Mutants & Masterminds 3e

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Llew ap Hywel

Llew ap Hywel

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So this is getting talked up a bit at the moment.

I was heavily invested into 2e and have the corebook (unread) for 3e. Unlikely to pick up since my group sucks at playing superhero games but...

What’s everyone’s opinion on the update.
Good hero system?
Is the setting still good comic book fun?
Any play experience?
 
Left it at 1e. That was too crunchy, and by all reports it's just got crunchier with each new edition.
 
What OHT said. I've never actually finished character creation with any version of M&M, despite multiple attempts.
 
Mutants & Masterminds 3E character creation is very crunchy. If you don't want to use the quick character generator provided in the deluxe edition, the Hero Lab software really, really helps. I deal with numbers and spreadsheets all day, five days a week. I have no interest in dealing with numbers nor spreadsheets in my off time.

It runs fine in actual play though.
 
Apparition said:
Mutants & Masterminds 3E character creation is very crunchy. If you don't want to use the quick character generator provided in the deluxe edition, the Hero Lab software really, really helps. I deal with numbers and spreadsheets all day, five days a week. I have no interest in dealing with numbers nor spreadsheets in my off time.

It runs fine in actual play though.
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I have a standing rule that if a game needs a spreadsheet or generator to make characters, I'm playing a different game.
 
M&M doesn't need a spreadsheet or generator to make characters. Using a spreadsheet or generator helps, but I've written numerous characters with and without the use of Hero Lab. It's fine.
 
I never found 2e character creation too bad, how does 3e compare to that?
 
Belle Sorciere said:
M&M doesn't need a spreadsheet or generator to make characters. Using a spreadsheet or generator helps, but I've written numerous characters with and without the use of Hero Lab. It's fine.
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I disagree and ditched it for games that better suited my sensibilities.
 
If they drastically scaled back Feats into a leaner, clearer Advantage (and possibly Drawback) system, I might be buying.
 
Tommy Brownell said:
I disagree and ditched it for games that better suited my sensibilities.
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I guess you can disagree with literal experiences I've had. I mean, it doesn't make much sense to do so but I guess you're entitled to your own opinion over stuff that really happened in the real world. That is, I have genuinely written characters without the use of spreadsheets or Hero Lab. I prefer to use Hero Lab, but it's not required. The game is fine. That doesn't mean it's going to suit everyone, and I wouldn't expect it to.
 
I came across a statement elsewhere last night that Green Ronin is working on another edition of Mutants & Masterminds, meant to streamline 3E? I haven't seen news of this anywhere other than that off comment I read last night, so take it with two large grains of salt.
 
Apparition said:
I came across a statement elsewhere last night that Green Ronin is working on another edition of Mutants & Masterminds, meant to streamline 3E? I haven't seen news of this anywhere other than that off comment I read last night, so take it with two large grains of salt.
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Can't recall seeing that anywhere myself. And I frequent their forums.
 
It turns out that it's true. See here also.

Every hero needs an origin story and this can be yours! Written with new gamers in mind, the Basic Hero's Handbook streamlines and clarifies the flexible, robust third edition rules of Mutants & Masterminds. With simplified character creation and a selection of ready-made adventures, the Mutants & Masterminds Basic Hero's Handbook lets players jump right into the action. The book is fully compatible with the Deluxe Hero's Handbook and the entire library of third edition Mutants & Masterminds supplements, instantly expanding your character options and adventure potential. Whether you're just getting started, or want an extra player-friendly reference at the table, the Mutants & Masterminds Basic Hero's Handbook is the choice for your world-saving needs!
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Amazon lists it as coming out the end of next month, but apparently it's been delayed until sometime next year.
 
The only streamlining 3E needs IMO is character creation, which seems to be a big goal of the upcoming Basic edition. So, that and compatibility with the large amount of 3E material already out there may turn it into a winner. I'll be picking it up when it comes out next year.
 
I tried to join a PbP a while back, with a GM I've played with a number of times, so I was looking forward to a good experience. However, I ended up dropping out of the game due to the chargen process. I had never tried to make a character in a system that actually triggered one of my anxiety attacks before ... It wasn't just that it was crunchy. It was that it was supposed to result in characters balanced by power level, and it did no such thing. I created a character based on one of the archetypes, spent all the same points as everyone else, and kept getting feedback from the GM and other players that the character would be unplayable with the rest of the group. If that was really the case, then I can't quite figure out what the point of power levels and point-buy actually is ... Anyway, it could have been a fluke, but it was the one and only time I tried M&M, and I'll be staying away from now on.
 
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TheophilusCarter said:
I tried to join a PbP a while back, with a GM I've played with a number of times, so I was looking forward to a good experience. However, I ended up dropping out of the game due to the chargen process. I had never tried to make a character in a system that actually triggered one of my anxiety attacks before ... It wasn't just that it was crunchy. It was that it was supposed to result in characters balanced by power level, and it did no such thing. I created a character based on one of the archetypes, spent all the same points as everyone else, and kept getting feedback from the GM and other players that the character would be unplayable with the rest of the group. If that was really the case, then I can't quite figure out what the point of power levels and point-buy actually is ... Anyway, it could have been a fluke, but it was the one and only time I tried M&M, and I'll be staying away from now on.
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Power level and number of points aren't the only factors that balance your character. There's also your attack bonus, the amount of damage you do, your defense, and your saving throws. If these are too low you will fare poorly in games intended for your power level.
 
Belle Sorciere said:
Power level and number of points aren't the only factors that balance your character. There's also your attack bonus, the amount of damage you do, your defense, and your saving throws. If these are too low you will fare poorly in games intended for your power level.
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Yah, that's the impression I got too. The problem was, being new to the game, and having no better advice than "Use an archetype and stick to the power level," I apparently couldn't manage ... At that point, things are waaaaay too complicated for me, and I'd rather stick with ICONS.
 
