Mod+ Mythic Polynesia

[CRKrueger]

I think this distinction is lost on the VAST majority of folks. “This is the most racist…” and the brain shuts off. There is no distinction between the product and the person.

I also have some thoughts about genuine mistakes that revolve around race - one could make a mistake about a race, genuinely make an error, and then be called racist. No I’ll intent was ever conceived, but they’ve been put in the same place as the KKK in my country. That is not even remotely fair. I’m not implying that this happened here, but I think it is more likely the case than the other way. This ties into a. Last point you made, but I’ll wait for there.

Frankly, I’m not sure why they would participate in any discussion. There are a small brigade of folks on Twitter and on TBP who are for sure never buying any TDM product ever again because they are definitely the most racist folks in the rpg world. Except we know that’s just not true.

They say their sorry, won’t happen again. Everyone screams why aren’t you removing the book! Cancel them! Until they get the exact solution they want, which will be harmful and likely kill the game entirely, they won’t be satisfied. There is no evidence of this, no matter how much you might want it to be true.

what was the point in speaking up at all? The rest of Polynesia lost a game that was reasonably accurate to them, and now you lost understanding.

This is why the private conversation has to lead. Because now there won’t be cooperation. There will be just ignoring. There will be just animosity. There won’t be any understanding or healing or even working on racism.

But, you know, you didn’t call out Dr Shirley alone. The calls aren’t to boycott Dr Shirley. TDM is the one that is supposed to respond.

yes, it would have been easy for Dr. Shirley to get a modern book. Don’t get me wrong on this. A single google search for me indicated there were waters I needed to pay attention to. That it is a controversial topic. My first “google suggested search” it after putting in moriori was “moriori genocide” and the first link lead me to a news article that dispelled the myth and that it was a hot bed issue. That’s a low bar as far as I am concerned.

There is plenty they can do, but I think there is no evidence that it will actually fix the situation. One can hope mark submits a new section that is better researched and a v2 gets published, but I think there is plenty the community can do as well. I’ve encouraged folks to email them directly, as that seems to work the best. Yelling on Twitter is just a tool to drive people away.

I would like a word for “racist but honestly doesn’t know” and “unintentionally racist material” that neither one say the word racism. Not because they don’t need to be corrected, but because no one wants to hear anything associated with them called racist. Everyone’s brains shut off. They instantly do exactly what has been happening. Even actual racists hate being called racist - their brains shut off too. They just get defensive and fight. Nothing is going to be changed with that.


MYFAROG is the Godwin’s rule of the rpg community. Simple at that. Unfortunately , it was very early in your tweet stream. However, I’ll take your concession in the spirit it is intended. It happens to all of us.

im trying to make threadreaderapp unroll your whole thread so it’s. A bit easier for folks with disabilities to read. I’ve said repeatedly, in this thread, I think it is important to read and to fully digest what you are saying. I was hoping for something less inflammatory and still productive for change.

See, the thing is, by definition, racism requires intent. You can be unknowingly incorrect, offensive, and hurtful. You can't be Bigoted or Racist by accident. There were people who put forward the idea that the Moriori were displaced and thus inferior to the Maori, therefore the Maori deserve to be displaced by the superior British. That was racism. Reading an academic work that claims the Morituri were the first settlers of New Zealand and going off that source incorrectly is not racism. It means you committed an error and unwittingly stumbled onto a current cultural and legal landmine.

 

[Raleel]

See, the thing is, by definition, racism requires intent

And thus I go look for a definition, and lo and behold, there isn’t an agreed upon one. Ministry of justice of New Zealand even says that.

Partition of India - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

ms marvel, the tv show, talks about this fairly extensively. I actually knew nothing about it at all.

 

[Endless Flight]

There are many more ways to get people to understand each other and to get things accomplished without using the term racist immediately. Like if someone says “if I don’t hear from TDM in x amount of time, I’m going to assume they are racist”, how is that getting people on the same page? Shouldn’t it be a one-on-one conversation instead? Maybe shoot them an email?

If you use TDM’s track record for delivering quality products as a benchmark, why would anyone assume they are racists if they mishandle one product? Like where is the benefit of the doubt without getting out the torches and pitchforks right away?

