Nu-TSR suing WotC: Schadenfreude is back on the menu, boys!

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Endless Flight said:
His legal council should have advised him against this lawsuit. The countersuit should be coming in any minute now the way he has escalated this.
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To be fair, for all we know they did. Sometimes a client demands ridiculous things which fly in the face of the advice you give them. All you can do then is either a) do them, keeping costs down to the extent their instructions make that possible, to the extent that you can within the rules of professional conduct, or b) tell your client you can no longer represent them and suggest other representation (usually the default if the client directly tells you to do something which the rules of professional conduct outright forbid, or if the client fails to pay you).
 
TristramEvans said:
I didn't realize they had an Indigogo campaign, which I just stumbled upon accidentally

It is...frankly, hilarious, starting with badly photoshopped fake legal papers (they couldn't have at least used the same font?)

View attachment 39184


That summary is also just pure gold. "We're suing them because we love art and freedom! WoTC opposes us - that obviously means they oppose art and freedom!"

I can't not read that in a thick redneck accent
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As a redneck, I am offended.
 
A commercial litigator weights in with his analysis. My summary really can't do this justice, so just start with "they've filed this in a court without the correct jurisdiction" and then read the rest -

 
So this is a mess, WHO is this new TSR? I see a Gygax denouncing it, so it's not that estate?
 
It is sad that obvious grifting like this has basically become a normal and almost acceptable means to raise money.

I'm just waiting on the hordes of zombies and mutants at least they are honest about their intent.

Séadna said:
I'm suing the Pub for making me buy RPGs I wouldn't have known about.
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Oooooh, I smell class action opportunities here. We are all victims and perpetrators here. :hehe:
 
Tommy Brownell said:
I can assure you that my speaking voice is very rednecked, whether I like it or not.
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But probably not as much as what most people think of as a Redneck accent, I'm willing to wager. Just because very few people speak in *that* exaggerated an accent.
 
Tulpa Girl said:
But probably not as much as what most people think of as a Redneck accent, I'm willing to wager. Just because very few people speak in *that* exaggerated an accent.
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Despite where I grew up, I once had someone ask me if I was Canadian because I had such a non-accent.

(Though if I get riled up, I definitely sound more Southern. Also, my word choice sometimes will indicate where I'm from even if I don't have an accent (like riled up :tongue:)
 
Warthur said:
To my eyes it looks pretty phoned-in. (Fairly sure that paragraph 3 should open with "Plaintiff is...", for instance, and the actual legal argument is very thin.)
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Actually, it isn't. A basic tenet of trademark law is that a company has to display and defend them; you can't just buy trademarks/servicemarks, stuff them in a drawer for decades, and expect to be able to keep exclusive use. This can be a token effort: it's pretty common for a conglomerate that buys out a regional chain of something to keep one outlet in operation under its original name, or put a handful of labeled goods up on a website. That's enough to satisfy the law. There's also a timeframe involved, but I forget what that is at the federal level.

So ... it's nominally up to WotC to demonstrate that they have sold items labeled "TSR" and/or with those logos within the timeframe. If they have, done deal. If they haven't, well ... see, another factor is simply money. I'd wager that the espresso budget in Hasbro's corporate counsel's office is more than every dollar LaNasa can beg, borrow or steal. The ability of a billion dollar corporation to wait out poor dumb mooks is infinite.
 
Ravenswing said:
Actually, it isn't. A basic tenet of trademark law is that a company has to display and defend them; you can't just buy trademarks/servicemarks, stuff them in a drawer for decades, and expect to be able to keep exclusive use. This can be a token effort: it's pretty common for a conglomerate that buys out a regional chain of something to keep one outlet in operation under its original name, or put a handful of labeled goods up on a website. That's enough to satisfy the law. There's also a timeframe involved, but I forget what that is at the federal level.

