheroes, and he put them through the wringer in a way that's hard to imagine for mainstream superheroes. Throughout these stories, he constantly drew on what came before, but didn't hesitate to reimagine or alter elements when needed. He respected the material, but didn't place it above the needs of his story.

Outside of comics, I actually really liked the take on Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi. I think other parts of the film were uneven, but overall, Luke's arc was one I liked. It's not what I would have ever said I wanted before I saw it... and it certainly didn't treat the character or the source material as sacrosanct. I liked that he became similar to Obi-Wan, having failed in some way and living in isolation. But he ultimately redeems himself and helps restore the Jedi through Rey.... and he does it not through violence, but by inspiring others, which is how he beat Palpatine. I realize I'm likely in the minority on this... but I'd seen plenty of takes on Luke as the flawless leader of a new generation of Jedi and I just didn't need to see that again. I'm glad that someone was willing to do something less obvious and less demanded by fans.

None of this stuff would be possible if they'd hired someone who held source material in too high a light, or who only tried to give the audience what they wanted. In my opinion, the best stuff challenges us and doesn't go the easy route... they don't just do what we expect, or what we've come to already love... they do something new or different. I think for a writer on longstanding IPs like we see in comics and film franchises, they have to bring something of themselves to it. If they're just mimicking what's already been done, then why are they even there?
 
hawkeyefan said:
I was thinking of comics, mostly, I think. So a significant amount of work by Alan Moore... his early stuff like Swamp Thing and Miracle Man seem most notable. And although it morphed into something else (for fear that it would render the characters untouchable afterwards), his reimagining of the Charlton heroes into Watchmen seems relevant.

This led to a whole host of new takes on older ideas...
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In the 1930s, Amazing Man was quite clearly Tibetan or something. Later writers during the war made him into a red-blooded, all-American hero.

I don't think Alan Moore was responsible for the idea of reimagining old comic book characters in new ways. That started in the 1930s as soon as comics characters became corporate properties that were passed to new writers and artists.
 
SmallbutVicious said:
In the 1930s, Amazing Man was quite clearly Tibetan or something. Later writers during the war made him into a red-blooded, all-American hero.

I don't think Alan Moore was responsible for the idea of reimagining old comic book characters in new ways. That started in the 1930s as soon as comics characters became corporate properties that were passed to new writers and artists.
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Oh, sure, it's happened plenty of times from the pulps and with radio serials and so on. I wasn't trying to imply Alan Moore was the first so much as he was primary example as far as my experiences and my personal taste.
 
Alan Moore was just great at what he did with old material though. I remember reading Swamp Thing as a kid, and thought it was kinda stupid. Then came along Moore, who I knew from 2000 AD, and made it epic. Many reboots have failed
Baulderstone said:
The fact that so many TV writers are terrified of being replaced by AI is more a reflection on the quality of their recent output than the actual ability of AI to produce good writing.
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I don't think a lot of fans really care about good writing. There's usually always a big market for the same old shit.
 
Endless Flight said:
I kept telling people The Mandalorian and all these shows are proto-sequel trilogy stuff and I got harangued (like on Reddit). Why wouldn’t people assume that’s what they are going to do after doing the same thing with the prequels? The only difference is The Clone Wars was higher quality than any of these live action shows.
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Andor remains really good.
 
Baulderstone said:
The fact that so many TV writers are terrified of being replaced by AI is more a reflection on the quality of their recent output than the actual ability of AI to produce good writing.
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Not sure how many writers are actually concerned about that. I follow a few on Twitter and haven't seen anyone mention it in relation to the strike.

What I have seen is people complain about being expected to work for free and going months before being paid. Streaming has led to the kind of shitty 'gig economy' abuses familiar from Uber, Doordash, etc.

I think it's only moron CEOs and suits who think you can replace writers with 'AI' (which, let's all remember is actually light years away from actual AI). I'm sure some of them will try but I highly doubt it will remotely work.
 
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Voros said:
Not sure how many writers are actually concerned about that. I follow a few on Twitter and haven't seen anyone mention it in relation to the strike.

What I have seen is people complain about being expected to work for free and going months before being paid. Streaming has led to the kind of shitty 'gig economy' abuses familiar from Uber, Doordash, etc.

