Remember the classics

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Llew ap Hywel

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So I spent a great weekend reading BECMI and supplements and got to thinking what are the great RPG classics?

I'm thinking games pre 2000

Off the top of my head I had:

D&D (BX/BECMI)
AD&D (different enough to warrant its own entry)
Runequest
Rolemaster
Maelstrom
Dragon Warriors
Star Wars D6
Shadowrun
Cyberpunk

Any others?
 
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World of darkness in its various forms
Kult
Amber
Rifts
Earthdawn
Warhammer
Traveler

These are at least what I would consider classics, and each in different ways somehwat genre defining?
 
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Vampire: The Masquerade
Torg
HarnMaster
Bunnies & Burrows
TWERPS
Champions
GURPS
FUDGE
 
World of darkness in its various forms
Kult
Amber
Rifts
Earthdawn
Warhammer
Traveler

These are at least what I would consider classics, and each in different ways somehwat genre defining?
Amber definitely changed a lot of perspective on rules
 
Tunnels and Trolls
Paranoia
Bushido
Legend of the Five Rings
Fading Suns
Ars Magica
 
Call of Cthulhu
Pendragon
Deadlands
Toon
Fighting Fantasy
Marvel Superheoes (FASERIP version)
Star Frontiers
Boot Hill
 
Chivalry & Sorcery
DragonQuest
Talislanta
Empire of the Petal Throne
Arduin Grimoire
 
Vampire: The Masquerade (1991)
Original Dungeons & Dragons (1974)
Big Eyes Small Mouth (1998)
Shadowrun (1987)
Pathfinder (2009)
 
Classics of my formative years (early 1990s): BECMI/RC D&D, AD&D2, GURPS, WEG Star Wars, MERP, Stormbringer/Elric!, TSR Marvel Super Heroes, Mayfair DC Heroes 3rd edition, Call of Cthulhu 5th edition, Vampire: the Masquerade 2nd edition, Shadowrun 2nd edition, Castle Falkenstein. Plus a couple of Brazilian RPGs.

I didn't even play all of these but their looking down on me from the FLGS book shelves (there were FLGSs back then!) is just as nostalgic a memory as actual play in some cases.
 
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Well, I misewell try and be comprehensive...

These are what I consider "The Classics", insofar as they are the most influential and/or talked about RPGs in my experience. From the beginning in order of first edition release...

1970s
Dungeons & Dragons, Boot Hill, En Garde, Tunnels & Trolls, Chivalry & Sorcery, The Fantasy Trip, Traveller, Gamma World, RuneQuest, Villains & Vigilantes
1980s
Bushido, Rolemaster, Top Secret, Call of Cthulhu, Champions, Stormbringer, Dragon Warriors, Gangbusters, Star Frontiers, James Bond 007, Palladium Fantasy, Chill, Flashing Blades, Golden Heroes, Marvel Superheroes, MERP, Paranoia, Rolemaster, Toon, DC Heroes, Pendragon, Skyrealms of Jorune, TMNT & Other Strangeness, Ghostbusters, GURPs, Mechwarrior, Phoenix Command, WFRP, Ars Magica, WEG Star Wars, Talislanta, Teenagers From Outer Space, Beyond the Supernatural, Cyberpunk, Robotech, Shadowrun, Space:1889, Hero System, Prince Valiant
1990s
Amber, Kult, Timelord, Vampire: The Masquerade, World of Synnibarr, Over The Edge, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Earthdawn, H.O.L., Mage: The Ascension, SLA Industries, Theatrix, Whispering Vault, Castle Falkenstein, Street Fighter, Wraith: The Oblivion, Changeling: The Dreaming, FUDGE, SenZar, Deadlands, Fading Suns, Feng Shui, Heavy Gear, Witchcraft, BESM, Legend of the 5 Rings, The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen, Sorcerer, Tribe 8, Unknown Armies, All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Nobilis, The Story Engine
 
Well, I misewell try and be comprehensive...

These are what I consider "The Classics", insofar as they are the most influential and/or talked about RPGs in my experience. From the beginning in order of first edition release...