So ... it's nominally up to WotC to demonstrate that they have sold items labeled "TSR" and/or with those logos within the timeframe. If they have, done deal. If they haven't, well ... see, another factor is simply money. I'd wager that the espresso budget in Hasbro's corporate counsel's office is more than every dollar LaNasa can beg, borrow or steal. The ability of a billion dollar corporation to wait out poor dumb mooks is infinite.
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WotC is selling numerous old TSR reprints with the various old logos and all at this very moment. Including Star Frontiers. Not too long ago, WotC cracked down on Star Frontiers fan sites. They have a pretty decent case for active use and defense of the trademarks.
 
Gringnr said:
WotC is selling numerous old TSR reprints with the various old logos and all at this very moment. Including Star Frontiers. Not too long ago, WotC cracked down on Star Frontiers fan sites. They have a pretty decent case for active use and defense of the trademarks.
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Like I said previously: if nuTSR had started their activities in that dark patch when WotC weren't selling reprints and were largely ignoring Star Frontiers, they might have the ghost of an argument. As it is, even if a judge ruled that WotC's interruption of use was long-standing enough to dissipate the goodwill involved in the mark, WotC's lawyers could still argue that they re-asserted the mark's reputation and connection to them through the PDF/POD sales and through those defensive actions.

Also, check the twitter thread linked upthread - there's plenty other issues, including failing to provide any substantive arguments with respect to three of the marks under dispute. That's "thin" by any definition.
 
This is hilarious. (From the Indiegogo) My Bolds.

TSR will also Fight to Have the WOTC Legacy Disclaimer Removed

TSR is suing WOTC for Trademark Declaratory Judgement of Ownership . TSR will also pursue in the near future having WOTC remove the legacy content disclaimer placed on TSR based Dungeons & Dragons and other products, and retractions of any other libel and slander which alleges that racism and other heinous beliefs are incorporated into those products.

This disclaimer attempts to make a statement of fact argument, and therefore paints all of the writers, editors, artists and consumers of those products as supporting those alleged prejudices, stereotypes and bigotry, wrongfully claimed to be part of those products. This statement by Wizards of the Coast opens the possibility for the producers and players of these "Legacy Products" to face ridicule, and face the labeling as "bigots", "racists", "misogynists", and worse Cyber & Physical Attacks!

Wizards of the Coast legacy content disclaimer.

"We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end".
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I mean, even assuming there was some kind of legal grounds to object to a disclaimer, I'd imagine you'd get it thrown out of court by any judge who has enough grasp of English grammar to understand what a modal of possibility is.
 
I wonder if he/they are just fishing to be paid off to go away. Lawyers get expensive and sometimes big companies find it cheaper to make a quick settlement than to go to court. It's still ridiculous just not as ridiculous as thinking they can actually win this thing would be.
 
TJS said:
This is hilarious. (From the Indiegogo) My Bolds.


I mean, even assuming there was some kind of legal grounds to object to a disclaimer, I'd imagine you'd get it thrown out of court by any judge who has enough grasp of English grammar to understand what a modal of possibility is.
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Yeah, but it's of a piece with the way society thinks right now: failure to explicitly condemn = condoning, correlation IS causation, and all of that. IMHO, it seems like a reasonable enough disclaimer.

LaIdiot's lawyer should educate his client about the difference between libel and slander, by the bye. Although probably a better use for those legal fees would be to hand it to LaIdiot's doctor, who could up his dosage some.
 
David Johansen said:
I wonder if he/they are just fishing to be paid off to go away. Lawyers get expensive and sometimes big companies find it cheaper to make a quick settlement than to go to court. It's still ridiculous just not as ridiculous as thinking they can actually win this thing would be.
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The legal Twitter thread posted earlier says that this type of suit would force TSR to pay Hasbro's legal fees if TSR loses. I legit think it"s a scam to collect money in the hopes of the very likely dismissal of the suit altogether. Then LooNasa keeps the cash "for the museum".
 
