Payment in the RPG Industry

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CRKrueger

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So ignoring Mod criticism, Zak vs. Justin and Zak vs. everybody, one thing I think we can all agree on is...
James Raggi's model is working...
  • He's getting bumps from awards.
  • He's getting a fat tail that seems to be getting fatter for some products as the OSR is growing and his rep is spreading.
  • He pays people better than most RPG companies out there, proving you don't have to pay people a pittance to succeed.
  • He's moving, for a small publisher, decent amounts of physical product, not just PDFs.
...and it's working.

So once again, "common wisdom" in the RPG industry turns out to be horseshit.

I know everyone wants to get into a furball with Zak at this point, but the question remains...

Why must other companies in the RPG industry pay their people shit rather than a decent wage like Raggi does?
 
What's the paper quality like in his products? How much artwork? Those art wonks eat up most of the money IME.
 
What's the paper quality like in his products? How much artwork? Those art wonks eat up most of the money IME.
That's the first thing I thought of, actually. Zak's books, he probably does his own art, so gets paid a lump sum for both?

I have mostly PDFs, but the physical modules I do have are not full-color glossy paper with color art on every page. The game I currently play and like the most, Mythras, has great covers and good art, but it's not color inside and that's just fine.

I guess if it comes right down to it, I'd rather the authors get paid more if the production budget has to shrink in response. A high quality content B&W is worth way more to me then a full-color, coffee table book that the author got shanked on.
 
I have mostly PDFs, but the physical modules I do have are not full-color glossy paper with color art on every page. The game I currently play and like the most, Mythras, has great covers and good art, but it's not color inside and that's just fine.

I guess if it comes right down to it, I'd rather the authors get paid more if the production budget has to shrink in response. A high quality content B&W is worth way more to me then a full-color, coffee table book that the author got shanked on.

The mention of Mythras raises a related question: how much does the shift to POD affect economics and creator compensation for the hobby?
 
So ignoring Mod criticism, Zak vs. Justin and Zak vs. everybody, one thing I think we can all agree on is...
James Raggi's model is working...
  • He's getting bumps from awards.
  • He's getting a fat tail that seems to be getting fatter for some products as the OSR is growing and his rep is spreading.
  • He pays people better than most RPG companies out there, proving you don't have to pay people a pittance to succeed.
  • He's moving, for a small publisher, decent amounts of physical product, not just PDFs.
...and it's working.

So once again, "common wisdom" in the RPG industry turns out to be horseshit.

I know everyone wants to get into a furball with Zak at this point, but the question remains...

Why must other companies in the RPG industry pay their people shit rather than a decent wage like Raggi does?
Before you can even begin to answer the question, what does Raggi pay people, and what rate are you comparing it to?
 
That's the first thing I thought of, actually. Zak's books, he probably does his own art, so gets paid a lump sum for both?

Up front I get a lump sum then I get a profit-split after. But Scrap Princess gets paid separately for example, and Veins of the Earth had art on every page.

What's the paper quality like in his products?

It's the best in the business, see Carcosa for an example.

James prints with Otava Press, the oldest press in Finland, rather than printing in China.

The other small OSR companies following his lead print in North America as well.

As for "Why must other companies in the RPG industry pay their people shit rather than a decent wage like Raggi does?"

Because they have been putting out shovelware for so long they don't realize there's any other way to do it. And when Respected Industry Professionals claim that this is the only way to do it, people believe them due to the Semmelweis Reflex.
 
That's the first thing I thought of, actually. Zak's books, he probably does his own art, so gets paid a lump sum for both?

I have mostly PDFs, but the physical modules I do have are not full-color glossy paper with color art on every page. The game I currently play and like the most, Mythras, has great covers and good art, but it's not color inside and that's just fine.

I guess if it comes right down to it, I'd rather the authors get paid more if the production budget has to shrink in response. A high quality content B&W is worth way more to me then a full-color, coffee table book that the author got shanked on.

I totally agree. In fact, i'm one of those strange peeps who is quite happy to have minimal artwork in the book. No need for premium paper quality. No need for colour templates on every page. No need for half a page of full-colour artwork every three pages.

