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A real interesting "what if?" is that Pazio themselves have said that if WOtC had just been a bit more johnny on the spot with the 4e SRD - Pazio would absolutely have been a 4e D&D 3pp of adventure paths and content...

Makes one wonder how much longer 4e would have gone on with Pazio fully supporting that edition of the game..

That is a real interesting "What if?". Paizo's presentation is top notch and they have very regular releases so support would have been heavier.
 
It seems like it's easy to make money publishing RPGs, what with the barriers to entry being extremely low, but that making a living is a different thing altogether.
That is not a new thing in the RPG industry. What changed is the nature of what one has to do to make the attempt.
 
That is a real interesting "What if?". Paizo's presentation is top notch and they have very regular releases so support would have been heavier.
My guess it would have taken a year or two longer but 4e would have fallen out of favor. The presentation was a one-note wonder of fantasy superheroics 24/7. Paizo would have delayed it by making some interesting fantasy superheroics as adventure paths but folks would tire of it.
 
My impression is that Paizo appealed to people already familiar with D&D, particularly 3e, but is largely unknown outside of that niche. Few if any new players were brought into the game by Paizo.
 
But hasn't that pretty much always been the case? At least in my experience, the current flavor of D&D has always been the most popular game wherever I've been, though there have been isolated times in my life when other games have also been very popular among the people I've known (Palladium in junior high/high school, and White Wolf in college). It probably varies from person to person, but at least for me, that aspect of gaming hasn't really changed.

Yes, it has always been the case. 100%

RPG's are a niche hobby. And D&D's success has always been an outlier in that regard.

All I'm saying is that that hurdle of 'popularity' to get players to try out new games was a bit easier when D&D was not as ascendant as it currently is.


It's all a bunch of "sky is falling" over stuff that has just always been true. There has always been D&D(and variants, like Pathfinder), and everybody else. White Wolf is the only company that ever came close, and I don't think they ever overtook D&D either.

Who said the sky was falling?

I simply said that the RPG hobby was more dynamic when the #2 RPG was not a D&D derivative than it is now.

I don't think that the sheer number of RPG's on offer necessarily makes the RPG hobby more dynamic.

It just means that there is more 'stuff'.

It's so easy to publish that anyone with a mind to do so can put out their game. So what?

Where's their player base? How big of a network effect have they created?


The fact is that roleplaying game hobby far larger in absolute terms now it than it was a couple of years ago. Hell even 4e got more people playing. And there isn't enough "collectors" to account for that large of a bump over that length of time.

Of course the hobby is larger. The overall population has grown, and people who were young in the 80's, 90's and early 00's are now adults with disposable income.

I find your fantasy grounds graphs very interesting.

If one's measuring the network effect you can see by their graphs that nearly every non-D&D category has lost massive market share to D&D and it's clone.

The growth of non-D&D based games is laughable in comparison.

Half of the games listed on the first chart are D&D. One third on the second.

On the second chart even older editions of D&D do better than WFRP and that game has a new edition out!


But... the underlying economics has changed leaving companies with salaried employees hard pressed to remain profitable and people employed in trying to keep up against the legions of other authors and groups putting out material on their own.

Complete agreement on this.

Which is why I think that it is sad that D&D's Clone and 5e/D&D 3pp now take up the top spots that alternatives to D&D used to occupy.

It goes back to your mention about communication to let people know about other RPG alternatives:


The solution for the hobby is simply better communication about where to find stuff. Not worry about the fact the latest edition or version D&D is still the elephant in the room.

That communication is made much easier if the #2-3 RPG's are not D&D; As there would be readily available and visible alternatives that are easy to point to with big established player networks that make it easy for someone looking beyond D&D to find a game.

That's all I'm contending.

My point isn't that D&D is as big as it is.

It is that the lack of real non-D&D contenders makes that 'communication' to new players harder than it otherwise was in the past.

(In D&D/PF/5e 3pp defense; It is not their fault that all the non-D&D alternatives mismanaged themselves into a niche also-ran status...)


