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silva

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Ok that's a nice move, but please, let's try to keep this friendly, folks. :wink:
 

robertsconley

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I don't see that as coming out the rule set just how that GM approaches it, nothing you describe seems tied to what I've read in the book which like AW is very much "here what I do, roll when needed." The only unusual mechanic is the clock and the flashbacks.
See this, we had keep dropping roleplaying as our character i.e. Free Play to deal with the crap called for in Downtime, Engagement Roll, and Score. The referee is not the problem in this case. He experienced with other RPGs, has run this with his regular group numerous time successfully. Who share his interest in this style of game where the players act like authors.

Diagram.jpg

With us, we just wanted to roleplay our character and move on. The main issues throughout the night was lack of desire to do any meaningful downtime and our unwillingness to come up with flashbacks. Basically after the first hour and a half or so, we understood what was going on and were ready to deal with it. The downtime stuff and flashback stuff were distraction. Made more annoying by the fact how our character were interacting was interesting and the situation also was interesting.

After I read the book, my impression is that it is more or less a wargame like Shadowrun Crossfire. A board game with the veneer of roleplaying a character lathered over it. Include Crossfire style missions with distinct phases and goals to achieve. The game is about manipulating the abstract mini-games rather than trying to adjudicate specific actions by the PCs.

And to be damn clear, while it is a terrible traditional roleplaying game, that has nothing to do with whether it is fun to play or not. Just as D&D 4e is a terrible version of D&D, but as a traditional RPG with a heavy combat focus it a lot of fun to play.
 

Zak Smith

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Bluebeard's Bride is 130 pages and packed with quite extravagant art, not sure how it qualifies as short.
It's not "extravagant" or "packed" --there's not that much art, but the packaging (especially the gold embossing) makes it feel more present than it is, which is good. The detailed artist that everyone shows off did mayyyybe 5 pieces for the book? and the other one (gorier and smaller, but better) did maybe 10? I don't have a copy to hand. Anyway: it's sparser than you think.

Veil I haven't seen all the way through. City of Mist seems like it was hurt by its graphic design--the art's alright but the graphic design is off-the-shelf Green-Ronin-level "OooOOoo Pulp!" bs. For the same thing done better see the covers of Achtung Cthulhu.

I do think the PTA crowd are slowwwwwwwwwly learning this lesson, but it may be too late.

AW could have a lot better art but it came out in 2010, Death Frost Doom’s original release (believe it was 2009)[/quote[
Apoc World is a core book for an entire game. DFD was a module. On top of all that, Vincent was, by the time of AW an established writer who already had done Dogs in the Vineyard and had a Diana Jones nomination behind him.

Nobody should give a lil indie any shit for putting out a scrappy zine any way they can--but the number of storygamers who were willing to put out what looks on the outside like a finished and professional product on the outside with fuck-all in the way of art its hurt the work.

It was the content of DFD that grabbed people not the presentation
Not realizing art is content is part of the problem.
 
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Zak Smith

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What's is this? Always curious to see new art from Zak (and new good games). Tell me more!
The revised hardcover Death Frost Doom has been out for a few years--I rewrote the original text and added some stuff, Jez Gordon redid the art.
 

Zak Smith

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Okay, is this a teaser?
Nah it's just the nearest thing I had to hand. Shawn Cheng's sending me laid-out pages every week, I'm not rationing them--if you want to see more, just ask.
 
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Zak Smith

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ZWEIHANDERING

Whenever you see a forum thread where your game is vaguely relevant, roll +marketing. On a 10+, hold 3. On a 7 - 9, hold 1. Spend your hold to:
* Post a preview of your game
* Con a forum regular into doing marketing work for your game for you

On a miss, hold 1 anyway, but you have to remind us of one of your grudges as well.
If you want to log onto a forum about RPGs and complain about people talking about RPGs that's your business.

The first question any designer will (and should) get when criticizing someone else is "Well what the fuck would you do?" so I pre-empted your other complaint and left an example. If the price of that catch-22 is that of the 153 messages I have apparently left on this forum, one of them has something I made in it, boo fucking hoo.


