Resources for a Detective/Noir campaign

Best Selling RPGs - Available Now @ DriveThruRPG.com
Yeah noir is all about making bad choices and too many games don't get that.

"Making bad choices" was the key premise in both the aforementioned "Star Wars noir" games, though they were framed as an NPC close friend of the party getting themselves in trouble and the players seek to salvage the situation. I suspect that sort of device would grow tiresome in an ongoing campaign, but for a one-shot it is a decent compromise method to help capture noir feel.

For one of them I actually used the classic "boxer, at the last minute, choose not to go down in fixed fight" as seen in Daredevil's origin story, Pulp fiction and many other stories.
 
Yeah noir is all about making bad choices and too many games don't get that.
The trick would be to make the bad choices seem like the right or most logical ones to the protagonist.
 
The trick would be to make the bad choices seem like the right or most logical ones to the protagonist.

Not sure about that. The genre thrives on the tension of characters knowing that they are making a mistake and that this cost them, but do so anyway because of it's in their nature.

Mechanically this is hard to support. Self-destructive behaviour doesn't always work well with the notion that a roleplaying game is, in the end, a game. A system like Fate can try to encourage that self-destructive by rewarding self-imposed adversity with meta-currency which in turn will help you succeed later, but personally I that feels tactical play or just colour and takes the sting out of it. Of course that may be the desired effect.
 
Yea, it’s pretty hard to feel like there is a reward when the right choice is just less bad than the wrong choice. Boxer throws, he takes damage to rep and makes himself more tied to a bad element. Chooses to Not go down and he’s beat up and made a lot of enemies. There is no clean choice.
 
A mechanic that rewards the player for making what is a bad choice for the character might work. Like XP.

Maybe have a Vice or Sin stat that’s like a tag. Dames or Booze or Danger… when that tag is relevant, the character tends to not think clearly. Maybe this could involve a roll to resist giving in or something. Or you could just award XP for the player to actually play the character honestly.

The trick is to make the XP worth the fallout the character faces for the bad choice. Some games have pulled this off, so it can be done.
 
A mechanic that rewards the player for making what is a bad choice for the character might work. Like XP.

Maybe have a Vice or Sin stat that’s like a tag. Dames or Booze or Danger… when that tag is relevant, the character tends to not think clearly. Maybe this could involve a roll to resist giving in or something. Or you could just award XP for the player to actually play the character honestly.

The trick is to make the XP worth the fallout the character faces for the bad choice. Some games have pulled this off, so it can be done.
This concept is pretty much the 'GM Intrusions' rule quantified in Cypher System - the tradeoff of receiving on-the-spot extra XP for following detrimental GM suggestions at pivotal times, for the sake of the story and not the character. Cypher also rewards good roleplaying with XP at the end of each session/episode (similar to many trpgs).

Thes two rules are not prescriptive for players, but do help a GM steer the ship regarding direction and tone. Easy enough concept to port over into most systems.

I feel that Cypher is a decent trpg when wanting to evoke a certain theme and immersive mood to a game, in much the same way that Fate Core aims to do (although I find Cypher rules seem to flow easier then Fate Core does).
 
Last edited:
Wasn't there some Fantasy Noir game using Cypher System? Shotguns & Sorcery, apparently based on some novel series.
 
for the sake of the story and not the character.

This bit is an interesting phrase. I absolutely get what you're saying and I agree... but it's interesting to describe something as "not for the sake of the character". That means something a little different for an RPG when compared to a book or a movie or some other fiction.

Characters make bad decisions all the time in fiction. Horrible decisions for themselves and their loved ones and so on.

I think the tension for this in an RPG comes when it's detrimental to the player... or maybe more likely to the other players... that a game may have a problem.

The key is to do so in a way that isn't prescriptive, as you say, but also somehow prevents such bad decisions from ruining the experience for others.

It can be a tricky thing to manage, depending on the goal of the game.
 
Characters make bad decisions all the time in fiction. Horrible decisions for themselves and their loved ones and so on.

I think the tension for this in an RPG comes when it's detrimental to the player... or maybe more likely to the other players... that a game may have a problem.

That got me thinking. If the game being played is meant to be gritty or tactically challenging, you generally don't want player characters to deliberately make bad choices even for genuine in-character reasons. Characters are expected to act in a rational, professional, clinical fashion. As many GM of such games would say, "Stupid gets you killed".

In order to allow players the freedom to make interesting mistakes, the game needs allow for certain amount of slack, the sort of found in the more cinematic action or outright comedy games. No one complains if your character screws up in a Ghostbusters game.

I can see how potentially these two consideration my clash in a noir game. On one hand it is meant to evoke a harsh, unforgiving world, but at the same the genre invites you to create flawed protagonists who often make bad choices.
 
That got me thinking. If the game being played is meant to be gritty or tactically challenging, you generally don't want player characters to deliberately make bad choices even for genuine in-character reasons. Characters are expected to act in a rational, professional, clinical fashion. As many GM of such games would say, "Stupid gets you killed".

