More dramas for Wizards Of The Coast?

[Mankcam]

Looks like CR has dropped a sneak peek of their new system. Word is, it's a variant of Bladesnin the Dark? Which, if true, I think is actually really cool. Has real "gateway" potential, IMO.

This is gonna increase awareness of PbtA/FitD games if the Critical Role house system is basically a version of it.
If they are decent people, they'll acknowledge the FitD influences.

WotC will definately be looking for a streaming show to replace the cross-promotion from Critical Role, because at the moment the current 'D&D Culture' encompasses Critical Role as a big part of their world - Vox Machina and Honor Amongst Thieves kinda feel they are almost catching the same fish in the same net, but that net could have holes in it soon.

This may also be a big game of chicken that Critical Role is playing with WotC, but I doubt it after the OGL fiasco was partially aimed at getting a cut from Critical Role's success.

It's amusing, even if it has zero impact on my own gaming group

 

[Dr Jack]

My feeling is RPG books have an objective cut off point in terms of price where people will just make their own games in their living room or share systems with one another online if they go past that point (it isn't a necessity like milk or bread).

Roleplaying's a cheap hobby, unless you're into miniatures, the cost of books isn't a problem and even less of one for older gamers.

The main problem is the increasing size of game books. I just don't want so many rules.

 

[AsenRG]

Roleplaying's a cheap hobby, unless you're into miniatures, the cost of books isn't a problem and even less of one for older gamers.

If you run campaigns, though. If you buy a book for each one-shot...not so much!

The main problem is the increasing size of game books. I just don't want so many rules.

It depends on what you're playing, too. Frex, I'm planning to get Aquelarre and Riders of R'lyeh, both well over 400 pages. Most of the admittedly huge books are setting, though!
I like that, that's why I'm getting them.
If those same books were full of rules...they'd need to be damn good rules for me to pay attention, though it has happened before!

 

[Dr Jack]

It depends on what you're playing, too. Frex, I'm planning to get Aquelarre and Riders of R'lyeh, both well over 400 pages. Most of the admittedly huge books are setting, though!
I like that, that's why I'm getting them.
If those same books were full of rules...they'd need to be damn good rules for me to pay attention, though it has happened before!

Obviously, it's a matter of personal preference, but I like my settings on the lighter side too.

 

[JAMUMU]

The CR Candela Obscura Quickstart is out, and it's obviously "very heavily inspired" by FitD, though there's no mention of that in the credits (EDIT: Just read that apparently there will be in the full book). Also, it has a thing called "the thinning" in it which would just set off too many "THE SHINNING" references with my group for it to be remotely playable.

 

[Ladybird]

The CR Candela Obscura Quickstart is out, and it's obviously "very heavily inspired" by FitD, though there's no mention of that in the credits (EDIT: Just read that apparently there will be in the full book). Also, it has a thing called "the thinning" in it which would just set off too many "THE SHINNING" references with my group for it to be remotely playable.

View attachment 61411

CR doing something with an indie game outside of their clique and not crediting the creatives behind it? Never.

 

[JAMUMU]

CR doing something with an indie game outside of their clique and not crediting the creatives behind it? Never.

According to the Twitter storm-in-a-tea-cup, they will definitely be attributing in the main book when it comes out. At least now that they've been called out about it.

It really just reads like a fan hack of Blades. Not impressed by the Quickstart.

 

[Dr Jack]

The CR Candela Obscura Quickstart is out

Link here.

 

[Ladybird]

According to the Twitter storm-in-a-tea-cup, they will definitely be attributing in the main book when it comes out. At least now that they've been called out about it.

"We're sorry we got caught".

I don't think this is a minor thing, though. CR are a fairly major organisation in the RPG space these days, not just some folks getting together for a weekly fun game; if they're going to profit off the work of another publisher, a credit on-stream is just a fair thing for them to do.

 

[JAMUMU]

"We're sorry we got caught".

I don't think this is a minor thing, though. CR are a fairly major organisation in the RPG space these days, not just some folks getting together for a weekly fun game; if they're going to profit off the work of another publisher, a credit on-stream is just a fair thing for them to do.

And there's also the licensing issue. If Candela Obscura is built on the bones of games with open licenses, and there game isn't, the whole dang multiverse could collapse in shock!

