Outlaws of the Water Margin

TristramEvans

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I'm reminded of a game of Greek Myths I encountered years ago, I can't recall the name off the tip of the tongue. It put a strong empasis on position in combat, but it was abstracted, such that you played out combats on a checkered board. Fun, but a bit too boardgame over role-playing (it bears a strong resemblance to the combat in Kingdom Death, which is great fun, but firmly steeped in the realm of miniatures wargame). Anyways, that's neither here nor there.

I think you're definitely onto something with this...

Sleepyscholar of Shentian said:
The problem is that additional rules rarely increase dynamism. They are more likely to slow it down.

On the other hand, dynamism derives from variation, from choice.
I've long been an advocate of the former, I prefer very quick and loose combats, and I think this is where far too often the "rules writer" butts heads with practical gameplay. Many times I've come up with elaborate combat systems in an attempt to simulate the varied aspects of a combat encounter, only to find that in a game I would ignore them as superfluous. As long as the players feel the freedom that multiple choices have meaning, they will engage a combat creatively. The more codified rules presented, I've found, the more there is a tedency to try and identify one "optimal" option and repeat and nauseum.

But the latter is an interesting point. I'd almost be tempted to offer that caveat that it's not simply choice, but "tactical choice", insofar as the tension of combat can be increased/replicated by varying elements of risk/reward. In other words, It seems like the kind of combat that you want to encourage is one that rewards players for taking risks.
 

Sleepyscholar of Shentian

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But the latter is an interesting point. I'd almost be tempted to offer that caveat that it's not simply choice, but "tactical choice", insofar as the tension of combat can be increased/replicated by varying elements of risk/reward. In other words, It seems like the kind of combat that you want to encourage is one that rewards players for taking risks.
Sort of. What I really want to encourage is one that rewards players with entertainment for their investment of decision-making. I want to make it easier for all the players to visualise a (dramatic) combat in their mind's eyes. One problem I had going through the combat rules was that I wanted to ditch most of it. But at the same time there were lots of situations that seemed to me had to be catered for. I finally allowed myself to add the above rules, because they enabled me to slightly reduce the number of stray 'Oh, here's an arbitrary rule to handle X' sections.

This tension is one that is affecting virtually everything I do on the game. I original wanted to have floor plans and illustrations of major building types. I can't do that. So I'm settling for brief descriptions of major house types, with perhaps a picture or two. Similarly, I'll be fleshing out a few of the lists of character types, but the price paid for that is I won't be adding any more characters from the stories. It's not ideal, but it's all I can realistically do in the time (and with the resources) available to me.
 

TristramEvans

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Sort of. What I really want to encourage is one that rewards players with entertainment for their investment of decision-making.
lol, well, naturally, though I haven't managed to quantify entertainment as a concept, myself.


I want to make it easier for all the players to visualise a (dramatic) combat in their mind's eyes. One problem I had going through the combat rules was that I wanted to ditch most of it. But at the same time there were lots of situations that seemed to me had to be catered for. I finally allowed myself to add the above rules, because they enabled me to slightly reduce the number of stray 'Oh, here's an arbitrary rule to handle X' sections.

This tension is one that is affecting virtually everything I do on the game. I original wanted to have floor plans and illustrations of major building types. I can't do that. So I'm settling for brief descriptions of major house types, with perhaps a picture or two. Similarly, I'll be fleshing out a few of the lists of character types, but the price paid for that is I won't be adding any more characters from the stories. It's not ideal, but it's all I can realistically do in the time (and with the resources) available to me.
I'm interested in seeing how it turns out. I'm curious if it's a lack of access to specific resources preventing the inclusion of building plans as you intended, or is this a space/time issue?
 

Voros

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That sounds right. It was an interesting game, a blend of co-operation and PvP in the quest for Glory among mythical Greek islands, with a highly-styalized cobat system.
That's it, designed by John Harper of Lady Blackbird, The Regiment (so good), World of Dungeons and Blades in the Dark.
 

Panzerkraken

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lol, well, naturally, though I haven't managed to quantify entertainment as a concept, myself.

I'm interested in seeing how it turns out. I'm curious if it's a lack of access to specific resources preventing the inclusion of building plans as you intended, or is this a space/time issue?
Based on what he's saying around that, I think that it's in order to avoid limiting the narrative with maps. Like I have a definite image of what the Fortress of Mount Liang looks like in my head from reading the story, but it's almost certainly not what you would picture; allowing for that narrative freedom is what I think he's aiming for to some degree.
 