 

[Agemegos]

I can find it a bit odd to take stock and think about how a place such as India is still more than twenty years away from a full century of independence. You can have media in which an American teenager can have a grandparent with memories of partition.

Partition? Are you referring to Jim Crow Laws / Segregation? I've lived in the US my whole life and am not familiar with that phrase if that is what it refers to. A quick google only turned up some sites that I'm afraid to click on as I suspect they are related to the chaps that wear white sheets with pointy hoods.

Partition of India - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TristramEvans]

And thus I go look for a definition, and lo and behold, there isn’t an agreed upon one. Ministry of justice of New Zealand even says that.

I don't think racism is that hard to define: it's making a judgement about an individual based on preconceived notions about their race. People trying to redefine it in recent years are doing so through an ideological lens that views the world in terms of power structures, with the primary motivation being to create "acceptable targets". But this doesn't erase the original definition and ultimately is attempting to sidestep the reason that racism is wrong. To put it another way, the existence of Institutional Racism neither supplants nor creates an excuse for (non-institutional) Racism.

I agree with Kruegar that racism is intentional, in that, without any other evidence, the worst that can be said about Dr. Shirley or TDM is that they produced a work that apparently contains racist stereotypes. The leap from that to calling them racist implies knowledge no one here possesses: namely that they deliberately included racist stereotypes, not through a fault in research, rather because they believe something about those races. Misinformation about historical events isn't racist, regardless of how that misinformation applies to current racial tensions. The source of that misinformation, however, could be racist.

It seems very unlikely to me that the author or TDM are racist, I believe Mythic Polynesia was a labour of love, and this mis-step was completely accidental. I think, as per our own guidelines here at The Pub, calling them racist requires evidence that hasn't been produced (and likely doesn't exist).

 

[Toadmaster]

Partition of India - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you, I remember that partition from high school world history.

It was this bit that threw me:

You can have media in which an American teenager can have a grandparent with memories of partition.

Started with India but then added the bit about an American teenagers grandparents, so thought he was shifting to North America as a perhaps more accessible example since a large number of us here are in the US. Presumably there are many more teens in India and Pakistan that remember that partition, so the American part was a bit of a non-sequitur for me.

If a comment on western media, I've honestly seen more Bollywood films that feature India than American or English. Gunga Din and Temple of Doom are the only 2 that come to mind.

 

[Liam TTT]

What I disagree with is that this must be rectified immediately, because harm is actively being done. Even if you were talking about reputation, some Maori did cause the Moriori to leave for Chatham, and then other Maori followed them there, enslaved them, and butchered them down to 100-200 people. I know the Musket Wars were a time of great upheaval and all forms of economic and geographical pressure was being applied, but if the Moriori had gotten there first, would the Maori have moved on?

This is untrue. Moriori were not here in Aotearoa and chased to the Chathams. They developed independently during the same period as Māori and for a number of centuries at the very least had no contact with Māori, until after contact with Europeans. According to their own histories and traditions they did not even come here via Aotearoa but direct from islands further north into Polynesia, though there is evidence that at the very least they were speaking the same language as us 500 years ago, it is possible that this was because the language we spoke was also spoken in Rarotonga at the time, or because some Māori left here and either joined them. We simply do not know for sure. The most commonly accepted hypothesis is that its a mixture of both. People settled there from the islands, and then they were later joined by Māori leaving the south island of Aotearoa looking for more fertile lands around 500 years ago then had little to no contact with us until Māori started serving on whaling ships in the 18th and 19th centuries.

But importantly we have to be clear that what happened to them in the 1830s is NOT just the Moriori myth but at a later time. The myth is that they were an entirely different ethnic group that were inferior to Māori and in ownership of Aotearoa before Māori arrived. This is categorically untrue. The myth was potentially informed by actual events as people hypothesized that it happening in one place means it happened in another, but again, it is not true and thoroughly disproven. To imply otherwise is to overwrite the history of two people and implies an entire culture subjugated another.

For some context, my iwi had nothing to do with the Moriori, and our people cover an area similar in size to Belgium, have separate dialects from the west coast iwi that went over there etc. But according to the myth we only got that area through subjugating and exterminating another people.

