More dramas for Wizards Of The Coast?

[Gringnr]

I'll admit that there is a lot to like about NBK. It put Woody Harrelson on the map as a great actor, and as I said earlier, Stone has a great sense of style. My main issue is that that "tabloid TV is evil" was a tired topic in the late '80s, let alone in 1994. Satirizing tabloid TV was certainly an element of the original screenplay, but Stone pushed it into Very Special Episode territory.

In my view, something being a "tired topic", i.e., the tail emd of the media cycle, is part of the problem, and part of the movie's theme. Just because something is no longer "popular", "hot", or "buzzworthy", doesn't mean it's no longer relevant. And the media's fixation on ratings/views offers a distorted lens for us to see through. Just my $0.02, though.

 

[Gringnr]

I could also be giving Stone far too much credit lol

Edit: and of course I could be giving my own film analyses WAY too much credit...

 

[Bunch]

DeNiro shooting Fonda for annoying the living shit out of him is one of the best scenes in Jackie Brown. I liked Bridget Fonda and wish she'd done more movies.

 

[Voros]

One thing to keep in mind with Jackie Brown is that it bombed. Pulp Fiction was a huge hit and gave Taratino a golden ticket to do whatever the wanted, and he made a faithful Elmore Leonard adaptation and hardly anybody wanted to watch it. After that, he course-corrected and made Kill Bill. It's why I find attacks on Kill Bill as "self-indulgence" to be misguided. If anything, Jackie Brown was him indulging himself, while Kill Bill was him making a crowd-pleaser, at least with Vol. I.

I don't really get "self-indulgence" as a criticism of art anyway. Yes, Kill Bill Vol. II is a deeper dive into the wuxia territory of relationships between masters and students rather than the more straight-forward action movie that is Vol. I, but that's what I like about it. I completely understand other people not being interested in it, but a movie having a more narrow focus doesn't make it innately bad.

The making and consuming or entertainment is largely indulgence anyway.

I'm of the opinion that Stone is exactly the kind of self-indulgent, not-half-as-smart-as-he-thinks-he-is director that people accuse Tarantino of being. He is an excellent stylist, but most of his movies are dragged down by his simplistic ideas.

I like most of KB 2 but find the last, long monologue scene by Caradine one of the weaker pieces of writing by Tarantino. I get what he was trying to do, I just didn't think it worked, for me at least.

 

[Voros]

One thing to keep in mind with Jackie Brown is that it bombed. Pulp Fiction was a huge hit and gave Taratino a golden ticket to do whatever the wanted, and he made a faithful Elmore Leonard adaptation and hardly anybody wanted to watch it. After that, he course-corrected and made Kill Bill. It's why I find attacks on Kill Bill as "self-indulgence" to be misguided. If anything, Jackie Brown was him indulging himself, while Kill Bill was him making a crowd-pleaser, at least with Vol. I.

I don't really get "self-indulgence" as a criticism of art anyway. Yes, Kill Bill Vol. II is a deeper dive into the wuxia territory of relationships between masters and students rather than the more straight-forward action movie that is Vol. I, but that's what I like about it. I completely understand other people not being interested in it, but a movie having a more narrow focus doesn't make it innately bad.

The making and consuming or entertainment is largely indulgence anyway.

I'm of the opinion that Stone is exactly the kind of self-indulgent, not-half-as-smart-as-he-thinks-he-is director that people accuse Tarantino of being. He is an excellent stylist, but most of his movies are dragged down by his simplistic ideas.

Stone definitely has exploitation instincts and he is far from a sophisticated or subtle thinker but for me his best films are when he gives in to his heated imagination, sweaty pulp intensity and stylistic overkill: Salvador, NBK, The Doors, the underrated neonoir U-Turn. Scarface, which Stone scripted, is really more of Stone film than a De Palma film.

NBK is completely insane as a mainstream film with its extensive use of superimposition and commitment to OTT speed. Its critique of media is more than a bit absurd as it largely is what it is criticizing, but I suspect that Stone realized that at some point and just ran with that self-implication.

The film peaks early though with its very dark parody of sitcoms in the sequence featuring Rodney Dangerfield as Mallory's sexually abusive father.