1970s
Dungeons & Dragons, Boot Hill, En Garde, Tunnels & Trolls, Chivalry & Sorcery, The Fantasy Trip, Traveller, Gamma World, RuneQuest, Villains & Vigilantes
1980s
Bushido, Rolemaster, Top Secret, Call of Cthulhu, Champions, Stormbringer, Dragon Warriors, Gangbusters, Star Frontiers, James Bond 007, Palladium Fantasy, Chill, Flashing Blades, Golden Heroes, Marvel Superheroes, MERP, Paranoia, Rolemaster, Toon, DC Heroes, Pendragon, Skyrealms of Jorune, TMNT & Other Strangeness, Ghostbusters, GURPs, Mechwarrior, Phoenix Command, WFRP, Ars Magica, WEG Star Wars, Talislanta, Teenagers From Outer Space, Beyond the Supernatural, Cyberpunk, Robotech, Shadowrun, Space:1889, Hero System, Prince Valiant
1990s
Amber, Kult, Timelord, Vampire: The Masquerade, World of Synnibarr, Over The Edge, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Earthdawn, H.O.L., Mage: The Ascension, SLA Industries, Theatrix, Whispering Vault, Castle Falkenstein, Street Fighter, Wraith: The Oblivion, Changeling: The Dreaming, FUDGE, SenZar, Deadlands, Fading Suns, Feng Shui, Heavy Gear, Witchcraft, BESM, Legend of the 5 Rings, The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen, Sorcerer, Tribe 8, Unknown Armies, All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Nobilis, The Story Engine
you could just everything lol
 
I'm being critical here... but this thread would be more interesting if people explained why they felt a specific Rpg was "classic". Otherwise, it just seems like a bunch of laundry lists of "shit I like". :smile:
That's a good idea
 
I'm being critical here... but this thread would be more interesting if people explained why they felt a specific Rpg was "classic". Otherwise, it just seems like a bunch of laundry lists of "shit I like". :smile:

Interesting suggestion.

For mine:

Tunnels and Trolls- Along with Runequest, one of what I consider the "big three" RPGS from that period. It's an interesting glimpse into how things could have developed if a different game than D&D had become dominant. Gonzo, funny to the point of being unashamedly silly, very rules light with no inclination towards simulation. It also arguably invented the gamebook. Choose Your Own Adventure predates it by a year, but Buffalo Castle is the first I know of to use dice etc.

Paranoia- It's easy to forget this now, because a lot of what it offered became more common. But at the time, the idea of the GM as adversary was pretty novel. (You can arguably find it some convention scenarios for D&D, but Paranoia popularised it). The idea that the other PCs were your active enemy was also ahead of its time.

Bushido - One of the very first RPGs with a non western setting. (Empire of the Petal Throne predates it though). It genuinely offered something completely different than anything else out there. It was complex because of its ambitions towards realism, but it was still playable unlike certain other games with that aim. (Take a bow, Space Opera). From a personal perspective, I remember getting it as a teenager. The focus on society and non combat skills felt really new and exciting. If that had been done before, I'd not seen it.

Legend of the Five Rings & Fading Suns - I've put these together because I think they're classic for the same reason. They were the exemplar of the 90s movement towards extensive world building (often with functional rather than spectacular mechanics, which Fading Suns especially falls into). I think they were both perfect examples of the RPG zeitgeist at the time.

Ars Magica - Two main things here. I'm sure that playing multiple characters had been done before. But Ars Magica is the first time I saw it fleshed out quite so impressively in a RPG. Also, the magic system is like nothing I'd seen before or since.
 
Chivalry & Sorcery
DragonQuest
Talislanta
Empire of the Petal Throne
Arduin Grimoire

I'd rather just post baseless opinions, but since people now want actual reasons, here are mine:

C&S: The first comprehensive attempt at a "genuinely" medieval rpg.

DragonQuest: One of D&D's first real competitors... so much that they bought it and eventually shelved it

Talislanta: an early attempt to break away from standard Tolkienesque fantasy. The system was also the precursor to the d20 system.

Empire of the Petal Throne: The first complete published rpg world, ever.

Arduin Grimoire: D&D's Spinal Tap... everything turned up to 11.