 

[Dr Jack]

If John Harper seems happy - he's boosting Candela on his Twitter - then I don't think there's much place for being vicariously angry on his behalf.

 

[JAMUMU]

If John Harper seems happy - he's boosting Candela on his Twitter - then I don't think there's much place for being vicariously angry on his behalf.

Oh I'm not angry, I've never seen CR and don't really care eitherway. And I'm sure it'll lead to a boost in the FitD microsystem. But the game itself looks a bit shit.

 

[sharps54]

Luckily there are good supernatural investigation games out there like Beyond The Supernatural 1E so no need to worry about this

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Roleplaying's a cheap hobby, unless you're into miniatures, the cost of books isn't a problem and even less of one for older gamers.

The main problem is the increasing size of game books. I just don't want so many rules.

For me the costs of books is a consideration. Seventy dollars I think is getting too steep. If RPG books reach 100, I am just not buying them at that point. Sure there are more expensive hobbies out there with gear that costs in the thousands, but those are luxury hobbies for a lot of people

 

[BedrockBrendan]

The main problem is the increasing size of game books. I just don't want so many rules.

This is something I have been thinking about a lot lately. I have put out my share of large books, but with costs going up, I am thinking in terms of keeping books affordable. One way to keep RPGs south of the 50 dollar mark is reducing page count. Granted the cost is still higher (you are paying more now for fewer pages regardless) but this at least keeps cover cost at a level that feels a lot better than 60,70, 80, etc. I like games with a ton of rules and I like rules light. Rules light, or at least being far more efficient with the space rules take up in a book, is what I am contemplating doing to navigate the increasing costs. My next book will be no more than 190 pages. After that I will probably go to the 100 page format I used to use or even shoot for something much lower than that

 

[robertsconley]

"We're sorry we got caught".

I just read the quickstart and I think the comparison to Blades in the Dark are bullshit. There are similarities but only in the sense that Critical Role is dipping into the same creative wellspring everybody else uses both for the mechanics and the default setting.

One thing that leaps out at me far as mechanics goes is while their present of an adventure is a bit of railroad it is nothing like the structured sequence of play like Blade in the Dark has. It is more like how to build an adventure like Gumshoe and GURPS Mystery has.

I don't think this is a minor thing, though. CR are a fairly major organisation in the RPG space these days, not just some folks getting together for a weekly fun game; if they're going to profit off the work of another publisher, a credit on-stream is just a fair thing for them to do.

Did you even read the quickstart side by side with Blades in the Dark?

 

[robertsconley]

I like games with a ton of rules and I like rules light. Rules light, or at least being far more efficient with the space rules take up in a book, is what I am contemplating doing to navigate the increasing costs. My next book will be no more than 190 pages. After that I will probably go to the 100 page format I used to use or even shoot for something much lower than that

After mucking around with my Majestic Fantasy RPG, I think that detailed rules have a geometric cost. Not unlike the hex crawl setting I write. With my hex crawl settings, double the map size means four times the work. It is not quite that bad with detailed rules, but the more details you express in mechanics the number of interactions between rules go up faster than the actual number of rules you have. This means more work than expected. But minimal is not always the answer either.

 

[CRKrueger]

According to the Twitter storm-in-a-tea-cup, they will definitely be attributing in the main book when it comes out. At least now that they've been called out about it.

It really just reads like a fan hack of Blades. Not impressed by the Quickstart.

It reads a lot shit, really. Oddly, this seems like a Corporate copy of an Indie game.

• Game Designer who looks like he came from Central Casting.
• Setting elements cut and pasted from other games but given new proper nouns.
• System elements cut and pasted from other games without apparent knowledge of their context within the originating game.

Compared to what comes out of the Indie scene, this seems off, astroturfed somehow.

Not to mention that having seen a bunch of Critical Role episodes, Mercer does a lot of hand waving technical rules stuff in 5e.

In a narrative game, you usually have light rules, but those rules are always up and in your face, forcing that 3rd person authorial stance, in this case by choosing to spend and choosing to refresh the metacurrency dice.

How are you going to handwave system-mandated Player choice? That is the system’s entire purpose.

