Mod+ Mythic Polynesia

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This is one) why I was interested in the book - because the Mythras line has, heretofore set a high standard of scholarship, and two) why I would take at face value the claims of someone who is a part of and deeply knowledgeable regarding the culture and history stating that the book reinforces certain very harmful racial stereotypes and is riddled with inaccuracies.
Yeah, that's pretty much where I am. And in answer to an earlier question, I do actually expect a higher level of historical accuracy from Mythras because it's one of its general selling points. I expect the same kind of level of "history with a few tweaks" in the Maelstrom line for similar reasons and would hold Osprey's historical wargames to an even higher standard. I wouldn't hold D&D to that level because D&D has never been a historical game, it's a pulp fantasy game with a few fantasy trappings.
Now, I don't agree with all of his criticisms because many come from an ideological framework that I do not share, and I don't need to know anything about any one particular culture to have a different perspective in general on concepts like "cultural appropriation". Moreover, I don't agree with the behaviour or condemnations of other folks who clearly have their own agendas. And based just on what I've actually seen myself, I'm sure TDM has had to deal with more than it's fair share of exaggerated, inappropriate, and utterly unproductive hatemongering and threats from badfaith actors looking for any excuse to get off on their latest hit of self-righteousness, because that's sadly par for the course these days.

But that doesn't invalidate the legitimate critiques, even if it increases the signal to noise ratio to the point that fair points can get drowned out.
What's much more critical for me than the "cultural appropriation" argument is the charge that the book uses a narrow range of largely outdated academic sources and gets things wrong because of that. Do I know for certain that's correct? No, I don't. But I observe that I haven't seen one of the book's would be defenders actually try and refute that argument. When they do, I'll listen. But until then I have a list of what look to me like detailed and specific criticisms compared to those who tell me the book is fine because essentially "trust me, bro". I'm always going to lean to believing the former over the latter in areas outside my own expertise.
 
And in this day and age there really isn't a good excuse for reproducing or spreading racial or cultural stereotypes associated with historical oppression or bigotry.

If you put it like that... Then, absolutely. In 'real-world' terms...

But games are not really like that, for me at least. To give a quick example, when I run VtM again, you can bet your ass I'm having all those juicy stereotypes. That goes for any game I'm playing - depending on the era.
 
So stuff that's been fairly common among fantasy RPGs for quite a while? Though maybe less so with certain lines... Mythras, GURPS, whatever other lines with a rep for good research.
Like, maybe this is below par for TDM... but is it particularly agregious beyond that?
You should read his arguments. it is not a short read, and there are a couple of threads. But it is all he posted about there for a while, so it should be easy to find.

The other thing to note - it is the only one with still living cultures who are disadvantaged. No one talks about the Britons from Mythic Britain, the late medieval Muslims in Mythic Constantinople, or the cultures in Mythic Babylon - those have largely passed out of existence. The Polynesian ones are in the act of regaining their culture.
Of course not... but how much needs to be excused?

Some of this is not the accuracy. in his words (pulled from the Mythras Discord) when asked about if he considered sources from Polynesian authors

I can't say that I ever kept a track of author ethnicity. I like to focus on the 'Mythic' part of the 'Mythic Earth' title, and took much of my inspiration from hero tales and mythology, which were oral histories (albeit recorded by westerners). I tried to focus on emic studies (in contrast to etic ones) because these have the closest relevance to the roleplaying experience; by their very nature such studies are from an insider's viewpoint although not necessarily reported by those actors themselves. Sources which were most useful to me were syncretic works reconstructing the pre-diaspora Polynesian culture, so books such as Kirch (e.g. Hawaiki'i: Ancestral Polynesia) and Oliver (e.g. Polynesia in Early Historic Times) were used more than say Whatahoro ("The Lore of the Whare-Wananga") and Kane (e.g. "Ancient Hawai'i"); who focussed on writing about their own cultures. That's not to say that the latter group of sources were useless, but they are less prominent in the final product; which is not about only Aotearoa or Hawai'i.
https://discord.com/channels/469341944888164352/965255966952153158/1009053861769654272 if you care for the reference.

this causes a problem because those sources have an innate bias in them that, to my understanding (i'm not an expert), doesn't portray the cultures accurately, and in fact perpetuates myths used by racists to maintain oppression.

Part of it is about the story being told in the words of an outsider who comes from a culture that has traditionally oppressed them. It is not to say that Mark or TDM would even consider such a thing, but rather a wariness and weariness that comes from repeatedly having their story told by someone else.