The film runs out of steam before the end but everyone is giving some inspired OTT performances, Harrelson actually being the exception in playing it closer to straight. Tommy Lee Jones as the prison warden is rather amazing, no one else has asked him to give that kind of gonzo performance but he is so good at it.

 

[Gringnr]

Stone definitely has exploitation instincts and he is far from a sophisticated or subtle thinker but for me his best films are when he gives in to his heated imagination, sweaty pulp intensity and stylistic overkill: Salvador, NBK, The Doors, the underrated neonoir U-Turn. Scarface, which Stone scripted, is really more of Stone film than a De Palma film.

NBK is completely insane as a mainstream film with its extensive use of superimposition and commitment to OTT speed. Its critique of media is more than a bit absurd as it largely is what it is criticizing, but I suspect that Stone realized that at some point and just ran with that self-implication.

The film peaks early though with its very dark parody of sitcoms in the sequence featuring Rodney Dangerfield as Mallory's sexually abusive father.

The film runs out of steam before the end but everyone is giving some inspired OTT performances, Harrelson actually being the exception in playing it closer to straight. Tommy Lee Jones as the prison warden is rather amazing, no one else asked him to give that kind of gonzo performance but he is so good at it.

It reminds me of Adaptation (or the other way around, whatever), where Nic Cage's fictionalized version of the scriptwiter says that he doesn't want to add sex and violence to The Orchid Thief in order to sell the movie, and then proceeds to do exactly that, right in front of the audience.To me, it's that very self-indictment that keeps it from being preachy or sanctimonious.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I'll admit that there is a lot to like about NBK. It put Woody Harrelson on the map as a great actor, and as I said earlier, Stone has a great sense of style. My main issue is that that "tabloid TV is evil" was a tired topic in the late '80s, let alone in 1994. Satirizing tabloid TV was certainly an element of the original screenplay, but Stone pushed it into Very Special Episode territory.

I definitely need tp watch it again with fresh eyes. I just remember it being shot in a very surreal style, I recall Rodney Dangerfield making a really strange cameo and the Leonard Cohen song playing during the movie. I do recall a friend i saw the movie with being really angry at the message but I at the time I just thought he was mad about how violent it was (he may have been more upset about the point you are talking about)

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Stone definitely has exploitation instincts and he is far from a sophisticated or subtle thinker but for me his best films are when he gives in to his heated imagination, sweaty pulp intensity and stylistic overkill: Salvador, NBK, The Doors, the underrated neonoir U-Turn. Scarface, which Stone scripted, is really more of Stone film than a De Palma film.

Stuff like Scarface works really well for me. He did Conan the Barbarian as well (I am not sure though how much of the end script was him or Milius), which is another of my favorite films. I do like the Doors, though I haven't seen that in a long time (I remember reading John Densmore's book Riders on the Storm around the time it came out). But it was also formative for me so I don't know how much that affects my enjoyment as I was just getting into the doors right before it came out.

 

[T. Foster]

I also think Kill Bill 2 is better than Kill Bill 1. I hated Stone’s NBK at the time and haven’t ever rewatched it. I remember downloading the QT screenplay off of Usenet and really enjoying it and wishing we’d gotten that movie instead.

I can’t think of a single Oliver Stone movie I actually like. Scarface, I suppose, but the screenplay is by no means the best thing about that movie and there’s no way it would’ve been as good if Stone had directed it instead of DePalma. He’s technically credited on the screenplay for Conan the Barbarian as well but that’s s legal fiction - Milius obviously rewrote the entire thing as all of the themes, story beats, and dialogue are 100% Milius.

 

[Voros]

Stuff like Scarface works really well for me. He did Conan the Barbarian as well (I am not sure though how much of the end script was him or Milius), which is another of my favorite films. I do like the Doors, though I haven't seen that in a long time (I remember reading John Densmore's book Riders on the Storm around the time it came out). But it was also formative for me so I don't know how much that affects my enjoyment as I was just getting into the doors right before it came out.

I revisited NBK, The Doors and U-Turn in the last year and enjoyed them all. U-Turn is the most consistent as a story but The Doors to me is an example of the right director and the right subject matter. It is really psychedelic and often silly, just as Morrison and much of the 60s could be.