I think it's only moron CEOs and suits who think you can replace writers with 'AI' (which, let's all remember is actually light years away from actual AI). I'm sure some of them will try but I highly doubt it will remotely work.
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They are the ones that put it on the table. If they are finding it a distraction from their real goals, they can take it off the table.
 
hawkeyefan said:
Outside of comics, I actually really liked the take on Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi. I think other parts of the film were uneven, but overall, Luke's arc was one I liked. It's not what I would have ever said I wanted before I saw it... and it certainly didn't treat the character or the source material as sacrosanct. I liked that he became similar to Obi-Wan, having failed in some way and living in isolation. But he ultimately redeems himself and helps restore the Jedi through Rey.... and he does it not through violence, but by inspiring others, which is how he beat Palpatine. I realize I'm likely in the minority on this... but I'd seen plenty of takes on Luke as the flawless leader of a new generation of Jedi and I just didn't need to see that again. I'm glad that someone was willing to do something less obvious and less demanded by fans.
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I’m with you here!

It always shocks me how many Star Wars fans forget that pivotal scene in Return of the Jedi where Luke tosses away his weapon and refuses to partake in that endless cycle of violence.

Nope! Jedi are thoughtless murderers all of the time all over the place. I loved Luke’s non-violent sacrifice in The Last Jedi. I wish more StarWars writers thought like that.

Jedi aren’t shown as “peacekeepers” but judge, jury and executioner. Brutally so (not just the Sith). It never sat well with me.
 
Necrozius said:
I’m with you here!

It always shocks me how many Star Wars fans forget that pivotal scene in Return of the Jedi where Luke tosses away his weapon and refuses to partake in that endless cycle of violence.

Nope! Jedi are thoughtless murderers all of the time all over the place. I loved Luke’s non-violent sacrifice in The Last Jedi. I wish more StarWars writers thought like that.

Jedi aren’t shown as “peacekeepers” but judge, jury and executioner. Brutally so (not just the Sith). It never sat well with me.
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Nah, it's the other parts of that movie that sink it for me:shade:.
 
Baulderstone said:
Filoni is definitely a Star Wars fan. His show Rebels was highly influenced by his D6 Star Wars games. I understand not liking what he has added to setting, but he is bringing in his head canon because he is a fan.

As for Clone Wars, that's a product of Lucasfilm from when Lucas was still in charge, and he had regular input into it. It's not a show I ever got into, but it's as canon as anything in Star Wars, certainly more than the EU novels.
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Unfortunately, that's not true. He knows Star Wars, sure, but he only cares about his creations, not caring about the source material beyond that. His various interviews of him backing whatever his bosses say, even if it contradicts his previous statements are proof of this.

I just wish I felt something for Star Wars, something more than whatever this is.

And sadly, D&D is reaching that point as well.
 
Chris Brady said:
Unfortunately, that's not true. He knows Star Wars, sure, but he only cares about his creations, not caring about the source material beyond that. His various interviews of him backing whatever his bosses say, even if it contradicts his previous statements are proof of this.

I just wish I felt something for Star Wars, something more than whatever this is.

And sadly, D&D is reaching that point as well.
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Aye. Can I interest you in our Lord and Saviour, Dragonbane?
 
I think one of the best things I heard living in LA was some story on the news about reality tv being scripted etc., and at the end the presenter was like shuffling his papers and casually said: "Hollywood isn't in the business of selling reality". The whole studio laughed.
 
The fundamental issue underpinning most "Franchise" entertainment, whether we're talking about Star Wars, Star Trek, First Party Dungeons and Dragons is this. There inevitably comes a point in any IP lifecycle when the people making it cease to view themselves as creators and come instead to view themselves as stewards of a "brand."

It's the difference between seeing a Rock Band perform in some hole in the wall club when they're young and hungry vs seeing them at a major show in a packed out stadium. The young and hungry band will take risks write new songs and give it their all, while the old rocker just goes through the motions playing the same dozen songs he's played for 50 years.

Everything else: Fandom wars, the infestation of Hollywood cast offs, "Milenial Writing" is symptomatic of this core problem.
 
gruagach said:
I mean, I've seen some old, successful musicians play their hearts out on new music in my time.

So, I don't think the problem is inevitable for a given "franchise" or bit of IP.
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I would say they are the exceptions that proves the Rule.

Sure you can find 1 or 2 examples of big rock stars who still bring it every time, but be honest they aren't the majority. This issue is far more pronounced when the "brand" isn't tied to a specific person.
 
Necrozius said:
I’m with you here!

It always shocks me how many Star Wars fans forget that pivotal scene in Return of the Jedi where Luke tosses away his weapon and refuses to partake in that endless cycle of violence.
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Given the precipitating incident of Ben Solo's fall was revealed in TLJ to be Luke being tempted to resume that cycle, it would seem that Rian Johnson was among those who forgot it. :smile: It just struck me as a plot point that ignored Luke's entire arc in RotJ for the sake of an incredibly contrived and cliched 'certain point of view, both sides are in the wrong, isn't this so tragic?' approach, to the point that it killed the already-on-life-support film for me, and the subsequent handling of things made me give up on Disney SW and stick with my cherry-picked version of the Lucas Six and EU (which has since dropped everything on the timeline post-Survivor's Quest, as well as CGI The Clone Wars :smile: ).
 
