Mod+ Mythic Polynesia

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Yeah, I used to do performance poetry and at one point I ruthlessly pulled all the poems that weren't getting a decent audience reaction from my set.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
You love me
And I love you
 
A company deciding to correct their own mistakes isn't what I would consider censorship.

Unless we have any reason to believe that OBS pulled the product themselves, but I highly doubt that.

In my opinion, they released a product that they supported wholeheartedly - So they are bowing to the external pressure of a tiny few. To me, this is complete self-censorship just to appease a couple of peeps on Twitter. But they would never have done it if it hadn't been for a few whiners.

I just don't think any art should be sanitized because it pissed a few people off.
 
In my opinion, they released a product that they supported wholeheartedly - So they are bowing to the external pressure of a tiny few. To me, this is complete self-censorship just to appease a couple of peeps on Twitter. But they would never have done it if it hadn't been for a few whiners.

I just don't think any art should be sanitized because it pissed a few people off.
We follow this path to its extreme and we’ll see the return to people only publishing European flavoured settings for fear of a pile on costing them money or needing to hire 100 ‘consultants’ to make sure no one can take offence.

Hell taken far enough all games will be mechanics only.
 
In my opinion, they released a product that they supported wholeheartedly - So they are bowing to the external pressure of a tiny few. To me, this is complete self-censorship just to appease a couple of peeps on Twitter. But they would never have done it if it hadn't been for a few whiners.

I just don't think any art should be sanitized because it pissed a few people off.

There were also legitimate criticisms of false information, from a line that is otherwise well known for good scholarship. To me, correcting that (if that is the intention) is miles away from if they simply stopped selling it because people were pissed off. But without any public statements addressing this, we really don't know what's going on. My hope is that my assumption is correct, because that means we get a superior gaming product.
 
There were also legitimate criticisms of false information, from a line that is otherwise well known for good scholarship. To me, correcting that (if that is the intention) is miles away from if they simply stopped selling it because people were pissed off. But without any public statements addressing this, we really don't know what's going on. My hope is that my assumption is correct, because that means we get a superior gaming product.
But I'm afraid the other assumption ight be closer to the truth:shade:!
 
But I'm afraid the other assumption ight be closer to the truth!

Seems unlikely to me or it would have been accompanied by some kind of public apology or something. I also doubt that they'd just scrap all the work that they've done, they're a small company and only release a few books every year.
 
Seems unlikely to me or it would have been accompanied by some kind of public apology or something. I also doubt that they'd just scrap all the work that they've done, they're a small company and only release a few books every year.
I guess we'll see once/if the PDF gets re-released:thumbsdown:!
 
A public statement would go a long way to dampen the rampant speculation
I agree. A quick tweet or Facebook post or anything doesn’t take that long to come up with, even if a detailed explanation needs more time to craft. You can always add on to your statement at a later date.
 
Honestly, speaking for myself, I know I'd be reluctant to wade into those shark-infested waters, so on that level at least I can understand the silence. I assume they will eventually say something about it, maybe waiting until the heat is off isn't that bad a choice in this day and age, rather than allowing one's words to get picked apart in bad faith. But, I dunno, I don't run a company.
 
Or people could sit on their hands a few days and wait for a response. Life doesn't require instant feedback.
I agree with that but this has been going on for a minute, it isn’t like the criticism started this morning.
 
I agree with that but this has been going on for a minute, it isn’t like the criticism started this morning.
I feel like everyone forgot what life was like when communication took weeks to respond to not minutes or days. They took the PDF down. They're selling the books already printed. Now they sort out what to do next. Nothing is demanding a faster response than that
 
For good or ill before the current social media this probably would have never gotten the attention it has. Yes somethings, Song of the South, were noticed but I feel something like this would have slipped through last century.
 
But that is beyond the scope of this forum, I look forward to the updated PDF and am happy I purchased the old one so I still have surfing rules if that update takes a long time.
 
Sometimes you can dump a big bucket of water on a fire by putting out a press release, even if it’s only a couple of sentences. This isn’t just about a mob on Twitter. Some people had legitimate gripes and wanted to know how they were going to answer.
 
Also at least from what I can see it is still for sale on DrivethruRPG, I just looked and the PDF is still there along with all the PoD options.
 