But, you know, you didn’t call out Dr Shirley alone. The calls aren’t to boycott Dr Shirley. TDM is the one that is supposed to respond.

Because ultimately it is TDM that published it. Their money paid for it, they are the ones responsible for it at the end of the day. It is very likely that once the manuscript was handed over TDM are the ones that own the text and decide what to do with it and its their platforms hosting and selling it, with their brand on it. Unless they have some sort of arrangement that is uncommon they are ultimately the ones that decide what happens with it. So onus is on them at this point.

It seems very unlikely to me that the author or TDM are racist, I believe Mythic Polynesia was a labour of love, and this mis-step was completely accidental. I think, as per our own guidelines here at The Pub, calling them racist requires evidence that hasn't been produced (and likely doesn't exist).

This may be true. But when you consider how much praise, even within this thread, that the mythic series gets for its research and accuracy, it is extremely uncharacteristic for this to have happened. As pointed out by others here, you type Moriori into google and it immediately points you to truths that dispel the myth. So which is it? Is the book well researched or not? given how Aotearoa is one of the more heavily written about and researched parts of Polynesia, it seems strange that they would get so much right about a place like Samoa or Rapanui but get something so basic wrong about us.

But lets give the benefit of the doubt and say the entire thing is a slip and mistake and got through everyone involved without being picked up. Its entirely possible. Im happy to concede and event accept that. But now they know that a book they are actively selling and promoting contains text inspired by lies written by racists and used by racists to justify further racism. They may not have intended to be racist but they have effectively republished racist text and myths. So this is where we must know what their intent is going forward, because if they continue to sell it without change and especially without even acknowledgement then its reasonable to assume that they intend to continue to profit off of this racist material. There comes a point where appealing to ignorance falls flat.

And, again, I want to be clear that they have an opportunity to clarify all of this and do the decidedly non-racist thing of fixing it and taking ownership. But eventually that ship will sail. There eventually becomes a point where inaction is in fact action in the eyes of the public. For me they haven't reached that point yet. For many here they likely never will.

Its kind of like if someone hits you with their car and speeds off, there comes a point where its reasonable to assume they left to avoid accountability. Now imagine they are making money in the process too. Sure they may have panicked and just noped out after a slip in judgement, but they still conducted a hit and run ya know?

All of that said I am not here trying to convince you all that TDM are racist. You are welcome to your views on that front. I'm not even calling TDM racist right now, but their content is certainly teetering on it in my view and if left as is I have to assume they are ok with this. I think that's reasonable.

 

[Leon ap Hywel]

It does. Thank you.

I am largely of the position that I wish this would have been addressed privately months ago. I think the position of “it’s not my job to reach out to them” in all cases is not good for the mana, as I understand it, of anyone. It means no one takes action and thus we get situations where everyone stares each other down and points fingers. A very similar statement was made by TDM back in March (“they are free to reach out to us”) and it doesn’t sit well with me either.

I think everyone would be happier with a more accurate book, mythic or not. It’s not going to overly impact me - I don’t based my view of people on gaming books, I don’t generally run historical games, I ask my folks about sensitive topics and just stay out of them (religion is the big one for my table, and I’m debating keeping out a very clear swindler who is religiously bent). But folks like that, for whatever reason.

I think at this point I’m just mad that folks won’t calm down and take a look, relax, read the whole thing, figure out how any mistakes might have been made, and deal with that. Rather, they decide ALL of TDMs future products are now off limits, how all of their previous ones are as well, and how associated communities are now racist by association just because they liked many other publications without a whiff of erroneous content of that nature. So much damage was done, so many bytes were spilled, and I don’t think it has promised any change at all.

this thread, and the other with the critique of your posts, and probably about the best that will come of it.

I think I’m on same page as you Raleel, the shitstorm could easily have been avoided with a tiny amount of effort (a comment on Twitter doesn’t count), Loz and Pete are nice guys. I was also disappointed by some elements in the book once they were pointed out (I wanted as an authentic a representation as could ‘reasonably’ be expected) but the opportunistic villagers with pitchforks and torches just piss me off so much that got lost in the noise.

it’s not like I don’t get wanting to preserve your cultural identity and heritage.