If you want me to instead lie about who is doing good or bad work and not put my money where my mouth is, that's also your prerogative since there are no rules on the forum requiring comments to be useful or interesting.
 
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zweihander

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ZWEIHANDERING

Whenever you see a forum thread where your game is vaguely relevant, roll +marketing. On a 10+, hold 3. On a 7 - 9, hold 1. Spend your hold to:
* Post a preview of your game
* Con a forum regular into doing marketing work for your game for you

On a miss, hold 1 anyway, but you have to remind us of one of your grudges as well.
In Zweihänder terms, I flip the results to succeed at Marketing Tests.

When others use a Marketing Test while talking about Zweihänder in a positive way, they gain an Assist Die. If in a negative way, they must have played Zweihänder and also give critical feedback while making a Marketing Test, or else gain the Something Awful or 4Chan condition. The condition you gain is based on your Age Group.
 

Voros

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See this, we had keep dropping roleplaying as our character i.e. Free Play to deal with the crap called for in Downtime, Engagement Roll, and Score. The referee is not the problem in this case. He experienced with other RPGs, has run this with his regular group numerous time successfully. Who share his interest in this style of game where the players act like authors.

View attachment 5384

With us, we just wanted to roleplay our character and move on. The main issues throughout the night was lack of desire to do any meaningful downtime and our unwillingness to come up with flashbacks. Basically after the first hour and a half or so, we understood what was going on and were ready to deal with it. The downtime stuff and flashback stuff were distraction. Made more annoying by the fact how our character were interacting was interesting and the situation also was interesting.

After I read the book, my impression is that it is more or less a wargame like Shadowrun Crossfire. A board game with the veneer of roleplaying a character lathered over it. Include Crossfire style missions with distinct phases and goals to achieve. The game is about manipulating the abstract mini-games rather than trying to adjudicate specific actions by the PCs.

And to be damn clear, while it is a terrible traditional roleplaying game, that has nothing to do with whether it is fun to play or not. Just as D&D 4e is a terrible version of D&D, but as a traditional RPG with a heavy combat focus it a lot of fun to play.
Only downtime is dealt with at a high level. Everything else in the diagram is played out. And downtime is really no different than downtime in Adventures in Middle Earth. Or in 5e D&D. As I recall you’re a big fan of AiME.

I get that you may not have liked the break with convention with the flashbacks but as I said there are lots of conventional heist rpgs out there if that's what you want. To complain that a game that is trying something different is, you know, different seems to be a rather pointless exercise. To claim it isn't an rpg or 'really' a boardgame is a tiresome posture probably best debated in another thread as I think has has less to do with PbtA or BitD and more about the widespread resistance in the aging RPG fandom to new games and mechanics.
 
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robertsconley

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Only downtime is dealt with at a high level. Everything else in the diagram is played out. And downtime is really no different than downtime in Adventures in Middle Earth. Or in 5e D&D. As I recall you’re a big fan of AiME.
The main issue I have isn't with addition of downtime, it is with the overall structure.

To complain that a game that is trying something different is, you know, different seems to be a rather pointless exercise.
It is when it advertises itself as a traditional roleplaying game and have to focus on other things other than pretending to be my character. I don't have the same complaint of Shadowrun Crossfire because despite the point of game is that you play character cooperating with other playing to complete missions. It is clearly presented as a boardgame. So my exception is to achieve the victory condition per the rules.

To claim it isn't an rpg or 'really' a boardgame is a tiresome posture probably best debated in another thread as I think has has less to do with PbtA or BitD and more about the widespread resistance in the aging RPG fandom to new games and mechanics.
Or sometimes a duck is a duck. It felt like the same class of game as represented by Shadowrun Crossfire for the reasons I outlined in the previous post. I played both, I am reporting the experience.
 

silva

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To be perfectly honest, these days I don't care for "traditional" RPGs because most times that means slow boring procedures that waste my time and add little to the actual game, all because "muh simulation".

