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Skywalker

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Star Wars SAGA is overpriced when you can just get all the RCR books for usually less than half the price and they aren’t the annoying size of the SAGA books. The two systems are not that different.

I played and enjoyed RCR but it a very different ruleset to Saga. RCR runs a lot closer to D&D3.5 whilst Saga has elements from d20 Modern and D&D4. It’s this mix that many people liked and it is generally more well regarded than RCR and it got more comprehensive and even coverage in its supplement lineup.

I never knew that SAGA was that in demand in the aftermarket.

It’s always been in high demand in the secondhand market.
 

EmperorNorton

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KotOR was in high demand on the secondhand market even while it was still a live game. As far as I know it only ever got one print run, and it was the most popular time period outside of rebellion (hell might have been more popular than rebellion), and was published early in the life cycle of the game.

Also, yeah, SAGA was in my opinion the successor to the D20 Modern rules. D20 Modern and SAGA were the best iterations of the d20 system that WotC ever produced. And honestly the only d20 games outside of that that I think were as good or better were True20 and M&M.
 
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chuckdee

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It’s always been in high demand in the secondhand market.
I guess I've been lucky- I've been able to get the main book several times over, and the other books I wanted, I was able to get them for not much more than original price- sometimes less!
 

Skywalker

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That is lucky but there are always exceptions for 2nd hand prices. KOTR and the Starship books are particularly highly demanded.
 

Endless Flight

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KotOR was in high demand on the secondhand market even while it was still a live game. As far as I know it only ever got one print run, and it was the most popular time period outside of rebellion (hell might have been more popular than rebellion), and was published early in the life cycle of the game.

Also, yeah, SAGA was in my opinion the successor to the D20 Modern rules. D20 Modern and SAGA were the best iterations of the d20 system that WotC ever produced. And honestly the only d20 games outside of that that I think were as good or better were True20 and M&M.

I found Modern to be better than SAGA overall. The math was off in SAGA. There were issues in Modern, like the unarmed combat rules that needed to be fixed that were better in SAGA. The condition track wasn’t bad but it wasn’t really necessary in the Star Wars setting.
 

EmperorNorton

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I found Modern to be better than SAGA overall. The math was off in SAGA. There were issues in Modern, like the unarmed combat rules that needed to be fixed that were better in SAGA. The condition track wasn’t bad but it wasn’t really necessary in the Star Wars setting.
I think the only real math problem is SAGA could be solved really simply by just having skill expertise scale with level rather than being a flat bonus. (force powers at low level could get REALLY disproportionately high skill checks that would wreck everything).
 

Endless Flight

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I believe defense scores far exceeded attack bonuses at later levels as well, if I’m not mistaken.
 

EmperorNorton

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I believe defense scores far exceeded attack bonuses at later levels as well, if I’m not mistaken.
I haven't played in forever. I'd have to dig out my old house rules. I wouldn't be surprised if I'd pasted over that somehow as well :tongue:.
 

Skywalker

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I found Modern to be better than SAGA overall. The math was off in SAGA. There were issues in Modern, like the unarmed combat rules that needed to be fixed that were better in SAGA. The condition track wasn’t bad but it wasn’t really necessary in the Star Wars setting.
D20 Modern is good too, but still more rigid than Star Wars SE and it lacked the cinematic combats that Star Wars SE, as a precursor to 4e, managed to achieve.

The math was off, but only really at levels 1-3 and from level 15+, which is true of many 3e derived systems. However, I found it easier to fix in SWSE than earlier 3e systems as its more easy to port concepts from 4e and 5e given SWSE is closer to them. For example, you could just include a 5e proficiency bonus for attack, defences, and skills and the problem would be fixed almost entirely.
 

EmperorNorton

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D6 is probably my "middle" star wars game. I actually like SAGA more, and the FFG Star Wars more. I like D6 a lot better though than all the other D20 iterations. I would never play a game of the first two editions of Star Wars d20 ever again.
 

Skywalker

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I mean, we can argue about this all day. All I know is that it’s not like any of the d20 games were better than D6.
I love WEG D6 1e and SWSE, but I can't really see how they are substitutes unless you run only one flavour of Star Wars. They are both excellent but they also both do different parts of Star Wars better.
 

Gabriel

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Nothing ridiculous about this one. I would actually go for this one if I didn't have some other stuff going on. I have heard of this book, but I have never seen it (not even a picture) of it before:


Edit: Then again, there seems to be a later printing with a different cover of the same thing on Amazon for a hair under $60, so maybe my excitement got the better of me. Still, very obscure little bit of Trek gaming.
 
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TristramEvans

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We were talking about how ridiculous the secondary market has become in one of my Oldhammer groups this morning and someone posted this:

 

xanther

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On the high e-bay prices, I kind of find it a mixed blessing. To me it signals that us geeks have made it, despite all the 1970s and 80s warnings we would never amount to anything and end up living in our parents basements. Also high prices encourage conservation, I hope, that will mean these games will be cared for and survive as a part of our history into the future. Also those of us who say value in this stuff from the beginning have appreciating assets for our old age or to pass on.

