Piracy, the Trove and how they affect the Hobby

[Bunch]

I think it's because of barrier of entry. How many people are going to scan the PDF? They don't want PDFs of their products- the courts just made it so people could do it.

I mean it seems crazy though that if I have a legal physical book and it is legal to scan your physical book that somehow it is illegal to have someone else's scan of their book. What's the real logic there? You are apparently entitled to a legal pdf if you make it yourself but downloading the identical thing is a crime? I mean I can pay someone to come to my house and work my scanner and that's legal. So really this is a crime against people without enough money not about morals.

 

[Bunch]

Basically in the vein of John Wick at times, an insufferable ass that you just want to walk away from.

And like Wick at some point he's going to be on the receiving end of his doppelganger. Someone will market like him or judge and damn others like him or clone his product and we'll see what he thinks.

 

[Gringnr]

Format piracy is something I don't feel guilty about. If I buy a physical book, and it doesn't come with a PDF, I'll download it.

I've also shared PDFs with my groups of games we are currently playing. They never run anything, and mine is their only group. I'm not worried about them using these PDFs elsewhere. Like I said, glass houses.

 

[Gringnr]

And like Wick at some point he's going to be on the receiving end of his doppelganger. Someone will market like him or judge and damn others like him or clone his product and we'll see what he thinks.

Doubtful. Why would someone need to clone a game that is currently available, well supported, and often cheap, if not free?

 

[Bunch]

Doubtful. Why would someone need to clone a game that is currently available, well supported, and often cheap, if not free?

Have you seen the OSR?

 

[Gringnr]

Have you seen the OSR?

True, but if they put their own spin on it, it's not the same thing. Delving Deeper is not Iron Falcon, is not FMAG, despite similarities. Most of the OSR isn't cloning 700-page tomes, either. It's possible. Sure.

 

[Teotwawki]

Argue all you like with Daniel's methods, you can't argue with the results. Dude is straight crushin' it.

Aside from the fact that, yes, anyone can legitimately argue with the results (despite your assessment of his allegedly crushin' it), what you imply here is that the end justifies the means?

 

[TristramEvans]

Daniel Fox has made money. He has used his position achieved from his success to harass people, promote hate, exploit minorities, and lie through his teeth while pursuing personal vendettas. The Trove still exists, it's just slightly less accessible via large search engines at the moment, as do hundreds of other places online with access to all the free RPG archived content one could ever imagine storing on a USB and never getting around to reading in their lifetime, and while we won't allow anyone to link to it here at The Pub, (basically to protect The Pub), I personally highly recommend going out and pirating anything Fox publishes, because....fuck that guy.

 

[Simon Hogwood]

Daniel Fox has made money. He has used his position achieved from his success to harass people, promote hate, exploit minorities, and lie through his teeth while pursuing personal vendettas. The Trove still exists, it's just slightly less accessible via large search engines at the moment, as do hundreds of other places online with access to all the free RPG archived content one could ever imagine in their lifetime, and while we won't allow anyone to link to it here at The Pub, basically only to protect The Pub, I personally highly recommend going out and pirating anything Fox publishes, because....fuck that guy.

RPG Privateering > RPG Piracy

 

[TristramEvans]

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

A lot of previously unavailable stuff (some of which I bought, scanned and shared myself) has become available. More will become available. And, as for the products in licensing Limbo, that is perhaps the most "justifiable" type of piracy in my book. A gray area at least. But then again, we got a Star Wars reprint.

On that, it's worth noting that sites like The Trove are generally despised by the preservation community. By putting everything up regardless of publication status, they draw undue attention onto the abandonware sites and for the most legitimate sites make negotiations with copyright holders way more difficult.

Look at the Spectrum emulation scene for the opposite extreme. Because World of Spectrum were dominant and tried to do everything properly, we have one of the very few totally legal emulators out there; the copyright holder has given permission. Not only that, but large numbers of games are available entirely legally because a) they asked the copyright holders politely, b) respected refusals, c) didn't ask people to give up their copyrights and d) instantly removed games if the status changed (normally because they were turned into phone apps).

