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The Butcher

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I've always been vaguely dismissive of playing or running tabletop RPGs in real time (not PbeM/PbP) over the Internet, and never did it — but now it's starting to look like an attractive alternative to a prolonged gaming dry spell.

What app(s) to use? Some people swear by straightforward conference tools like Skype or Google Hangout, while others default to virtual tabletops like Roll20.

Any pointers with regards to actual gaming content? Are certain systems or campaign premises more or less appropriate to an online game?
 
Well, the fewer moving pieces you have to deal with, the better. Card based systems (including, but not limited to, Savage Worlds) get a little more cumbersome. Fantasy Grounds is a steeper investment than Roll20, but does a LOT of the work up front (but is less flexible). We're probably eventually going the Roll20 route, but we're not sure.
 
I've done roll20 in three campaigns now (two as a player) and used a variety of other methods to run games online before that. My humble personal opinions follow.

The absence of body language and other visual cues for the GM to steer things with or sense the intent and direction of players is a big deal. In fact, it's probably a deal breaker for me at this point (except for 1-on-1 games, more on that later). No, webcams really don't help much at all, and even the highest microphone quality can't resolve every comprehension issue. Corralling the players, adjudicating their plans and keeping them on task is much harder. Everything takes 50% to 100% longer to resolve between the miscommunications, required extra explanations, tangents, and distractions.

Oh heavens, the distractions! The paradox is, because online games are easier to set up, the players take them less seriously. If you thought people getting distracted by their phones was irritating in real life sessions, that's nothing compared to people getting tempted by the comfort of browsing the internet on the big screen they are already using to play the session. The worst part is, I catch myself doing it TOO! As soon as there is a lull between turns in my brother's roll20 campaign, I find myself on garbage like imgur despite admonishing others and flagellating myself about it all the time. It's just too easy when the GM isn't right there using body language and physical proximity to maintain focus.

Roll20 is probably best for simple and somewhat abstract system. The less space between individual player 'spotlight' moments, the better. The less you have to use words to compensate for the lack of body language and spatial demonstrations, the better. While the ability to run grid-based encounters with virtual miniatures seems like a great idea, theater of the mind will be much less stressful.

The only thing that has worked perfectly for me online is 1-on-1 sessions; one GM, one player. The player can't get distracted because they are always in the spotlight. Because the typical 1-on-1 session is an hour long and very intense (getting done in that time what a full group would need 5-6 hours to accomplish) the GM has time and intimacy to compensate for the loss of other social cues. I think I'll stick to such gaming online for the foreseeable future.

Again, merely my opinions.
 
My Roll20 experience has been the same with f2f groups: people are people. I have a group I'm playing with now weekly, which is a reduction of an original group who came together to play TORG. We like each other, are committed to the weekly game, and communicate well. And we're spread across the country.

I've had other groups flame out entirely after a session or two. So my experience with Roll20 (and pbp) isn't really all that different from face to face gaming.

Anyway, I like Roll20 for the fact that we can launch the app, set up a GM screen and take out the books, and get going. I used FG too but felt it required a lot more setup, but I suspect that was my problem and not a thing with the tool.
 
Well, the fewer moving pieces you have to deal with, the better. Card based systems (including, but not limited to, Savage Worlds) get a little more cumbersome. Fantasy Grounds is a steeper investment than Roll20, but does a LOT of the work up front (but is less flexible). We're probably eventually going the Roll20 route, but we're not sure.

I agree on systems with less moving pieces. I love Savage Worlds, but as I am mostly gaming via video chat at the moment, I have it on the back burner. It works fine online, but it just doesn't have the full magic of the system when we aren't physically tossing bennies back and forth and dealing out cards.

I stay away from anything that uses minis. Yeah, I know their are excellent virtual tabletop systems out there, and I play in games other people run that use them very effectively. I just like to run my games loosely. When I use minis in face-to-face play, I can still sketch out any scene that is needed on the battlemat. With a VTT, I feel more obliged to have a fancy map and counters ready, and then I feel boxed in by my prep. That has led to me just using straight Hangouts and Skype with theater of the mind play.