Sleepyscholar of Shentian

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Based on what he's saying around that, I think that it's in order to avoid limiting the narrative with maps. Like I have a definite image of what the Fortress of Mount Liang looks like in my head from reading the story, but it's almost certainly not what you would picture; allowing for that narrative freedom is what I think he's aiming for to some degree.
No: it's lack of time to dig out the resources, and a relative lack of available resources. I can find stuff about most buildings, but to make it usable in a game I'd need to commission an artist. That sort of thing!

I've found photos of Mt Liang (it seems to have been turned into a theme park) and I wouldn't for a moment consider using any of that, not least because the geography has changed so drastically in the intervening years. And of course, on top of that is the aesthetic point you make that we're aiming for the Liangshan Po in our imaginations, not the historical one.

The reason I wanted to include all this stuff is very simple: whenever I used to run games set in anything other than our world, modern times, I would run up against practical considerations that the game didn't explain. To stick with the housing one: what are houses made of? How many rooms? How are the rooms arranged? How are they furnished? And all that can sometimes matter in a game. For medieval games I was lucky that I did a project on castles as part of the experimental O-Level course I took. But for other games -- especially the culture games that I like -- there's a big hole here (and in other areas). So I wanted to make sure that players and ref at least had some basic information with which to work. But of course, the difficulty is knowing how much is going to be just enough be going on...

Also, I should add, an inability to quantify entertainment as a concept is hobbling my progress!
 

TJS

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No: it's lack of time to dig out the resources, and a relative lack of available resources. I can find stuff about most buildings, but to make it usable in a game I'd need to commission an artist. That sort of thing!

I've found photos of Mt Liang (it seems to have been turned into a theme park) and I wouldn't for a moment consider using any of that, not least because the geography has changed so drastically in the intervening years. And of course, on top of that is the aesthetic point you make that we're aiming for the Liangshan Po in our imaginations, not the historical one.

The reason I wanted to include all this stuff is very simple: whenever I used to run games set in anything other than our world, modern times, I would run up against practical considerations that the game didn't explain. To stick with the housing one: what are houses made of? How many rooms? How are the rooms arranged? How are they furnished? And all that can sometimes matter in a game. For medieval games I was lucky that I did a project on castles as part of the experimental O-Level course I took. But for other games -- especially the culture games that I like -- there's a big hole here (and in other areas). So I wanted to make sure that players and ref at least had some basic information with which to work. But of course, the difficulty is knowing how much is going to be just enough be going on...

Also, I should add, an inability to quantify entertainment as a concept is hobbling my progress!
It's really frustrating how samey and limited game resources are. I wanted a medieval style merchant's house awhile ago and I have a good general idea of what a medieval merchant's house should look like. Yet when I went looking for a map, I discovered that 99% of game resources out there for merchant's houses were actually 19th century Victorian houses.

And this was for a time and place that most rpgs are ostensibly based on!
 
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Sleepyscholar of Shentian

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It's really how frustrating how samey and limited game resources are. I wanted a medieval style merchant's house awhile ago and I have a good general idea of what a medieval merchant's house should look like. Yet when I went looking for a map, I discovered that 99% of game resources out there for merchant's houses were actually 19th century Victorian houses.

And this was for a time and place that most rpgs are ostensibly based on!
Exactly!

And could you actually tell me how rooms are arranged in a 12th century Chinese house?
 

Panzerkraken

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And could you actually tell me how rooms are arranged in a 12th century Chinese house?
From reading the stories, it seemed like the kitchen and storerooms were downstairs, and the living spaces upstairs, mostly made of single rooms with a bed and a sitting area. I get the impression there was a central hall depending on how the building fit into the layout of the city.

The image I got of the various bars the heroes are always hanging out in seemed to vary between something like a version of modern booth and table (probably with lower table aligned with the eastern customs) or an open-air environment with a small enclosed structure, probably with large shutters you'd pull up as awnings.

And that's actually mostly from the read, most of my experience with Korean architecture didn't look much like what was described in OotWM, and I've never been to China.
 

Sleepyscholar of Shentian

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From reading the stories, it seemed like the kitchen and storerooms were downstairs, and the living spaces upstairs, mostly made of single rooms with a bed and a sitting area. I get the impression there was a central hall depending on how the building fit into the layout of the city.

The image I got of the various bars the heroes are always hanging out in seemed to vary between something like a version of modern booth and table (probably with lower table aligned with the eastern customs) or an open-air environment with a small enclosed structure, probably with large shutters you'd pull up as awnings.