A big part of it is the power imbalance that has existed for so long. It sort of perpetuates a more insidious form of racism, as the argument goes. This makes it hard for many in rpgs (lets face it, most of us) as we have always been the power side, culturally speaking.

I'm in the same place... except for being inclined toward skepticism about the degree of 'offense' anyone is claiming, vs. just picking nits.
I think you should go read the whole twitter thread. You might find the book recommended by Liam to be interesting, as it talks about the bias and wariness indigenous cultures feel about scientists and researchers.

full disclosure - I had been spending time learning about racism, because I heard people I respected claiming racism over things that I didn't see as that. There is some real work mentally to see the position. I am no where near there. Though I only came onto it recently, this made some more serious impact on me
 
If you put it like that... Then, absolutely. In 'real-world' terms...

But games are not really like that, for me at least. To give a quick example, when I run VtM again, you can bet your ass I'm having all those juicy stereotypes. That goes for any game I'm playing - depending on the era.
I mean, that one depends on the specifics I think. If I run 1920s gangsters I might well include 1920s bigotry with the consent of the players. But I'm not going to have that bigotry presented as true; I'm not going to put in Jews secretly running the banking system or a big Catholic conspiracy even though those were relatively common beliefs at the time.
 
The other thing to note - it is the only one with still living cultures who are disadvantaged. No one talks about the Britons from Mythic Britain, the late medieval Muslims in Mythic Constantinople, or the cultures in Mythic Babylon - those have largely passed out of existence.
Uh yma o hyd Raleel, despite what the sais would have you think.
 
False stereotypes, inaccurate descriptions of cultural traditions, outdated historical sources, linguistic inaccuracies, conflating the traditions of unrelated cultures.

The book was gone over in depth by a fellow named "Liam" on Twitter, a native Maori who is also an RPG author, IIRC.

The sincere counter point to this is that it it simply isn't possible to have false stereotypes or inaccurate descriptions about cultural traditions that don't exist in the real world. The book is described and clearly presented as Mythic Polynesia and this is confirmed by the cover art and in the introduction, to say nothing of a cursory glance at the paucity of sources. In other words a version of Polynesia that never existed.

It is the same point with regard to Christianity or Paganism in Pendragon not being real world Christianity or Paganism.

A comparison would be something like Call of Cthulhu which presents real world society as is but with a hidden world underneath. There I can see the need for approaching different real world locations and events with particular consideration.

In any case this whole issue is why I decided to hedge my bets and buy two hardback copies. If things are going to get rewritten there will be an inflated market for the original edition down the line.
 
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I mean, that one depends on the specifics I think. If I run 1920s gangsters I might well include 1920s bigotry with the consent of the players. But I'm not going to have that bigotry presented as true; I'm not going to put in Jews secretly running the banking system or a big Catholic conspiracy even though those were relatively common beliefs at the time.

I agree with you... There are some 'heavy' topics that you don't really need to go into for the context of a game (because they are pretty offensive). What I'm trying to say is that, for me, using certain stereotypes or tropes is just part of the game's enjoyment. We all know (or should know) that these don't translate into the real world.

If I was playing an archeologist in the 1930s. :smile: I might take a shiny gold artifact back to a museum and shoot a few natives along the way. In the game's context, you are seen as a hero but in the real world, you are seen as a thieving git. Or if your pirate ship is careened on skull island you are inevitably going to be attacked by native cannibals. Or if you are playing (grimdark) WFRP it's perfectly acceptable to slaughter an Orc settlement because in WFRP ALL orcs are technically evil.

I'm not intentionally trying to be offensive, but as I grew up in the 80's & 90's that's the pop culture I want to immerse myself in. And I don't really feel the need to update it to appease a few Twitter whiners. But that's just me...
 
The sincere counter point to this is that it it simply isn't possible to have false stereotypes or inaccurate descriptions about cultural traditions that don't exist in the real world. The book is described and clearly presented as Mythic Polynesia and this is confirmed by the cover art and in the introduction, to say nothing of a cursory glance at the paucity of sources. In other words a version of Polynesia that never existed.

If we were dealing with a fantasy race based on Polynesian culture (say lizardmen from a tropical island culture) or made-up tribes from an alternate Earth, I'd agree this is a counter. The issue is 1) these are actual tribes of people that still exist today -which I myself, and I assume most of us in the outside world know very little about, and 2) that runs contrary to how the preceding books in the Mythic Earth line are presented, which is closer to "well-done scholarship which blends in the mythology/folklore of these cultures as if it is real".