Once again, that is just me talking about my GM style. VTT are going to work well for a lot of people.

I should add that I just let everyone roll their own real dice and tell me the result. I'm not concerned about cheating, and it makes thing smoother.

he absence of body language and other visual cues for the GM to steer things with or sense the intent and direction of players is a big deal. In fact, it's probably a deal breaker for me at this point (except for 1-on-1 games, more on that later). No, webcams really don't help much at all, and even the highest microphone quality can't resolve every comprehension issue. Corralling the players, adjudicating their plans and keeping them on task is much harder. Everything takes 50% to 100% longer to resolve between the miscommunications, required extra explanations, tangents, and distractions.

This is true. I really like playing via webcam, but it's still not the equal of being in the same room. One issue is people starting to talk at the same time and then stopping and hesitating. It happens a lot more in video chat than real life. It's like some unspoken cue of when people are about to talk is lost.

It is a lot harder to explain rules to people as well. I tried a game of Mythras online with a group that had never played it. I sent them all the necessary handouts they needed, such as a chart of Combat Special Effects, but explaining how everything worked was so hard over video chat. If we were all in the same room, I could have easily walked them through it all. The session went okay, but I will probably never run Mythras again online for people that don't know the system already.

Oh heavens, the distractions! The paradox is, because online games are easier to set up, the players take them less seriously. If you thought people getting distracted by their phones was irritating in real life sessions, that's nothing compared to people getting tempted by the comfort of browsing the internet on the big screen they are already using to play the session. The worst part is, I catch myself doing it TOO! As soon as there is a lull between turns in my brother's roll20 campaign, I find myself on garbage like imgur despite admonishing others and flagellating myself about it all the time. It's just too easy when the GM isn't right there using body language and physical proximity to maintain focus.

Roll20 is probably best for simple and somewhat abstract system. The less space between individual player 'spotlight' moments, the better. The less you have to use words to compensate for the lack of body language and spatial demonstrations, the better. While the ability to run grid-based encounters with virtual miniatures seems like a great idea, theater of the mind will be much less stressful.

This is another reason I stick to theater of the mind games online without a VTT. Once players are fiddling with an interface, and counting squares of movement, you add a lot of time to resolution. That's when players start surfing. With theater of the mind, it is a lot easier for me to keep the pace moving. Even in tabletop play, my feeling on combat is that it needs to be fast. Online play just makes it an even bigger priority for me.
 
Interesting input, thank you all.

Since simpler/more abstract/theater-of-the-mind-friendly systems seem better suited to the medium, I'm considering TSR/OSR D&D, Traveller/Cepheus, WoD/CoD or maybe even something less traditional like PbtA or Cypher. No D&D5, Mythras or SW.
 
Interesting input, thank you all.

Since simpler/more abstract/theater-of-the-mind-friendly systems seem better suited to the medium, I'm considering TSR/OSR D&D, Traveller/Cepheus, WoD/CoD or maybe even something less traditional like PbtA or Cypher. No D&D5, Mythras or SW.

Those are all systems I would feel comfortable running online.
 
See, my experience is opposite. I find that online players stay on track much better than in-person ones.

I generally prefer Hangouts for larger video, but then roll20 on the side for maps/etc.

Most of my experience has been running Fate and PbtA systems, which I think tend towards quicker turns and are more interesting to pay attention to during other peoples' turns.
 
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See, my experience is opposite. I find that online players stay on track much better than in-person ones.

I generally prefer Hangouts for larger video, but then roll20 on the side for maps/etc.

Most of my experience has been running Fate and PbtA systems, which I think tend towards quicker turns and are more interesting to pay attention to during other peoples' turns.

Brendan Davis and I were talking about online gaming in a podcast today, and he mentioned one way in which online games do have more focus. There is a lot less random table talk. People tend to log in, start the game, and and there isn't a whole lot of side chatter. When the game is over, people often log out quickly.