 

[Leon ap Hywel]

And thus I go look for a definition, and lo and behold, there isn’t an agreed upon one. Ministry of justice of New Zealand even says that.



ms marvel, the tv show, talks about this fairly extensively. I actually knew nothing about it at all.

You won’t find it taught much anywhere west of India/Pakistan, the culprits like to pretend their ‘occupation‘ of India was of great benefit and partition was simply a cherry on the top of a cake (problem) they baked.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I don't think racism is that hard to define: it's making a judgement about an individual based on preconceived notions about their race. People trying to redefine it in recent years are doing so through an ideological lens that views the world in terms of power structures, with the primary motivation being to create "acceptable targets". But this doesn't erase the original definition and ultimately is attempting to sidestep the reason that racism is wrong. To put it another way, the existence of Institutional Racism neither supplants nor creates an excuse for (non-institutional) Racism.

The particular definition you're talking about is an odd one, because it starts as an internal academic definition meant to stimulate discussion (not to replace other definitions). It then hit the Internet where it was bastardised into an exclusive definition, which quickly lead to some really dodgy shit by its advocates. I'm not sure whether "Irish Travellers aren't the target of racism" or "The Holocaust was not caused by racism" was its most ignoble moment.

That said, I prefer those definitions that break "racism" down as I don't think you can entirely reduce it to individuals. My preferred approach is the Institute of Race Relations who differentiate between "racism" (belief in racial superiority and/or abuse and discrimination based on race), institutitional racism (racism caused by the policies and procedures of an organisation) and state racism (racism enshrined in laws).

A fair bit more complex than just defining it as "individual prejudice" but I think the topic needs it.

I agree with Kruegar that racism is intentional, in that, without any other evidence, the worst that can be said about Dr. Shirley or TDM is that they produced a work that apparently contains racist stereotypes. The leap from that to calling them racist implies knowledge no one here possesses: namely that they deliberately included racist stereotypes, not through a fault in research, rather because they believe something about those races. Misinformation about historical events isn't racist, regardless of how that misinformation applies to current racial tensions. The source of that misinformation, however, could be racist.

It seems very unlikely to me that the author or TDM are racist, I believe Mythic Polynesia was a labour of love, and this mis-step was completely accidental. I think, as per our own guidelines here at The Pub, calling them racist requires evidence that hasn't been produced (and likely doesn't exist).

That's a distinction without difference for me. "Produced a work with racist outcomes" is the charge, I don't think anyone has accused Shirely or TDM of individually being prejudiced. (In this discussion anyway). I'm not sure that repeating racist stereotypes without due care is a lesser accusation.

 

[Fenris-77]

I think the phrase malice aforethought (or a lack thereof) has some juice here in terms of how one might decide to frame the responsibility of Mr. Shirley or TDM. Not that idea of due care doesn't have a place, but I do think it's a significantly different kettle of fish.

 

[Fenris-77]

I did notice just now that Mythic Polynesia is currently neither available nor even mentioned on the Design Mechanism website. It is still available on DTRPG, but that might be for other reasons (legal?), I'm not sure. Someone who knows more about the inner workings of DTRPG might be able to expand.

 

[Agemegos]

I think the phrase malice aforethought (or a lack thereof) has some juice here in terms of how one might decide to frame the responsibility of Mr. Shirley or TDM. Not that idea of due care doesn't have a place, but I do think it's a significantly different kettle of fish.

Please look up what “malice aforethought” means.

 

[Fenris-77]

Please look up what “malice aforethought” means.

It means premeditation, which I was using to index the ongoing notion of intent.

Edit: broadly speaking anyway. If you want to be a pedant about it more specifically referring to murder that's up to you.

 

[Agemegos]

It means premeditation, which I was using to index the ongoing notion of intent.

It means “intent to kill or to cause serious bodily harm, or reckless indifference to the value of human life”.

 

[Fenris-77]

It means “intent to kill or to cause serious bodily harm, or reckless indifference to the value of human life”.

