Reboot that game!

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True20, with less skills, so it hews closer to 5E in that respect than 3E.

Maybe no Skills, just an array of Feats that have different costings according to which broad Class you choose. Keep just those three Classes, or at a pinch, four Classes but keep them so broad that you can build any concept from them.

Yeah a more streamlined and contemporary True20 could be a good system to have... :thumbsup:
 
True20, with less skills, so it hews closer to 5E in that respect than 3E.

Maybe no Skills, just an array of Feats that have different costings according to which broad Class you choose. Keep just those three Classes, or at a pinch, four Classes but keep them so broad that you can build any concept from them.

Yeah a more streamlined and contemporary True20 could be a good system to have... :thumbsup:
I don't mind the skills because it only had the three classes. That was part of my issue w/3rd; lots of feats, classes, & skills. If it had the three generic classes from Unearthed Arcana the and then allowed you to create your own class w/feats or powers I would still consider playing/running it.

The one thing about True20 was the split of sub-dual & normal damage. I booted the sub-dual track and ruled that sub-dual base damage is 12+mod vs. the normal 15.
That and DEX being basis for all attacks.
 
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Speaking of 3rd; C&C is still my favorite 'D&D' but this 3.5 Lite was really interesting to me. It was like a simplified reboot.
 
I don't mind the skills because it only had the three classes. That was part of my issue w/3rd; lots of feats, classes, & skills. If it had the three generic classes from Unearthed Arcana the and then allowed you to create your own class w/feats or powers I would still consider playing/running it.

The one thing about True20 was the split of sub-dual & normal damage. I booted the sub-dual track and ruled that sub-dual base damage is 12+mod vs. the normal 15.
That and DEX being basis for all attacks.

Yeah, one of 3e's biggest problem was that it had too much of everything IMO. But even if you limit the system to just three classes, a lot of the feats were crap and relied too much on feat-chains, and there were more skills than I think are truly necessary, even for a skill-based game. At least True20 merged Move Silently and Hide into just "Stealth" (like every game other than D&D has done in RPG history), but they still made you take Search and Notice as separate skills rather than just merge them into "Perception".

I prefer general skills, plus specialties, rather than deal with dozens of specialized skills that might not even come up during play. I also like the idea of "Feats", but 3e's feats were WAY too weak, like Dodge giving you a +1 bonus to dodge AC against a SINGLE opponent, or Weapon Focus giving you a +1 to with a single specific type of weapon. I think True20 may have somewhat addressed this, since Dodge Focus seems to work against any opponent (at least it doesn't specify you have to pick one), but generally speaking I think that feats should be more substantial than 3e's feats. Maybe as substantial as 5e feats. Otherwise it's a waste of time dealing with so may tiny situational benefits.
 
You could really change True20 to D&D by using HP (d10, d8, d6), all +1 damage bonus becomes +2 for variable damage dice, and keep to the T20 feats I think. The kicker I was trying to think of is the defense part. If one uses the vitality/wound points then armor DR only takes away from wound damage after all your vitality is gone or with a crit that may work.
And damaging spells could do 2x caster level + ability mod damage or so. Or maybe T20 damage x 1d4, something like that.
 
Yeah, one of 3e's biggest problem was that it had too much of everything IMO. But even if you limit the system to just three classes, a lot of the feats were crap and relied too much on feat-chains...
This was one of the issues with True 20 from my recollection. They didn't do anything much to fix the feats

It's infuriating how often D20 got reworked over the years and yet the same utterly garbage feats just kept coming back again and again like a turd that wouldn't flush.

Feats were not all that bad an idea in principle, were modular and could be easily tweaked, but the original crop were just awful, and yet almost nobody ever did anything with them.
 
This was one of the issues with True 20 from my recollection. They didn't do anything much to fix the feats

It's infuriating how often D20 got reworked over the years and yet the same utterly garbage feats just kept coming back again and again like a turd that wouldn't flush.

Feats were not all that bad an idea in principle, were modular and could be easily tweaked, but the original crop were just awful, and yet almost nobody ever did anything with them.

Exactly. The only d20 derived game I know of that tried to improve on feats was Fantasy Craft, which featured more solid feats with reduced feat-chains than standard 3e d20 System. tenbones tenbones did a whole thread about it over at the Site a while back.
 
The one thing about True20 was the split of sub-dual & normal damage. I booted the sub-dual track and ruled that sub-dual base damage is 12+mod vs. the normal 15.
That and DEX being basis for all attacks.

I love True 20, but the damage save killed it for me. I didn't like it in M&M either.