And that's actually mostly from the read, most of my experience with Korean architecture didn't look much like what was described in OotWM, and I've never been to China.
'Downstairs' immediately raises problems, as the main types of houses were single storey! The impression I get (and the problem is that most of the material on houses is based on the well-off) is that multistorey housing was more likely to be found along the valley of the Long River. Serious buildings in the city might be multistory, but on the North China Plain (which is the main location for the book), most houses are mud-based, single-storey, with flat roofs. There's also the siheyuan courtyard buildings for wealthy people and larger family groups. These also mainly seem to be single-storey, and are built around courtyards (wealthy families have inner courtyards for family only). I think these are more what you're getting at with the 'central hall', though it's a courtyard, not a hall. Out on the loess plain there are also the Yaodong: buildings built into the hillside, or with a sunken courtyard. And there are all sorts of different styles for minority groups like the Hakka.

Now, my point is that you're someone who actually has good knowledge about this background! I have to try to convey some simple sense of the architecture (and never mind that I'm no expert myself) to people who are rather less familiar with the background.
 

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'Downstairs' immediately raises problems, as the main types of houses were single storey! The impression I get (and the problem is that most of the material on houses is based on the well-off) is that multistorey housing was more likely to be found along the valley of the Long River. Serious buildings in the city might be multistory, but on the North China Plain (which is the main location for the book), most houses are mud-based, single-storey, with flat roofs. There's also the siheyuan courtyard buildings for wealthy people and larger family groups. These also mainly seem to be single-storey, and are built around courtyards (wealthy families have inner courtyards for family only). I think these are more what you're getting at with the 'central hall', though it's a courtyard, not a hall. Out on the loess plain there are also the Yaodong: buildings built into the hillside, or with a sunken courtyard. And there are all sorts of different styles for minority groups like the Hakka.

Now, my point is that you're someone who actually has good knowledge about this background! I have to try to convey some simple sense of the architecture (and never mind that I'm no expert myself) to people who are rather less familiar with the background.
Films, although I realize rarely historically accurate, seem like a better guide here as I recognize most of what has been described from period films.
 

the gambler

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. What I missed was the rhythm of combat. ......... And furthermore, there will be occasions which break off the flurry of blows (I think flurry is going to become an important new game term).

Funnily enough this makes me think of the 80s cartoon rpg Toon.

In a Toon fight, both characters roll their Fight skill - if one succeeds and one fails the fight is over. But if both succeed, or both fail, the fight continues for another round. If a fight goes for three rounds without either character winning, both characters collapse exhausted.

Now although this was supposed to represent the crazy blur of fists flying in a cartoon, I always wondered if it could be adapted to other games in some way, to represent that flurry of blows and rhythm that you mention.

I’ve played around with the idea of “escalation”, where characters alternate blows/dice rolls, each time having to roll better than the other until one fails, but it’s never quite come together. And then easily factoring tactical elements into the rolls to create interest is the other issue.
 
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TristramEvans

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There was an indy online game I read years ago, cn't recall the name, but each combatant rolled a pool of D6 equal to their combat ability, every result of 4 a throw, 5 was a punch/kick, and 6 a special move, and every 1-3 a defense (block or dodge), and then combatants took turns playing an individual dice against each other. Your opponent could throw down a 4 and kick you and you could counter with a 1-3, throw them with a 5, or take the hit and throw your own punch or use a special move. Combos would let you string together several dice at once.
 

Fenris-77

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There was an indy online game I read years ago, cn't recall the name, but each combatant rolled a poll of D6 equal to their combat ability, every result of 4 a throw, 5 was a punch/kick, and 6 a special move, and every 1-3 a defense (block or dodge), and then combatants took turns playing an individual dice against each other. Your opponent could throw down a 4 and kick you and you could counter with a 1-3, throw them with a 5, or take the hit and throw your own punch or use a special move. Combos would let you string together several dice at once.
That's a pretty cool idea.
 

the gambler

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There was an indy online game I read years ago, cn't recall the name, but each combatant rolled a pool of D6 equal to their combat ability, every result of 4 a throw, 5 was a punch/kick, and 6 a special move, and every 1-3 a defense (block or dodge), and then combatants took turns playing an individual dice against each other. Your opponent could throw down a 4 and kick you and you could counter with a 1-3, throw them with a 5, or take the hit and throw your own punch or use a special move. Combos would let you string together several dice at once.
Yes, that’s neat, and has that idea of a series of quick exchanges between the players.
 

