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Gabriel

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Not "manga-sized," whatever that means, but Palladium games are available from B&N:

Well, the item linked is listed, but like the vast majority of things B&N lists, it's out of stock online. When I check it to see if any store within 100 miles of me has it, I get a lot of stores but none that carry the item.

But no, the thing was that when Palladium relicensed Robotech, Kevin had what looked like a classic Unca Kev moment. He declared that all Robotech fans were craving a "manga format" book (A5? size). Then the feedback came in and it was overwhelmingly negative. Still, Unca Kev insisted the fans were on his side and pushed forward.

I figure it was because of some discount he would get on printing or perhaps some kind of requirement of the license. It's also possible that he was in talks to get B&N to put Robotech RPG books on shelves, but they'd only do so if the books were the "manga sized" form factor. Who knows?

Whatever the reason, the later books in the line didn't get a "manga sized" treatment, and the format didn't expand into other Palladium books lines. The manga sized books were reprinted in full size.
 

FeralToaster

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yep, I played Dead Reign. No long in-depth campaigns like with WOD or DnD but a couple o extended oneshots. Lotta interesting ideas-

player classes are two tiers normal people and survivors with survivors getting more oomph

Zombies are given location based hit points which slows down combat but does give everything that wonderful Dead Space feel

A lot of very detailed random tables which are essential to a zombie game as it gives a lotta support to the GM when the players want to go off a do their own thing.

the actual meta plot and characters are bland and forgettable but very easy to pull out and do your own thing.

overall a very nice toolbox for a tactical zombie game from what I remember, it is Palladium so be prepared but yeah pretty good..
 

Gringnr

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I have never played a Palladium game. What's the elevator pitch for that system? Strengths/weaknesses? Advantages over other systems?
 

Picaroon Jack

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yep, I played Dead Reign. No long in-depth campaigns like with WOD or DnD but a couple o extended oneshots. Lotta interesting ideas-

player classes are two tiers normal people and survivors with survivors getting more oomph

Zombies are given location based hit points which slows down combat but does give everything that wonderful Dead Space feel

A lot of very detailed random tables which are essential to a zombie game as it gives a lotta support to the GM when the players want to go off a do their own thing.

the actual meta plot and characters are bland and forgettable but very easy to pull out and do your own thing.

overall a very nice toolbox for a tactical zombie game from what I remember, it is Palladium so be prepared but yeah pretty good..
Thanks! Dead Reign pops up from time to time, but I didn't know if it was a regular, run-of-the-mill zombie game or if it had a twist.
 

FeralToaster

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I think there was twist was in the original rough draft... something about evil cultists and the end boss being a demon. I could be wrong but that was the gossip I heard at the time. It is Palladium so you can added a twist fairly easily if you want.
 

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I have never played a Palladium game. What's the elevator pitch for that system? Strengths/weaknesses? Advantages over other systems?

I'm not a fan of the 'extended universe' of inter-related systems. But first edition Paladium Fantasy Roleplaying was close enough to D+D to share all the strengths of that system, and remained simple overall, but had much better classes, much better skill system, more flavorful magic, and a much better treatment of the growth in fighting prowess with advancing level (including parries, multiple actions, etc.)
 

Dumarest

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I have never played a Palladium game. What's the elevator pitch for that system? Strengths/weaknesses? Advantages over other systems?
It's D&D mechanics with much better, more interactive combat. Also a better alignment systen if you're into that sort of thing. Primary weakness is disorganization: rules are sometimes scattered in odd places.
 

Baulderstone

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It's D&D mechanics with much better, more interactive combat. Also a better alignment systen if you're into that sort of thing. Primary weakness is disorganization: rules are sometimes scattered in odd places.
I agree except on alignment. I think D&D alignment works fine if you use it as a way of tracking what cosmic forces a character is aligned with rather than trying to make it some kind of personality type. If you are Chaotic in alignment, you have the favor of the Chaos gods. You can use chaotic artifacts and spells. If someone casts Detect Alignment, they can determine your allegiance to Chaos.

Most problems with alignment come from people using it as a personality profile test in the manner of the alignment meme.

Palladium starts with the assumption that alignment is a personality profile test, and it fixes it to make it a better at doing that, giving you some pop psychology personality types to pick from. That's fine and all, but in most Palladium games it doesn't really mean anything at all in gameplay. You pick it, put it on your sheet, and never think about it again.
 