Rolemaster is still one of my favourite games. The artwork is terrible! But oddly, i wouldn't have it any other way. I'm not there for pictures, i'm there for seeing if i stumble over an imaginary deceased turtle.
 
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Before you can even begin to answer the question, what does Raggi pay people, and what rate are you comparing it to?

Complicated answer, click the link:



He doesn't much pay by the word, but gives a lump sum and sometimes a profit split.

Depends on the project but wayyyy better than the 3-6 cents per word rate that shovelware companies claim is absolutely necessary that they pay because there's no money in RPGs.
 
Other companies that are following James' lead here: Melsonian Arts, Jacob Hurst who did Hot Springs Island, Sean McCoy at Mothership, Sator Press.

Daniel over at Zweihander also is doing well by his people.
 
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So the people who can afford to pay the most, WotC, give their freelancers 7c-13c a word. Christ.
Nice to hear that Schwalb is 15c-20c. He puts out a lot of stuff too.

Maybe Daniel Fox will pop in and talk about his rates. I think he did before.
 
So the people who can afford to pay the most, WotC, give their freelancers 7c-13c a word. .

Also note though that there are a lot of people on yearly salary over there--so they get a normal living wage and write whatever is part of their job. Paizo and WOTC are big corporations and have the advantages and flaws you'd expect from such entities.

But the many indies that pull this shit have no excuse except they expect low sales and so put out low-quality product and it becomes self-fulfilling i guess
 
I think i'm right in saying that although he pays well, the kinda word-counts that you'll get with Rob aren't on the high side.
 
To throw one answer out there, licenses provide a double hit to what writers make. For one thing, the licensee is taking their share. On top of that, you get an increased number of writers eager for the chance to work on Their Favorite Property® .
So the people who can afford to pay the most, WotC, give their freelancers 7c-13c a word. Christ.
And while WotC doesn't need to pay a licensee, it's another case where "It's an honor just to get to work on D&D!" means people will sign on for less.
 
Well, i was quoted 7c a word with WotC 12 years ago, so not much has changed there...
 
What's the paper quality like in his products?
Really good. I've got Vornheim, Medusa, Veins, Frostbitten, Alice, and the corebook, and they feel like premium products. IMO the only company whose regular-edition books come close at the same sort of price is Evil Hat.

To throw one answer out there, licenses provide a double hit to what writers make. For one thing, the licensee is taking their share. On top of that, you get an increased number of writers eager for the chance to work on Their Favorite Property® .

And while WotC doesn't need to pay a licensee, it's another case where "It's an honor just to get to work on D&D!" means people will sign on for less.
I'm a software tester in real life, on commercial software, and in the commercial software industry you'll get treated with respect and paid decently, because ultimately, you have a big impact on the quality of the software, and there aren't many people clamouring for your position.

In the games industry, though, there are invariably hordes of kids wanting in because they gEt PaId To PlAy GaMeS aLl DaY (Read : Play the first level of Barbie's Horse Adventures over and over all week for a year), so the wages are poor and they're treated like crap. I have no idea why people stick there as long as they do.
 
I'm a software tester in real life, on commercial software, and in the commercial software industry you'll get treated with respect and paid decently, because ultimately, you have a big impact on the quality of the software, and there aren't many people clamouring for your position.

In the games industry, though, there are invariably hordes of kids wanting in because they gEt PaId To PlAy GaMeS aLl DaY (Read : Play the first level of Barbie's Horse Adventures over and over all week for a year), so the wages are poor and they're treated like crap. I have no idea why people stick there as long as they do.
Yep. That's the classic example.
 
I suppose a related question would be why a per word rate really applies to RPGs. Good adventure design involved something that people can easily scan and reference in play, and that conflicts with a model where writers get punished if they manage to effectively condense a five-paragraph room description down to three evocative bullet points.

It's a model that made more sense for magazines, where a certain number of column inches had to be covered in text every month.
 