Sigh. The definition has shifted over time and does have broader meaning, mostly stemming from pop culture usage. Again, you shout about it if you like, I'm quite sure my point was adequately coveyed.

Edit again, because Im grumpy. Malice aforethought is, broadly speaking, what separates murder fron other sorts of killings, beginning with medieval English common law. It speaks to the importance of intent which alters the severity of the offense without actually changing the act itself. If you dont see how that example is suitable for the current discussion I can't help you.

 

[TristramEvans]

The particular definition you're talking about is an odd one, because it starts as an internal academic definition meant to stimulate discussion (not to replace other definitions). It then hit the Internet where it was bastardised into an exclusive definition, which quickly lead to some really dodgy shit by its advocates. I'm not sure whether "Irish Travellers aren't the target of racism" or "The Holocaust was not caused by racism" was its most ignoble moment.

I missed those particular arguments, but I've seen some odd ones.

That said, I prefer those definitions that break "racism" down as I don't think you can entirely reduce it to individuals. My preferred approach is the Institute of Race Relations who differentiate between "racism" (belief in racial superiority and/or abuse and discrimination based on race), institutitional racism (racism caused by the policies and procedures of an organisation) and state racism (racism enshrined in laws).

A fair bit more complex than just defining it as "individual prejudice" but I think the topic needs it.

A person doesn't need to believe in racial superiority to be racist though. Even ostensibly *positive" stereotypes (all Asians are good at math, all black men are well endowed) are still racism. I think it still ultimately comes down to defining individuals based on applying attributes to all members of a group, insofar as I think that is ultimately where the issue lies. I'd say "white (or insert race of your choice) supremacy" and discrimination are both issues that are included in that but not defining - as in you can have racism without them, but you can't have them without racism.

That's a distinction without difference for me. "Produced a work with racist outcomes" is the charge, I don't think anyone has accused Shirely or TDM of individually being prejudiced. (In this discussion anyway). I'm not sure that repeating racist stereotypes without due care is a lesser accusation.

Intention matters to me. As it stands now. unless some other information about the author is forthcoming, I see a big difference between this situation and, say, the leaked Star Frontier documents by NuTSR. Namely in that this is a situation that TDM can put right.

 

[TristramEvans]

I did notice just now that Mythic Polynesia is currently neither available nor even mentioned on the Design Mechanism website. It is still available on DTRPG, but that might be for other reasons (legal?), I'm not sure. Someone who knows more about the inner workings of DTRPG might be able to expand.

I still see it for sale in their website store: https://the-design-mechanism.mybigcommerce.com/

 

[Fenris-77]

I still see it for sale in their website store: https://the-design-mechanism.mybigcommerce.com/

Huh. Interesting, Inmust have missed it. No release info or news though.

 

[TristramEvans]

Huh. Interesting, Inmust have missed it. No release info or news though.

Yeah, it's not included on their Mythic Earth page.

It does lead me to a thought though: I was listening to the Mythras Matters podcast recommended by Raleel earlier in the thread, the episode that goes through the submission process and what happens when TDM hires a writer for a project, and they mention that after the pitch (and some sample writings) the first thing they do is to sign a contract with the writer. I wonder if them selling MP is part of that contract, as in, they can't simply take it down. I have no idea, of course, and maybe that's me stretching the assumption of good faith beyond reasonability, but I suppose I really do want to think the best f all parties involved until proven otherwise.

 

[TristramEvans]

This may be true. But when you consider how much praise, even within this thread, that the mythic series gets for its research and accuracy, it is extremely uncharacteristic for this to have happened. As pointed out by others here, you type Moriori into google and it immediately points you to truths that dispel the myth. So which is it? Is the book well researched or not? given how Aotearoa is one of the more heavily written about and researched parts of Polynesia, it seems strange that they would get so much right about a place like Samoa or Rapanui but get something so basic wrong about us.

I mean, I have the same questions really, which is why I wish the author would share their research process so I could identify what led to what seems, as you put it, an elementary mistake. I have theories, but I'm hesitant to even voice them without looking like I'm bending over backwards trying to excuse them.