That's less easy than The Trove's approach, but I'd argue it's a hell of a lot healthier in the long term. It's why pirate sites come and go, but WoS is now 26 years old and shows no sign of stopping.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Daniel Fox has made money. He has used his position achieved from his success to harass people, promote hate, exploit minorities, and lie through his teeth while pursuing personal vendettas. The Trove still exists, it's just slightly less accessible via large search engines at the moment, as do hundreds of other places online with access to all the free RPG archived content one could ever imagine storing on a USB and ever getting around to reading in their lifetime, and while we won't allow anyone to link to it here at The Pub, (basically only to protect The Pub), I personally highly recommend going out and pirating anything Fox publishes, because....fuck that guy.

I don't think that's helpful, unless you're willing to say that anyone that dislikes a publisher you do like should do the same.

(If you dislike Fox that much, I'm not sure why you'd want to give him the moral high ground, apart from anything else).

 

[TristramEvans]

I don't think that's helpful, unless you're willing to say that anyone that dislikes a publisher you do like should do the same.

Not sure what you mean by that; I'm going to say people should do things if I think they should do them.

If I think a publisher or creator is awesome, I'll say that people should give them money.

If I think a publisher or creator is horrible, I'll say people shouldn't give them money.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Not sure what you mean by that; I'm going to say people should do things if I think they should do them.

If I think a publisher or creator is awesome, I'll say that people should give them money.

If I think a publisher or creator is horrible, I'll say people shouldn't give them money.

No problem with the latter.

But I think The Trove's approach is bad for the hobby in general.

So I think it's better to go "don't buy Fox's stuff" if you don't like him rather than "if you don't like Fox you should pirate his stuff". Partly because I think the latter encourages an approach that has general ramifications way beyond the scope of any individual. If someone goes to The Trove looking for Zweihander, they'll also quite likely pick up games from people you want to see supported.

(Although I will admit I did pirate FATAL, but it's hardly commercially available).

 

[Gringnr]

Aside from the fact that, yes, anyone can legitimately argue with the results (despite your assessment of his allegedly crushin' it), what you imply here is that the end justifies the means?

No, not exactly. But Fox has been successful by any metric. If you have something besides snarky asides to support a different position (which I doubt), by all means, please explain how Fox has not been successful. I'm all ears.

 

[TristramEvans]

No problem with the latter.

But I think The Trove's approach is bad for the hobby in general.

So I think it's better to go "don't buy Fox's stuff" if you don't like him rather than "if you don't like Fox you should pirate his stuff". Partly because I think the latter encourages an approach that has general ramifications way beyond the scope of any individual. If someone goes to The Trove looking for Zweihander, they'll also quite likely pick up games from people you want to see supported.

But I'm not demanding that anyone support the creators I support. I don't think it's the either/or scenario presented, really. 99% of people who will download a free pdf, I don't think would be paying for the product if they couldn't get a free pdf.

 

[CRKrueger]

I think a lot of piracy would be ended simply by better previews on DTRPG, or summaries on websites, etc. Sure there might be people running a full-blown FFGSW campaign using 40 pirated PDFs, but I don’t think it’s too common. Now FFG and WotC deserve every dollar they lost to pirates because of their refusal to release PDFs. In FFG‘s case it was an ancient license issue but they could have tried for the license to do RPG PDFs only for duration of the main license.

I think a large portion of piracy is for reading enjoyment and try before you buy.

 

[Gringnr]

Daniel Fox has made money. He has used his position achieved from his success to harass people, promote hate, exploit minorities, and lie through his teeth while pursuing personal vendettas.

The only part of that I agree with is that Fox has made money. The rest I can't really argue with you for fear of violating the Pub's "big" rule. Which means that either you're taking advantage of your mod status, or your Jimmies are so rustled that you're not thinking clearly. I'm gonna go with the latter, especially what with you openly telling people on a forum that you're a moderator of to pirate shit because you have a personal beef with the author. I like RPGPundit about as much as I like hemmorhoids. I've never told people to pirate his shit. Get a grip. You're acting like a clown.

 

[Endless Flight]

The Lucasfilm digital license is so 1990s. They need to seriously update it, not just for RPGs.

 

[Bunch]

The only part of that I agree with is that Fox has made money. The rest I can't really argue with you for fear of violating the Pub's "big" rule. Which means that either you're taking advantage of your mod status, or your Jimmies are so rustled that you're not thinking clearly. I'm gonna go with the latter, especially what with you openly telling people on a forum that you're a moderator of to pirate shit because you have a personal beef with the author. I like RPGPundit about as much as I like hemmorhoids. I've never told people to pirate his shit. Get a grip. You're acting like a clown.