The downside is this may limit peoples access to theses games, but these days I would hope there could be a pdf market...where you can get the rules to play at a very decent price.
 

chuckdee

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There was a ridiculously high price for something I really wanted- I messaged the seller even though it wasn't listed as accepting offers, and they accepted a bit over 60% of what they were listing it for as a price.
 

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Noble Knight has apparently the only copy of Genlab Alpha available in the US for $75 plus shipping, despite Free League support assuring me that US distributors have the book in stock. Thats not as outrageous as many of the examples in this thread but still too high a markup. I couldn't talk them down either. Ten percent coupon was their best offer. Bleh.
 

Voros

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Noble Knight has apparently the only copy of Genlab Alpha available in the US for $75 plus shipping, despite Free League support assuring me that US distributors have the book in stock. Thats not as outrageous as many of the examples in this thread but still too high a markup. I couldn't talk them down either. Ten percent coupon was their best offer. Bleh.

Brutal, I got a good deal on my copy off of Amazon.ca a while ago, $60 CAD if I remember right.

At least it is a great book!
 

Ravenswing

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Eh, well, the value of a thing is what someone will pay for it. I remember vividly when the sports card craze hit hockey, about a decade after baseball was consumed by it. In the local sports memorabilia shop in 1989, I saw a complete shrink wrapped Topps 1969-70 National Hockey League set for $80. I thought that wasn't a bad price for several hundred cards, twenty years old, that'd never ever be reprinted, but however much of a hockey fan I was, I figured my wife would kill me if I spent that much on hockey cards. (Unfortunately, her conversion to being a hockey fan would take another year.)

The card set was unsold by the following year, when I noticed it again. The price had jumped. To over a thousand dollars.
 

chuckdee

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There was a ridiculously high price for something I really wanted- I messaged the seller even though it wasn't listed as accepting offers, and they accepted a bit over 60% of what they were listing it for as a price.

So I received the item, and I'm feeling crappy about what I'm doing- mostly because of the way the seller is responding- even though I know I'm right.

The item in question is the Leverage RPG by MWP. He originally had it as $200 with NEW in big letters, and New as the condition.

Ebay's definitions of condition are here: https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/l...ing-listings/item-conditions-category?id=4765

More specifically new condition being defined as: The book is new, unread, and unused in perfect condition with no missing or damaged pages.

I bargained him down to $140, which I thought was fair from what I'd seen on the market for the book, especially if it was new.

I received the item- the cover showed shelf wear, there was a scratch on it, and when I opened it, it was obvious the binding had already been opened. I was getting ready to rate him for it, but decided that I was at least going to give him the chance to make it right.

His response:

I understand after 35 years in the industry that everyone's standards of New are different and I keep that in mind when I list items.
I'm sorry I missed the scratch and shelve wear you mention, Would you like to send it back for a Full refund (including shipping)?

Keep in mind, I'm paying a premium for an item that is hard to find and I said as much- that I wanted the item, I just didn't think it was new and should not have been priced as such. His response:

I willing to offer a further small discount (refund) to you to make you content with your purchase, but I don't believe it warrants too much of one.

He offered a $25 refund which I thought, fair enough- I paid $100 for Supernatural in about the same condition recently (of course, that one was advertised as 'Like New with shelf wear' from the beginning. But just his tone and the "I don't believe it warrants too much of one" really rubbed me the wrong way.
 

Gabriel

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So I received the item, and I'm feeling crappy about what I'm doing- mostly because of the way the seller is responding- even though I know I'm right.

OK, I don't know about the item in question. But I feel I know the experience you're going through.

The way I look at things, when I see an exchange like that, my conclusion is the seller knew exactly about the condition of the book and how it would be received. That was the entire reason they gave you the "deal." That is the entire reason they're willing to provide a further discount to keep you from complaining.

If you keep the item, definitely take the further discount since it was offered without prompting. Remember that what they're doing is trying to avoid a stink or any kind of ebay or paypal claim. If you realize the item in it's current condition is not to your requirements, then return it and insist on a refund. Don't feel guilty, because I think it's fair to say the seller knew exactly what he was doing.
 

chuckdee

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Thanks! That's what I figured, but I don't really like to deal like that so it just feels wrong, even though I know it's right :sad:
 

Bunch

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OK, I don't know about the item in question. But I feel I know the experience you're going through.

The way I look at things, when I see an exchange like that, my conclusion is the seller knew exactly about the condition of the book and how it would be received. That was the entire reason they gave you the "deal." That is the entire reason they're willing to provide a further discount to keep you from complaining.

If you keep the item, definitely take the further discount since it was offered without prompting. Remember that what they're doing is trying to avoid a stink or any kind of ebay or paypal claim. If you realize the item in it's current condition is not to your requirements, then return it and insist on a refund. Don't feel guilty, because I think it's fair to say the seller knew exactly what he was doing.
I don't know if he knew exactly what he was doing and was trying to scam. I take the whole thing as honest disagreement about what New entails. For the merchant he's discounting the hassle a complaint or return would entail and accepting that chuckdee chuckdee has an alternate and also valid definition of what New means. If he's been doing it for ages this is just part of business. Not the seller or the buyers favorite part but something that comes up. Try not to get to personally bothered by the whole thing.
 

chuckdee

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Having worked in a store for a long time, that particular part about years in the business also struck me wrong- I know from that what new means. However, people that deal with a lot of different things and not just books might have a different definition, I suppose.
 