You are commenting on what people are posting in RPG forums. This means that they are willing to use the internet in pursuit of their RPG hobby. This means the problem is likely not finding the players but a lack of knowledge on where to look.

And therein lies the rub. Looking takes effort. Looking is 'work'.

You are expecting casual people new to the hobby to 'work' for their entertainment.

And like I said earlier: They Don't.

Most gamers do not go out of their way for anything; they talk about what they talk about because it got shoved into their face by virtue of being the mainstream RPG thing, and anything that isn't shoved in their face might as well not exist, and are completely incurious about looking for anything else.

Most gamers don't like to 'work' for their entertainment; they like to just sit down and play. The game that gives them the best odds of being able to do that is the one with the dominant network effect. Once they find a game that allows them to just sit down and play, that satisfaction is met. End. Of. Search.

Because most gamers don't like to 'work' for their entertainment; they aren't curious, so they don't seek things out. Which means that if you don't toil to thrust what you have to offer into their faces, then they will not even consider the possibility that an alternative even exists.

In my opinion; this is why for non-D&D RPG's; Public visibility, and having a strong established player network effect matters.
 
Idk man, D&D is to the RPG field what a game like Magic: The Gathering is to the wider board/card game field.

Magic is a lifestyle game. A lot of people who play it just don't play any other game. Their hobby isn't "board/card games" it is "MtG". D&D is the same.

But where I'm kind of meh on your thought is this idea that every game needs to be a lifestyle game to be successful. I find that people who play "RPGs" as a hobby rather than just playing "D&D" as a hobby, don't marry themselves to one game. They play a lot of variety. No one game has to be the be all, end all for them.

Did there used to be more games that were their own hobby in and of themselves? Sure, World of Darkness was the biggest example.

Does that make the hobby better? I don't really think so. I would rather see tons and tons of games that set out to do specific things and fill specific niches, which is what we have now.
 
Also this whole "player network" stuff you keep harping on about: Completely irrelevant to be honest. I can find players for pretty much any game in existence if I want to. Who cares that there are 100 or 1,000,000 people playing a game any given day. That means nothing to me, as long as I can get a game together for what I want to play.
 
All I'm saying is that that hurdle of 'popularity' to get players to try out new games was a bit easier when D&D was not as ascendant as it currently is.

Are we talking about players who only started with 5E, though, or players who were in the hobby before it?

I agree that there are quite a few players who aren't interested in anything besides 5E, but at least in my experience, everyone I've met who played RPGs pre-5E will still play other RPGs given the chance. I haven't met anyone who went from playing a range of RPGs to going 5E only with no interest in anything else. But others may have had different experiences.
 
I actually agree with both sides of the argument in different ways. I do think people played a wider breadth of systems thirty years ago but it is a golden age in terms of variety today. If you want something you can usually find it.
 
There's never been a time (from my subjective experience anyway), when the barrier between D&D and the rest of the hobby has been as hard as it is now.

I used to expect that to fracture somewhat but I'm less sure now that it will as it's not being reinforced by gaming experiences and frustrations but by the activities of a wider fandom that's only tangentially about actual table top play. These days I increasingly see 5e as basically a separate hobby from what I do.

In terms of the dynamism of the hobby as whole, I still don't think we're anywhere close to the creativity of the 90s in terms of settings and ideas, although we are on the upswing from where we were in the 2000s when it seemed that all there was was an endless dreary series of licensed games and new systems that just tinkered with mechanics purely for their own sake.
 
Yes, it has always been the case. 100%

RPG's are a niche hobby. And D&D's success has always been an outlier in that regard.

All I'm saying is that that hurdle of 'popularity' to get players to try out new games was a bit easier when D&D was not as ascendant as it currently is.





Where's their player base? How big of a network effect have they created?


If one's measuring the network effect you can see by their graphs that nearly every non-D&D category has lost massive market share to D&D and it's clone.
They are up in absolute numbers.


The growth of non-D&D based games is laughable in comparison.
Double or triple what what they were at a couple of years ago is not laughable.