In order to allow players the freedom to make interesting mistakes, the game needs allow for certain amount of slack, the sort of found in the more cinematic action or outright comedy games. No one complains if your character screws up in a Ghostbusters game.

I can see how potentially these two consideration my clash in a noir game. On one hand it is meant to evoke a harsh, unforgiving world, but at the same the genre invites you to create flawed protagonists who often make bad choices.

Yeah, for sure. I’d also say that most noir fiction, though not all, involves a single protagonist. Or in some cases, multiple protagonists who are acting individually.

Most RPGs, on the other hand, are a group activity. It’s a little tricky to handle characters prone to self destructive decisions when those decisions may affect the enjoyment of other players.

I had a campaign I ran recently that had some shades of noir in it, and by the end of the campaign, the three PCs who had started off working together were each pretty much on their own. It helps if a game can support that kind of play.
 
Yeah noir is all about making bad choices and too many games don't get that.
I don't think that games can really get it, and this is part of why Noir is maybe more performative that something you can plan for. Only the players, acting in character, can make those Noir decisions, and a lot of players won't. So there's that.
 
Anyone interested in NOIR roleplaying should really check the recently released HARD CITY RPG from Osprey. It is a very neat exercise in genre emulation - the best I've seen so far in this great genre.

 
Anyone interested in NOIR roleplaying should really check the recently released HARD CITY RPG from Osprey. It is a very neat exercise in genre emulation - the best I've seen so far in this great genre.

That is big endorsement coming from you!
 
That is big endorsement coming from you!
Well, indeed I've had a lifelong interest in NOIR RPGs. My very first homebrew RPG (dating back to 1990... argh, how time flies) was called "POLAR" (which, in French, has nothing to do with the North Pole but is a slang term for police-based novels and movies) and some years ago, I ran a long-term, very memorable, Ellroy-like campaign set in the 50s using a variant of the NOIR rpg system from Archon Games... Since then, I've always taken a look at new Noir-genre systems and honestly, the execution of HARD CITY appears quite flawless.

The conventions, codes and lingo of the genre are perfectly reproduced / emulated - and the system is very story-driven, without any excessive narrativist/PbtA leanings. It seems to me a very solid system - one which proves that dedicated systems (if they're well-made) will always work better than generic ones where genre emulation is concerned.
 
Anyone interested in NOIR roleplaying should really check the recently released HARD CITY RPG from Osprey. It is a very neat exercise in genre emulation - the best I've seen so far in this great genre.

I already mentioned this upthread, but the copy I ordered from Book Depository got lost in the mail. I'm still in the process of getting a replacement.
 
This makes me feel like Fiasco would be great for Noir.
Well, that depends on your vision of Noir is really like. FIASCO is a great game and is pretty unbeatable for emulating movies like FARGO or A SIMPLE PLAN - but was never intended to run games in the style of, say, James Ellroy's L.A. Quartet series of novels or things like The Maltese Falcon or the Big Sleep (real NOIR) or even neo-Noir stuff like Frank Miller's SIN CITY.
 
Well you have Streets of Bedlam for Savage Worlds which is basically Sin City.
 
This makes me feel like Fiasco would be great for Noir.

Well two of the stated influences for Fiasco on their website and in the introduction are Blood Simple and A Simple Plan which are both neo-noir. So yes very much so!

Of the other influences Fargo would be a neo noir if it wasn't primarily described as a dark comedy (not a criticism it is a dark comedy). Way of the Gun is a Western and Burn After Reading a farce.
 
Anyone interested in NOIR roleplaying should really check the recently released HARD CITY RPG from Osprey. It is a very neat exercise in genre emulation - the best I've seen so far in this great genre.

Well the art direction and tone looks absolutely perfect: Hard City :shade:
 
Last edited:
I just stumbled across this review, which looks like a collaborative story-game with pockets of crunchy mechanics
It's got a cool tone:
Noirlandia
 
Last edited:
I always find noir can be summed up with the following principles.

Clues are gained in direct relation to injuries sustained.
Player choices are only ever between bad and worse.
And plot momentum is always fuelled by the sudden arrival of gun-toting or cosh wielding adversaries.
 
I always find noir can be summed up with the following principles.

Clues are gained in direct relation to injuries sustained.
Player choices are only ever between bad and worse.
And plot momentum is always fuelled by the sudden arrival of gun-toting or cosh wielding adversaries.

Good principles. I'd add the collary to the first principle that a betrayal can be an injury.
 
I made a list of ten ideas for running good crime/noir games. I'm thinking about sharing it with my group.

1. The Police are Corrupt: Just an obvious thing in the world. The player characters have no one to rely on in this world other than themselves because the police are corrupt, incompetant, or just don't care.

2. Crime comes in Gray and Black: There's plenty of innocent victims driven to crime in the world of Noir but there's a much-much larger bunch of sociopathic assholes. There's nothing preventing you from encountering a vertiable endless number of psychopaths and sadists among the other side of the law.