If they wanted a cut down system, they should have gone with a Kevin Crawford joint or some form of the Barbarians of Lemuria rules.

 

[JAMUMU]

It uses exactly the same lingo as Blades throughout. It uses the same format and scale for the way actions and resistances work and are laid out on the character sheet. It uses the same dice pool and the same dice resolution system. It uses abilities for unique moves for each archetype. It slightly changes the way damage works, but still has a lasting trauma system. But no, you're right robertsconley there are absolutely no points of comparison between Candela and Blades. None whatsoever.

 

[CRKrueger]

I just read the quickstart and I think the comparison to Blades in the Dark are bullshit. There are similarities but only in the sense that Critical Role is dipping into the same creative wellspring everybody else uses both for the mechanics and the default setting.

One thing that leaps out at me far as mechanics goes is while their present of an adventure is a bit of railroad it is nothing like the structured sequence of play like Blade in the Dark has. It is more like how to build an adventure like Gumshoe and GURPS Mystery has.




Did you even read the quickstart side by side with Blades in the Dark?

Well, they definitely stole the “don’t worry about equipment, what you actually brought with you will come in handy right when you need it” Retroactive Planning mechanic. But, they stole a lot of things, this is one of those “throw all the cool mechanics in a woodchipper and let’s see what sticks to the side of the barn” games.

 

[Dr Jack]

Well, they definitely stole the “don’t worry about equipment, what you actually brought with you will come in handy right when you need it” Retroactive Planning mechanic.

Blade in the Dark leant into that mechanic harder than any other game I know of, but it certainly didn't invent it.

 

[PolarBlues]

In my immediate group I am the font of all things trpg, so that's a concern, heh heh

So I figure they say "Let's play Mythras" as a generic term for any roleplaying game.

 

[Jacob Rodgers]

"We're sorry we got caught".

I don't think this is a minor thing, though. CR are a fairly major organisation in the RPG space these days, not just some folks getting together for a weekly fun game; if they're going to profit off the work of another publisher, a credit on-stream is just a fair thing for them to do.

i expect we will see an announcement/explainer video before the next episode, either as a trailer before the episode, or during Matt's intro.

And it's a believable sort of mistake to make — I'm betting that they made some sort of private arrangement with Mr. Harper and considered it taken care of, and didn't realise how it would look from outside. Or the designer told them that it was sufficiently only 'inspired' by Blades and they were safe. Which would be fine for most courts, but not the court of public opinion.

 

[JAMUMU]

Which would be fine for most courts, but not the court of public opinion.

savage baying intensifies

 

[robertsconley]

Well, they definitely stole the “don’t worry about equipment, what you actually brought with you will come in handy right when you need it” Retroactive Planning mechanic. But, they stole a lot of things, this is one of those “throw all the cool mechanics in a woodchipper and let’s see what sticks to the side of the barn” games.

And just how original all those ideas in the systems that Critical Role is supposedly "stealing" from. Blades in the Dark itself was built on a preexisting genre niche and was a mashup of mechanics developed in other RPGs. But the parts that made it distinctive and award winning I can't see in the quickstart. Instead, it's stuff like what you mentioned about equipment, dice pools, and the fact the setting is from the same general genre as BitD (whose name escapes me at the moment). None of which was what really made BitD distinctive.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I think turning the CR thing into an issue, unless they are literally stealing stuff from the rulebook, is probably not good for the hobby. After the OGL there is increased uncertainty around what is okay and not okay to use in a game, how close systems can be to other systems. I think overall we have benefited tremendously from a more open approach that allows people to build off of ideas of others. Again if they literally took stuff from the book that is different. Or if they acted like they were the first to make something, criticism is fair. But gettin lawyers involved I don't think would be great at all

 

[JAMUMU]

I think turning the CR thing into an issue, unless they are literally stealing stuff from the rulebook, is probably not good for the hobby. After the OGL there is increased uncertainty around what is okay and not okay to use in a game, how close systems can be to other systems. I think overall we have benefited tremendously from a more open approach that allows people to build off of ideas of others. Again if they literally took stuff from the book that is different. Or if they acted like they were the first to make something, criticism is fair. But gettin lawyers involved I don't think would be great at all

I'm just amused that their big new game is actually a lift/hack of another couple of games, with the sort of annoying Official Verbiage I dislike in systems and to top it all the "dueling marginalia" schtick lifted from the old Dresden Files gamebooks. More power to their elbow if it gets their viewers thinking outside the WotC/superheroic fantasy box.