I think it because everyone is sharing a single channel of communication. When you are in the same room, it is possible to chatter a bit with the guy next to you while you are both waiting for your turn. In video chat, only one person can talk at once. Personally, I will still make the occasional OOC aside, but I am more sparing with it. If people get distracted, it a more solitary form of distraction.

I agree with you on the importance of quick turns. You really want to keep things moving in a online game. Most video chat sessions are also only a couple of hours, in my experience. I don't want to run a game where a single combat can eat up a good chunk of the session.
 
@ robiswrong and Baulderstone

Interesting points.
Perhaps part of the issue is that I am especially used to leaning on body language because I'm a teacher. Another problem might be that my online crews are mostly people who have known each other a long time and don't get many opportunities to hang out otherwise. Those 4-6 hour stretches must partly accommodate their reasonable need for general camaraderie, not just tabletop strategizing. The two drives interfere with each other.
 
@ robiswrong and Baulderstone

Interesting points.
Perhaps part of the issue is that I am especially used to leaning on body language because I'm a teacher. Another problem might be that my online crews are mostly people who have known each other a long time and don't get many opportunities to hang out otherwise. Those 4-6 hour stretches must partly accommodate their reasonable need for general camaraderie, not just tabletop strategizing. The two drives interfere with each other.

Actually, if you are playing with long-time friends, you will get a lot more camaraderie. If a group has a history together, things are looser and old rhythms kick in. Even online only groups can loosen up with time. It just takes a little longer. I am currently playing in a game Brendan is running where he is the only one I know, so my mind is more in that place at the moment.

It's a bit like a telephone conversation. If I am talking to someone I don't know on the phone, things tend to stay formal due to the lack of social cues. When I talk to an old friend on the phone, I know them well enough that I don't need as many social cues to read them.
 
Actually, if you are playing with long-time friends, you will get a lot more camaraderie. If a group has a history together, things are looser and old rhythms kick in.

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Nope, my groups are like like a mahjong table of old Chinese ladies. They love each other just fine, and they express that love in a 'rhythm' of constant interruptions, tangents, gossip, cultural references, and conversation about each other's real life issues. Can't really blame them, they don't see each other very much nowadays. A game certainly takes place, but not fast and not efficiently, especially online.
 
A combination of either Fantasy Grounds or Roll20 and some other VoIP solution is best, IMO. I find video distracting, but YMMV. Personally, I prefer using Roll20 and Mumble together. Both can be used on nearly any operating system (including Linux, Android, and iOS), and complement each other nicely.
 
Every online group I've been in seems to use a different setup... most use Roll20 for game bits but something else for sound... Discord, G+ Hangouts, Skype.
One group uses Fantasy Grounds + Hangouts but I see no benefit in it over Roll20.

I've seen a few groups use Roll20 with all the bells and whistles, dynamic lighting and such, but IMO it was a distraction and made play more like a boardgame. Most groups I'm in now just sketch things up as needed.

Most of the groups I'm in seem pretty stable. One is open table but always has at least 3 of us who have been in long-term. All of them seem more focused on the game than the face-to-face group I play in.
 
Now we've got a chat-room here with a dice-roller, you can have live chat gaming sessions. I've got a few ideas for rules to stop it becoming a chat free-for-all and might try to get a game going next weekend once i've got things straight.
 
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Well, the fewer moving pieces you have to deal with, the better. Card based systems (including, but not limited to, Savage Worlds) get a little more cumbersome. Fantasy Grounds is a steeper investment than Roll20, but does a LOT of the work up front (but is less flexible). We're probably eventually going the Roll20 route, but we're not sure.

I may be revisiting this. Roll20 has a built in card deck, which would seem to work for initiative. Just gotta figure out how it works for Edges like Quick and Level Headed, and whether it maintains them round to round.

Getting ready to relaunch my group with half in Oklahoma and half in Florida, so I'm suddenly motivated to figure this out.
 
Hell, the card deck is completely manual. Just deal them on the virtual "table" and go and recall them as needed. I only see complications when doing something like playing a Huckster in Deadlands and needing your own deck, and I don't KNOW if that's a problem. It may already be addressed.
 