But lets give the benefit of the doubt and say the entire thing is a slip and mistake and got through everyone involved without being picked up. Its entirely possible. Im happy to concede and event accept that. But now they know that a book they are actively selling and promoting contains text inspired by lies written by racists and used by racists to justify further racism. They may not have intended to be racist but they have effectively republished racist text and myths. So this is where we must know what their intent is going forward, because if they continue to sell it without change and especially without even acknowledgement then its reasonable to assume that they intend to continue to profit off of this racist material. There comes a point where appealing to ignorance falls flat.

And, again, I want to be clear that they have an opportunity to clarify all of this and do the decidedly non-racist thing of fixing it and taking ownership. But eventually that ship will sail. There eventually becomes a point where inaction is in fact action in the eyes of the public. For me they haven't reached that point yet. For many here they likely never will.

I dunno, I can't speak for anyone else here at The Pub. I'm trying to be patient, I understand that TDM is in a precarious situation - if their response is badly recieved, it could easily add fuel to the fire. And with the minefield that social media is these days, that could easily lead to consequences far out of proportion to the situation. Not to mention, they have to be acutely aware that their statements are going to be picked apart with a finetooth comb, and probably not by a majority acting in good faith. So, as well as extending the benefit of the doubt, I'm trying to be patient. At the same time, you are correct in that there will come a point of no return. I, honestly, don't know what that point is for myself. When I tried to define it in my head, the closest I could come to setting a concrete line in the sand is before they release another book in the Mythic Earth series. At that point I could safely assume that the intention is to ignore the criticisms and sweep it under the rug. But that also could be a year or two away, which is too long. I just can't give a specific length for myself. All I can do is repeat what I said earlier...the silence has been deafening.

 

[Isator Levi]

See, the thing is, by definition, racism requires intent.

When a banker denies a small business loan to an African-American person on the basis that their community is regarded by the number crunching as a poor basis for an investment, it may be that nobody in the decision making is motivated by a personal bias or bigotry. Yet an act of racism has occurred.

It means you committed an error and unwittingly stumbled onto a current cultural and legal landmine.

But how people react to that error can be significant, and there are things to consider if their highest priority seems to be in making sure nobody thinks any less of them.

Started with India but then added the bit about an American teenagers grandparents, so thought he was shifting to North America as a perhaps more accessible example since a large number of us here are in the US. Presumably there are many more teens in India and Pakistan that remember that partition, so the American part was a bit of a non-sequitur for me.

Well, are there not tens of millions of Americans who have grandparents and other relatives who are resident in other countries around the world? The point was how such a thing is not only not very far removed in history, but that the younger people who receive the legacy of it are not just confined to the area in which it occurred.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I dunno, I can't speak for anyone else here at The Pub. I'm trying to be patient, I understand that TDM is in a precarious situation - if their response is badly recieved, it could easily add fuel to the fire. And with the minefield that social media is these days, that could easily lead to consequences far out of proportion to the situation. Not to mention, they have to be acutely aware that their statements are going to be picked apart with a finetooth comb, and probably not by a majority acting in good faith. So, as well as extending the benefit of the doubt, I'm trying to be patient. At the same time, you are correct in that there will come a point of no return. I, honestly, don't know what that point is for myself. When I tried to define it in my head, the closest I could come to setting a concrete line in the sand is before they release another book in the Mythic Earth series. At that point I could safely assume that the intention is to ignore the criticisms and sweep it under the rug. But that also could be a year or two away, which is too long. I just can't give a specific length for myself. All I can do is repeat what I said earlier...the silence has been deafening.

Honestly, if nothing is released in January I don't think I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt on this. Two months is more than enough time to do a statement and if they haven't by then it's fair to assume they are actively choosing not to.

 

[TristramEvans]

When a banker denies a small business loan to an African-American person on the basis that their community is regarded by the number crunching as a poor basis for an investment, it may be that nobody in the decision making is motivated by a personal bias or bigotry. Yet an act of racism has occurred.