To throw one answer out there, licenses provide a double hit to what writers make. For one thing, the licensee is taking their share. On top of that, you get an increased number of writers eager for the chance to work on Their Favorite Property®

My experience suggests this is very much the case. Some of the lowest rates of pay I've received have been for licensed products. Not only is there a cut that goes to the owner of the IP, but the license dictates certain levels of quality and quantity of artwork and then RPG.now takes its cut. I can't imagine there is a lot left in the pot unless sales are exceptional. More so, I've earned different rates within the same company depending on the IP. I've always got better rates of pay from the small guys. Having said that, the best was 6cents per word and the publisher was doing his own art, writing, and layout.

After the last thread on the Pub about industry rates, I've asked for greater compensation as an opening bargaining position and been met with a wall of silence.
 
I suppose a related question would be why a per word rate really applies to RPGs. Good adventure design involved something that people can easily scan and reference in play, and that conflicts with a model where writers get punished if they manage to effectively condense a five-paragraph room description down to three evocative bullet points.

It's a model that made more sense for magazines, where a certain number of column inches had to be covered in text every month.

Good point. RPGs, especially adventure modules, really should be priced by project with rough size determined beforehand.

Still, in a main rulebook or supplement with a dozen different authors, it's hard to get a varied amount. If they need 8 pages on Maritime combat, you gotta give them 8 pages.
 
As I said in the other thread:

I can say a couple of the publishers I've worked with on Savage Worlds stuff certainly felt like they were compensating me generously: Just not enough to quit my day job in light of having so damn many mouths to feed. Decent wages are relative to cost of living and spending habits, in my experience, and not a flat "this is a great wage and this is a bad wage" standard.

(Some people are married and have a spouse with a great job, so they can take the "shit wage"...some work a full 40+ and have a house full of kids and so a "decent wage" isn't much more than a bonus.)

The freelance gigs I did with Pinnacle were usually a flat rate and a rough guideline of length of the material. I know some people balked at that but, again, it worked for me. Everyone else offered me a word rate.

Editing was another beast: I got offered a rate when I got in, and it was the rate the publisher said they charged when they freelanced. I had no reason to doubt them and they were ridiculously easy to edit (their freelancers, on the other hand...), and I carried that rate out with me to other gigs.

Then I found out I was WOEFULLY undercharging compared to everyone else (explained why people were so willing to hire me to edit).
 
I suppose a related question would be why a per word rate really applies to RPGs. Good adventure design involved something that people can easily scan and reference in play, and that conflicts with a model where writers get punished if they manage to effectively condense a five-paragraph room description down to three evocative bullet points.

It's a model that made more sense for magazines, where a certain number of column inches had to be covered in text every month.

The word count usually comes with a range (i.e. at least 50,000 words but no more than 52,000 or something to that effect). It can sometimes be very challenging if the margin is tighter (if it were 50,000 but no more than 50,500). So you don't really have a lot of room to drop the page count of the book or to increase it (unless the publisher is open to some innovation or idea you have and willing to change the book format around it). It does vary a lot though because it is a quirky industry with lots of different companies doing things in different ways. But I don't think I've ever been in a position where I was tempted as a writer to deliver more words because I though I'd get more money. Still word things like word count and page count do shape the final manuscript, which does get at the point you make about someone radically pairing down the content for ease of use (though I think in that case, it would be up to how open the publisher is like I said before). I'd be curious about this aspect of Lamentations of the Flame Princess, because one of the things that sets that line apart from many others to me is that each book feels like its own thing. So I am guessing there is a lot of back and forth between James and the writers on what the physical book will be and what it needs to be based on the content.
 
So the people who can afford to pay the most, WotC, give their freelancers 7c-13c a word. Christ.
Nice to hear that Schwalb is 15c-20c. He puts out a lot of stuff too.

Maybe Daniel Fox will pop in and talk about his rates. I think he did before.

Huh. Apparently I was working for crap pay. Sometimes the project felt like the pay was crap and sometimes it didn't.
 
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Huh. Apparently I was working for crap pay. Sometimes the project felt like the pay was crap and sometimes it didn't.