Baulderstone

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So...just like most D&D games. :hehe:
For the most part, you aren't wrong. If someone isn't playing a cleric or some other class relying on a deal with supernatural forces, I recommend that they take Neutral. That means most PCs won't have a meaningful alignment.

On the other hand, that makes it cool when someone does take an alignment other than Neutral. In a recent game, I had a player who had a Fighter. After a battle with beastmen, he devoted himself to forces of Law, taking on that alignment. It was a notable trait of his character.

I've talked about this in other threads, so forgive me for repeating myself, but something I like about D&D alignment is that it actually expandable. In OD&D, Gygax's world had the Moorcockian forces of Law and Chaos as alignments. Later, Good and Evil where added later. There is no reason you can't keep adding alignments. If you worship the Greek gods, you can have the Olympian alignment. Maybe swearing fealty to a king gives you that kingdom as an alignment. With minor tweaks, the way alignment interacts with spells and magic items in D&D still makes sense.

One of the best part is that the GM doesn't have to play morality cop, judging every action of the PCs against their alignment. If they are loyal to their deity/pantheon/liege, their alignment is still good.

And that brings me back to the Palladium alignment system, where it is actually the GMs job to judge PC actions based on their alignment (in theory at least, as we all know they will just ignore the system anyway). Palladium's system focuses on the part of D&D alignment that I just prefer to interpret away.
 

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Personally, I've never found Alignment 'restrictive', I always took it as a guideline. Like these are the 'core values', and how the character express them is unique to them.

For me, someone Lawful has a code they don't break. Whether it follows a city's laws, or a personal belief, it's there. If it's good, it tries to benefit others. If neutral it's for the sake of it. And evil is there to benefit the character first and only.

Chaos tend to be 'free spirits' with varying degrees of maliciousness.

And Primary Neutral is a mix of the C/L axis.

It's not perfect, but for my purposes (and my tables') it's worked so far. YMMV.
 

Gabriel

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The people who actually were interested in roleplaying would pick an alignment and play it. Scrupulous and Aberrant were the most common for that type of player.

The players who didn't care grudgingly chose Anarchist so they didn't have to worry about it.

I often forget that alignment is even part of the game. I find it extraneous. People will have a character and play it, or they won't. Alignment doesn't encourage or help that.

I used to have some luck point rules tied to alignment. The more restrictive your alignment, the more luck points you got. So it rewarded Principled, Scrupulous, and Aberrant characters while penalizing Anarchists and Miscreants.

Off that topic, has anyone ever used an Impulse Chart like from SFB or Hero System's Action Phase Chart in Palladium games? My group used to always joke about it, but I don't think I've ever done it. I'm thinking about trying it out since I find myself running Heroes Unlimited recently.
 

FeralToaster

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Palladium starts with the assumption that alignment is a personality profile test, and it fixes it to make it a better at doing that, giving you some pop psychology personality types to pick from. That's fine and all, but in most Palladium games it doesn't really mean anything at all in gameplay. You pick it, put it on your sheet, and never think about it again.

Eeh, don't underestimate the value of pop psychology. Honestly explaining the alignment system as are do you want to play a Leonardo, Donatello, Michelangelo or Ralphael to a new (or an old) gamer is way more effective than explaining the philosophical abstractions of chaos and order and their interactions with a good and evil morality as they pertain to when your character should use violence or diplomacy. Palladium essentially used those archetypes to outline their alignment system and it works really well. It gave the player a guide for how their charter should behave in any given situation-

- dr. Lazlo promised a reward if we deliver the scroll instead he has more fetch quests. well let me check the character sheet yep I'm playing a Mikey guess my character gonna wreck the place till dr. Lazlo gives out the loot. a much more elegant system than say, chaotic neutral so go do something random.
 

Black Leaf

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My favourite alignment system is Nature and Demeanour in VTM 1. Instinctive and gives mechanical rewards.
 

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Has anyone played Dead Reign? How's the Palladium zombie apocalypse?

Lethal!

Dead Reign is my favourite take on the zombie apocalypse. It gives thought to how it happened, how it wasn't stopped in time, how zombies think, hunt, and persist after months or years. They are all frighteningly dangerous, hard to kill and almost all of them draw more to you. Long fights will see you overwhelmed.