He's banned on the far right, the far left and the no politics sites. I mean that's a trio that could barely agree a rainbow is made up of colors and they all agree he's an asshat.

I agree he's been successful but I don't agree the behavior he's used to get there is one I want people to emulate.

 

[TristramEvans]

The only part of that I agree with is that Fox has made money. The rest I can't really argue with you for fear of violating the Pub's "big" rule. Which means that either you're taking advantage of your mod status, or your Jimmies are so rustled that you're not thinking clearly.

All of that behaviour I've either personally witnessed or had it described by someone I trust enough to accept their word as proof. I'm not sure what political angle you have on any of that, but it's irrelevant to anything I mentioned.

I'm gonna go with the latter, especially what with you openly telling people on a forum that you're a moderator of to pirate shit because you have a personal beef with the author.

Yeah, I have no problem with that. I'm openly telling people to pirate Daniel Fox's products, rather than letting a red dime go his way. Preferably pirate it and share, just to erase it afterwords, because you don't need that shitty system in your lives. And I stand by that recommendation.

I like RPGPundit about as much as I like hemmorhoids. I've never told people to pirate his shit.

I'd never tell anyone to pirate Pundit's shit either. Mainly because for whatever personal issues I have with the man, I've never seen him or heard from a trustworthy source he's done anything like what Fox has done.

 

[Gringnr]

He's banned on the far right, the far left and the no politics sites. I mean that's a trio that could barely agree a rainbow is made up of colors and they all agree he's an asshat.

I agree he's been successful but I don't agree the behavior he's used to get there is one I want people to emulate.

He's admitted as much himself, as far as the endless hawking of his own products goes. As for the rest, I'd either say that the accusations are overblown, or flat-out incorrect. But, again, I can't get into specifics, because I'm not a moderator.

 

[Gringnr]

All of that behaviour I've either personally witnessed or had it described by someone I trust enough to accept their word as proof. I'm not sure what political angle you have on any of that, but it's irrelevant to anything I mentioned.

What political angle "I" have? Excuse me? You honestly trynna tell me that if I try to rebut claims of Fox (in your words) "exploiting minorities" and "spreading hate", I won't be violating the Pub's one rule? Is that the shit you're really trying to sell here? You honestly trynna tell me (or anyone else) that just because you "saw" or "heard" it, that it ain't "political?" Bro, if that's the yardstick by which we judge the Pub's "one" rule, convos around here bout ta get a lot more interesting. But no, you absolutely know this is untrue. Yet you still typed it and hit "post". Wow.

 

[Gringnr]

I think a lot of piracy would be ended simply by better previews on DTRPG, or summaries on websites, etc. Sure there might be people running a full-blown FFGSW campaign using 40 pirated PDFs, but I don’t think it’s too common. Now FFG and WotC deserve every dollar they lost to pirates because of their refusal to release PDFs. In FFG‘s case it was an ancient license issue but they could have tried for the license to do RPG PDFs only for duration of the main license.

I think a large portion of piracy is for reading enjoyment and try before you buy.

A well-written an objective review is worth its weight in gold. If it's well thought out, and properly descriptive, it can tell prospective buyers whether they might like something, even if they didn't. Having said that, I don't often leave reviews.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

A well-written an objective review is worth its weight in gold. If it's well thought out, and properly descriptive, it can tell prospective buyers whether they might like something, even if they didn't. Having said that, I don't often leave reviews.

It'd help if Drivethru didn't ban publishers from leaving reviews. I understand the reason, but in an industry with so many people who've published at least a handful of hobby products it overly restricts things.

 

[Bunch]

He's admitted as much himself, as far as the endless hawking of his own products goes. As for the rest, I'd either say that the accusations are overblown, or flat-out incorrect. But, again, I can't get into specifics, because I'm not a moderator.

Fair enough but for me if you have a tendency for a behaviour that gets you banned at that wide a variety of sites the individual facts are actually less important to me. It's hard to get all those groups to agree you are unlikely to be able to follow whatever rules they have and see a need to remove you. It becomes a pattern. There's an element of failure to respect others opinions beyond your own. Even the Trove action if true is essentially him setting himself up as the arbiter for everyone and white knighting for "The Good of everyone!".