Yeah. Crap pay is leveraged in many cases as 'fans' of the game are employed. It's nice when you first start out - simply to have your name in print. Once you start counting the hours involved and the grief it sometimes involves, its nearly always better to start working for yourself, or teaming up with a small publisher who works royalties or something similar. Never made that change, despite writing a metric shit-ton of material. Gamed it myself and never released it.
 
Yeah. Crap pay is leveraged in many cases as 'fans' of the game are employed. It's nice when you first start out - simply to have your name in print. Once you start counting the hours involved and the grief it sometimes involves, its nearly always better to start working for yourself, or teaming up with a small publisher who works royalties or something similar. Never made that change, despite writing a metric shit-ton of material. Gamed it myself and never released it.

The biggest fanboy project I ever did was one of the ones that felt the least like I was being taken advantage of, for whatever that's worth.

It's more than I make writing comic books 99% of the time.
 
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The biggest fanboy project I ever did was one of the ones that felt the least like I was being taken advantage of, for whatever that's worth.

It's more than I make writing comic books 99% of the time.

Perhaps we should co-author something Tommy and drag some unsuspecting publisher into our nefarious scheme!
 
Why must other companies in the RPG industry pay their people shit rather than a decent wage like Raggi does?
This is a bit of a loaded question because the answer lies in what different about the new economy of the internet versus the old economy of establishing a publishing company. Note I am NOT saying you are doing anything wrong in asking it.

The basic gist of James success lies in his ability to do the work, smart about exploiting the new paths for doing business enabled by the Internet coupled with his personal talent at making RPG products that are authentic to his tastes.

On top of that you get his ethos in dealing with collaborators and fellow authors. Which includes publishing other works under his imprint at decent compensation.

A logistical key to making this work is the low overhead he has due to the internet, digital technology, the global economy. Coupled with the time he has by going all in as his primary livelihood.

His approach is straightforward to implement for an individual independent. As long as they are willing to work as hard as him and adjust to the lessons learned. It i still a lot harder for a company to adjust because of the overhead they need.

Ah a even shorter way to put it it is James 'the gig economy' versus SJ Games/Wizard 'we are a company who publishes games. It is been my observation that the gig economy is much better at compensation at the individual level. But a the price of one having to don multiple hats. While at a game publisher you can be just an author.
 
I'd be curious about this aspect of Lamentations of the Flame Princess, because one of the things that sets that line apart from many others to me is that each book feels like its own thing. So I am guessing there is a lot of back and forth between James and the writers on what the physical book will be and what it needs to be based on the content.

Most of the time James takes pitches for the whole book from writers--they give him their idea and he works with them to deliver and make sure it fits the brand as much as it needs to.

When he commissions an idea he himself had he's usually pretty chill about changes the author wants. Like Red & Pleasant Land started out as an idea from James, he just had an idea of a girl with her legs spread on the cover and wanted it to just be called "Eat Me".
 
Like Red & Pleasant Land started out as an idea from James, he just had an idea of a girl with her legs spread on the cover and wanted it to just be called "Eat Me".
Jesus, he needs to thank his black metal gods that you were there for that one. Perhaps he should have chatted with you before putting out some of his recent releases. Imagine a world where Eldritch Cock sweeps the Ennies...
 
Jesus, he needs to thank his black metal gods that you were there for that one. Perhaps he should have chatted with you before putting out some of his recent releases. Imagine a world where Eldritch Cock sweeps the Ennies...

I think the company as a whole probably benefits from things like Eldritch Cock and Fuck For Satan even if they're not best-sellers--they remind the people who buy these things that even thought they're fancy hardcovers with sewn binding, whatever they're getting from LotFP isn't calculated to appeal to an audience but rather it's what some nutjob somewhere actually wanted to put out.

If people want to buy a game nobody involved actually liked or played, they know which companies to go to. And they are increasingly not going to them.

I also think there's some online marketing value in less-intelligent RPG people online going "Ew, Eldritch Cock no thank yewwww" and then all the people who read it going "Actually it's a pretty solid magic system...". Then the prude loses credibility and everyone has an opportunity to talk about how good the thing is. It's the Barney Rosset marketing style.
 