There are many varieties of zombies for the Referee to use, though the classic shambling corpse is the default and all the rest are optional. My players hate the crawlers (re-animated leftovers of eaten people) because they can fit through cat flaps and hide in small spaces. The later soucebooks have some truly insane variants that I will punish challenge my group with.
 

Gabriel

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Over in the Site and Community subforum there was a topic about alignment. Edgewise noted that alignment is a good shorthand to give an idea how monsters or NPCs should act.

Yeah. I agree with that. It's one of those things that's so obvious that it kind of needs to be said or typed out so that I can consciously realize it.

In that role as a quick way to describe a very basic behaviour of an NPC, then it's immensely useful. As something for a PC to have to select to define/describe their character. Blech.
 

Baulderstone

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Over in the Site and Community subforum there was a topic about alignment. Edgewise noted that alignment is a good shorthand to give an idea how monsters or NPCs should act.

Yeah. I agree with that. It's one of those things that's so obvious that it kind of needs to be said or typed out so that I can consciously realize it.

In that role as a quick way to describe a very basic behaviour of an NPC, then it's immensely useful. As something for a PC to have to select to define/describe their character. Blech.
You do make a good point. While I found alignment for PCs largely useless in Palladium, it is a good personality shorthand for NPCs.
 

Gabriel

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I've been running Heroes Unlimited lately.

I don't really know why after all these years I've finally decided to use Heroes Unlimited. I think it's because I got hold of a 1e Revised book and the nostalgic value motivated me.

Also, I have to say that I find 1e Revised a far better organized and friendlier book than 2e. I don't know if that's just some kind of Palladium "muscle memory" from being so involved with the company's game and format duringt he 1e Revised era or if it's just an illusion projected by nostalgia, but I can easily find whatever I'm after in the 1e Revised book even though I haven't had a copy of that version in about 15 years minimum.

Anyway, I was running last night and the hero found herself chasing after a fleeing car. She decided to use her laser bow to shoot out a tire. I did a quick flip to see if I could find SDC for a tire. I couldn't find it, so I just said roll damage. Since the laser does more damage than a 9mm pistol, and I'm pretty sure a 9mm round would blow out a tire, I just went with it, said the tire blew out, and rolled a control check for the driver.

After the game I decided to look for SDC of a tire. I come from a Robotech background where everything has an MDC rating. I found SDC for the car. I found SDC for the windshield. I found SDC for the side window. I couldn't find any SDC listing for a tire.

I looked in HU2, HU1eR, Ninjas & Superspies, and even Road Hogs. The only reference I found to tires was in the Critical Damage Table (Optional). There was one result which could result in a blown tire and a control check.

I found the implication of the chart interesting. It said you only rolled on the chart after all armor had been depleted (sensible enough) and the shot was either a natural 20 or a called shot. So what I take away from this is that you can call a shot against a car, but you can't actually aim at the tire. Instead you aim for a random result on the critical hit chart. You don't aim at the tires. You say you aim and then if you hit you roll for what random effect you get due to aiming.

I can actually see how that can make a cinematic amount of sense. As I turn it over in my head, I can see how it would replicate some car gunfights from movies. From a play standpoint, it seems very tactical wargamey and somewhat strange, though.

It's more interesting to compare it to the Air Vehicle Random Combat Table (Optional). This chart is prefaced that player characters should call their shots against vehicles for specific effect. It goes on to say that this chart is used only to randomly determine what NPCS might aim at. The implication is that a PC can freely aim at any effect on this chart without rolling on it. This is quite different from the instructions on the previous but similar Critical Damage Table (Optional) for ground vehicle combat.

Another thing I thought was odd was how vehicles built with the vehicle construction rules listed in HU, N&SS, and Road Hogs don't seem to have AR unless extra armor is added. Yet, if you look at the same vehicle chassis in the sample equipment later in the book, an AR is listed. It seems that would be useful to have included on the construction charts.

Anyway...

In the end, I think a tire has 50 SDC. Damage of 1 to 4 SDC results in a leak which will drain the tire of air in 2d6 rounds divided by the amount of damage done. Damage of 5 or more will cause an explosive blowout with identical results to the Tire Shot Out entry on the Critical Damage Table. Hitting a tire in combat will usually require an aimed shot, and will often have a -3 modifier due to movement/speed. Damage obviously has to be piercing or slashing. Blunt damage isn't going to be effective. Energy might be treated as piercing depending on the circumstance. Heat probably won't work unless something like double or triple or more of the blowout threshold is met.