Half of the games listed on the first chart are D&D. One third on the second.

On the second chart even older editions of D&D do better than WFRP and that game has a new edition out!

You do understand the difference between a percentage and a total right? Call of Cthulu has four times the number of sessions it had in January of 2019. GURPS double. Rolemaster nearly 8 times. Savage Worlds nearly double. Traveller TEN! times. Vampire over 9 times. Warhammer Fantasy declined.

Let's look at what the dictionary says about vibrancy. Mmm, four definitions. Seems like the relevant one is

1658015104089.png
(shrug) seems like there is a lot of energy and enthusiasm for alternatives to D&D.
 

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Also this whole "player network" stuff you keep harping on about: Completely irrelevant to be honest. I can find players for pretty much any game in existence if I want to. Who cares that there are 100 or 1,000,000 people playing a game any given day. That means nothing to me, as long as I can get a game together for what I want to play.
In the end this is where I’m at and to be honest I have been very lucky, outside of one session each of Adventures in Middle Earth and Beowulf Age Heroes I have zero experience with 5E. I have never had a problem finding people locally in Northern Virginia in the late 00’s or online since that time to play whatever game had captured my interest at the time. I play more often then I DM but even when I have trotted out oddball games to run players inevitably appear amongst the groups I tend to socialize with.

I have online friends that have had issues with finding in person players for games outside 5E but they are far from the majority on the online circles I move in which stretch from Japan, New Zealand and Australia to Europe and the UK to North and South America.
 
I don’t see D&D going anywhere anytime soon. Heck, the not at all anticipated 5E version of Doctor Who comes out Tuesday. It solely exists because they know it will sell since a perfectly fine Doctor Who game currently exists.
 
But where I'm kind of meh on your thought is this idea that every game needs to be a lifestyle game to be successful. I find that people who play "RPGs" as a hobby rather than just playing "D&D" as a hobby, don't marry themselves to one game. They play a lot of variety. No one game has to be the be all, end all for them.

Whoa there! I said no such thing.

Playing RPG's is a hobby - all this lifestyle brand BS can go %$#@ itself.

All I have claimed is that other games with large established player networks make it easier for new people in the hobby to see alternatives to D&D and get a game.

A player network does not a lifestyle brand make. It just means that it is easier to get a game.


Did there used to be more games that were their own hobby in and of themselves? Sure, World of Darkness was the biggest example.

Does that make the hobby better? I don't really think so. I would rather see tons and tons of games that set out to do specific things and fill specific niches, which is what we have now.

I think that in terms of visibility and ease of getting a game for people new to the hobby; something like what WoD used to be is a better bridge to finding out about alternatives to D&D than what we have right now. Which for people new to the RPG hobby is basically: figure it out for yourself.


Also this whole "player network" stuff you keep harping on about: Completely irrelevant to be honest. I can find players for pretty much any game in existence if I want to. Who cares that there are 100 or 1,000,000 people playing a game any given day. That means nothing to me, as long as I can get a game together for what I want to play.

The classic "I got mine" argument...

For people like you and me who have groups willing to try different things, or that know where to go to find interested players - we are complete outliers in the wider RPG hobby.

For newcomers to the hobby, or those looking to get into something not-D&D for the first time: The network effect of non-D&D games matters.


They are up in absolute numbers.
Double or triple what what they were at a couple of years ago is not laughable.

You do understand the difference between a percentage and a total right? Call of Cthulu has four times the number of sessions it had in January of 2019. GURPS double. Rolemaster nearly 8 times. Savage Worlds nearly double. Traveller TEN! times. Vampire over 9 times. Warhammer Fantasy declined.

Let's look at what the dictionary says about vibrancy.
(shrug) seems like there is a lot of energy and enthusiasm for alternatives to D&D.

Four, eight or nine times of tiny compared to the ridiculously exponential growth of D&D games is just more of tiny.

How many of those are people transitioning to a new game from 5e vs. those just transitioning to online play? That is the real metric to see if how much of the rise of D&D is truly trickling-down to the rest of the hobby.