I don't advocate pirating his stuff.

 

[Gringnr]

If I moderated a forum I wouldn't advocate the pirating of a product sold on one of our advertisers but that's just me.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I don't think it's the either/or scenario presented, really. 99% of people who will download a free pdf, I don't think would be paying for the product if they couldn't get a free pdf.

I'd have to dig out my uni research on this, but I did a deep dive into the subject of music piracy.

Piracy = Lost Sale wasn't borne out by the evidence, but the effect was significant by the data I cold find. (Moreso then I expected when I started the research).

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

If I moderated a forum I wouldn't advocate the pirating of a product sold on one of our advertisers but that's just me.

*Shrug* If you object to Tristram's position I suggest pirating his games.

 

[TristramEvans]

What political angle "I" have? Excuse me? You honestly trynna tell me that if I try to rebut claims of Fox (in your words) "exploiting minorities" and "spreading hate", I won't be violating the Pub's one rule? Is that the shit you're really trying to sell here? You honestly trynna tell me (or anyone else) that just because you "saw" or "heard" it, that it ain't "political?" Bro, if that's the yardstick by which we judge the Pub's "one" rule, convos around here bout ta get a lot more interesting. But no, you absolutely know this is untrue. Yet you still typed it and hit "post". Wow.

Um, no. I'm not saying "because I saw it, it's not political". I'm saying that we have never allowed anyone to hide behind the "No Politics" rule as a way to excuse horrible behaviour such as harassment, and as I've stated in multiple instances before, we don't consider certain ideologies that spread hate, including racism, sexism, and other -isms as legitimate political positions. In other words, it is not "political" to condemn racism, harassment, abuse, or any other immoral behaviour of that type here at the Pub.

Now, as I said previously, everything on that list that I presented regarding Daniel Fox, I either personally witnessed or (in one case) heard from a source I consider trustworthy enough to stake my reputation behind.

What we both know you cannot do is prove me wrong, so It sounds like, instead, you want to try and make an ideological defense of Fox's actions and are claiming the No Politics rule is preventing you from doing so. I'll tell you flat out right now, there is no excuse, political or otherwise, that I would accept for the dishonestly, exploitation and abuse of other human beings I've seen Fox engage in, so even if you didn't feel unfairly restricted by the Pub's rule in making your case, it would not ultimately matter; I'm not concerned with Fox having differing political views from me, I'm condemning his behaviour.

So really the only rebuttal you have is to claim that I am lying about what I've seen, and at that point obviously there is no further discussion or debate possible on the subject.

 

[Endless Flight]

I placed an administrative note in the first post of this thread to clarify the Pub’s official stance on piracy if anybody wasn’t aware.

 

[Gringnr]

Um, no. I'm not saying "because I saw it, it's not political". I'm saying that we have never allowed anyone to hide behind the "No Politics" rule as a way to excuse horrible behaviour such as harassment, and as I've stated in multiple instances before, we don't consider certain ideologies that spread hate, including racism, sexism, and other -isms as legitimate political positions. In other words, it is not "political" to condemn racism, harassment, abuse, or any other immoral behaviour of that type here at the Pub.

Now, as I said previously, everything on that list that I presented regarding Daniel Fox, I either personally witnessed or (in one case) heard from a source I consider trustworthy enough to stake my reputation behind.

What we both know you cannot do is prove me wrong, so It sounds like, instead, you want to try and make an ideological defense of Fox's actions and are claiming the No Politics rule is preventing you from doing so. I'll tell you flat out right now, there is no excuse, political or otherwise, that I would accept for the dishonestly, exploitation and abuse of other human beings I've seen Fox engage in, so even if you didn't feel unfairly restricted by the Pub's rule in making your case, it would not ultimately matter; I'm not concerned with Fox having differing political views from me, I'm condemning his behaviour.

So really the only rebuttal you have is to claim that I am lying about what I've seen, and at that point obviously there is no further discussion or debate possible on the subject.

How can I "prove you wrong" when you've made no specific allegations? Let's hear some examples, then. I'm not trying to make an ideological defense of anything. You've as good as called me a liar, so, well played. You wanted an argument, you got it. How about some actual substance, not "I heard he exploited minorities." Yeah? Where, when and how?