Some people had legitimate gripes and wanted to know how they were going to answer.
I'm still not clear on what the gripes, legitimate or not, were... except for some bean counting in regards to the personage of the folks writing it not checking the right boxes.
Mostly I just see the traditional performative butt-hurt of non-customers happy to pile on for attaboy points.

Is there any evidence of it actually effecting sales?
 
I'm still not clear on what the gripes, legitimate or not, were...

False stereotypes, inaccurate descriptions of cultural traditions, outdated historical sources, linguistic inaccuracies, conflating the traditions of unrelated cultures.

The book was gone over in depth by a fellow named "Liam" on Twitter, a native Maori who is also an RPG author, IIRC.
 
I'm still not clear on what the gripes, legitimate or not, were... except for some bean counting in regards to the personage of the folks writing it not checking the right boxes.
Mostly I just see the traditional performative butt-hurt of non-customers happy to pile on for attaboy points.

Is there any evidence of it actually effecting sales?
Some of the criticisms were for the bibliography and how it was scant. Some of it was the material in the bibliography was old and used by racists to justify particular positions. Some of it was inaccuracies that were considered to be preventable by the parties involved.

myself, my one main criticism (I don’t have enough knowledge about the racism issues) is that it had a cultural characteristic table and stereotypes, which is extremely unusual for a Mythras product. I went back through and checked most of my collection and I was unable to find something similar for sets of humans. This struck me as odd, and since the bonuses were so small (+1s) it seemed pretty counter to what I had understood Mythras ethos to be.
 
Art that pisses no one off probably isn't very good.

I see... I don't think that's all that accurate, tbh. I could name many artists, musicians, and writers that really slapped the face of the traditional establishment and were hated by a select few. But they did very well out of it and far beyond just financial gain, they sent ripples far and wide.

Of course, art is very subjective... And if someone isn't happy with something that you've created - who cares?

But if TDM feel they have to bow to a few 'nobodies' then that's up to them. I just wouldn't do it personally...
 
False stereotypes, inaccurate descriptions of cultural traditions, outdated historical sources, linguistic inaccuracies, conflating the traditions of unrelated cultures.
So stuff that's been fairly common among fantasy RPGs for quite a while? Though maybe less so with certain lines... Mythras, GURPS, whatever other lines with a rep for good research.
Like, maybe this is below par for TDM... but is it particularly agregious beyond that?
I'm not sure how much I care, since I'd never present anything I'd run as realistic or accurate anyway. Oriental adventures was obviously not 'Asia Authentic' but I had fun with it and doubt it caused any actual harm in the world.

While I think that's true, I think it's equally true of many of the book's supposed supporters from what I've seen.
I'm not sure if I'm one of those or not... but I do have a bit of a knee-jerk response to other people's knee-jerk response.
 
That's not an excuse.
Of course not... but how much needs to be excused?
Like, I've seen games crash because someone at the table felt the need to pick apart the GM's map of an airport, or representation of a particular weapon, or some historical detail. Everyone is an expert on something that no one else really wants to make a fuss about.
So how bad is this book? Is it RaHoWa bad? Myfarog bad? WOD Gypsies bad? Some wild west game that uses 'redskin' because that was a common term at the time?
Does TDM have a problem or is 'Liam' expecting too much? Somewhere in between?
 
I'm not sure if I'm one of those or not... but I do have a bit of a knee-jerk response to other people's knee-jerk response.
Only you can answer that really. Is your reaction based on research and substantive facts or is it based primarily on reacting to Internet drama? See, reason I haven't given a direct response to the book is because a) I haven't read it and b) I don't know the topic well enough to give a judgement without more research than I'm currently willing to do.

And I certainly don't have enough data either way to join the "sides" that seem to be forming on this.
 
See, reason I haven't given a direct response to the book is because a) I haven't read it and b) I don't know the topic well enough to give a judgement without more research than I'm currently willing to do.
I'm in the same place... except for being inclined toward skepticism about the degree of 'offense' anyone is claiming, vs. just picking nits.
 
Of course not... but how much needs to be excused?
Like, I've seen games crash because someone at the table felt the need to pick apart the GM's map of an airport, or representation of a particular weapon, or some historical detail. Everyone is an expert on something that no one else really wants to make a fuss about.
So how bad is this book? Is it RaHoWa bad? Myfarog bad? WOD Gypsies bad? Some wild west game that uses 'redskin' because that was a common term at the time?
Does TDM have a problem or is 'Liam' expecting too much? Somewhere in between?