I'm going to add Hârn as a classic, as it's maps were unprecedented, and level of detail inspiring. It's part if the holy trinity of detailed rpg worlds, shared with Tekumel and Glorantha.
 
I'm being critical here... but this thread would be more interesting if people explained why they felt a specific Rpg was "classic". Otherwise, it just seems like a bunch of laundry lists of "shit I like". :smile:

To be honest 75% of the games I listed I don't personally like, but I acknowledge them as classics
 
Well, I misewell try and be comprehensive...

These are what I consider "The Classics", insofar as they are the most influential and/or talked about RPGs in my experience. From the beginning in order of first edition release...

1970s
Dungeons & Dragons, Boot Hill, En Garde, Tunnels & Trolls, Chivalry & Sorcery, The Fantasy Trip, Traveller, Gamma World, RuneQuest, Villains & Vigilantes
1980s
Bushido, Rolemaster, Top Secret, Call of Cthulhu, Champions, Stormbringer, Dragon Warriors, Gangbusters, Star Frontiers, James Bond 007, Palladium Fantasy, Chill, Flashing Blades, Golden Heroes, Marvel Superheroes, MERP, Paranoia, Rolemaster, Toon, DC Heroes, Pendragon, Skyrealms of Jorune, TMNT & Other Strangeness, Ghostbusters, GURPs, Mechwarrior, Phoenix Command, WFRP, Ars Magica, WEG Star Wars, Talislanta, Teenagers From Outer Space, Beyond the Supernatural, Cyberpunk, Robotech, Shadowrun, Space:1889, Hero System, Prince Valiant
1990s
Amber, Kult, Timelord, Vampire: The Masquerade, World of Synnibarr, Over The Edge, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Earthdawn, H.O.L., Mage: The Ascension, SLA Industries, Theatrix, Whispering Vault, Castle Falkenstein, Street Fighter, Wraith: The Oblivion, Changeling: The Dreaming, FUDGE, SenZar, Deadlands, Fading Suns, Feng Shui, Heavy Gear, Witchcraft, BESM, Legend of the 5 Rings, The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen, Sorcerer, Tribe 8, Unknown Armies, All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Nobilis, The Story Engine
You missed Twilight 2000. Other than that a pretty good list. Much like you I don't care for all of them. but they are definitely classics.
 
You missed Twilight 2000. Other than that a pretty good list. Much like you I don't care for all of them. but they are definitely classics.


Not familiar with Twilight 2000, only heard of it in passing, but I realized I also forgot TORG and Rifts.
 
The Mechanoids - a classic RPG because it was the first iteration of the Palladium RPG system that developed into Palladium Fantasy and later Rifts. And its awesome on its own.

Gamma World - a classic RPG (although a semi-sequel to Metamorphosis Alpha) because it was first (and my favorite) of the post-apocalyptic RPGs.
 
In my personal list:

BECMI D&D: The first RPG I played and ran, which I did for at least a couple of years in my mid teens. It was definitive. I don't want to go back though.

AD&D 2e: A glorious mess, made into even more of a glorious mess by my house rules. But my goodness, the scope and how it sparked the imagination. Having to house rule to an extent was formative. And then we have the glory still of the settings. I'm thinking of Dark Sun and Planescape here.

GURPS: Too complex for my tastes these days, but at the time it shook me up to see something so comprehensive and adaptable, including different genres. The many 3e world books are still a wonderful reference, without the system.

Call of Cthulhu: A good part of this still nails existential horror for me. I like the 7e update too, but the older versions are still playable for me, with notably very little change between editions.

Paranoia (I remember and own 2e): Light system which almost ends up GM fiat. The humour worked really well for me in my late teenage years. And zany PVP was a great palate cleanser between more serious games. Again, I'm not sure it's to my taste these days, but it stands out in my personal history.

There are lots from the 1980s and 1990s I'd also count as classics (World of Darkness, Traveller- okay, that's 1970s, RuneQuest, Pendragon, Legend of the Five Rings to name a few), but they're not games I knew at the time, though I've played all the ones I mentioned in brackets, sometimes in later editions.
 