Continuing to drive on the tire after it blows out or goes flat will destroy it. Afterwards you can drive on rims. Regardless, speed, traction, and handling will be greatly reduced. People with more knowledge on this matter than I can dream up rules.

The driver in my game failed his control roll and ended up crashed in a ditch, so I didn't have to think about it much further.
 

Dumarest

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Off topic, but shooting out a tire wouldn't really work to stop a getaway car, even if you were able to accurately target a tire, which is extremely unlikely. It's strictly a TV/movies/RPG thing. :thumbsup:
 

Chris Brady

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Off topic, but shooting out a tire wouldn't really work to stop a getaway car, even if you were able to accurately target a tire, which is extremely unlikely. It's strictly a TV/movies/RPG thing. :thumbsup:
Only action/chase movies/shows pre-1990 do that. Nowadays, most people know that tires are mostly puncture proof, with steel-belted radials, and Kevlar lining.
 

Gabriel

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Only action/chase movies/shows pre-1990 do that. Nowadays, most people know that tires are mostly puncture proof, with steel-belted radials, and Kevlar lining.

Well, as time never progressed past the 80s for Unca Kev, and my campaign is set nebulously in the 80s (Aha's Take on Me optional), then it's still an accurate simulation. :wink:

I wish my tires were puncture proof. Just earlier this week, I had to go have a tire patched.
 

Chris Brady

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Well, as time never progressed past the 80s for Unca Kev, and my campaign is set nebulously in the 80s (Aha's Take on Me optional), then it's still an accurate simulation. :wink:
Fair cop. :grin:

I wish my tires were puncture proof. Just earlier this week, I had to go have a tire patched.
Mostly doesn't mean completely, sadly.
 

Gabriel

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But are there rules for wheel alignments?

Road Hogs p 14
"When you''re buying speed, you're buying more than a hot engine. Without good alignment the vehicle will shake itself to pieces before it ever reaches cruising speed."

So yes, according to this, the rules for speed are also covering the rules for alignment. Palladium technically has rules for wheel alignment. :clown:
 

Gabriel

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I was scrolling through a list of upcoming releases at a webstore I regularly do business with and they had multiple "commemorative" Palladium Books hardcovers listed as pre-orders: Nightbane, Beyond the Supernatural, Heroes Unlimited, Palladium Fantasy, After the Bomb, Ninjas & Superspies, Rifts.

Sadly, it looks like they're all going to be hardcovers of the 2e books. That's not too bad at all for Heroes Unlimited. It's kind of mixed for Palladium Fantasy. It's outright bad for Rifts and BTS.

I might get one or more. I might get an After the Bomb hardcover or a Heroes Unlimited. I definitely won't pre-order, because there's no telling when or even if they'll be produced. But the fact that Palladium is soliciting them broadly is a good indication they won't be vaporware like so many other things Palladium opens up pre-orders for. Plus, I think these are the farewell sign.

It's my personal guess that Siembieda will announce the winding down and closing of Palladium Books at the 2022 Open House at the very latest if he hasn't done so already. I can't see him continuing the company operations beyond April of 2023. I wouldn't be surprised if the Palladium Books website will have an unprecedented and massive sale starting holiday of 2022 to blow out any remaining inventory. Then the warehouse offices will close, and Siembieda can just accept the royalty checks from PEG and whatever income comes from DTRPG sales.
 

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I was scrolling through a list of upcoming releases at a webstore I regularly do business with and they had multiple "commemorative" Palladium Books hardcovers listed as pre-orders: Nightbane, Beyond the Supernatural, Heroes Unlimited, Palladium Fantasy, After the Bomb, Ninjas & Superspies, Rifts.

Sadly, it looks like they're all going to be hardcovers of the 2e books. That's not too bad at all for Heroes Unlimited. It's kind of mixed for Palladium Fantasy. It's outright bad for Rifts and BTS.

I might get one or more. I might get an After the Bomb hardcover or a Heroes Unlimited. I definitely won't pre-order, because there's no telling when or even if they'll be produced. But the fact that Palladium is soliciting them broadly is a good indication they won't be vaporware like so many other things Palladium opens up pre-orders for. Plus, I think these are the farewell sign.