So I don't care what people call Blades or PbtA or Pendragon, as long as they continue to exist and I continue playing them.
 

Zak Smith

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To be perfectly honest, these days I don't care for "traditional" RPGs because most times that means slow boring procedures that waste my time and add little to the actual game, all because "muh simulation".
I don't think that's an accurate description of why rules you don't like generally exist--"simulation" is very rarely anyone's goal as designer or player, "simulation" as the catch-all reason for any rule whose purpose the reader can't identify is just a received idea from troll forums (even for people who claim to like it and have fallen into the trap of using these terms).

Games usually have these procedures you don't like because they lead to results that either don't crop up in your play because your group doesn't exploit them (if you fail to open a door that means maybe a random encounter and a risk-reward calculation) or ones where you don't enjoy the challenge they present (random spells being actually random means you need to take tactical advantage of what you're given, for example).
 
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robertsconley

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I find that for many it is about what the rule abstract or don't abstract irregardless of the type of game it is. For traditional roleplaying, I been involved with groups that would be annoyed with playing out the trek to and from the dungeon when they exit or enter. I been involved with groups that were trying to make every in-game hour count as they had multiple things going on from in-game day to in-game day. Sometimes is about the kind of abstraction like the various minimalist approaches to account for injury.

With the Blades in the Dark, the character creation was fine, the setting was fine, the choices and method of resolving action was fine. It more abstract than what I go for usually but the "stuff" i.e. the choices one had for character creation was very evocative for the premise. So +1 for that.

If the session continued as a traditional tabletop rpg then fun would have been had by all. But that not how the game flows. Instead it had a specific structure that made it feel like a boardgame.
 

OHT

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ZWEIHANDERING

Whenever you see a forum thread where your game is vaguely relevant, roll +marketing. On a 10+, hold 3. On a 7 - 9, hold 1. Spend your hold to:
* Post a preview of your game
* Con a forum regular into doing marketing work for your game for you

On a miss, hold 1 anyway, but you have to remind us of one of your grudges as well.
* hands over the internet * - Your winnings, sir. :hehe:
 

silva

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I don't think that's an accurate description of why rules you don't like generally exist--"simulation" is very rarely anyone's goal as designer or player, "simulation" as the catch-all reason for any rule whose purpose the reader can't identify is just a received idea from troll forums (even for people who claim to like it and have fallen into the trap of using these terms).

Games usually have these procedures you don't like because they lead to results that either don't crop up in your play because your group doesn't exploit them (if you fail to open a door that means maybe a random encounter and a risk-reward calculation) or ones you don't enjoy the challenge they present (random spells being actually random means you need to take tactical advantage of what you're given, for example).
You may be right. What I can't stand anymore are those super involving procedures like character creations that take half a session or combat systems that take 2 hours to resolve 20 seconds of in-game time, because that rarely translates into fun and becomes just busywork in my experience. Those are not always related to simulation purposes, though, I agree.
 

Voros

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The main issue I have isn't with addition of downtime, it is with the overall structure.



It is when it advertises itself as a traditional roleplaying game and have to focus on other things other than pretending to be my character. I don't have the same complaint of Shadowrun Crossfire because despite the point of game is that you play character cooperating with other playing to complete missions. It is clearly presented as a boardgame. So my exception is to achieve the victory condition per the rules.



Or sometimes a duck is a duck. It felt like the same class of game as represented by Shadowrun Crossfire for the reasons I outlined in the previous post. I played both, I am reporting the experience.
Not sure where you've seen it advertised as a 'traditional' roleplaying game. Not convinced about these endless claims that trad players are somehow being 'tricked' into playing games. Reminds me of the time some members of the theatre audience freaked at a showing of Cronenberg's Crash. These days with the net all the details you could want on a game are easily available.
 