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Luke saw in advance what evil Ben was going to do and he thought about preemptively taking his nephew out. I think the premise is alright, I just think TLJ should have shown how far Ben had fallen before it came to that decisive moment. It also might have helped if we had seen Palpatine whispering sweet nothings in Ben’s ear, but they didn’t hash that out until the following movie.
 
What's the problem with The Mandalorian? My brother has let my use his Disney+ account, so I have watched all three seasons of it and I liked it a lot. The first two seasons was the best, but season three was still quite good.

I also have watched Andor and that's also very good.

These two shows alone, made me remember why I loved Star Wars back in the day.

Might watch some of the animated shows next. Maybe Rebels or Clone Wars. I have watched a few episodes of Clone Wars on tv years ago and remember it as quite good.
 
I personally like Mandalorian a lot. Seasons 1 and 2 are great throwbacks to the Moebius & French Comics inspired Space Opera milieu that made the original Star Wars so great.

However, Even while I loved the show I could see where it was headed. Season 2's finale was a pitch perfect conclusion to the Mandalorian and Grogu's story. Anything added to the story at this point is just going to ruin it. Yet ruin it was exactly what Disney were doing. Mando was a cash cow and Disney are not in the habit of leaving cash cows unmilked.

So I decided that was enough. As far as I am concerned, The Mandalorian ended with Mando giving Grogu to Luke Skywalker.

I guess what I am trying to say is, learn to let go. Learn to recognize the Jumping the Shark moment and get off there. Find a satisfying conclusion for you and just stop watching.
 
Nobody should have expected Grogu to stay with Luke Skywalker for a long time. As soon as that happened, people were asking if Grogu died when Kylo Ren killed all of the other apprentices and burned down the Jedi temple. It’s easier for them to reunite than for Lucasfilm to have to concoct an answer to that question.
 
Torque2100 said:
I personally like Mandalorian a lot. Seasons 1 and 2 are great throwbacks to the Moebius & French Comics inspired Space Opera milieu that made the original Star Wars so great.

However, Even while I loved the show I could see where it was headed. Season 2's finale was a pitch perfect conclusion to the Mandalorian and Grogu's story.
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I agree. I also don't think any of the fan references in s2 ruined it, because i didnt get any of them, except an offhand reference to Admiral Thrawn.
 
Imma be real, the only show I have EVER seen recover from Brandification and Shark Jumping was Stranger Things. Season 3 was bad. I thought for sure it was over. Season 4 though was amazing.
 
Torque2100 said:
I personally like Mandalorian a lot. Seasons 1 and 2 are great throwbacks to the Moebius & French Comics inspired Space Opera milieu that made the original Star Wars so great.

However, Even while I loved the show I could see where it was headed. Season 2's finale was a pitch perfect conclusion to the Mandalorian and Grogu's story. Anything added to the story at this point is just going to ruin it. Yet ruin it was exactly what Disney were doing. Mando was a cash cow and Disney are not in the habit of leaving cash cows unmilked.

So I decided that was enough. As far as I am concerned, The Mandalorian ended with Mando giving Grogu to Luke Skywalker.

I guess what I am trying to say is, learn to let go. Learn to recognize the Jumping the Shark moment and get off there. Find a satisfying conclusion for you and just stop watching.
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That's what I did. S2 was a satisfying end to the story, and bringing Grogu back completely undermined everything that made that ending satisfying. I didn't see any point in watching S3.
 
TristramEvans said:
I agree. I also don't think any of the fan references in s2 ruined it, because i didnt get any of them, except an offhand reference to Admiral Thrawn.
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They did for me because the whole thing felt to me that it was constantly asking me to recognise things that I didn't.
 
Baulderstone said:
That's what I did. S2 was a satisfying end to the story, and bringing Grogu back completely undermined everything that made that ending satisfying. I didn't see any point in watching S3.
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I remember as a kid, feeling so ripped off when Marvel brought Jean Grey back in X-Factor. The Dark Phoenix saga was high drama for a kid. A buddy of mine bought X-Factor #1 at the Palm Desert Town Center mall (I spent my bread on Car Wars, I think I made the better purchase). I looked through it, and felt that one of the most important stories of my comic reading life had been utterly cheapened. This impression wasn't helped by the survey tucked into the book, asking the reader how many X-titles they'd be willing to buy every month.
 
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