3. "Respectable" Society isnt: The Suburbs should be as sinister as any other part of the world with its pretty lawns a thin veneer over adultery, abuse, and worse. The Country Clubs are full of corrupt businessmen and racist scumbags. The politicians are, well, everything you'd expect them to be.

4. Antiheroism Pays: Those who try to play the role of the flawless moral paragon will have the satisfaction of a honorable death in a back alley. Vigilante executions, theft, and crooked deals are the only way things get done. How long until you become as bad as those you fight, though?

5. Bittersweet Endings vs. Downer Endings: Completely happy endings are not something to expect in the game and even the best possible ending will usually end with some people getting away with it or a lot of collateral damage.

6. Everyone is a liar: One thing to expect among the game is for habitual misrepresentations of the truth whether you're on the side of the angels or the demons. Everyone has something to hide and digging down is usually the only way to find the truth.

7. Motivations are frequently petty: This is not the genre to find grandiose plans to take over the world. This is a genre where the motivations will tend to be sex, cash, pride, or revenge. The people who want to make their mark by building a freeway or housing developments are usually the worst crooks of them all.

8. Big victories are out, small victories are in: As one and three indicate, institutional and systemic evils are the order of the day. If you bring down a crooked police chief or millionaire, amazing as that may be, it will probably mean nothing in the long run. That doesn't mean its not worth doing but its the small victories of a life saved here and there that save what's left of the noir protagonist's soul.

9. Resources are frequently thin: Unless you are deliberately choosing to play a millionaire, finances will always be tight and something that player characters will have to worry about. It should always be a temptation to take money yourself.

10. Raw and gritty: Find out your players' comfort level for sex, violence, racism, social issues, and so on before going forward. How far you want to go and how much fun you'll have probing the dark side.
 
That list is remarkably close to the list in monster island for a sword and sorcery campaign. Thank you very much! Here is the monster island one. You can see many of the same themes running through it. Quite fascinating

With all credit to tdm and Pete nash.

Living for the Day

Sword & Sorcery adventures are scaled at the personal level. Protagonists are not great heroes and their deeds rarely save the world. Instead they are generally in it for the loot, romance or vengeance. If this seems base or egocentric, then you’ve hit the nail on the head. Whatever they do hardly ever affects anything beyond their immediate locale; a town or battle at most. Their quests are pragmatic rather than epic.

No Black and White Morality

Characters in Sword & Sorcery are generally the antithesis of selfless heroic types. They are usually flawed in some way, whether cowards, sadists, avaricious, misogynistic, misandrous, vengeful, treacherous, lustful, selfish, intolerant and so on. They are not necessarily bad or evil, but definitely have their own codes of honour which might not reflect modern sensibilities.

Healing is Hard

Magical healing is a rarity in Sword & Sorcery, making incessant combat extremely dangerous. Most protagonists heal naturally either during the long travel between hazardous locales, or by resting up in a safe, comfortable place like a tavern. Some care is required using RuneQuest not to stage too many clashes per adventure, or to change the nature of some fights so that enemies attempt to capture rather than kill, or use unarmed combat for minor disagreements (see RuneQuest page 424).

Corrupting Power of Magic

Magic in Sword & Sorcery tends to be a dark, perverted art limited to a few specialist sorcerers, priests, and shamans. Only those willing to make great sacrifices in time and perhaps personal morality have any chance to master it. Whilst not all magic is evil per se, the majority of practitioners tend to become corrupted by its use – psychologically more than physically – whether in the manner of the deals required to learn it, the methods used to cast it, or the power it provides the practitioner over others.

Whilst many claim the genre lacks ‘flashy’ magic, nothing could be further from the truth. There are examples of flaming spheres of death, induced earthquakes, monstrous transformations and even the summoning of demons so huge their galloping hooves crush an entire
nation underfoot. But whatever its source and however it manifests, magic is always time consuming, terrifying and deadly; the latter being why its secrets are long searched for and jealously guarded.

Horror of the Unknown

Many of the places encountered in Sword & Sorcery are, by their very nature, mysterious and disconcerting. This can be due to a variety of reasons, for example the alien architecture of buildings, copious blood stains across altars, or ruins empty of any form of animal life. Those creatures that end up attacking protagonists are similarly ghastly; being giant, savage forms of common animals or weird conjoined chimeras of wildly different species. Even entire tribes or cultures can be horrific because of the inhumane traditions they practice to survive or to placate the gods they worship.

Anthropocentric and Xenophobic

Not only are the protagonists of the Sword & Sorcery genre almost universally human, but the majority of their foes are too. Even if occasional monsters are met, it is often humans who are their underlings or control them. Whilst Monster Island embraces the traditional adversaries of Lizardmen and Serpentfolk as part of its setting, their inherently exotic culture will tend to preclude them as playable races. It is the human colonists who are intended to be the source of player characters.
 
Banner: The best cosmic horror & Cthulhu Mythos @ DriveThruRPG.com
Back
Top