That is the difference between institutional racism and racism. But I think even that can be broken down to, ultimately, intention. Let's say a white person from that same community applies for the loan - they are still subject to the same discrimination, which is based on the demographics of a community. That the community is going to be overwhelmingly members of a minority, however, goes back to how that community formed in the first place. And that leads us all the way back to the deliberate ostracization of minorities during the Jim Crow era. Which in turn leads us back to "freed slaves" being suddenly displaced in a society that is still hostile to them but maintaining the illusion of slavery being over with excuses like "separate but equal (but not really equal)". Which in the end always leads back to intentional racism. As a society we are dealing with the longterm effects of a system stacked against a demographic, even if the intention was at some point removed from the equation at the level of personal interactions.

 

[Fenris-77]

Honestly, if nothing is released in January I don't think I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt on this. Two months is more than enough time to do a statement and if they haven't by then it's fair to assume they are actively choosing not to.

I'd want to know what TDM's contract with Mr. Shirley looks like before going even that far. If, just to pluck an example from the ether, it would have to be he who makes the changes and he's unwilling (for whatever reason) it could be far more complicated than simply waiting for things to blow over.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I'd want to know what TDM's contract with Mr. Shirley looks like before going even that far. If, just to pluck an example from the ether, it would have to be he who makes the changes and he's unwilling (for whatever reason) it could be far more complicated than simply waiting for things to blow over.

"We cannot change or take down the product for contractual reasons" would be enough I think. If they can't even do that because of NDAs, they need a better lawyer.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

It does lead me to a thought though: I was listening to the Mythras Matters podcast recommended by Raleel earlier in the thread, the episode that goes through the submission process and what happens when TDM hires a writer for a project, and they mention that after the pitch (and some sample writings) the first thing they do is to sign a contract with the writer. I wonder if them selling MP is part of that contract, as in, they can't simply take it down. I have no idea, of course, and maybe that's me stretching the assumption of good faith beyond reasonability, but I suppose I really do want to think the best f all parties involved until proven otherwise.

Again, I don't know anything about Polynesian history, nor do I know the Mythras line, so I can't weigh in terms of the content people have been discussing and debating, but from my small vantage point in the industry, I think one possible explanation is profit margins here are so tight, budgets are so tight, it is likely they have to recoup on this book or end up blowing a big hole in their company (I don't know their situation in terms of revenue and finances, but just generally speaking a lot of companies are surviving book to book or at least counting on each book's revenue). Every company is different, but pulling a book can be pretty catastrophic for the company as a whole, and revising the book could also end up being expensive and even having a similar effect to pulling it (depending on who needs to be paid to make the changes). The productions and pre-production costs of books can be expensive. And there may be distribution issues they have to consider as well.

They also could be planning a decision that will take time and we haven't heard about yet. If they are making changes to it, books take time to work on, and things need to be planned in advance, so I would imagine if they are doing that, they might not want to make any statements until they know all the details.

Another thing to consider is they are getting different information than we are in terms of the response (they are probably aware of threads like this and the twitter discussions, but often times online reactions and the sales numbers and what you hear from customers paint a different picture than what you see online). I think the difference here would surprise a lot of people (this is something I've seen something of myself, but heard from a lot of other publishers).

 

[TristramEvans]

Honestly, if nothing is released in January I don't think I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt on this. Two months is more than enough time to do a statement and if they haven't by then it's fair to assume they are actively choosing not to.

I'm not going to say that's not fair, but I also (again perhaps in my excessive desire to give the benefit of the doubt) have no idea what's going on behind the scenes - what discussions are taking place, how extensively (if at all) they are going back over the manuscript to compare the research done to the critiques that have been pointed out, and what their ultimate plan of action is.

I know what I personally want to happen. At this point I can only hope that it aligns with how this ends up.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I'm not going to say that's not fair, but I also (again perhaps in my excessive desire to give the benefit of the doubt) have no idea what's going on behind the scenes - what discussions are taking place, how extensively (if at all) they are going back over the manuscript to compare the research done to the critiques that have been pointed out, and what their ultimate plan of action is.

I know what I personally want to happen. At this point I can only hope that it aligns with how this ends up.

Yeah, my "they have about a month" is for a statement of what's going on backstage or a timescale, not necessarily a product with revisions. Not even necessarily in great detail, just not radio silence.