I think the company as a whole probably benefits from things like Eldritch Cock and Fuck For Satan even if they're not best-sellers--they remind the people who buy these things that even thought they're fancy hardcovers with sewn binding, whatever they're getting from LotFP isn't calculated to appeal to an audience but rather it's what some nutjob somewhere actually wanted to put out.
Well, it certainly builds a brand. And I'll never complain about Vaginas Are Magic!...first of all, getting a hardcover RPG book for Free RPG Day is awesome, and second, well, it's a lovely sentiment.
 
He doesn't much pay by the word, but gives a lump sum and sometimes a profit split.

I went to that link and its some looooong thread that I couldn't find any posts about money in.

I think it is way cool Raggi pays his peeps cool coin for their work. All I want to see is an example of the $$$$. Come on Zak, you talk about how great the money is compared to big bad companys that rip off writers. How about ONE example of the money for a book. I don't care if it is your book, any book, or something with the serial number filed off. Explain the money and not the ethos. You all on LotFP have the ethos rocking it. You all do great stuff. You say you pay great $$$. Sounds like you are stick'n it to the man. Why not show us with one book he numbers that made the author loads of coin. I have watched you with that drink in your hand at the ennies. Go on, show us how the $$$ can be that good.
 
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$400 in advance for a sandbox of about double the length of Blackmarsh. The project didn't work out on my end so I returned the advance. Nothing nefarious just I got a quarter of the way through and developed a bad case of writers block. The setting was to be based on a Fantasy Civil War Era (theirs) England.

The money beyond the advance was good enough that the grand total overcame my normal reluctance to work on things that I don't have a firm creative handle on.

He was very gracious about the whole thing.

Some samples

The Supernatural
This English Civil War is not quite the war we know from our history. In the myriad realms of possibilities, the war is fought in an England where magic is very much real. Largely the course of history has remained the same. With the help of the rituals performed by the state temples of Rome, Julius Caesar managed to conquer Gaul despite the spells of the druids. Everyone heard how a spell casted by one of Henry Tudor’s allied wizards downed the horse of Richard III and in the ensuing confusion won the battle of Bosworth Field. How Queen Elisabeth’s court magicians, led by John Dee, summon the storm that wrecked the Spanish Armada. In this world the Civil War is also a supernatural war fought between multiple factions each with their own vision of England.

The Hidden War
When Queen Elisabeth died, her successor King James I of England and VI of Scotland ascended to the throne. A pious man, John Dee and his successors were not welcomed in his court. But King James did not undo the peace between the mundane and supernatural. King James viewed himself as King of Great Britain and considered the faeries and other supernatural inhabitant his subjects along with the other inhabitants of England. He faithfully maintained his obligations under the peace for the entirety of his reign. His son, Charles likewise continued to uphold the peace during the early years of his reign. A job made considerably more difficult by the rise of Puritanism and their belief that everything supernatural was the work of the Devil.

The peace was not ended by the Puritans but by King Charles himself. In his rapacious need for more money Charles made the fateful decision to have the considerable wealth in the 13 caches dug up and put to use in the Royal Treasuries. The reaction of the Faerie courts and the supernatural world was immediate and they immediately set out to regain control of the night and in some cases the day as well.

Unfortunately the Magicians were shorthanded to deal with the outbreak of supernatural war. Decades of Royal neglect has left them few in numbers and low in resources. It did not help that many among the Puritan sects waded into the conflict declaring war not only on the supernatural but on the Magicians themselves. Led by witchhunters like Matthew Hopkins they wage a merciless war. Their goal is nothing short of the total eradication of the supernatural and magic in the name of the Lord.

By the spring of 1643, anarchy reigns not only in the mundane world but the supernatural world as well.

Chiltern Hills
These hills form a chalk escarpment stretching the 40 miles from Oxfordshire to Hertfordshire. Atop the ridge runs one of England's prehistoric highways, Ickneild Way. It is a favored route for faeries and the supernatural that travel across England. Traffic is heaviest in the winter when the fog wraps itself around the hills.