The truly brilliant concert sequences lift the whole film, not sure if anyone has done it better in a fiction film.

 

[T. Foster]

DeNiro shooting Fonda for annoying the living shit out of him is one of the best scenes in Jackie Brown. I liked Bridget Fonda and wish she'd done more movies.

I had a huge crush on Bridget Fonda BITD (and still have one on her aunt Jane). I had a Point of No Return poster hanging in my college dorm. She always did good work even though she was usually working with mediocre (at best) screenplays. I wonder if there’s some untold story about why she never became a bigger star, but I’m glad she was able to retire on her own terms and has been enjoying post-celebrity life as Danny Elfman’s wife.

 

[Voros]

I had a huge crush on Bridget Fonda BITD (and still have one on her aunt Jane). I had. Point of No Return poster in my college dorm. She always did work even though she was usually working with mediocre (at best) screenplays. I wonder if there’s some untold story about why she never became a bigger star, but I’m glad she was able to retire on her own terms and has been enjoying post-celebrity life as Danny Elfman’s wife.

Yeah I hope she didn't have a run-in with Weinstein and get blacklisted like a lot of other good actors in the 90s did.

She's really good in Jackie Brown and proves herself a very talented comedic actor, no small thing.

 

[T. Foster]

I revisited NBK, The Doors and U-Turn in the last year and enjoyed them all. U-Turn is the most consistent as a story but The Doors to me is an example of the right director and the right subject matter. It is really psychedelic and often silly, just as Morrison and much of the 60s could be.

The truly brilliant concert sequences lift the whole film, not sure if anyone has done it better in a fiction film.

I loved the Doors movie when I was in high school (alongside The Lost Boys) but haven’t revisited it in decades and assumed that (much like the Doors themselves) it was a product of that stage in life that’s better left there than dragged into the harsh judgmental light of adulthood. Glad to hear it holds up to some extent. I guess that makes it my favorite Oliver Stone movie by default.

 

[Fenris-77]

I loved the Doors movie when I was in high school (alongside The Lost Boys) but haven’t revisited it in decades and assumed that (much like the Doors themselves) it was a product of that stage in life that’s better left there than dragged into the harsh judgmental light of adulthood. Glad to hear it holds up to some extent. I guess that makes it my favorite Oliver Stone movie by default.

The fact that Val Kilmer did all his own vocals doesn't hurt. That impressed the shit outta me.

 

[CRKrueger]

I'll admit that there is a lot to like about NBK. It put Woody Harrelson on the map as a great actor, and as I said earlier, Stone has a great sense of style. My main issue is that that "tabloid TV is evil" was a tired topic in the late '80s, let alone in 1994. Satirizing tabloid TV was certainly an element of the original screenplay, but Stone pushed it into Very Special Episode territory.

You had a point earlier about self-indulgences, but Oliver Stone’s excesses don’t excuse Tarantino’s.

With Tarantino, I look at a movie and imagine what parts Tarantino is in “coked up mode” and just going manic.
Yeah he’s indulging himself in Jackie Brown - by bringing Elmore Leonard’s writing to life through dialogue, similar to how Soderbergh did with Out of Sight, another great movie.

Tarantino’s not only adding Grindhouse to too many films, it’s self-aware Grindhouse. Tarantino needs someone (not a suit or committee) to just look at him and go “Dude, WTF are you doing?”

Inglourious Basterds opens with as chillingly brilliant a scene as you can get, with an Oscar-winning performance by Christopher Waltz. Fassbender, Kruger, Pitt, just great. Then comes the ending, and it could have been done straight, but it seems like no one ever tells him to pump the brakes, put down the coke and don’t Grindhouse the movie. Same with Once…Hollywood. What could be a GOAT movie descends into Tarantinoism.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I revisited NBK, The Doors and U-Turn in the last year and enjoyed them all. U-Turn is the most consistent as a story but The Doors to me is an example of the right director and the right subject matter. It is really psychedelic and often silly, just as Morrison and much of the 60s could be.

The truly brilliant concert sequences lift the whole film, not sure if anyone has done it better in a fiction film.