 

[TristramEvans]

They also could be planning a decision that will take time and we haven't heard about yet. If they are making changes to it, books take time to work on, and things need to be planned in advance, so I would imagine if they are doing that, they might not want to make any statements until they know all the details.

Yeah, that kinda aligns with my hypothesis in the last post.

Another thing to consider is they are getting different information than we are in terms of the response (they are probably aware of threads like this and the twitter discussions, but often times online reactions and the sales numbers and what you hear from customers paint a different picture than what you see online). I think the difference here would surprise a lot of people (this is something I've seen something of myself, but heard from a lot of other publishers).

No doubt. And to be totally honest, I think Liam shot himself in the foot with some of his statements, insofar as, if I was an author, the minute someone implied physical violence, even if it was a statement made in a moment of anger and retracted later, that is the moment that I would dismiss anything they had to say on the matter.

 

[Fenris-77]

No doubt. And to be totally honest, I think Liam shot himself in the foot with some of his statements, insofar as, if I was an author, the minute someone implied physical violence, even if it was a statement made in a moment of anger and retracted later, that is the moment that I would dismiss anything they had to say on the matter.

That's certainly what happened here, and for me specifically. There wasn't any explication of that post either, was there?

 

[TristramEvans]

That's certainly what happened here, and for me specifically. There wasn't any explication of that post either, was there?

I dunno. He explained it up thread here, but I haven't been back to Twitter to see how the thread progressed r what follow up statements were made there - the formatting of that site honestly gives me headaches.

 

[Fenris-77]

I dunno. He explained it up thread here, but I haven't been back to Twitter to see how the thread progressed r what follow up statements were made there - the formatting of that site honestly gives me headaches.

His upthread explanation just says he thought about taking it down but decided to leave it up as he had said it. No mention of clarification though, and like you I'm not tempted to go digging elsewhere to find out.

 

[Raleel]

I am quite happy that Liam TTT has engaged with us here, and at length, and provided some perspective. I don’t necessarily agree with everything, but i agree with some and I think the effort is worthwhile. I think it says a lot about choosing to communicate and persevering through the potential slings and arrows. I think every one of us wants the same thing - a product they can be proud to own and clear understanding around it without a lot of hyperbolic screaming at each other.

I think it is pretty damn funny that folks accuse the pub of all kinds of ridiculousness, but you can’t have this conversation on other forums. I have the ban to prove it

 

[chuckdee]

Liam TTT really cool of you to come here and share your thoughts and experiences with us. Welcome, and thanks.

I'll echo this, and hope you stick around even after this thread. I appreciate your insights.

 

[chuckdee]

And thus I go look for a definition, and lo and behold, there isn’t an agreed upon one. Ministry of justice of New Zealand even says that.

Yeah, this is a difficult thing to parse in these times. To my knowledge, being bigoted requires intent where racism can be casual. But in this climate, things have changed in the minds of some and not in the minds of others leading to fraught communication.

ms marvel, the tv show, talks about this fairly extensively. I actually knew nothing about it at all.

Yes, I thought that part was really well done. I knew about partition before, but never realized how bad it was at the time until then. Working with people in Pakastan and India there are some really harsh feelings about it, even now.

 

[ffilz]

Yeah, my "they have about a month" is for a statement of what's going on backstage or a timescale, not necessarily a product with revisions. Not even necessarily in great detail, just not radio silence.

What I don’t understand is why they haven’t made a statement that they are investigating the situation or even just “we hear you.” That doesn’t imply any change will be made.

 

[Raleel]

What I don’t understand is why they haven’t made a statement that they are investigating the situation or even just “we hear you.” That doesn’t imply any change will be made.

They said they we’re internally discussing it like… seventh post or something on here in the original mythic Polynesia thread.

 

[ffilz]

They said they we’re internally discussing it like… seventh post or something on here in the original mythic Polynesia thread.

Oh ok. I guess that got missed in all the hullabaloo…

 

[TristramEvans]

What I don’t understand is why they haven’t made a statement that they are investigating the situation or even just “we hear you.” That doesn’t imply any change will be made.

They have, on page one of this very thread (I ported those posts over from the last thread)