As to "vibrancy" - The word I used over and over again in my posts was: Dynamic

Let's look at what the dictionary says:
dy·nam·ic
adjective
1.
(of a process or system) characterized by constant change, activity, or progress.
"a dynamic economy"


D&D, D&D's clone, and more D&D: And yeah, some non D&D RPG's are seeing a bit of activity.

One out of three ain't bad I guess.


I don’t see D&D going anywhere anytime soon.

I agree.
 
Whoa there! I said no such thing.

Playing RPG's is a hobby - all this lifestyle brand BS can go %$#@ itself.

All I have claimed is that other games with large established player networks make it easier for new people in the hobby to see alternatives to D&D and get a game.

A player network does not a lifestyle brand make. It just means that it is easier to get a game.

Dude, games don't get massive player networks unless they are lifestyle games. That is just the fact of it.

What games other than lifestyle games have EVER had "player networks" of significant size?

The classic "I got mine" argument...

For people like you and me who have groups willing to try different things, or that know where to go to find interested players - we are complete outliers in the wider RPG hobby.

For newcomers to the hobby, or those looking to get into something not-D&D for the first time: The network effect of non-D&D games matters.

No the argument is that it is all out there for anyone who wants it. With modern technology, anyone can go out there and start a game with almost any system they wanted and have a game going.

This isn't some specific thing to me. Anyone could do it. The point of "it doesn't matter how many people are playing it at any one time" is that it is irrelevant to whether anyone could get a game going if they wanted to.
 
I think the situation is a lot better for people who really want to GM a game than it is for people who really want to be players in a particular niche game.
Not trying to be snarky but to the best of my recollection it has always been this way. The surefire way to play in a niche game is to run the goddamn thing yourself.
 
Not trying to be snarky but to the best of my recollection it has always been this way. The surefire way to play in a niche game is to run the goddamn thing yourself.
Depends how niche though.

There was a time when it was fairly easy to find a game of Legend of the Five Rings, or Vampire or other White Wolf games or Warhammer, Deadlands etc.

I don't know how it true it is, but my subjective impression is that there used to be a kind of second tier of games that has largely dropped out of the market, or at least to a much smaller share of the market.
 
Not trying to be snarky but to the best of my recollection it has always been this way. The surefire way to play in a niche game is to run the goddamn thing yourself.

Fist time I played a non-D&D game (Robotech) it was someone else GMing it, and I was barely even familiar with the series. My regular group at the time was just playing this thing so I tagged along. Second time as well and the game was a complete new and unknown thing at the time (RIFTS). Only time I managed to play a WoD game (Werewolf) it was someone else GMing. Fist time I played Shadowrun it was also someone else GMing, though, technically that was a heavily modified version, cuz that group couldn't understand anything but Basic D&D, so the GM had to homebrew something. I also played Palladium RPG with random group I ran into once.

Most of this was in the early 90s (Werewolf was early 2000's) and RPGs are extremely niche and barely known where I live. These days everything is card games, board games and 5e.
 
As to "vibrancy" - The word I used over and over again in my posts was: Dynamic

I was referring this statement you made in another thread.

The hobby as a whole was more vibrant when the number two RPG was not only a different system, but a completely different genre of play (VtM/WoD.)

Which I felt was on point for this thread because of a similar statement to the one below.
I think that in terms of visibility and ease of getting a game for people new to the hobby; something like what WoD used to be is a better bridge to finding out about alternatives to D&D than what we have right now. Which for people new to the RPG hobby is basically: figure it out for yourself.
Since the mid 90s the problem was more about realizing that roleplaying games could be played with pen & paper rather than as a computer game.
But today if you search for roleplaying games. You get this with the fifth entry listing roleplaying games that are NOT D&D.

1658146875987.png



Four, eight or nine times of tiny compared to the ridiculously exponential growth of D&D games is just more of tiny.
Worryng about what the other guys does is a surefire way of driving one's business into the ground. Worrying about what one can do to improve their own products is much more productive. And from the few numbers we have it looks like a lot of companies and author who are NOT wizards are making D&D material are doing much better today than they were two years ago.