It's my personal guess that Siembieda will announce the winding down and closing of Palladium Books at the 2022 Open House at the very latest if he hasn't done so already. I can't see him continuing the company operations beyond April of 2023. I wouldn't be surprised if the Palladium Books website will have an unprecedented and massive sale starting holiday of 2022 to blow out any remaining inventory. Then the warehouse offices will close, and Siembieda can just accept the royalty checks from PEG and whatever income comes from DTRPG sales.
BTS2 is an outrage and Kevin should have been ashamed to print that book.

Why do you think Palladium will close? Kevin’s been through so much, I really don’t see him quitting ever... but I don’t know what I don’t know.
 

Gabriel

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Why do you think Palladium will close? Kevin’s been through so much, I really don’t see him quitting ever... but I don’t know what I don’t know.
April 2023 is when Kevin reaches retirement age.

He has already stated that the next Open House will be the last.

The one thing I believe is true regarding the Crisis of Treachery is that he was willing to close the doors of the company back in 2005/06. I think he had been wanting to do so since the late 90s.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I think the tea leaves definitely point to it.
 

Rogerdee

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I would not be surprised if it did close it is literally haemorraghing money with paper copies first then pdfs with Kev's fear of people copying it.

If he did close, and I had the money I would buy PB and overhaul.....well everything.

In essence accept that the system is flawed.

I think a lot of us dislike, or actively hate the PB system, but want to play in their sandbox. But know that for individual GM's to do conversions it would take an age, so we don't bother and play in another easier to convert sandbox.

So I would ask others to do official conversions while re-writting the setting. This would include Savage Worlds across the board with a view to incorporating Swade Supers (when released); Green Ronin to covert into Modern Age and M&M - definitely well suited to that level of game; as well as more narrative games like Lord of Gossamer; Fate.

This eould get people buying and playing the games again. And ultimately money coming in the door. Maasively important.

Then like I said earlier, while this is happening new PB could revamp / re-write a better setting, and create a working system. Once this is done, do the same and let the others do conversions for you. And also let people do their own PB websites, and not threaten legal action unless someone does something dumb.
 

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I would think he's already quietly soliciting buy out offers if he wants to wind it down.
 

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I’m always surprised, when the topic of Palladium comes up, that they’re still around. I don’t mean to sound harsh but the company has just seemed on the verge for so long now.

I’m really surprised that we haven’t seen more licensed stuff like Savage Rifts and the like. And I feel like as litigious as Siembeda seems and all the TM and so on, there’s a lot from his games that are either generic or that can easily be reskinned for another game.
 

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I kind of see Palladium Books as like... a beautiful disaster, or a wild B-movie you really love. Being RPGs... there is this strong desire to want to fix them. On the other hand... things like Savage Rifts, or licensing their games out somehow feels like giving your favorite B-Movie over to a top list Hollywood director to produce a re-make. It's just not gonna have that... whatever it is. More than hope that some other company or people took over the Palladium catalog, I'd much rather see someone inspired to just make their own things based on what it was about Palladium products that fired them up in the first place.
 

Gabriel

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I’m really surprised that we haven’t seen more licensed stuff like Savage Rifts and the like. And I feel like as litigious as Siembeda seems and all the TM and so on, there’s a lot from his games that are either generic or that can easily be reskinned for another game.
You answer your own question. There's no reason to license anything from Palladium because most of the Palladium properties are very generic. I'd even say Rifts is only licensed because it's a recognizable name, not because of what is behind the brand logo.

That said, I'll immediately contradict it by saying that Palladium Books lives off it's back catalog. I think if we had the numbers we might all be shocked at how well their old books still sell. I bought a spare After the Bomb book recently, and they're still doing fresh print runs of their books, even ones as old as After the Bomb and older. I recall back in the RPGnet days of the mid-00s, there was a poster who ran a game shop who stated that even 15 years after release Rifts: Vampire Kingdoms was still a solid seller for his shop which he ordered and reordered.
 

Picaroon Jack

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You answer your own question. There's no reason to license anything from Palladium because most of the Palladium properties are very generic. I'd even say Rifts is only licensed because it's a recognizable name, not because of what is behind the brand logo.