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Nope, my groups are like like a mahjong table of old Chinese ladies. They love each other just fine, and they express that love in a 'rhythm' of constant interruptions, tangents, gossip, cultural references, and conversation about each other's real life issues. Can't really blame them, they don't see each other very much nowadays. A game certainly takes place, but not fast and not efficiently, especially online.

LoL. This is our Skype game on Wednesday night. The four of us had been playing together, usually with other players also, for thirty years. Then I retired and moved down here to Florida. Now our game goes just as you describe. We got together at six this past evening and really didn't start playing until nearly eight. But it was fun.

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https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/218159/Glory-Road-Roleplay-Core-Rules
 
I like online text-chat, which is about half as fast as talking, but maintains a record so distraction not really an issue, and you get a nice log at the end you can read over at leisure and see all the cool stuff you missed... I play in the Dragonsfoot chat rooms which have integrated dice roller function ("/roll").
It's different from regular tabletop and not suited to minis/tactical-heavy games like 4e D&D, but has advantages similar to PBEM/PBP in potential greater depth of characterisation.

Edit: Also, first post, hello everyone. :smile:
 
I like RPGs online. I tend to use a plain Hangout, and now that the dice roller app has ceased working, we use physical dice and report the results. I avoid systems with positional tactical combat online though; a degree of abstraction is needed.

But when I got used to it. I found it working about 80% to 90% as well for me as face to face, with the retrictions in mind. It doesn't feel worse to me when it comes to distractions, though a big part of that is down to those I play with online. And it's blooming convenient for playing with people who are friends, but are geographically scattered.
 
Online gaming brings so much convenience. I bought Fantasy Grounds more than a decade ago and have used it a bunch over that time. It is the best money I have ever spent on software. At the time, it was the best there was to make it happen and nothing since has taken me away. I'm going to mention FG because that's what I used, but if you want to try one of the other ones, go for it.

Like some others have mentioned, I was very concerned with flaky online players. Back then everyone had to buy the FG software to play. I loved that the purchase acted as a minimum measure of commitment. Folks had to spend some cash so there were no spontaneous flaky folks taking things for a spin for kicks. Since then Fantasy Grounds added a way for people to be players without spending any money if the GM purchased a more expensive license. Even still, for the most part my experience with the players has been good. Certainly, on par with the chances of enjoying any live person game with random people. Certainly, if you develop a regular gaming group, I don't find the 'quality' of the experience is much different from what would be expected in person. (Quality meaning things like the distractions mentioned above.)

Some have also mentioned the benefit of being able to play with friends that are no longer living locally to each other. I've played in multiple campaigns that have lasted over a year. Depending on the mix of people, that same experience can develop over time despite starting out as strangers. Friendships develop, inside jokes arise, moments in (real) life are shared, and a history of gaming grows. Just from those that I've gotten to know, I know I've played rpgs regularly with folks in North America, South America, Europe, Asia, and Australia. That's a breadth of experience that's hard to beat in a weekly gaming group. (I was trying to remember if I could include the rest of the continents, but my aging memory fails me.. so I err on the side of accuracy. Antarctica was going to be a real stretch.)

When I started out we played our sessions using the text chat. Now, most people use voice coms to supplement. However, there are still occasional groups that play without voice. I sat in on one such group back in the spring.

I've played a couple of sessions of Savage Worlds on Fantasy Grounds. The FG ruleset for SW is great. The cards are dealt and folks are ordered in the combat tracker. If you have the edge that requires that cards below X be replaced it does that automatically. It will track your bennies, etc. I've been trying to learn more about SW which is why I've been trying to get into some oneshots. I've seen enough to want to give it a closer look. I just have to find a group meeting up at times I can make!

Besides SW, on FG I have played DnD3.5, DnD4e, DnD5e, Gurps, Pathfinder, Castles and Crusades, and other d20 systems like Arcana Evolved and Iron Heroes. I'm leaving out a few that I've played in one shots, I am sure. I know I've done some of the retro clones, but can't remember which.