Sleepyscholar of Shentian

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Films, although I realize rarely historically accurate, seem like a better guide here as I recognize most of what has been described from period films.
True. Though the problem with films is you rarely have regional/temporal context. Most of the kind of films you're describing are Hong Kong films set rather later than Water Margin. While we don't want to shackle ourselves too much with historical pedantry, it's easy to run into the phenomenon TJS identified, where your 12th century China looks more like 19th century China. Of course, players and ref are free to do that, but I feel I have a responsibility to at least provide pointers for those who do actually care about this stuff.
 

Sleepyscholar of Shentian

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Funnily enough this makes me think of the 80s cartoon rpg Toon.

In a Toon fight, both characters roll their Fight skill - if one succeeds and one fails the fight is over. But if both succeed, or both fail, the fight continues for another round. If a fight goes for three rounds without either character winning, both characters collapse exhausted.

Now although this was supposed to represent the crazy blur of fists flying in a cartoon, I always wondered if it could be adapted to other games in some way, to represent that flurry of blows and rhythm that you mention.

I’ve played around with the idea of “escalation”, where characters alternate blows/dice rolls, each time having to roll better than the other until one fails, but it’s never quite come together. And then easily factoring tactical elements into the rolls to create interest is the other issue.
I loved Toon (I seem to recall helping to organise Toon as the official RPG tournament at one Koancon or other), and in a way I'm massively influenced by its approach: namely to look at what it is you are trying to represent, and create mechanics that do that.

This whole 'flurry of blows' thing seemed useful to me, but I want it to appear in a system that is easy to use, and in which arbitrary mechanics don't intrude. I toyed with an idea that combats would always reset to facing off after 7 exchanges of blows. But of course that number is arbitrary, and it would be annoying to have to count how many rounds you'd been going for. So my compromise solution was that combatants getting a tied result would end the flurry. If anyone can think of a simpler, elegant alternative, it would be appreciated.
 

Panzerkraken

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'Downstairs' immediately raises problems, as the main types of houses were single storey! The impression I get (and the problem is that most of the material on houses is based on the well-off) is that multistorey housing was more likely to be found along the valley of the Long River. Serious buildings in the city might be multistory, but on the North China Plain (which is the main location for the book), most houses are mud-based, single-storey, with flat roofs. There's also the siheyuan courtyard buildings for wealthy people and larger family groups. These also mainly seem to be single-storey, and are built around courtyards (wealthy families have inner courtyards for family only). I think these are more what you're getting at with the 'central hall', though it's a courtyard, not a hall. Out on the loess plain there are also the Yaodong: buildings built into the hillside, or with a sunken courtyard. And there are all sorts of different styles for minority groups like the Hakka.

Now, my point is that you're someone who actually has good knowledge about this background! I have to try to convey some simple sense of the architecture (and never mind that I'm no expert myself) to people who are rather less familiar with the background.
Not partially because I'm always worried that I'm remembering something wrong, I flipped back through the copy of OotWM I was reading for the passage I was thinking about. It's from "For Money Mistress Wang Arranges a Seduction; In Anger Yunge Riots in the Tea-Shop" (Chapter 24 of the Shapiro translation):

The house in question is being rented by Wu the Elder (Three Inches of Mulberry Bark) and was described as being on Purple Stone Street in Yanggu Town. Wu The Elder is a bun peddler (so not exactly raking in the cash).

Shapiro said:
Wu Song carried his brother's shoulder-pole and hampers and Wu the Elder led the way. They wound through several lanes until they came to Purple Stone Street. They house was beside a tea-shop.

... (Wu Song meets Golden Lotus, Wu the Elder's young, unfulfilled wife)

"I heard from Mistress Wang, next door, that a hero who had killed a tiger was being welcomed at the county office. I wanted to go and see but I was delayed and got there too late. And all along it was you, brother-in-law! Please come upstairs and sit a while."

The three mounted the stairs and sat down. Golden Lotus looked at her husband. "I'll keep brother-in-law company. You prepare some food and drink so that we can entertain him."

"Fine," said Wu the Elder. "Sit a while, brother. I'll be back soon." He went downstairs.