That said, I'll immediately contradict it by saying that Palladium Books lives off it's back catalog. I think if we had the numbers we might all be shocked at how well their old books still sell. I bought a spare After the Bomb book recently, and they're still doing fresh print runs of their books, even ones as old as After the Bomb and older. I recall back in the RPGnet days of the mid-00s, there was a poster who ran a game shop who stated that even 15 years after release Rifts: Vampire Kingdoms was still a solid seller for his shop which he ordered and reordered.
Good point. Last year, I picked up a few of the Robotech books just for the sake of nostalgia.
 

Malleustein

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I can't see Kev' being able to hand over the reigns to anyone.

I can equally see him retiring and keeping control of the I.P. or selling Palladium Books entirely. No matter how generic RIFTS, Dead Reign or After the Bomb seem, they have some potential value.

At the very least, Kev' could use the ugly Harmony Gold tactics of suing anyone making anything remotely similar to what he's published. Just think of all those video games that run the risk of having a robot that looks just slightly like something from Northern Gun...
 

Gabriel

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I can't see Kev' being able to hand over the reigns to anyone.

I can equally see him retiring and keeping control of the I.P. or selling Palladium Books entirely. No matter how generic RIFTS, Dead Reign or After the Bomb seem, they have some potential value.

At the very least, Kev' could use the ugly Harmony Gold tactics of suing anyone making anything remotely similar to what he's published. Just think of all those video games that run the risk of having a robot that looks just slightly like something from Northern Gun...

They may have potential value, but the real potential value is likely not anywhere near what Siembieda would be asking for. I really don't think he will ever sell any of his IP. I personally think the whole thing with Savage Rifts is to keep the Rifts property visible and marketable after he retires.

As for using Harmony Gold tactics, I could definitely see him doing that. In fact, he has done it in the past. But I think the experience he had with the MMO named Rift, might have soured him a bit to future attempts, something happened there which cowed him a bit. It might be simply that the Rift legal team illustrated how despite his "incredible IP lawyer" his trademarks are on not so stable ground, and he may not want to test the limits now that has been revealed to him.
 

Malleustein

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They may have potential value, but the real potential value is likely not anywhere near what Siembieda would be asking for. I really don't think he will ever sell any of his IP. I personally think the whole thing with Savage Rifts is to keep the Rifts property visible and marketable after he retires.

As for using Harmony Gold tactics, I could definitely see him doing that. In fact, he has done it in the past. But I think the experience he had with the MMO named Rift, might have soured him a bit to future attempts, something happened there which cowed him a bit. It might be simply that the Rift legal team illustrated how despite his "incredible IP lawyer" his trademarks are on not so stable ground, and he may not want to test the limits now that has been revealed to him.

Oh, I'm not saying for a second that the Palladium Books' I.P. is as strong as Kev' imagines it is. But any value is some, and Kev's been writing this stuff for decades, sometimes that's all it takes to perpetuate a brand.
 

Malleustein

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Is Kev's greatest achievement going to be that he (a rpg designer with no business skills) managed to run an rpg company from foundation until retirement?

Who else can claim that? I can only think of Steve Jackson. He's nearly 70 and started SJG a year before Kev' with Palladium Books. Not that SJG has really been an rpg-focused company in a long, long time.
 

Bunch

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Age has a way of changing your mind for you sometimes. The urge to fight just to fight can give way to urge to enjoy and trade away as many headaches as possible. I don't think it's crazy for him to have reached a stage where he wants to do just the fun stuff and hand off more control to other people. Especially if he still can do what he wants. That's where I can see doing non exclusive licenses just gives him money from someone and he can keep doing his Palladium way of things in his own little world. Age is good that way.
I watched a documentary on Teenager Mutant Ninja Turtles and the creators and came away amazed the guy who made the most money out of it really just missed drawing with his buddy.
 

Black Leaf

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Is Kev's greatest achievement going to be that he (a rpg designer with no business skills) managed to run an rpg company from foundation until retirement?

Who else can claim that? I can only think of Steve Jackson. He's nearly 70 and started SJG a year before Kev' with Palladium Books. Not that SJG has really been an rpg-focused company in a long, long time.
Rick Loomis RIP? Although he never really retired.

But yeah, agree on Steve.

Unlike Kev, he is in fact a savvy businessman. But part of that means that these days the RPGs are just personal projects, while the company focuses on the money making machine that is Munchkin.
 
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