For me the classics are Champions, Champions II and 4th ed, (Moldvay) Basic D&D, AD&D 1e, James Bond (from VG), Space Opera (ibid), and Mechwarrior I and that's about it.

Supplement wise...well, Champions II was practically a supplement to Champions rather than a game on its own. I never really saw any supplements for the games. For Pink & Turquoise box basic, probably B2 and X1. Although the first copy of B2 I had was geared for Holmes basic D&D. AD&D 1e...wow, I could break the word limit talking about that game and supplements. Y'all know I love it. Space Opera and James Bond I never played with any supplements, just the games by themselves. The latter was just sort of quasi-Role-playing with "characters" in a Space Marines game (o-oh my God! A Braunstein!). The only "supplements" for Mechwarrior 1 were the scenario packs that included some RPG elements, but by the time they got around to those they were in full swing with 2nd edition which was OK, but in the Clan era so that's not really "classic" to my mind (I know it was almost 30 years ago, shaddap).
 
GURPS: Too complex for my tastes these days, but at the time it shook me up to see something so comprehensive and adaptable, including different genres. The many 3e world books are still a wonderful reference, without the system.

Given the choice, I'd play GURPS 3 over 4. I know it's a little clunkier on some places, but I find it much easier on the brain cell than the current one.
 
For me the classics are Champions, Champions II and 4th ed, (Moldvay) Basic D&D, AD&D 1e, James Bond (from VG), Space Opera (ibid), and Mechwarrior I and that's about it.

Supplement wise...well, Champions II was practically a supplement to Champions rather than a game on its own. I never really saw any supplements for the games. For Pink & Turquoise box basic, probably B2 and X1. Although the first copy of B2 I had was geared for Holmes basic D&D. AD&D 1e...wow, I could break the word limit talking about that game and supplements. Y'all know I love it. Space Opera and James Bond I never played with any supplements, just the games by themselves. The latter was just sort of quasi-Role-playing with "characters" in a Space Marines game (o-oh my God! A Braunstein!). The only "supplements" for Mechwarrior 1 were the scenario packs that included some RPG elements, but by the time they got around to those they were in full swing with 2nd edition which was OK, but in the Clan era so that's not really "classic" to my mind (I know it was almost 30 years ago, shaddap).
Champions II and III are supplements for Champions 2nd edition. Confusing but Champions 1st edition had a small print run and can be identified by the lack of speed table on the back cover. Also the art inside is half good, half monkey scribbles.

Champions 3rd edition, not to be confused with Champions III, is perfect bound vs stapled.
 
As much as I hate the system, I would count Champions only behind XD&D in terms of the influence it had on subsequent RPGs. Effects-based point buy begins here.

Ars Magic codified troupe play.

James Bond:007 was the first design to use "hero points" for narrative scene editing by players.

GURPS not for its design (fairly mundane) but its library of excellent supplements. Nobody played GURPS. Everyone had the supplements.

Vampire for breaking the stranglehold dungeon fantasy had on the hobby. It wasn't the first "play the monsters" game, but it was the one everyone knew about. Also the first RPG to successfully push the idea of RPGs as art.

Traveller for being the ur-science fiction RPG, and being simple and hackable enough to do just about anything in. The origin of the tramp freighter crew trope.

Ghostbusters for being the first rules-light narrative RPG, and Ghostbusters II for proving no one wanted that.
 
Ghostbusters for being the first rules-light narrative RPG

Pretty sure both Dallas and FASERIP got there beforehand, although I guess it depends on one's definition of a "narrative rpg"
 
GURPS not for its design (fairly mundane) but its library of excellent supplements. Nobody played GURPS. Everyone had the supplements.

I played and ran GURPS, and it ran quite smoothly. It was the character generation that ended my use of the game. When I was in high school, playing only with other hardcore nerds, it worked fine. Once I got to college and was recruiting friends I made into gaming, the character generation options became a barrier.

Ghostbusters for being the first rules-light narrative RPG, and Ghostbusters II for proving no one wanted that.

Did Ghostbusters 2nd prove that? We played the hell out of the first edition, but the second one was an instant case of buyer's remorse. While Ghostbusters was never hugely popular, I have met a good number of people that loved the first edition, and never met one that cared for the second.