... (Golden Lotus asks Wu Song about himself and hits on him some while talking down about her husband)

While they were talking, Wu the Elder returned with the food and wine he had bought and put them in the kitchen. He went to the foot of the stairs and called "Wife, come down and get things ready."
Also, (having freshly re-read the chapter) later when Wu Song moves in with his brother, Wu the Elder has a carpenter put in a bedroom downstairs which they specify has a bed, a table, and a charcoal brazier. I think there was an earlier chapter where they talked about an upstairs as well, but I'd probably have to reread it to find it.

Now, this is NOT intended to try to pick a pedantic fight with an actual academic on the subject, so please don't take it as such. Is there an issue with the translation, or possibly, since IIRC the credited author was really writing down an oral tradition from earlier, just a transposition of more modern architecture types on the later tellings of the story?
 

Sleepyscholar of Shentian

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Not partially because I'm always worried that I'm remembering something wrong, I flipped back through the copy of OotWM I was reading for the passage I was thinking about. It's from "For Money Mistress Wang Arranges a Seduction; In Anger Yunge Riots in the Tea-Shop" (Chapter 24 of the Shapiro translation):

The house in question is being rented by Wu the Elder (Three Inches of Mulberry Bark) and was described as being on Purple Stone Street in Yanggu Town. Wu The Elder is a bun peddler (so not exactly raking in the cash).



Also, (having freshly re-read the chapter) later when Wu Song moves in with his brother, Wu the Elder has a carpenter put in a bedroom downstairs which they specify has a bed, a table, and a charcoal brazier. I think there was an earlier chapter where they talked about an upstairs as well, but I'd probably have to reread it to find it.

Now, this is NOT intended to try to pick a pedantic fight with an actual academic on the subject, so please don't take it as such. Is there an issue with the translation, or possibly, since IIRC the credited author was really writing down an oral tradition from earlier, just a transposition of more modern architecture types on the later tellings of the story?
No, absolutely, you're right. But most ordinary houses were single-storey. The exceptions were generally houses in towns. And as I said, I think there were far more multi-storey houses along the Long River. When I 'corrected' your original point, I was referring to 'multi-storey' as a general description of Chinese houses, not denying it as a specific case.

There's also the problem -- which is one that I felt acutely when writing the game -- that my game is set in the Song Dynasty, whereas the novel is based on the technology, background and political structure of the Ming Dynasty.

You've raised an excellent point about trying to write simplified background: the danger of pronouncements obscuring the more complex reality. Virtually any pronouncement I make in the game is wrong to a certain degree, or in certain specific cases. But finding an exception to something I write doesn't necessarily make it wrong. When my agent was hawking my Judge Bao novel around publishers, one or two of them rejected it citing anachronisms. But there weren't anachronisms in the book. Those editors had simply over-valued their own preconceptions of how 'primitive' China was in the 11th century. Either that or they were complaining about the language used, which is moronic, because obviously Chinese people in the 11th century weren't speaking English!
 

the gambler

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This whole 'flurry of blows' thing seemed useful to me, but I want it to appear in a system that is easy to use, and in which arbitrary mechanics don't intrude. I toyed with an idea that combats would always reset to facing off after 7 exchanges of blows. But of course that number is arbitrary, and it would be annoying to have to count how many rounds you'd been going for. So my compromise solution was that combatants getting a tied result would end the flurry. If anyone can think of a simpler, elegant alternative, it would be appreciated.
Tied results sounds an easy way. Another suggestion is that combats last until one figure has suffered, say, 3 hits - a hit being a successful strike upon them. No damage would be resolved for a hit, the hit representing more loss of momentum and ability, but maybe a hit grants the opponent an advantage of some sort. After 3 hits the combat ends and damage etc is resolved.
Do you have criticals? Perhaps a critical is worth 2 hits

This does involve some small bookkeeping, but not a lot ...
 
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Sleepyscholar of Shentian

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Tied results sounds an easy way. Another suggestion is that combats last until one figure has suffered, say, 3 hits - a hit being a successful strike upon them. No damage would be resolved for a hit, the hit representing more loss of momentum and ability, but maybe a hit grants the opponent an advantage of some sort. After 3 hits the combat ends and damage etc is resolved.
Do you have criticals? Perhaps a critical is worth 2 hits

This does involve some small bookkeeping, but not a lot ...
Again, it requires counting. 3 is easier than 7, of course. I don't have 'criticals' per se, though I guess doubles would be the equivalent.

Worth a thought.
 

the gambler

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Again, it requires counting. 3 is easier than 7, of course. I don't have 'criticals' per se, though I guess doubles would be the equivalent.

Worth a thought.
And I just realised that you were only talking about what signifies the end of the combat? Not who “won”?