Belle Sorciere said:
I guess you can disagree with literal experiences I've had. I mean, it doesn't make much sense to do so but I guess you're entitled to your own opinion over stuff that really happened in the real world. That is, I have genuinely written characters without the use of spreadsheets or Hero Lab. I prefer to use Hero Lab, but it's not required. The game is fine. That doesn't mean it's going to suit everyone, and I wouldn't expect it to.
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That's literally all I was saying. I got to the end of the bean counting and was going back, figuring modifiers where I missed points or whatever and ditched it. I literally have about a dozen half to 3/4 finished M&M characters around here. Decided it's not for me. Moved on to other games.

I have no doubt that you have created characters. I apologize if I wasn't clear enough that I meant it doesn't work *for me* without generators or spreadsheets, and that's a huge red flag *for me* that a system isn't worth my time, effort or money.
 
TheophilusCarter said:
Yah, that's the impression I got too. The problem was, being new to the game, and having no better advice than "Use an archetype and stick to the power level," I apparently couldn't manage ... At that point, things are waaaaay too complicated for me, and I'd rather stick with ICONS.
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When I ran M&M3e recently, pretty much no one else had played the game before, so I wrote most of the PCs, and worked with the players to insure they were balanced for their power level. IMO, GMs should be proactive on that front rather than simply expect players to get it right their first time out. I'm sorry your first experience was so bad. :sad:

Tommy Brownell said:
That's literally all I was saying. I got to the end of the bean counting and was going back, figuring modifiers where I missed points or whatever and ditched it. I literally have about a dozen half to 3/4 finished M&M characters around here. Decided it's not for me. Moved on to other games.

I have no doubt that you have created characters. I apologize if I wasn't clear enough that I meant it doesn't work *for me* without generators or spreadsheets, and that's a huge red flag *for me* that a system isn't worth my time, effort or money.
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Sorry, I was touchy earlier and misinterpreted what you wrote. It's all good, and it's not for everyone. I acknowledge that.
 
Belle Sorciere said:
Sorry, I was touchy earlier and misinterpreted what you wrote. It's all good, and it's not for everyone. I acknowledge that.
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No harm, no foul, we're good. It actually made me sad I couldn't get my head around it, because the writing on the M&M books I own all seemed pretty great.
 
Tommy Brownell said:
No harm, no foul, we're good. It actually made me sad I couldn't get my head around it, because the writing on the M&M books I own all seemed pretty great.
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IMO the books have some of the best writing on adapting the superhero genre to RPGs around. I get them just as much for that as for the mechanics.

Anyway, I found that actual play tends to run fairly smoothly, even with players who aren't fully familiar with the rules. Since they're a modified version of d20 they're pretty straightforward.
 
I've always been curious about games such as M&M and Hero, where the character creation process is so involved and time-consuming - what benefit does this ultimately provide? Is there something to recommend the system overall over FASERIP or DCH?
 
TristramEvans said:
I've always been curious about games such as M&M and Hero, where the character creation process is so involved and time-consuming - what benefit does this ultimately provide? Is there something to recommend the system overall over FASERIP or DCH?
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I can't speak to Hero, but M&M makes ME happy because I don't ever (ever!) have to prepare npcs for anything. I know what PL the villain is gonna be, I can run the baddies off the top of my head with a blank piece of paper. Easy peasy to gm.
 
Jetstream said:
I can't speak to Hero, but M&M makes ME happy because I don't ever (ever!) have to prepare npcs for anything. I know what PL the villain is gonna be, I can run the baddies off the top of my head with a blank piece of paper. Easy peasy to gm.
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So NPCs/antagonists aren't created in the same way as characters?
 
TristramEvans said:
So NPCs/antagonists aren't created in the same way as characters?
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They absolutely can be, but I don't feel the need to.

I know how all the powers work, generally, so all that I really need to know is what PL I want the villain to be. Then I can ad-lib the rest, once I write down what his attack + damage and defenses are. The effects are really easy for me to fake in my head, barring some of the complicated ones like Summon or Weaken.
 
It's my supers game of choice, and of the three games I am running right now, my favorite.

As for complexity, this may not be saying much, but some of my players also occasionally play a Champions game, and they say that the M&M 3e game is a breath of fresh air compared to their Champions game. They say in their Champions game, they usually spend the whole session playing 1 combat. My 4-5 hour sessions usually have 2-3 combats plus investigation and roleplaying.

The Deluxe Hero's Handbooks seems to comfortably fit the complexity-tolerance of all the players. I have two players who had little tolerance who used pre-gen/archtype characters. Two teens who wanted a little choice and a little randomness used the quick generation sequence. And two players who are crunch-tolerant brewed their characters from scratch.

Gameplay-wise, I don't like it quite as much as DC Heroes, but it's flexible enough. And I like the chargen better. It's a step towards the detail of Champions/Hero from DC Heroes, which is about where it needs to be IMO.

It's got good third party (and first-party!) support, and Hero Lab is a nice tool for the GM (though honestly, the power level rules and the fact that "points are for PCs" means you can handwave much of what you do.)

If I have any criticisms, it would be that the combat is a little soft on the players and can be a little grindy from my side of the screen (though the players seems to enjoy it.)
 
Like Caesar Slaad says, M&M 3e is a breath of fresh air compared to Champions. I played Champions for many years and while the group I played in always had a lot of fun, it was very time consuming to make characters.

But I'll agree that M&M tends to be too crunchy for a lot of people.
 
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