I watched Platoon again last year and it still had an impact like it did when I first saw it. I have been meaning to get back to the Doors at some point. U-Turn I haven't seen. I have a few movies in my queue right now and may check it out after I finish them.

 

[CRKrueger]

I'll admit that there is a lot to like about NBK. It put Woody Harrelson on the map as a great actor, and as I said earlier, Stone has a great sense of style. My main issue is that that "tabloid TV is evil" was a tired topic in the late '80s, let alone in 1994. Satirizing tabloid TV was certainly an element of the original screenplay, but Stone pushed it into Very Special Episode territory.

See, here I disagree with the “tired topic”. Social commentary shouldn’t be considered a tired topic, if it’s commentary is not only still topical, but in hindsight proven correct.

Some, for example, today say Cyberpunk is quaint and outdated because they laugh at the predictions of computer capability and the size of phones. Cyberpunk is more vital and necessary than ever considering we’re on the cusp of Designer Genetics, corporate missions to Mars and keep slowly slouching toward Global Corporate Hegemony.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Inglourious Basterds opens with as chillingly brilliant a scene as you can get, with an Oscar-winning performance by Christopher Waltz. Fassbender, Kruger, Pitt, just great. Then comes the ending, and it could have been done straight, but it seems like no one ever tells him to pump the brakes, put down the coke and don’t Grindhouse the movie. Same with Once…Hollywood. What could be a GOAT movie descends into Tarantinoism.

But that is arguably the best part of the movie. I think if he restrained himself more, it wouldn't have had the impact it did. Don't get me wrong, that opening scene is incredible and is definitely better due to his use of restraint. But that end scene in Inglorious Basterds is just delightfully violent and over the top (and it is cathartic in its rewriting of history).

 

[Voros]

I watched Platoon again last year and it still had an impact like it did when I first saw it. I have been meaning to get back to the Doors at some point. U-Turn I haven't seen. I have a few movies in my queue right now and may check it out after I finish them.

U-Turn is kind of unusual in being more overtly comedic than his other films, although very blackly comic.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

See, here I disagree with the “tired topic”. Social commentary shouldn’t be considered a tired topic, if it’s commentary is not only still topical, but in hindsight proven correct.

Some, for example, today say Cyberpunk is quaint and outdated because they laugh at the predictions of computer capability and the size of phones. Cyberpunk is more vital and necessary than ever considering we’re on the cusp of Designer Genetics, corporate missions to Mars and keep slowly slouching toward Global Corporate Hegemony.

Another thing that is fun about social commentary, when it is done well or done in a way that is at least compelling, is on the one hand it might still be relevant, but on the other there is enjoyment to be had watching this time capsule in film of concerns we no longer hold (either because our social notions have evolved or because we saw how things played out and it turned out the movie's worries were not well founded). I do find there is a lot of recurrence though. You can go back and watch plenty of films from the 60s and 70s and see many of the same social themes emerge that people would talk about today.

 

[CRKrueger]

Yeah I hope she didn't have a run-in with Weinstein and get blacklisted like a lot of other good actors in the 90s did.

She's really good in Jackie Brown and proves herself a very talented comedic actor, no small thing.

I had a huge crush on Bridget Fonda BITD (and still have one on her aunt Jane). I had a Point of No Return poster hanging in my college dorm. She always did good work even though she was usually working with mediocre (at best) screenplays. I wonder if there’s some untold story about why she never became a bigger star, but I’m glad she was able to retire on her own terms and has been enjoying post-celebrity life as Danny Elfman’s wife.

Yeah, Bridget Fonda was always great to watch. That Fonda charisma just gets you, plus she had the acting chops. I had that same Point of No Return poster.

 

[Voros]

But that is arguably the best part of the movie. I think if he restrained himself more, it wouldn't have had the impact it did. Don't get me wrong, that opening scene is incredible and is definitely better due to his use of restraint. But that end scene in Inglorious Basterds is just delightfully violent and over the top (and it is cathartic in its rewriting of history).

And once Pitt appears with that accent there's no way the rest of the film could be played completely straight.