 

[Bunch]

I think turning the CR thing into an issue, unless they are literally stealing stuff from the rulebook, is probably not good for the hobby. After the OGL there is increased uncertainty around what is okay and not okay to use in a game, how close systems can be to other systems. I think overall we have benefited tremendously from a more open approach that allows people to build off of ideas of others. Again if they literally took stuff from the book that is different. Or if they acted like they were the first to make something, criticism is fair. But gettin lawyers involved I don't think would be great at all

This is going on in the world at large. Music has a similar problem of what's base material all can use and what's one person's novel creation. See the Ed Sherrian case.

 

[robertsconley]

I think turning the CR thing into an issue, unless they are literally stealing stuff from the rulebook, is probably not good for the hobby. After the OGL there is increased uncertainty around what is okay and not okay to use in a game, how close systems can be to other systems. I think overall we have benefited tremendously from a more open approach that allows people to build off of ideas of others. Again if they literally took stuff from the book that is different. Or if they acted like they were the first to make something, criticism is fair. But gettin lawyers involved I don't think would be great at all

That is exactly why I have been replying in an annoyed tone. Nobody owns an idea only how that idea is expressed.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

This is going on in the world at large. Music has a similar problem of what's base material all can use and what's one person's novel creation. See the Ed Sherrian case.

I've been following that stuff pretty closely and it is one of the reasons I get so concerned. I used to be a musician and would absolutely not want to be writing music in today's environment. It would be a constant concern

 

[Jacob Rodgers]

I'm just amused that their big new game is actually a lift/hack of another couple of games, with the sort of annoying Official Verbiage I dislike in systems and to top it all the "dueling marginalia" schtick lifted from the old Dresden Files gamebooks. More power to their elbow if it gets their viewers thinking outside the WotC/superheroic fantasy box.

We will have to wait for Daggerheart to know for sure, but I anticipate that will be 5e with the serial numbers lightly filed off, just like Tales of the Valiant, or C7R2D2.

Of course, I can't say much, since Ashen Frontiers might be only be a skosh more original, depending on what 2024 D&D ends up looking like (the Pathfinder Remastered changelog reads like a wishlist of AF Pathfinder, handily shutting up my worst/best Pathfinder-Stan and convincing him that I might be on the right track, at least with some proposed changes*).

We will have to wait until Gen Con to know more.

—•—•—•—

* He's the current front-runner in 'it's always been done this way' thinking, though he will adamantly deny that is his reasoning when called on it.

 

[JAMUMU]

I've been following that stuff pretty closely and it is one of the reasons I get so concerned. I used to be a musician and would absolutely not want to be writing music in today's environment. It would be a constant concern

Absolutely, man. It's killed at least one sub-genre of music already, sample-heavy hip hop/beats. Vulture corps hold all the rights and instead of licensing them out reasonably, I was reading that they are in fact entering the music production business themselves, creating mash-ups of things they hold the rights for.

But as John Harper seems copacetic with whatever CR are up to, I doubt lawyers will be involved here.

 

[dragoner]

I don't care much, people have swiped my stuff, at least some have had the decency to ask, if I total up all I have made I am in the red anyways. As far as CR, never watched it anyways, and I am sure if D&D used their format to make another show, they would rake in the dough, people would watch it.

 

[CRKrueger]

And just how original all those ideas in the systems that Critical Role is supposedly "stealing" from. Blades in the Dark itself was built on a preexisting genre niche and was a mashup of mechanics developed in other RPGs. But the parts that made it distinctive and award winning I can't see in the quickstart. Instead, it's stuff like what you mentioned about equipment, dice pools, and the fact the setting is from the same general genre as BitD (whose name escapes me at the moment). None of which was what really made BitD distinctive.