David Johansen said:
I wonder if he/they are just fishing to be paid off to go away. Lawyers get expensive and sometimes big companies find it cheaper to make a quick settlement than to go to court. It's still ridiculous just not as ridiculous as thinking they can actually win this thing would be.
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That would align with the "flexible funding" on his indiegogo - meaning, if he doesn't reach his goal, he gets to keep whatever was pledged with no obligation...
 
Gringnr said:
The legal Twitter thread posted earlier says that this type of suit would force TSR to pay Hasbro's legal fees if TSR loses. I legit think it"s a scam to collect money in the hopes of the very likely dismissal of the suit altogether. Then LooNasa keeps the cash "for the museum".
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Yep, I'm guessing that is the end game. Raise $50,000 spend $25,000 and go, well I tried and then the boss move, ask fans for more money to help offset the expenses from the lawsuit...
 
Ravenswing said:
Yeah, but it's of a piece with the way society thinks right now: failure to explicitly condemn = condoning, correlation IS causation, and all of that. IMHO, it seems like a reasonable enough disclaimer.

LaIdiot's lawyer should educate his client about the difference between libel and slander, by the bye. Although probably a better use for those legal fees would be to hand it to LaIdiot's doctor, who could up his dosage some.
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The actual filing doesn't mention the libel claim at all. It looks likely that's a marketing tactic to rile up the rubes. And so far there's 51 people stupid enough, so not a high number but enough to market to in the future.
 
Ravenswing said:
Yeah, but it's of a piece with the way society thinks right now: failure to explicitly condemn = condoning, correlation IS causation, and all of that. IMHO, it seems like a reasonable enough disclaimer.

LaIdiot's lawyer should educate his client about the difference between libel and slander, by the bye. Although probably a better use for those legal fees would be to hand it to LaIdiot's doctor, who could up his dosage some.
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I wouldn't necessarily say that's the way that "society" itself thinks right now, but rather a specific group of people that proports to speak for the rest of us, which is the same group of people pushing these claims. And that trying to appease those people with statements like these tacitly reaffirms those beliefs as true despite them being contentious, while tacitly dismissing those who don't conform with them. However there is also an aspect of human psychology to this that tends to think in binary terms and transcends all of this, manifesting itself at different periods in a similar fashion depending on the topic and how polarized people are on any given subject at any point in time at a small or large scale.

Black Leaf said:
The actual filing doesn't mention the libel claim at all. It looks likely that's a marketing tactic to rile up the rubes. And so far there's 51 people stupid enough, so not a high number but enough to market to in the future.
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Yeah, I didn't notice before, but they even say it in the Indiegogo...

TSR will also pursue in the near future having WOTC remove the legacy content disclaimer placed on TSR based Dungeons & Dragons and other products...
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They're not even saying that they're pursuing this, but promising that they intend to do so, at some hypothetical point in the "future". It's bait.
 
WotC Lawyer 1: Do you guys hear that?

WotC Lawyer 2: No, sorry bro, I can't hear anything over the sound of my own high-poweredness.

WotC Lawyer 1: Oh yeah, right. I really thought I heard something though. A buzzing maybe?

WotC Laywer 3: Na, I don't hear anything either bro, but I was busy shining my law degree from Harvard. Look at how shiny it is!

WotC Lawyer 1: So shiny! No, not a buzzing .. hmm ... I swear it maybe sounds a lot desperate bullshit wrapped in bad grammar.

WotC Lawyer 2: Well, I still don't hear anything but I'll go get the Grognard spray just in case. Those little fuckers are annoying, but they'll be dead at the push of a button..
 
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More from Tenkar. https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2021/12/why-is-tsr3-filing-suit-over-trademarks.html

The trademarks being sued for have already been abanoned or surrendered by nu-TSR.

A fascinating insight from Tenkar in the comments:

You know the indiegogo campaign says any money will be given to the Gygax memorial fund?

The Gygax memorial fund is run by Paul Stromberg. Who wasn't consulted about this and wants absolutely nothing to do with nu-TSR's fundraising.
 
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