 

[CRKrueger]

Another thing that is fun about social commentary, when it is done well or done in a way that is at least compelling, is on the one hand it might still be relevant, but on the other there is enjoyment to be had watching this time capsule in film of concerns we no longer hold (either because our social notions have evolved or because we saw how things played out and it turned out the movie's worries were not well founded). I do find there is a lot of recurrence though. You can go back and watch plenty of films from the 60s and 70s and see many of the same social themes emerge that people would talk about today.

People talk about Shakespeare today, because some human themes and conflicts will probably always be relevant.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

And once Pitt appears with that accent there's no way the rest of the film could be played completely straight.

Lol. That is true. I found his personality in that movie worked for me (I found the Buongiorno scene hysterical).

 

[CRKrueger]

And once Pitt appears with that accent there's no way the rest of the film could be played completely straight.

True, that is a good point. It’s the part of the film where it veers off.

 

[Voros]

Lol. That is true. I found his personality in that movie worked for me (I found the Buongiorno scene hysterical).

There were elements that turned me off the film a bit on first viewing but subsquently I've come to like it more for what does work so well in it.

I like the fantasy turn but do think QT is too butter-fingered when dealing with the morality of his tale. Some of the bad taste is purposeful but some of it seems inadvertent.

 

[hawkeyefan]

There were elements that turned me off the film a bit on first viewing but subsquently I've come to like it more for what does work so well in it.

I like the fantasy turn but do think QT is too butter-fingered when dealing with the morality of his tale. Some of the bad taste is purposeful but some of it seems inadvertent.

I like how the film becomes the kind of war propaganda that’s so central to the story. Like Hitler’s giggling as the sniper in the film continues and then we kind of become the same kind of audience once the plan goes into effect.

I don’t mind the tonal shift because I feel like it relates to the themes of the movie.

 

[Mankcam]

Only here at the Pub can a thread on Wizards of the Coast derail into discussions about the most contemporary film directors of our era, particularly since this is a derailment off a throw away comment of mine - beautiful to see, I just love checking the forums here every day, heh heh

 

[Brock Savage]

I don't see the appeal of Natural Born Killers; even as a callow young man I thought it failed to deliver any meaningful social criticism despite beating the viewer over the head with it. I didn't find any of it particularly shocking or edgy; back in the 90's I lived for that kinda stuff and it failed to live up to its reputation for me. The legion of dumb white trash girls I've met who romanticize it as a love story haven't improved my opinion of the film.

 

[Baulderstone]

The film peaks early though with its very dark parody of sitcoms in the sequence featuring Rodney Dangerfield as Mallory's sexually abusive father.

Given that I only saw the movie one, I'll admit my judgement of the movie might be skewed by the movie being weaker at the end. I do remember the early part of the movie being very dark and disturbing, but I was bored by the end of the movie.

I recently re-watched Terminator 2 for BedrockBrendan's podcast, which was another movie I found disappointing and only watched once. Seeing it again, it was much better then I remembered, with the biggest weaknesses coming near the end.

See, here I disagree with the “tired topic”. Social commentary shouldn’t be considered a tired topic, if it’s commentary is not only still topical, but in hindsight proven correct.

Some, for example, today say Cyberpunk is quaint and outdated because they laugh at the predictions of computer capability and the size of phones. Cyberpunk is more vital and necessary than ever considering we’re on the cusp of Designer Genetics, corporate missions to Mars and keep slowly slouching toward Global Corporate Hegemony.

I agree with you in general, but the difference is that cyberpunk at least had the advantage of being ahead of the curve when it was new.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I recently re-watched Terminator 2 for BedrockBrendan's podcast, which was another movie I found disappointing and only watched once. Seeing it again, it was much better then I remembered, with the biggest weaknesses coming near the end.

I was late but just posted that one.

I agree with you in general, but the difference is that cyberpunk at least had the advantage of being ahead of the curve when it was new.

My biggest issue with social commentary is when it interferes with the movie (which I think can easily happen if people aren't careful)

 

[Bunch]

Yeah I hope she didn't have a run-in with Weinstein and get blacklisted like a lot of other good actors in the 90s did.

She's really good in Jackie Brown and proves herself a very talented comedic actor, no small thing.

I think she just found a good guy and then a few years later I gather got into a bad car accident. I hope she's happy and healthy these days

 

[BedrockBrendan]

People talk about Shakespeare today, because some human themes and conflicts will probably always be relevant.