I think turning the CR thing into an issue, unless they are literally stealing stuff from the rulebook, is probably not good for the hobby. After the OGL there is increased uncertainty around what is okay and not okay to use in a game, how close systems can be to other systems. I think overall we have benefited tremendously from a more open approach that allows people to build off of ideas of others. Again if they literally took stuff from the book that is different. Or if they acted like they were the first to make something, criticism is fair. But gettin lawyers involved I don't think would be great at all

Well, there’s a difference between “stole” as in legalspeak, ie. actually broke a law, and “stole” as in ideaspeak, where a bunch of different games were plundered to make this one.

This game looks like a cut ‘n’ paste hack job.

 

[Bunch]

I've been following that stuff pretty closely and it is one of the reasons I get so concerned. I used to be a musician and would absolutely not want to be writing music in today's environment. It would be a constant concern

I just think of all the classical musicians who are screaming "It's finally our time to be the popular ones! Our music is all long out of copyright!!!"

 

[SmallbutVicious]

I don't care much, people have swiped my stuff, at least some have had the decency to ask, if I total up all I have made I am in the red anyways. As far as CR, never watched it anyways, and I am sure if D&D used their format to make another show, they would rake in the dough, people would watch it.

The success of Critical Role was largely about the people, though. I understand that their style is not everyone's cup of tea (and I have to be in the right mood), but a lot of people really like it, and it was their personalities that made the show.

If WotC wanted to make their own version, it's success would largely be contingent on who they put on it. They'd probably do well if they were willing to pay some celebrities who already have name recognition to do it.

 

[Ladybird]

Since Harper is good with this I can't help but see everyone complaining about it as white knights. Pick your battles people.

Battles? There's not even a squabble here, we're just randos griping on a forum.

 

[Dr Jack]

If WotC wanted to make their own version, it's success would largely be contingent on who they put on it. They'd probably do well if they were willing to pay some celebrities who already have name recognition to do it.

It's going to be very, very hard to assemble a group of people who have the chemistry and skills of the Critters, and are also able to play a fun-to-watch game of D&D.

 

[hawkeyefan]

The CR Candela Obscura Quickstart is out, and it's obviously "very heavily inspired" by FitD, though there's no mention of that in the credits (EDIT: Just read that apparently there will be in the full book). Also, it has a thing called "the thinning" in it which would just set off too many "THE SHINNING" references with my group for it to be remotely playable.

View attachment 61411

"Och Lad, do you want to be sued?"


As for the matter of the game's inspirations... it's very clearly based on Blades in the Dark. They've already said that both Harper and Blades will be credited in the full rule book. This is just a quickstart. Also, it mentons the "Illuminated Worlds System" by Stras Acimovic and Layla Adelman. I'm not familiar with Layla, but Stras is an important designer in the FitD sphere. He's credited in Blades in the Dark for providing additional material and he was involved heavily in the playtesting with John Harper. He also cowrote two of the most significant FitD games, Scum & Villainy and Band of Blades. Clearly, this game is influenced by Blades and the FitD design.

I'm not quite sure what the Illuminated Worlds system is, but it seems like it's Stras's and Layla's tweak on FitD, and that version is what's being used for Candela Obscura. Perhaps it is a system being developed for use with other games, as well... I don't think it's clear at this point. If that or something similar is the case, I have no doubt that Stras will make sure that Harper and Blades are credited as they're a clear inspiration for the mechanics.

My impression, based on the minimal info in the quickstart, is that they've taken the basic FitD system and given it some tweaks to make it work in a more neo-trad way. It's hard to say for sure, but the idea of a canned adventure doesn't really work with the FitD system, and the quickstart has one, with boxed text and all. This could just be the nature of a quickstart and what it demands, but that's my initial impression.

 

[Baulderstone]

I think RPG streaming shows drifting away from D&D, is almost inevitable. I used to frequently run demo RPG sessions when I worked in game stores, so I feel i have some sense of how to run a game to play to an audience. D&D is not high on the list of systems I'd pick to entertain people that aren't playing. Games like BitD and Gumshoe are much better suited as a framework for something like that. DramaSystem would also be a good fit. I think shows where people stream D&D sessions will probably look sluggish next to shows where people are running games like this.

I agree with the opinion in this thread that CR running a non-D&D game is good for the industry no matter what non-D&D game it is. I thought they'd be content just making an OGL clone.