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

If any harassment claim is about third parties (and if it's what I'm thinking of it definitely is) can I *strongly* suggest that if you don't have their permission to publically discuss it it's not something to talk about in the open. Especially if they've chosen not to do so themselves. There are some things better done by PM.

 

[TristramEvans]

Yeah, I don't intend to go into specifics, nor name any names - it's not my place to drag anyone else into debates or conversations. I stand by my statements as my personal experience and thoughts on Fox, and one can believe I was being dishonest or not at their discretion, that's as far as I'll take it here.

 

[Bunch]

I'd have to dig out my uni research on this, but I did a deep dive into the subject of music piracy.

Piracy = Lost Sale wasn't borne out by the evidence, but the effect was significant by the data I cold find. (Moreso then I expected when I started the research).

I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying the piracy didnt equate 1:1 as a lost sale but did as a different ration like 10 downloads = 1 lost sale or something else?

 

[Gringnr]

Fair enough but for me if you have a tendency for a behaviour that gets you banned at that wide a variety of sites the individual facts are actually less important to me. It's hard to get all those groups to agree you are unlikely to be able to follow whatever rules they have and see a need to remove you. It becomes a pattern. There's an element of failure to respect others opinions beyond your own. Even the Trove action if true is essentially him setting himself up as the arbiter for everyone and white knighting for "The Good of everyone!".


I don't advocate pirating his stuff.

I can understand this. It's kind of like the Zak S. thing, if you spend so much time being a thorn in peoples' sides, they're usually gonna believe the worst about you. Like when Zak won one of his lawsuits, then rushed to Twitter expecting open arms, and everyone was like, "Still hate you, fuck off." Pundit, Zak, GMS and (though for different reasons IMO) Daniel have deffo shot themselves in the foot in that way. They're not the only ones. Just a few of the more notable names.

 

[Trippy]

I have mixed feelings on piracy, I think.

I used to get really irritated by anti-piracy warnings on DVDs I had purchased. This was not least because I had legally purchased them (so why lecture me?!), but also because it really was just an industry problem, not a consumer problem. In the case of big Hollywood movies, or big mainstream pop acts, I don’t really care if they have a few dollars scraped off the top of their profits. In the case of smaller independent movies and music acts, I tend to have more sympathy - however, it’s not usually these that end up suing anybody.

RPG books tend a lot more towards the smaller, independent category, so a) they tend to have my sympathies more but b) they are not usually in an effective position to be able to protect their IPs online. As such, it really comes from the attitude of the wider community to take a moral stance on the matter.

In some cases it is a shame that some titles are only available illegally at all, of course. I wish some companies would be more proactive about letting older editions get printed again - like FFGs did when they re-released a commemorative edition of the original Star Wars - which would quash the illegal market a bit. In some cases, like with WotC and 5E, I wish they would release any PDFs at all. For some small companies too, having the exposure of their products out would make more business sense than selling a handful of PDFs for a price. It shouldn’t be The Trove’s or any other unconnected company’s decision to make though. I really detest the sense of entitlement about getting stuff for nothing that does seem to circle the hobby at times.

 

[CRKrueger]

It'd help if Drivethru didn't ban publishers from leaving reviews. I understand the reason, but in an industry with so many people who've published at least a handful of hobby products it overly restricts things.

Agreed, but the industry is also pretty damn incestuous, so you’d have a few different groups gladhanding each other.

 

[Gringnr]

Agreed, but the industry is also pretty damn incestuous, so you’d have a few different groups gladhanding each other.

Yep, amateur "erotica" writers on Amazon do this all the time.

 

[Dammit Victor]

I pirate extensively; if I had to pay the full fine for every RPG book whose copyright I am currently violating, it'd be several times the annual revenue of the entire industry. (While I am admitting to felonies, I am not committing any of them in the United States.) I am undecided on the matter of whether the piracy of individual books benefits the author/publisher of those books, but the only books I pirate are by authors and publishers I wish to support-- or who don't need/want my support-- and the vast majority of my RPG expenditures go to authors and publishers whose works I have already pirated. If it weren't for piracy, I'd spend a lot less money supporting the industry, and I'm betting my moral character on my conviction that piracy-- as a whole-- economically benefits the industry as a whole.

Personally, next to my hope that I eventually publish something is my hope that whatever I publish gets pirated. I have alerts set up on the places I use to let me know if/when it happens, and a bottle of champagne reserved for the occasion.