This is one reason I love going to older books and movies

 

[BedrockBrendan]

The fact that Val Kilmer did all his own vocals doesn't hurt. That impressed the shit outta me.

I did like that about the movie. I remember them talking about that when it came out and looking for it when I watched it

 

[Baulderstone]

I don't see the appeal of Natural Born Killers; even as a callow young man I thought it failed to deliver any meaningful social criticism despite beating the viewer over the head with it. I didn't find any of it particularly shocking or edgy; back in the 90's I lived for that kinda stuff and it failed to live up to its reputation for me. The legion of dumb white trash girls I've met who romanticize it as a love story haven't improved my opinion of the film.

That is a good point. If you want to view it as social commentary, I can't say I ever met anybody who didn't realize that trashy tabloid TV was trashy until NBK opened their eyes, but I do remember plenty of people whole thought Mickey and Mallory were awesome.

 

[Acmegamer]

Oh my God that's fantastic.



Never could bring myself to watch Kill Bill.

 

[Andrew J. Luther]

The legion of dumb white trash girls I've met who romanticize it as a love story haven't improved my opinion of the film.

I was dating one of those when that movie came out. Saw it three times in the theatre, but it was well worth it every time.

 

[Gringnr]

That is a good point. If you want to view it as social commentary, I can't say I ever met anybody who didn't realize that trashy tabloid TV was trashy until NBK opened their eyes, but I do remember plenty of people whole thought Mickey and Mallory were awesome.

I don't see the appeal of Natural Born Killers; even as a callow young man I thought it failed to deliver any meaningful social criticism despite beating the viewer over the head with it. I didn't find any of it particularly shocking or edgy; back in the 90's I lived for that kinda stuff and it failed to live up to its reputation for me. The legion of dumb white trash girls I've met who romanticize it as a love story haven't improved my opinion of the film.

And that was exactly what I meant about it sailing over people's heads. I remember sitting in the theater, and it was like I was watching a different movie from everyone else.

 

[TJS]

And that was exactly what I meant about it sailing over people's heads. I remember sitting in the theater, and it was like I was watching a different movie from everyone else.

I felt that with the Watchman movie. I was in a cinema full of people who seemed to be expecting the movie to deliver Friday night spectacle and a cathartic ending. The feeling of growing anger and frustration in the audience was palpable.

 

[James Gillen]

EXTRA EXTRA:

Hasbro: "We Finally Rolled A 20!"

Hollywood is alight with the news that Quentin Tarrantino's final masterpiece now has a new title:

" Reservoir Dungeons: Once Upon A Time In Waterdeep"

Details are sketchy, but lead roles have been confirmed, with Brad Pitt playing the role of "The Rogue", alongside Leonardo DiCaprio, who will be playing the role of "The Bard".

A sprawling ensemble cast is rumoured to be on board with appearances from notable names including Samuel L. Jackson, Tim Roth, Ian McShane, Zoe Saldana, Harvey Keital, Christoph Waltz, Ed Harris, Kurt Russel, Brad Dourif, Titus Welliver, Bruce Dern, Juliette Lewis, Timothy Oliphant, Salma Hayek, Norman Reedus, Jamie Foxx, Steve Bucemi, Mads Mikkelsen, Uma Thurman, Jeffrey Wright, Zoe Bell, Woody Harrelson, Ben Mendelsohn, Travis Fimmel, Walter Goggins, Michael Madsen, Tom Waits, and Danny Trejo, as yet in unconfirmed supporting roles.

The plot is rumoured to be inspired from one of Tarrantino's famous epic one-shot D&D sessions that was alleged to run a full weekend after one of the esteemed Director's infamous private screenings, during which the participants allegedly played 48 hours straight of classic OSR rules.

It is unclear if the scenario goals were fully resolved, or if it was an actual TPK; although several insiders have speculated that neither outcome is mutually exclusive.

'Blades & Blood', Tarrantino's new D&D OSR heartbreaker rpg, has seen sales go thru the roof in recent weeks with news of this film tie-in announcement

Watch PUBTube tonight for live stream of Blades & Blood, with mystery Mod GM hosting 4 hrs non-stop gaming action!

I'd watch it.

JG