Concerning Dex: One hidden secret about True 20 (in my opinion) is that it's a swashbuckling game masquerading as a generic system, and Dex-premacy reflects that. There were many threads about Dex back in the day on the GR forums, and the three most popular solutions were:
  • Split Dex into AGI (attack) and DEX (defense)
  • Create two new atts: Attack and Defense (like MM2E)
  • Go back to the normal D20 way, adding Weapon Finesse back in
I prefer the latter, since it impacts the system the least.
 
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You could really change True20 to D&D by using HP (d10, d8, d6), all +1 damage bonus becomes +2 for variable damage dice, and keep to the T20 feats I think. The kicker I was trying to think of is the defense part. If one uses the vitality/wound points then armor DR only takes away from wound damage after all your vitality is gone or with a crit that may work.
And damaging spells could do 2x caster level + ability mod damage or so. Or maybe T20 damage x 1d4, something like that.

The problem is that in T20, your defense increases each level, but you never get tougher. D&D is sort of the opposite: your defense (AC) increases slower (due to magic items and a few other things) but your toughness (HP) increases every level. So if you increase both defense and HP each level, fights will take forever.

What I'd suggest is your initial class determines your HP, which never increase as you advance level.

Warriors: HP = 30 + (CON x 2)
Experts: HP = 20 + (CON x 2)
Adepts: HP = 10 + (CON x 2)

Then use the typical D20 weapons. Of course you can alter the numbers as you see fit. Maybe 25/15/10 and a x3 multiplier. Whatever seems the right spread for you.
 
This was one of the issues with True 20 from my recollection. They didn't do anything much to fix the feats

It's infuriating how often D20 got reworked over the years and yet the same utterly garbage feats just kept coming back again and again like a turd that wouldn't flush.

Feats were not all that bad an idea in principle, were modular and could be easily tweaked, but the original crop were just awful, and yet almost nobody ever did anything with them.

I get what you're saying, but back in 2005 when T20 came out, it did improve the feats. Looking back now it may seem like not enough, but consider that T20
  • Allowed you to buy the D20 class abilities as feats (Sneak Attack, Rage, Suggestion, etc.)
  • Combined the Move/attack/move feat tree into one feat (Move-by Action)
  • Combined all of the "+2 to 2 related skill" feats into one feat (Talented)
  • Combined all of the "craft magic item" feats into one feat (Imbue Item)
  • Combined the armor profs into one feat (Armor Training)
  • Deleted all of the AoO feats
Which was a definite improvement. Sure, they could have done more (ditch Track, Run, some of the Improved X feats, etc.) And they could have easily added a few of the more interesting feats from MM2E. But I guess they were trying to change it just enough to attract the 3.5 players without changing it too much.
 
I get what you're saying, but back in 2005 when T20 came out, it did improve the feats. Looking back now it may seem like not enough, but consider that T20
  • Allowed you to buy the D20 class abilities as feats (Sneak Attack, Rage, Suggestion, etc.)
  • Combined the Move/attack/move feat tree into one feat (Move-by Action)
  • Combined all of the "+2 to 2 related skill" feats into one feat (Talented)
  • Combined all of the "craft magic item" feats into one feat (Imbue Item)
  • Combined the armor profs into one feat (Armor Training)
  • Deleted all of the AoO feats
Which was a definite improvement. Sure, they could have done more (ditch Track, Run, some of the Improved X feats, etc.) And they could have easily added a few of the more interesting feats from MM2E. But I guess they were trying to change it just enough to attract the 3.5 players without changing it too much.
I get what you're saying. But for me the crippling flaw in so much D20 stuff is that Feats basically forced Warrior characters to specialise and then trapped them in that specialisation.

And often, as 5e shows there's not really a clear reason to not allow things in the first place.

This is I think the issue:
Tactical simple game: If you shoot a bow you just make the same roll. It doesn't matter if you a firing into melee or engaged in melee we'll just use the same basic roll to keep things simple.
Tactically complex game: Ok we want a bit of realism and complexity, so shooting a bow when engaged in melee has penalties and shooting into melee is difficult or risky.
Mechanically complex but tactically simple game: We'll do everything the tactically complex game does rules wise but then add no-brainer specialist options to make the game play like the tactically simple game in practice.

Or in other words you do a big circle around through a whole lot of complexity to end up back where the simple game begins, but with much more specialised and less flexible characters.
 
True20 was fine, but I felt three classes weren't enough. I think doing classes like D20 Modern, would have been a better choice.

I would also group skills into about twelve broad skills. Each class would then get a bonus progression in each of these, just like with attack bonus. The numbers on these progression, would be based on the D20 saving throws. So a max of either 6, 9 or 12 at 20 level.

The only D20 games, I have ever liked the Feats in were Spycraft and Fantasy Craft. So I would probably use them for this game.
 
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