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Voros

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What's is this? Always curious to see new art from Zak (and new good games). Tell me more!
I know someone else already kinda answered this but want to say that the revised Death Frost Doom by Zak and Jez for LotFP is terrific. Great art and maps and the changes Zak made improve a pretty good adventure to a nearly great adventure.
 

robertsconley

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Not sure where you've seen it advertised as a 'traditional' roleplaying game. Not convinced about these endless claims that trad players are somehow being 'tricked' into playing games. Reminds me of the time some members of the theatre audience freaked at a showing of Cronenberg's Crash. These days with the net all the detaiks you could want on a game are easily available.
I did not mentioned trickery. My friend who refereeing was known to like games like Blades in the Dark so as a group we were prepared for something different. As for advertising it right there in the link you gave.

Blades in the Dark
is a tabletop role-playing game about a crew of daring scoundrels seeking their fortunes on the haunted streets of an industrial-fantasy city. There are heists, chases, occult mysteries, dangerous bargains, bloody skirmishes, and, above all, riches to be had — if you’re bold enough to seize them.
What the company choose advertise it as is irrelevant to reporting my experience and that it felt more similar to Shadowrun Crossfire as a game than it did with the other RPGs I own like D&D, GURPS, Runequest, Traveller, etc. And why it felt that way.
 

Mankcam

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Well to be fair, it actually isn't false advertising. It is a tabletop roleplaying game, there is really nothing to indicate otherwise.

It just has more storygame dials than it does mainstream rpg or old school rpg elements. That's why it feels different to the classic rpgs that you listed.

I guess there seems to be three broad groupings in the tabletop rpg spectrum - mainstream, old school revival, and storygame. Mainstream sits in the middle, and the lines blur on either side with the other groups.

I don't think many game companies advertise outright which group their systems fall into, considering these things are so vague, although they often promote certain play styles. I think OSR seems to be much better than the others for clearly identifying on their books which category their products fall under.
 
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silva

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robertsconley said:
It is when it advertises itself as a traditional roleplaying game and..
There's no "traditional" anywhere in that cover. So it seems it's your fault for creating a wrong expectation.

Though your experiences are not far from my own. Blades really feels like a mix of RPG, boardgame and improv-storytelling. Only those are features to me, not problems.
 
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Trippy

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There is no such thing as a 'traditional rpg' in the context it is being used here. False dichotomy.
 

Mankcam

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Will be interesting to see if PbtA is alive and healthy in five to ten years time.
I like fresh ideas, and willing to try lots of new things in regards to gaming. However sometimes I feel if a system has too many 'novelty' mechanics, then it itself runs the risk of being a novelty.
I guess we'll see...
 
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silva

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Will be interesting to see if PbtA is alive and healthy in five to ten years time.
I like fresh ideas, and willing to try lots of new things in regards to gaming. However sometimes I feel if a system has too many 'novelty' mechanics, then it itself runs the risk of being a novelty. Gaming is no different.
I guess we'll see...
Well it's here since 2010 and already influenced the hobby in some ways (Star Wars' success with complications, Cypher's GM don't rolls dice, Mutant Year Zero and Beyond the Wall playbooks and loaded relationships, the new Kult, etc) so there's that.
 

robertsconley

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I guess I can't use any type of shorthand without someone wagging their finger at me going tut..tut.

To be crystal clear, my point is that Blades in the Dark doesn't play the same as games where players interact with a setting as their character where their actions are adjudicated by a referee.

That this is a result of the structure imposed by a set of mechanics for planning and resolving criminal operations. The result is that feels like playing a boardgame like Shadowrun Crossfire.

That this was a source of frustration because the setting, character creations, and the scenario for the session as laid out by the referee were interesting and fun to explore as our respective characters. That the switch between playing as our character and playing the boardgame to resolve what we wanted to do was jarring and unwelcomed. Especially as the resolution mechanics was boring as a game in of itself.

I have no doubt this game resonates with people, and have first hand experience via the accounts of my friend who refereed and those who I talk to from his regular group.

My opinion is that Evil Hat gains nothing by advertising this as a tabletop RPG with all it concoctions for hobbyists. That Blades in the Dark lies within the family of games represented by Shadowrun Crossbow, Arkham Horror, etc.