I was thinking that 3 hits doesn’t just end the combat, it also determines the winner - the first figure to inflict 3 hits on his opponent wins the combat.
 

Sleepyscholar of Shentian

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And I just realised that you were only talking about what signifies the end of the combat? Not who “won”?

I was thinking that 3 hits doesn’t just end the combat, it also determines the winner - the first figure to inflict 3 hits on his opponent wins the combat.
I'm not going for combats that are quite that simple.

What I'm after here is: the combatants are slugging away at each other. What causes them to step back and take a breather?
 

the gambler

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I'm not going for combats that are quite that simple.

What I'm after here is: the combatants are slugging away at each other. What causes them to step back and take a breather?
Ah, my mistake .... hmmm... what causes them to step back...

1. The fighters have reached a momentary tactical impasse
2. Both fighters are temporarily fatigued
3. One fighter is momentarily “on the back foot” and steps back???

Does this sound right?
 

Sleepyscholar of Shentian

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Ah, my mistake .... hmmm... what causes them to step back...

1. The fighters have reached a momentary tactical impasse
2. Both fighters are temporarily fatigued
3. One fighter is momentarily “on the back foot” and steps back???

Does this sound right?
Yes. Now the issue is: how to I reflect that in my system? And my answer, to keep things simple, was that it happens when one combatant chooses to do so, or one combatant gets stunned or fatally injured, or when the combatants get a tied score in their combat roll.
 

the gambler

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Yes. Now the issue is: how to I reflect that in my system? And my answer, to keep things simple, was that it happens when one combatant chooses to do so, or one combatant gets stunned or fatally injured, or when the combatants get a tied score in their combat roll.
That sounds logical and straightforward... if I can ask another question, what is the game effect of taking a breather? Apart from simulating the ebb in the flow of combat, and maybe not getting wounded again :smile: .... would it provide an opportunity for fighters to regain something, or reposition themselves, get some sort of new advantage...
 

TristramEvans

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That sounds logical and straightforward... if I can ask another question, what is the game effect of taking a breather? Apart from simulating the ebb in the flow of combat, and maybe not getting wounded again :smile: .... would it provide an opportunity for fighters to regain something, or reposition themselves etc?

Not to answer for the author, but as I understand the system as it was, Energy plays a large role in the game, putting a limit on what bonuses can be added to a roll and actions that can be taken, as well as serving as a buffer against injury to an extent. Taking a breather to recover Energy would become increasingly necessary during an extended conflict
 

the gambler

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Not to answer for the author, but as I understand the system as it was, Energy plays a large role in the game, putting a limit on what bonuses can be added to a roll and actions that can be taken, as well as serving as a buffer against injury to an extent. Taking a breather to recover Energy would become increasingly necessary during an extended conflict
Oh, cool, that makes perfect sense and fits - I’m not familiar with the original system, so I’ve probably been talking a bit out of turn .. (searches for appropriate emoji but can’t quite find the right one)
 
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Sleepyscholar of Shentian

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Not to answer for the author, but as I understand the system as it was, Energy plays a large role in the game, putting a limit on what bonuses can be added to a roll and actions that can be taken, as well as serving as a buffer against injury to an extent. Taking a breather to recover Energy would become increasingly necessary during an extended conflict
Exactly. And in fact in the new version, switching from clashing to facing off also provides an opportunity to manoeuvre a bit too, if preferred.
 

AsenRG

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There was an indy online game I read years ago, cn't recall the name, but each combatant rolled a pool of D6 equal to their combat ability, every result of 4 a throw, 5 was a punch/kick, and 6 a special move, and every 1-3 a defense (block or dodge), and then combatants took turns playing an individual dice against each other. Your opponent could throw down a 4 and kick you and you could counter with a 1-3, throw them with a 5, or take the hit and throw your own punch or use a special move. Combos would let you string together several dice at once.
Thrash, maybe:tongue:?
And Celestial Warriors was kinda like that, but not quite. You had instead dice for hands, feet, and throws but only rolled them once you decided what to use them for.

True. Though the problem with films is you rarely have regional/temporal context. Most of the kind of films you're describing are Hong Kong films set rather later than Water Margin. While we don't want to shackle ourselves too much with historical pedantry, it's easy to run into the phenomenon TJS identified, where your 12th century China looks more like 19th century China. Of course, players and ref are free to do that, but I feel I have a responsibility to at least provide pointers for those who do actually care about this stuff.
Yes, please:shade:!
 
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