So, yeah, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the approach you describe, but at the same time, if there was a book about, say, Mythic Isreal, and it stereotyped actual Abrahamic tribes as "greedy, conspiratorial, and looking to steal babies" that would be over the line for me as excusable by just being a fantasy representation.
 
Took a look at Twitter and I think I see what the problem is.

Much like the storied Polynesian navigators of old, TDM is going through uncharted waters with this book. Mistakes are bound to happen. I suspect they themselves will review the book in due time.

That being said, I realize that requests for “tone policing” sits poorly in these debates but Christ. Would a little courtesy and presumption of good will kill anyone?
 
If we were dealing with a fantasy race based on Polynesian culture (say lizardmen from a tropical island culture) or made-up tribes from an alternate Earth, I'd agree this is a counter. The issue is 1) these are actual tribes of people that still exist today -which I myself, and I assume most of us in the outside world know very little about, and 2) that runs contrary to how the preceding books in the Mythic Earth line are presented, which is closer to "well-done scholarship which blends in the mythology/folklore of these cultures as if it is real".

So, yeah, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the approach you describe, but at the same time, if there was a book about, say, Mythic Isreal, and it stereotyped actual Abrahamic tribes as "greedy, conspiratorial, and looking to steal babies" that would be over the line for me as excusable by just being a fantasy representation.
This is the best summation of this issue that I've seen so far.
 
That'd be such an amazing book. Baal cultists, the water serpents in Psalms, the nomadic period, the monarchy,...etc. Several different ways it could be done.
Green Ronin’s Testament d20 RPG comes to mind. I haven’t read it, though.

we, uh, aren't overly concerned about Bronze Age politics...feel free to criticize the Cult of Moloch to your heart's desire
You’d be surprised to discover that there’s quite a bit of Bronze Age tribal prejudice in certain corners of modern politics.
 
That'd be such an amazing book. Baal cultists, the water serpents in Psalms, the nomadic period, the monarchy,...etc. Several different ways it could be done
They’d be mad to attempt it after this.
 
False stereotypes, inaccurate descriptions of cultural traditions, outdated historical sources, linguistic inaccuracies, conflating the traditions of unrelated cultures.

The book was gone over in depth by a fellow named "Liam" on Twitter, a native Maori who is also an RPG author, IIRC.
Yeah, he was working on an American Western game. Apparently he didn’t want to break any irony meters, so he decided not to do it.,
 
I wanted to work on a western game, and had discussed it pretty heavily with someone. Then we got to native Americans and I was like… nah. I’ve lived on or near reservations, have native in my extended family, participated in some ceremonies and the like. I might have a lot of good intentions, but I didn’t have the knowledge to do it justice. Not for publication at least.
 
I wanted to work on a western game, and had discussed it pretty heavily with someone. Then we got to native Americans and I was like… nah. I’ve lived on or near reservations, have native in my extended family, participated in some ceremonies and the like. I might have a lot of good intentions, but I didn’t have the knowledge to do it justice. Not for publication at least.
I see a lot of Sci Fi RPGs in our future.
 
I wanted to work on a western game, and had discussed it pretty heavily with someone. Then we got to native Americans and I was like… nah. I’ve lived on or near reservations, have native in my extended family, participated in some ceremonies and the like. I might have a lot of good intentions, but I didn’t have the knowledge to do it justice. Not for publication at least.
How we came to live here is meant to be excellent, but I have that 3rd hand.
 
1. Liam is who, exactly? What is his expertise other than being a self-claimed Māori?
2. The book is Mythic Polynesia, covering an area with several hundred languages. Assuming any single culture is going to have an academic deep dive is patently ridiculous.
3. Shirley’s research books are considered out of date by academics, and contain “harmful” stereotypes? Again, according to someone besides Liam?

If there’s something outright, provably wrong, that’s one thing. However, any indigenous person living in 2022 isn’t going to be able to be authoritative of his culture in the 1500’s just by the power of having the right genes. Even in native sources, Blackfoot and Crow are likely going to give different accounts of history, as are Pawnee and Lakota.

None of us have read any of these sourced books, or know much if anything about the cultures in question and I doubt anyone besides Séadna Séadna might have some scholarship done on the issue.

Shirley proved himself worth some benefit of the doubt with Mythic Babylon. One single guy on Twitter causes all this hand-wringing? This guy’s not the Voice of the Māori, you all should know better, rather than be racing to see who can get there first with the tar and feathers.
 
1. Liam is who, exactly? What is his expertise other than being a self-claimed Māori?

Self-evident based on his responses.


you all should know better, rather than be racing to see who can get there first with the tar and feathers.