How many of those are people transitioning to a new game from 5e vs. those just transitioning to online play? That is the real metric to see if how much of the rise of D&D is truly trickling-down to the rest of the hobby.
We know this because revenues and sales are up for companies who are publishing RPGs that are not D&D. There are multiple data sources that show that the RPG industry has grown enormonously in the past three years not just D&D. You seem to be under the impression that it is a zero sum game here. That a dollar spent on 5e is somehow means that a dollar is not spent on a non-D&D RPG. The reality is that the hobbyists are not one note wonders. Many have RPGs other than D&D and play them. Learning about them through the network of people who play RPGs including D&D 5e players. Or increasingly through reasearch on their own through the internet.

Let's look at what the dictionary says:
dy·nam·ic
adjective
1.
(of a process or system) characterized by constant change, activity, or progress.
"a dynamic economy"


D&D, D&D's clone, and more D&D: And yeah, some non D&D RPG's are seeing a bit of activity.

One out of three ain't bad I guess.

So going with dynamic here then I would characterize as the current hobby and industry as very dynamic considering the number of titles avaliable and number of publishers for RPGs. The only problem you are having here is that D&D 5e, Pathfinder, Goodman Games 5e line are occupying the top three sales spots according to ICv2 ranking.

All other measure that 3pp market has never had a greater number of players, more titles avaliables, more type of RPGs avaliable, more readily avaliable than now. Sounds like we are in the midst of another golden age for all RPGs.
 
Dude, games don't get massive player networks unless they are lifestyle games. That is just the fact of it.

What games other than lifestyle games have EVER had "player networks" of significant size?

You'll have to define what you mean by "lifestyle game" then. We are obviously thinking of two separate things here as I do not agree.


No the argument is that it is all out there for anyone who wants it. With modern technology, anyone can go out there and start a game with almost any system they wanted and have a game going.

This isn't some specific thing to me. Anyone could do it. The point of "it doesn't matter how many people are playing it at any one time" is that it is irrelevant to whether anyone could get a game going if they wanted to.

Here is our disconnect.

You are talking about an existing hobbyist, or theoretical "anyone" who is willing to put forth some effort.

I've been talking about casual players new to RPG's who do not work for their entertainment.


There was a time when it was fairly easy to find a game of Legend of the Five Rings, or Vampire or other White Wolf games or Warhammer, Deadlands etc.

I don't know how it true it is, but my subjective impression is that there used to be a kind of second tier of games that has largely dropped out of the market, or at least to a much smaller share of the market.

I basically agree.

It's a shame that that 2nd tier network has largely dropped from where they were. But like I said earlier; it's also not D&D's fault.


We know this because revenues and sales are up for companies who are publishing RPGs that are not D&D. There are multiple data sources that show that the RPG industry has grown enormonously in the past three years not just D&D. You seem to be under the impression that it is a zero sum game here.
So going with dynamic here then I would characterize as the current hobby and industry as very dynamic considering the number of titles avaliable and number of publishers for RPGs. The only problem you are having here is that D&D 5e, Pathfinder, Goodman Games 5e line are occupying the top three sales spots according to ICv2 ranking.

All other measure that 3pp market has never had a greater number of players, more titles avaliables, more type of RPGs avaliable, more readily avaliable than now. Sounds like we are in the midst of another golden age for all RPGs.

It's not a zero sum game. But market share is still market share.

You are otherwise basically saying the same thing here for the 3rd time.

Here is our disconnect: You are talking about quantity, and availability for people already in the hobby. I have never said those are bad things.

I am talking about how visibility for non D&D based RPG's is best enabled through large, active, player networks.

Which makes it much easier for people new to the hobby to recognize and find alternatives to D&D with no effort.

I think that having near zero effort, visible alternatives to D&D would be a better overall situation for the hobby because it significantly lowers the bar for people that might be interested in playing other games to find them.
 
Depends how niche though.

There was a time when it was fairly easy to find a game of Legend of the Five Rings, or Vampire or other White Wolf games or Warhammer, Deadlands etc.