A family of games that successfully merges some of the concepts of games where players interact with a setting as their character with are referee adjudicating their action (i.e. traditional RPGs) with games where the goal is to play by the mechanics to achieve a victory conditions (i.e. boardgames).
 

robertsconley

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Well it's here since 2010 and already influenced the hobby in some ways (Star Wars' success with complications, Cypher's GM don't rolls dice, Mutant Year Zero and Beyond the Wall playbooks and loaded relationships, the new Kult, etc) so there's that.
All those ideas were used and in play by the early 80s. For example Chaosium King Arthur's Pendragon.

What changed was because of the advent of Euro Games after 2000 the diversity of mechanics increased especially those that look simple but turn out have a lot of depth when used in play.
 

silva

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To be crystal clear, my point is that Blades in the Dark doesn't play the same as games where players interact with a setting as their character where their actions are adjudicated by a referee.
We got it. Blades plays as an hybrid of RPG (during the scores and freeplay) + boardgame (during downtime) + improv-storytelling (during flashbacks) elements and you don't like that. Fine.

The problem is that you're attempting to disqualify it's "RPG" part because it's not of your favorite flavour, or because it comes with the other elements by it's side. And that's nonsense. Chocolate on a Neapolitan ice cream is still chocolate, and will taste like chocolate if you strip the strawberry and cream. :hmmm:

All those ideas were used and in play by the early 80s. For example Chaosium King Arthur's Pendragon.
First, AFAIK Pendragon do not have success at a cost/playbooks/GM never rolls/etc. So please, elaborate this point. Second, even if Pendragon did have any of those, it didn't influence any other game in adopting those features, something AW did.
 
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robertsconley

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We got it. Blades plays as an hybrid of RPG (during the scores and freeplay) + boardgame (during downtime) + improv-storytelling (during flashbacks) elements and you don't like that. Fine.

The problem is that you're attempting to disqualify it's "RPG" part because it's not of your favorite flavour, or because it comes with the other elements by it's side. And that's nonsense. Chocolate on a Neapolitan ice cream is still chocolate, and will taste like chocolate if you strip the strawberry and cream. :hmmm:
Excellent analogy! If you ordered chocolate and I handed a dish with equal helping of vanilla, chocolate and strawberry, you would be understand upset with me and ask for what you ordered.

The problem here is we call everything that involves playing as a character ice cream. Anybody who try is to call something chocolate or define what chocolate is runs into irrational opposition. Despite acknowledging there are a larger category of ice cream.

Instead of acknowledging that yes, there are some games where players interact with a setting as a character that are related enough to form a category called chocolate. We get a standard litany of complaints, like "You are being exclusionary", "why we can't just call everything ice cream and play?", and so forth and so on.

I am sure at this point somebody, not necessarily you, will excerpt something from the above and totally ignore what I say next. But here it goes.

Games that focus on players interacting with a setting as their characters where their actions are adjudicated by a human referee are by their very nature hybrids. Dave Arneson's Blackmoor Blackmoor campaign was a hybrid of several different things.

Hybridization in gaming is a good thing. It how we get new and interesting things to play. However to be good at making new games, one needs to understand how existing games works, what elements they share, what makes them different and why.

When one studies games it one finds that there are categories of games. Games that stems from a common set of elements. Also finds that there numerous hybrids as well. That the existence of hybrids doesn't negate the existence of categories of games. That using different kinds of mechanic have a consequence in how the game is played. What is easy to focus on and what not. What take longer to resolve and what easy to resolve.

Discussion devolve because of the widespread hybridization. People start in one place, boardgame, wargame, RPG, and add in the elements they find interesting. Sometime the result remains in the original category sometime it now something different. However it is highly likely the author still feel it part of whatever original category he started with. Along with being offended if an opinion is stated that their game is no longer part of that category or gasp, more accurately a hybrid. Because of this debates devolve into being how one feels rather than the merits.