If you are filling up your game time with face to face games, great! Keep living the dream. If you wish you could manage to find more groups... don't knock online games. You can have fun... make friends... and take over the worl... wait, that's not right for this forum. Forget that last part. I mean, unless you are taking over the world as part of your campaign goals... yea, that's what I meant.
;)
 
I've dabbled with online play, but my real life is complicated and tends to get in the way of extended commitments. It's an issue.

Google Hangouts used to be good, but apparently it's been 'upgraded' which means a loss of things like the Dicestream app. Which is annoying. I've played in (and been a GM for) full scale chat based games. Which were fun for a while, but I'm kind of burned out on L5R, so I'm not as into that as I was. I've also messed around a bit with Roll20 as a VTT and Discord for sound. It worked, but i never really got my head round using Roll20 as anything more than a dice roller.

I think now, i'd be likely to go with a combination of a folder on my Google Drive as a place to store character sheets and handouts, combined with Discord and one of the many dice rollers you can get for that.
 
Our first run with Roll20 went well, playing Deadlands Reloaded. It was me, one of my players and my son in my office in Oklahoma, and two other players (a married couple) in Florida. All the audio went through a single computer on each end since we were all in the same rooms.

Looking very likely we continue that way.
 
I've ran games in Roll20. They worked well. I also used various VOIP stuff for voice. I'd use Discord if I ran again.

One game was a Pathfinder game. Worked well with the interface and mapping. Roll20 is a little finicky, but it's okay.

Another was Atomic Robo Fate in a scifi/steampunk system. It didn't need an in-depth map, but I used the backing for atmospheric pictures of locations and the occasional drawn zone map.

I'm working on a Blades in the Dark game now, to run sometime. Should be fun and will work fairly well I think.

One thing Roll20 doesn't handle uber-well is weird dice. Savage Worlds needed a few tweaks and I just don't think it worked uber-well. I hear if you get a premium account, you can link into the API and that would make it work better.
 
Yeah, I've got a Pro account and there's a sweet, sweet character sheet that has most of the dice macros pre programmed in. The "fun" part was putting the entire Adventure Deck in. That took me about three days, but it's such an essential part of our games that I had to do it.
 
I did a little Roll20 playing, and apart from some technical problems and a bad system (I used it to test FAGE), one detriment was pretty much the one I expected: The lack of focus really annoyed me as a GM. I mean, it's bad enough when you have people using their smartphones at the table, but the things you hear people do during a weeknight game session...
Next time I'm doing this, it's going to be with video feeds.

I've also fiddled around a bit with MapTool, mostly as a tool for actual real world tabletop playing (manipulating a map that's shown to the players via a projector), but it's definitely a decent alternative to the paid services. Anything that doesn't use the web usually is.
 
I was scared to death of the focus issue for the reasons you mentioned, but my players were all laser focused. Heck, one of my players who was always pretty scatterbrained in person was COMPLETELY on point during the game. Apparently she legit functions better when all her stuff is on a screen in front of her. Totally get what you're saying, I just lucked out that ours went the opposite way.
 
Note that mine were random people met through roll20 itself, not my regular group(s). That probably makes quite a difference.
 
I've played for years using Fantasy Grounds. The focus issue is real. It's also contagious. The more others get distracted or discuss things off topic the less focused everyone becomes. If you're doing a beer and pretzels night that's fine but the gaming does suffer.
I do feel FG helps focus things because players don't have to be experts at the rules. The system automates so much of the things like saving throws, to hit modifiers, duration (round based spells only) etc that people can focus on what they want to do not what they need to look up.
 
Honestly, I've not had issues with focus to a large extent. Perhaps because the people I game with are friends? The only focus issues I've had are ones that would've been there face to face, like the time one of my players couldn't concentrate because of a death in the family (he REALLY wanted a distraction, so attended anyway, but couldn't really do much. And I /sure/ wasn't going to call him on it.)
 
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