I don't know how it true it is, but my subjective impression is that there used to be a kind of second tier of games that has largely dropped out of the market, or at least to a much smaller share of the market.

I think the chances of being able to find one of those games varied a lot, though. I don't think it was universal.

I don't want to disregard individual experiences here. If someone says "It's harder to find players for game X in my town than it was 15 years ago," I'll believe them. I'm just not sure how much we can extrapolate from anecdotes.
 
Here is our disconnect: You are talking about quantity, and availability for people already in the hobby. I have never said those are bad things.

I am talking about how visibility for non D&D based RPG's is best enabled through large, active, player networks.

As am I, RPG publishers can't stay in business unless they have large active player networks. Especially when talking like folks like modiphus or Free Leaque. While there may be some at the individual author level who cater to collectors doing that doesn't work the larger your company is. The closest we come is somebody like Goodman Games but even there the part that appeals to collectors is a distinct product line. The DCC line thrives because players play it.
Which makes it much easier for people new to the hobby to recognize and find alternatives to D&D with no effort.
Market share is irrelevant as far as that goes, emphasizing no effort part. While D&D 5e is likely the first RPG they encounter, finding the alternative is a matter of using their phone and typing in roleplaying games. At which point they see that #5 on the list is a list of alternatives to D&D. And your analysis ignores the fact that while many play D&D 5e many of those players know about or play other not D&D players. So the odds are high that player will gain a quick understanding that this is a entire hobby and that there are other games.


I think that having near zero effort, visible alternatives to D&D would be a better overall situation for the hobby because it significantly lowers the bar for people that might be interested in playing other games to find them.

We have that thanks to the internet. And thanks to the shift to Living Campaigns/Adventure Leagues in many game stores. Think about it every week a mini-cons is held. Unless it just one table of regular odds are there more than a few who are aware of the larger hobby. Despite the focus on 5e, RPGs are a social game, people talk, and thus the novice is aware of the larger hobby. And the specifics are just an internet search away on the phone. Finally it doesn't have to be in stock locally, it can be ordered and shipped from several internet stores with RPG content.

You keep saying it would be better and when you list the desired outcome it already exists as a no effort activity. I think you underestimate how pervasive use of the internet has become. And while only a smaller percentage get involved on-line as far as the hobby goes. Use of the internet for shopping and causal research is way higher due to the prevalence of smart phone. Particularly among the under 30 crowd.
 
You'll have to define what you mean by "lifestyle game" then. We are obviously thinking of two separate things here as I do not agree.




Here is our disconnect.

You are talking about an existing hobbyist, or theoretical "anyone" who is willing to put forth some effort.

I've been talking about casual players new to RPG's who do not work for their entertainment.




I basically agree.

It's a shame that that 2nd tier network has largely dropped from where they were. But like I said earlier; it's also not D&D's fault.





It's not a zero sum game. But market share is still market share.

You are otherwise basically saying the same thing here for the 3rd time.

Here is our disconnect: You are talking about quantity, and availability for people already in the hobby. I have never said those are bad things.

I am talking about how visibility for non D&D based RPG's is best enabled through large, active, player networks.

Which makes it much easier for people new to the hobby to recognize and find alternatives to D&D with no effort.

I think that having near zero effort, visible alternatives to D&D would be a better overall situation for the hobby because it significantly lowers the bar for people that might be interested in playing other games to find them.
Here are the first two results when I searched YouTube for “table top role playing games”, looks like choices other than D&D are pretty damn visible :shade:


E5ADE092-9566-45F0-851D-BBFF5A516055.png
 
I don't want to disregard individual experiences here. If someone says "It's harder to find players for game X in my town than it was 15 years ago," I'll believe them. I'm just not sure how much we can extrapolate from anecdotes.
If it is finding local players it absolutely waxes and wanes and I would certainly believe them. I have been involved in the hobby locally for 40 years and there are good years and bad years. 20 years of this was with GURPS as my primary system. The difference today is the internet. Not just on-line play but finding people locally. In my neck of the woods you could find players via the internet but you would have be willing to drive somewhere between Erie and Pittsburgh to play face to face if the game you like isn't D&D 5e. Otherwise you will have to build it yourself by reaching out at your local game store or game club.
 