And even though the Ghostbusters line abandoned its rules light model, Over the Edge came along soon after and carried on its model for years to come.

While Ghostbusters was rules light, I don't know if I would call it narrative. That suggest players editing the setting to me. It wasn't physics-based simulationism, but it didn't have any real narrative mechanics either.
 
I played and ran GURPS, and it ran quite smoothly. It was the character generation that ended my use of the game. When I was in high school, playing only with other hardcore nerds, it worked fine. Once I got to college and was recruiting friends I made into gaming, the character generation options became a barrier.
I too played GURPS extensively. And would do again. For me, what ended it was 4th edition. So many options presented in the most impenetrable format. Even if the game was an improvement on 3rd ed in terms of mechanics, in terms of presentation and accessibility, it was a massive step backwards.
 
I think the classics that everyone talks about have been covered pretty well. These are my classics...the ones important or influential to me.

Ysgarth - showed me you could have an RPG that wasn't D&D/Traveller/RuneQuest. Point-based. Crunchy as hell at the time.

Rolemaster - was my introduction to non-restrictive classes (professions.) Any character could learn any skill, but it was easier for some than others.

Skyrealms of Jorune - blown away by the artwork and the concepts. This was the first real SF/Fantasy blend I'd seen.

Torg
- we were very skeptical of the cards, but they rapidly became our favorite part of the game. My introduction to a workable non-dice mechanic.

Harn (HarnMaster)
- was my introduction to a pre-made, richly detailed setting. (I'd never really played in Glorantha.)

CORPS
- the first generic system that really clicked for me. This remains my generic system of choice even after all this time. It reality checks better than any other system I've tried, and Greg Porter explains how the rules work so you can consistently apply them to situations not explicitly covered by the rules.

Over the Edge
- my introduction to the fact that RPGs could not only be weird but embrace that weirdness.

Unknown Armies
- OtE turned up to 11.

Dark Conspiracy
- one of the more popular settings I ran (we used CORPS mechanics), and heavily influenced my future campaigns.

Darkurthe Legends
- setting for one of my most successful fantasy campaigns. We did switch to a customized set of Fudge mechanics that I designed for it, but they were still heavily influenced by the setting. This was influential for me because DL had just the right mix of detail and "white space" that gave me the framework I needed but allowed me to fully customize the setting to meet my needs.

Fudge
- see above. My first experience in building a set of mechanics to do what I needed.
 
Pretty sure both Dallas and FASERIP got there beforehand, although I guess it depends on one's definition of a "narrative rpg"

I'd have to check Dallas (I own a copy that I admit I've never read through fully), but Marvel Superheroes is neither rules-light nor narrative, by the standards of the time.

Did Ghostbusters 2nd prove that?

Pretty much. First edition was chock full of snipes and digs at games that filled their rules with complex encumbrance and move rates for characters (among others). Virtually the first page of Ghostbusters International introduces encumbrance rules and rigid movement rates, and it says in the text that this is because the players of first edition clamored for them.

While Ghostbusters was rules light, I don't know if I would call it narrative. That suggest players editing the setting to me. It wasn't physics-based simulationism, but it didn't have any real narrative mechanics either.

Brownie Points let the players edit the fiction in limited circumstances. It's not purely a narrative game in the sense we mean it today, with explicit player control over the fiction, but more in the sense that the fiction trumps the rules and the players have to interpret the fiction in response to the mechanics, rather than the other way around. The Ghost Die mechanic is not dissimilar to PbtA games in that regard.
 
I'd have to check Dallas (I own a copy that I admit I've never read through fully), but Marvel Superheroes is neither rules-light nor narrative, by the standards of the time.

Are you perhaps thinking of the advanced game? Because I cant imagine anyone thinking the original MSH game was not rules light, the rulebook was 20 pages, heavily illustrated, and the actual rules take up maybe 5 of those pages. Probably 2 pages without all the comicbook panels. As for whether its a narrative game, I don't know what that means in the context of Ghostbusters. GB had its Brownie pts, FASERIP had Karma points. I see both as a natural evolution from 007.
 
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