This is not unique to our present situation. It happen in the 70s with wargames and games where people interact with a setting as their characters where their actions are adjudicated by a human referee.

First, AFAIK Pendragon do not have success at a cost/playbooks/GM never rolls/etc. So please, elaborate this point. Second, even if Pendragon did have any of those, it didn't influence any other game in adopting those features, something AW did.
Amber, GM Never rolls
Pendragon, Mechanics detailing a character's personality along with personal interconnections.
Traveller, generating a characters back story, and supported self contained scenarios like Patron Encounters, that operate simiiarly to playbooks.
Marvel Superheroes i.e. FASERIP had many degrees of success.
James Bond RPG had narrative mechanics to make a campaign flow like a James Bond Movie.

What distinguishes story games from the above (except for James Bond) is a focus on creating a narrative as form of collaborative storytelling.
 

EmperorNorton

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I don't see that as coming out the rule set just how that GM approaches it, nothing you describe seems tied to what I've read in the book which like AW is very much "here what I do, roll when needed." The only unusual mechanic is the clock and the flashbacks.
... I honestly have no idea what that person was running, but it sounds nothing like how I run Blades.

Same with the "replacing roleplaying with rolls" comments (If you aren't describing how you are doing what you are doing, I don't know how the GM would even decide the position and effect level of the roll). Or the idea that no one can be creative and that there are no challenges (coming up with good flashbacks on its own to get around the current situation can get pretty creative and challenging, not to mention that you can't flashback everything anyway or you will stress yourself right out of the heist).

I mean, the core mechanic of Blades is "Tell the GM what you want to do, and how you want to do it, then the GM sets the Position (difficulty) and effect (what you would accomplish if you succeeded) based on what you described, or decides you don't need to roll at all". Which is... pretty much how 90% of RPGs work.

The only criticism I do agree with is that it is a pretty laser focused system. But if that small focus is what you want, then even that can be a positive.
 

robertsconley

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I mean, the core mechanic of Blades is "Tell the GM what you want to do, and how you want to do it, then the GM sets the Position (difficulty) and effect (what you would accomplish if you succeeded) based on what you described, or decides you don't need to roll at all". Which is... pretty much how 90% of RPGs work.
I disagree that is the core mechanic from how it was explained, played, and from reading the book. A lot more emphasis is placed on the interplay of the different phases as shown on the graphic I posted earlier.

As for how you used it, sure I see can how that can be 90% of what you focused on in your campaign/session. The sections on character creations, resolving actions, work as a RPG. It just when everything else included it would feeling more like playing Shadowrun Crossfire than playing D&D.
 
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Endless Flight

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If we use the ice cream analogy and say vanilla represents old school, chocolate represents narrative, and strawberry represents story games, they are all still ice cream. So these games are all RPGs. There’s too many games that have a little bit of chocolate mixed in with their vanilla and they don’t fit into one box. There’s no real reason to label them on the box.
 

robertsconley

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Also, my least favorite criticism of games people don't like the style of is "IT ISN'T EVEN AN RPG". Because 99% of the time its fucking bullshit.
I explained why if doesn't feel like Shadowrun Crossfire to you then so be it.
 

EmperorNorton

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I explained why if doesn't feel like Shadowrun Crossfire to you then so be it.
You realize nothing about the structure of play stops anyone from roleplaying at any time right? That every single one of the things that can happen at every single step can be roleplayed out?

It has a certain explicit structure for flow, but absolutely none of that stops roleplaying at all.

And as someone who is very very experienced with board games, yeah, no it really doesn't feel like a board game. Because at every single step you can turn to the GM and go "I want to do X" and the GM can adjudicate how to do that.
 

robertsconley

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If we use the ice cream analogy and say vanilla represents old school, chocolate represents narrative, and strawberry represents story games, they are all still ice cream.
I would like to see you to try to get my youngest to eat anything with chocolate ice cream in it.