I think the chances of being able to find one of those games varied a lot, though. I don't think it was universal.

I don't want to disregard individual experiences here. If someone says "It's harder to find players for game X in my town than it was 15 years ago," I'll believe them. I'm just not sure how much we can extrapolate from anecdotes.
There probably is data. I just don't have it.

Edit: eg we know, by reported sales data, that Vampire, was doing extremely well in the 90s and competing with D&D, so there was definitely a player network there. What I don't know, and wonder if there is data to show, is how other games such as Shadowrun or Legends of the Five Rings at their height were doing in terms of market percentage compared to say Warhammer 4e, or one of Modiphus's games now.

My suspicion, is, that as an overall percentage of the gaming market, the 90s games were bigger.
 
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Ok, so I don't think this would necessarily work but something like this has the potential to appeal to a market

Action Movie Emulator RPG - a fast playing game where you are the heroes! Think Feng Shui but less weird backstory and geared at delivering archetypes of the shows people watch. Templating just like it did, but a system that is simpler (especially action economy) and less broken (combat skill I am looking at you)

Then a GURPs style series of books covering the different genres, ideally with some tie ins - so everything from Buffy to Star Wars through Die Hard can be offered for use.

Then books turning films/shows you have seen into adventures - the premise - you can change the ending! End up with a different boy/girl/catperson!

A system of transferable points for use with your next character in their next show. You can do long running series or jump from film to film, with a new template each time. Some templates take more points to unlock.

That's the pitch...
 
Ok, so I don't think this would necessarily work but something like this has the potential to appeal to a market

Action Movie Emulator RPG - a fast playing game where you are the heroes! Think Feng Shui but less weird backstory and geared at delivering archetypes of the shows people watch. Templating just like it did, but a system that is simpler (especially action economy) and less broken (combat skill I am looking at you)

Then a GURPs style series of books covering the different genres, ideally with some tie ins - so everything from Buffy to Star Wars through Die Hard can be offered for use.

Then books turning films/shows you have seen into adventures - the premise - you can change the ending! End up with a different boy/girl/catperson!

A system of transferable points for use with your next character in their next show. You can do long running series or jump from film to film, with a new template each time. Some templates take more points to unlock.

That's the pitch...
"Everyday Heroes" seems to want to pursue some of this idea. So far it has tie-in modules/mini rules supplements cooking for Pacific Rim, Kong, Highlander, Escape From New York, The Crow, Universal Soldier, Total Recall and Rambo, and it seems like they want to use the tie in strategy to provide some sustainability into the line. The fact that it is "The next edition of D20 Modern, updated for 5E" kinda seems unlikely to match up with the idea of a lighter system where you can use Feng Shui style "grab & go" templates though.
 
"Everyday Heroes" seems to want to pursue some of this idea. So far it has tie-in modules/mini rules supplements cooking for Pacific Rim, Kong, Highlander, Escape From New York, The Crow, Universal Soldier, Total Recall and Rambo, and it seems like they want to use the tie in strategy to provide some sustainability into the line. The fact that it is "The next edition of D20 Modern, updated for 5E" kinda seems unlikely to match up with the idea of a lighter system where you can use Feng Shui style "grab & go" templates though.
Thank you, hearing about this is interesting to me. I came up with my idea independently (but with no desire to do the work, and lets face it, it's not super original). I may check this out, but obviously as it's based on 5e it's not a D&D killer :smile:

Good lead.
 
I was interested in Everyday Heroes when they were talking about it being a update of D20 Modern until I saw that they basically removed what made D20 Modern great to me (the 6 base classes based on the stats with free multiclassing and no set abilities, just a bonus feat from a specific list based on class every even level and a class talent every odd level).

It was a class/level game that came the closest to feeling truly open in character creation/customization.
 
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