No one here is looking to tar and feather anyone. You're conflating academic criticism with the actions of people completely unassociated with this forum.
 
Shirley proved himself worth some benefit of the doubt with Mythic Babylon.
Shirley was not involved with Mythic Babylon. Shirley wrote Waterlands.

The book is Mythic Polynesia, covering an area with several hundred languages. Assuming any single culture is going to have an academic deep dive is patently ridiculous.
This, in fact, one of the criticisms presented in the Twitter thread I encourage you to read - that the cultures are lumped together with too broad a strokes. I don’t have enough knowledge to talk about the accuracy of that.


One single guy on Twitter causes all this hand-wringing?
Actually a few. Not a huge number by any means.


Shirley’s research books are considered out of date by academics, and contain “harmful” stereotypes? Again, according to someone besides Liam?
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018735038/setting-aside-the-moriori-myth right from the Twitter thread I encourage you to go read to attack his argument. Really, it’s worth the read, it’s not in substantive. It does have some balance in it. He concedes some points, particularly related to how rpg books don’t need to be academic books.

there is also an academic book he mentions in there that talks about how researchers and indigenous folks have some mistrust going on, and how that affects research.
Yeah, probably angling for a Cultural Consultant job on any project concerning the subject.
If he was looking for a consulting job, I imagine the best and most effective time would have been when he pointed out his concerns for cultural appropriation back in like February publicly, and he probably would have gone directly to tdm, with the publicly available email address, and offered his services. If he had done that, and then they turned him down, it would have given far far more weight to his argument, don’t you think?
 
Cuz, you know, certain types of criticism on social media have never launched careers before. (Rolls eyes so hard they blow out the back of my head.)

If you're attempting to justify ad hominem, you'll have to do better than "someone somewhere once did this one thing therefor it's 'reasonable' to assume anyone I don't like of intending to do that thing". That is, essentially, the definition of prejudice.
 
This seems to point to something like 'Mythic India' being a no-go.
I've attempted a bit of research into Ancient Indian history and it's hard to find any sources that aren't disputed by some factional 'expert' or another... lots of modern politics and spirituality with a vested interest in dominating the historical narrative.
Whatever you do you're going to step on someone's feelings... as well having glaring stares at any author who might belong to a previously colonial power.

Or should any future attempt move farther from the facts... go the L5R route and make it an overtly fantastical buffet? (I don't actively follow L5R but I haven't noticed much friction about it being racist/insensitive).
 
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Shirley was not involved with Mythic Babylon. Shirley wrote Waterlands.
Ok, so fuck him on the historical benefit of the doubt, but Waterlands was good. :devil:
This, in fact, one of the criticisms presented in the Twitter thread I encourage you to read - that the cultures are lumped together with too broad a strokes. I don’t have enough knowledge to talk about the accuracy of that.
Eh, it’s no different from any other gaming book about any other culture in history. Even a relatively shallow dive on Vikings is going to come up with at least 8 cultures with differences. Has that ever stopped a Viking, Celtic, etc book?
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018735038/setting-aside-the-moriori-myth right from the Twitter thread I encourage you to go read to attack his argument. Really, it’s worth the read, it’s not in substantive. It does have some balance in it. He concedes some points, particularly related to how rpg books don’t need to be academic books.
The Myth is the Maori wiped out the Moriori, the truth is that they enslaved them and wiped out 90% and reduced them to a population of 200, and then the tribes mixed. I honestly don’t know which version casts the Māori in a worse light, but good to know a complete genocide didn’t happen.
there is also an academic book he mentions in there that talks about how researchers and indigenous folks have some mistrust going on, and how that affects research.
Sure, groups not wanting to speak to outsiders or reveal too much has impeded the work of all Social Sciences since before the beginning of Social Sciences. Again, doesn’t stop academic books being written, not to mention game books.
If he was looking for a consulting job, I imagine the best and most effective time would have been when he pointed out his concerns for cultural appropriation back in like February publicly, and he probably would have gone directly to tdm, with the publicly available email address, and offered his services. If he had done that, and then they turned him down, it would have given far far more weight to his argument, don’t you think?
No, because then he‘d be easily dismissed as disgruntled non-employee and his complaints a vengeance campaign. Bitching about RPGs being some form of (blank) is good business. It pushes the likes, etc.
 
Standing by a pulled out of your ass assumption with no evidence whatsoever because it "might be true" isn't a hill I suggest dying on.

Standing by my opinion (right or wrong) is a fine way to die.

And incidentally, you can't 'prove' that Liam isn't angling for a cultural consultant role of some kind (in the future).
 
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