So these games are all RPGs. There’s too many games that have a little bit of chocolate mixed in with their vanilla and they don’t fit into one box. There’s no real reason to label them on the box.
So I should tell my youngest that he should each chocolate ice cream because ice cream and that he is silly for disliking it so much.

Why it important that Blades in the Dark and D&D be placed on the same shelf under the same category name?

Especially in light of your acknowledgment that yes there while there are games called ice cream (i..e roleplaying games) there are different flavors like vanilla (old school), chocolate (narrative), etc.

Wouldn't it be useful to know what flavor a game is? Or whether it is a mix like Neapolitan (which some absolutely can't enough of like one of my cousins).
 

robertsconley

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You realize nothing about the structure of play stops anyone from roleplaying at any time right? That every single one of the things that can happen at every single step can be roleplayed out?

It has a certain explicit structure for flow, but absolutely none of that stops roleplaying at all.
My dislike is about how the game flows as outlined in the diagram I posted. From what I read and experienced with the mechanics in Chapter 4: The Score. How it interplays with the faction mechanics and the downtime mechanics feel like manipulating a boardgame to me. Yeah there are moment where I roleplay in characters but the other mechanics are an unwelcome distraction.

For a different example in Champions, superpower are precisely defined by a system of base effects, advantages, and limitations. The system is quite flexible, but it a lot of looking up things on lists and doing math. Plus it can be argued that it doesn't reflect how powers are represented in the genre.

The result is that there are people who like the superhero genre for RPGs but will not play Champions. Feels that all the math and build manipulation gets in the way of roleplaying a superhero and forces them what is in their view a wargame. For many RPGs like FASERIP or ICONs is a better fit.

And as someone who is very very experienced with board games, yeah, no it really doesn't feel like a board game.
Sure I can see that.

Because at every single step you can turn to the GM and go "I want to do X" and the GM can adjudicate how to do that.
Sure that may be true but for me having to keep in mine that I am trying to modify the faction mechanics and the whole Engagement sequence makes it feel like a boardgame similar to Shadowrun Crossfire.
 

robertsconley

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Why is it important to you that Blades in the Dark not be called an RPG?
How about answering the question?

As for your question it because it what I observed and read from primary sources i.e. the rulebook sold by Evil Hat. And when questioned I defended my opinion. When I defended people go either it bullshit, like you, or ,"Why does this all matter it all ice cream."

Either flavors of ice cream exist or they don't. If they do then it can be a topic of discussion including whether somebody's product is particular flavor of ice cream.
 

Luca

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You realize nothing about the structure of play stops anyone from roleplaying at any time right? That every single one of the things that can happen at every single step can be roleplayed out?

It has a certain explicit structure for flow, but absolutely none of that stops roleplaying at all.
A negative definition does not work as it becomes so vague as to be useless.
Example: in Risk, nothing stops you from roleplaying a crazy dictator bent on world domination. There is absolutely no rule against that in the game. This, however, does not make Risk a roleplaying game.

I understand the source of your irritation but I also understand Robert's viewpoint. I have been there and done that in this neverending fight about definining the language.

Robert is right in the fact that we need a more precise language. Saying "Blades is an RPG just like D&D" might be all well and good but if I'm looking for a "traditional" RPG that doesn't really convey me the information I need to make a valid purchase.
OTOH, I can also easily see why you'd find the sentence "Blades is not an RPG" as an attempt to demean the game.

I don't think it's what's happening here. But I do know that as soon as you try to restrict the semantic field associated with the term "RPG", holy wars will inevitably erupt.

I believe the only solution at this point in the evolution of RPG theory (or rather, lack thereof, not in small part due to these "semantic wars") is just to accept a field as large as possible for the "RPG" term (as regretful as this might be, since the larger the field, the less information it gives) and just start creating subcategories with the "RPG" word in it. E.g. traditional RPGs, storygame RPGs, OSR RPGs, etc.

No idea how you would call an hybrid like Blades though. "Hybrid board-RPG"? In any case, a name is needed, not to signify it is something "less", but simply to properly identify specific characteristics in a quick and easily identifiable way.
 
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