Cotswold Hills
Running along the Severn River, the escarpment of this hills form a rugged terrain noted for a yellow limestone prized through western England as building material. Numerous quarries dot the region. The local miners have forged an alliance with Mother Cuda the ruler of the Blue-Cap Dwarves. In exchange for the dwarves advice and help, the miners protect the remaining holds of the dwarves from prying eyes. Mother Cuda and the miners are both trying to stay neutral in both the Hidden War and the Civil War.


0101 Lost Parcel
Half-buried in the mud is a leather satchel. It bears no insignia, but looks to be of good quality. Inside there is a pouch with 100sp and a letter written in an almost unintelligible script. If the characters study it long enough they will decipher that the Hoarstone Church has been taken over by the seele. They have killed the priest and all the servants. Hoarstone Church lies 15 miles north (off map) in Shropshire near a stone circle known as the Hoarstones.

0105 Arthur's Stone
This old barrow is the entranceway to the realm of Alberich, King of the Black Mountain Dwarves. Their underground warren has tunnels throughout the hills south of the entrance. It is said that that they were the clan that forged Caladbolg, the Sword in the Stone used to prove Arthur's kingship.

The stone that the sword was pulled out of now sits as the keystone to the entrance of the barrow. It still bears a slot where Caladbolg was. A short sword, long sword, or two handed sword will fit snuggly into the slot. If the person has a true heart and makes his saving throw vs Magic, his weapon will be transformed into a +1 magic sword of the same type. The enchantment will last as long as the warrior's heart remain true.

1917 Wolf’s Head Manor
A crumbling manor house sits atop a hillock overlooking a dozen broken chimneys jutting up from the high grass and stunted trees. Locals have called this Wolf’s Head Manor because it has become a favorite place for outlaws to hide.

Currently is a small band of eight brigands are staying within the crumbling manor. They are poorly equipped and supplied. They are gaunt and sickly. None of them have slept much in the past few weeks since they have stayed here.
Beneath the manor, buried in the hillock is the fallen angel Asb’el. Seven prayer stones are buried within the hillock and each stone has a mithril thread tethered to Asb’el. Even if the prayer stones are found, it will take ingenuity and perseverance to shatter the stones.
 
How about ONE example of the money for a book..

I put this in the first thread where the question came up but I think for Red & Pleasant Land I got like a 1000-1500$ advance plus 15$ per copy (retails for 30$-ish) sold and the first print run was 2 or 3000 copies so that's 2000x15=30k + the advance. Can't complain.

I can't remember if its in its second print or not by now.

I have watched you with that drink in your hand at the ennies.
next time say hi.
 
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Hey Zak, just to compare, what’s the most you’ve sold a painting for and is there an average?
 
The mention of Mythras raises a related question: how much does the shift to POD affect economics and creator compensation for the hobby?
Doing a print run on an offset press incurs platemaking and press setup costs which can be significant, but per-copy is cheaper after that. However, you have to shell out for the whole print run up front. Back when I were a lad conventional wisdom was that the break even for doing a print run was normally somewhere about 1,000 copies or so - but obviously there are plenty of variables affecting that. Now that direct-to-plate imagesetting is more widespread I would expect pre-press costs to be lower than they were back in my day. Uphill both ways ...

Generally, the printer can squirrel away the plates and bring them out for subsequent runs without needing to recreate the plates - unless you print such a large run the plates wear out. However, in games I suspect the latter problem would be a good one to have.

Printing also gives you access to some higher quality options such as better paper, better bindings and better printed image quality. Modern xerographic technology is a lot better than it was in the 1990s when I was last involved in this sort of thing so the difference in quality is less pronounced than it was back then. Having said that, I got a POD rendition of the CP2020 rule book of DriveThruRPG and they had fairly obviously set the machine to be stingy with the toner.

I think that you would still want to bear your target medium in mind when specifying artwork for a book. Xerographic machines still appear to be rough enough to make halftones look a bit grotty in comparison to offset on a matt art stock. If I was designing a book for reproduction through that medium I would probably look to specify mainly line art for illustrations, avoiding renderings or other images heavily dependent on halftones. If I thought I could hit sales figures high enough to justify a print run then I might be a bit more flexible - but getting halftones to come out right on a press still appears to be something that requires a bit of skilled judgement.
 
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