So stuff that's been fairly common among fantasy RPGs for quite a while? Though maybe less so with certain lines... Mythras, GURPS, whatever other lines with a rep for good research.
Like, maybe this is below par for TDM... but is it particularly agregious beyond that?
I'm not sure how much I care, since I'd never present anything I'd run as realistic or accurate anyway. Oriental adventures was obviously not 'Asia Authentic' but I had fun with it and doubt it caused any actual harm in the world.


I'm not sure if I'm one of those or not... but I do have a bit of a knee-jerk response to other people's knee-jerk response.

Indeed... it's a game(s) written for having fun. There was no conscious effort to 'upset' anyone. In both games incidentally (and Oriental Adventures) there is a disclaimer mentioning that it's not meant to be accurate per se.

Incidentally, MP, must have been doing rather well despite a few whiners as it was no. 3 on Drivethru for a while.
 
Of course not... but how much needs to be excused?
Like, I've seen games crash because someone at the table felt the need to pick apart the GM's map of an airport, or representation of a particular weapon, or some historical event. Everyone is an expert on something that no one else really wants to make a fuss about.

I think the drawing line would be "cause no harm". I admittedly know nothing about the cultures represented or the history, other than a general understanding of historical exploitation by European settlers (I know a little bit about the history in New Zealand, but it is a little bit, to the point I'd be uncomfortable participating in a conversation about it). This is one) why I was interested in the book - because the Mythras line has, heretofore set a high standard of scholarship, and two) why I would take at face value the claims of someone who is a part of and deeply knowledgeable regarding the culture and history stating that the book reinforces certain very harmful racial stereotypes and is riddled with inaccuracies.

Now, I don't agree with all of his criticisms because many come from an ideological framework that I do not share, and I don't need to know anything about any one particular culture to have a different perspective in general on concepts like "cultural appropriation". Moreover, I don't agree with the behaviour or condemnations of other folks who clearly have their own agendas. And based just on what I've actually seen myself, I'm sure TDM has had to deal with more than it's fair share of exaggerated, inappropriate, and utterly unproductive hatemongering and threats from badfaith actors looking for any excuse to get off on their latest hit of self-righteousness, because that's sadly par for the course these days.

But that doesn't invalidate the legitimate critiques, even if it increases the signal to noise ratio to the point that fair points can get drowned out.

From the perspective of the target audience for this book however, (as a fan of Mythras in general and the Mythic Earth gameline in particular), it is disappointing to go from a standard set by books like Mythic Babylon to a book where I know I cannot trust the information presented. Especially where I am intrigued by a subject that is largely unique in RPGs and I know very little about myself.

And in this day and age there really isn't a good excuse for reproducing or spreading racial or cultural stereotypes associated with historical oppression or bigotry. And I say that's the line because, for example, I wouldn't need a game about say, the Old West, to be perfectly historically accurate, but if it presented archaic stereotypes about natives or slaves, that would not only be irresponsible but incredibly tonedeaf to the current world we are living in and the expectations of a modern audience.


So how bad is this book? Is it RaHoWa bad? Myfarog bad? WOD Gypsies bad? Some wild west game that uses 'redskin' because that was a common term at the time?
Does TDM have a problem or is 'Liam' expecting too much?

It's probably a step above "WoD: Gypsies Bad" (I dunno, as someone of that particular lineage I have a lot of personal thoughts regarding that one in particular). It's nowhere close to RaHoWa or Myfrarog, which are actively malicious - I do believe this book was written with the best of intentions.

Does Liam have a point? Seems so to me. Not enough to justify a boycott (and certainly not internet hate mobs nor harassment of the publisher) , IMO, but enough that , for me personally anyways, the book went from an "instant buy" to "maybe I'll pick it up if I have some extra cash at some point, but it's not high on my list of priorities".

I do think there's a good middleground between Liam's "everything should be 100% accurate to what I say" and "this book is just fantasy, it doesn't matter what anybody says or feels about how it represents real world cultures", and as I stated previously, the best case scenario to my mind is a slight revision of the text based on contemporary or firsthand sources to bring it up to a standard that it can comfortably sit among the other titles in the Mythic Earth line without being a black sheep.
 
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