Bunch

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Having worked in a store for a long time, that particular part about years in the business also struck me wrong- I know from that what new means. However, people that deal with a lot of different things and not just books might have a different definition, I suppose.
So I owned a comic/game store and my definition of new is never previously sold. But that doesn't mean someone didn't come into the store and open the book and read it a bit to see if it appeals to them and put it back on the shelf. I've had the distributor delivered it with a scratch in the cover I have a choice. Send it back or try to sell it and see if a customer actually cares. Since my store was strictly in person retail it wasn't a case of trying to screw a customer. They could see exactly what they were buying before deciding to purchase.

It sounds like you have a collector hat on which is a different hat than say average retail customer. It's a valid hat and I have no issue with it. I just think there is "collector new" and I guess what I would call "retail new"

The seller should have noted shelf wear and checked for scratches since this is an online transaction and the onus is on the seller to accurately describe the item. Any failure in that regard is the sellers responsibility.
 

Acmegamer

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Don't know about anyone else, but when I go to ship something I make sure I'm packing it correctly. A part of that packing is looking at the item closely and noting whether or not I need to put something in the packaging, like bubble wrap etc. I'd have damn well noted the damage on the outside and the shelf wear, but that's me I tend to be really persnickety about such things.
 

Bunch

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Don't know about anyone else, but when I go to ship something I make sure I'm packing it correctly. A part of that packing is looking at the item closely and noting whether or not I need to put something in the packaging, like bubble wrap etc. I'd have damn well noted the damage on the outside and the shelf wear, but that's me I tend to be really persnickety about such things.
I notice packaging inspection quality goes down with volume.

Ask anyone who's ever dealt with Diamond how low that quality can go.
 

TristramEvans

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Having worked in a store for a long time, that particular part about years in the business also struck me wrong- I know from that what new means. However, people that deal with a lot of different things and not just books might have a different definition, I suppose.


There's very different definitions depending on the items. Books are graded entirely differently than comic books or trading cards - though they use some of the same words, they have entirely different meanings.
 

Ravenswing

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He offered a $25 refund which I thought, fair enough- I paid $100 for Supernatural in about the same condition recently (of course, that one was advertised as 'Like New with shelf wear' from the beginning. But just his tone and the "I don't believe it warrants too much of one" really rubbed me the wrong way.

My first (and last) purchase of a computer game from Bethesda Softworks was for my Atari ST, where it enclosed disks for a C64 instead. I wrote a letter, got no response, sent another letter a month later, and got a scathing note from the company president claiming that a company in the software business not bothering to reply within a month was well within normal, so suck it up, buttercup.

By contrast, I'm not seeing what's wrong with the guy's tone at all. He apologized for missing the wear, offered you a full refund plus shipping, and went on to offer you a discount if you wanted to keep it. Not a lot of abject groveling, wails of despair at his perfidy, or offers to send you a full refund AND let you keep it, but did you expect that there'd be?
 

chuckdee

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So I owned a comic/game store and my definition of new is never previously sold. But that doesn't mean someone didn't come into the store and open the book and read it a bit to see if it appeals to them and put it back on the shelf. I've had the distributor delivered it with a scratch in the cover I have a choice. Send it back or try to sell it and see if a customer actually cares. Since my store was strictly in person retail it wasn't a case of trying to screw a customer. They could see exactly what they were buying before deciding to purchase.

It sounds like you have a collector hat on which is a different hat than say average retail customer. It's a valid hat and I have no issue with it. I just think there is "collector new" and I guess what I would call "retail new"

The seller should have noted shelf wear and checked for scratches since this is an online transaction and the onus is on the seller to accurately describe the item. Any failure in that regard is the sellers responsibility.

Not even necessarily collector's hat. I got it because I wanted the book in hardcopy, not necessarily to collect it. But there are prices and there are premium prices. To price it at $200 to begin with- he set the stage at a premium collector's item from that price. And then to title it as Leverage The Roleplaying Game *NEW* (HB) Book, and classify it as New by eBay's terms, i.e. Brand New: A new, unread, unused book in perfect condition with no missing or damaged pages sets a certain expectation of condition.

My first (and last) purchase of a computer game from Bethesda Softworks was for my Atari ST, where it enclosed disks for a C64 instead. I wrote a letter, got no response, sent another letter a month later, and got a scathing note from the company president claiming that a company in the software business not bothering to reply within a month was well within normal, so suck it up, buttercup.

By contrast, I'm not seeing what's wrong with the guy's tone at all. He apologized for missing the wear, offered you a full refund plus shipping, and went on to offer you a discount if you wanted to keep it. Not a lot of abject groveling, wails of despair at his perfidy, or offers to send you a full refund AND let you keep it, but did you expect that there'd be?
The condescension in the tone. Perhaps it's just me, but talking about years in the business and different definitions, when the definitions that we should be dealing with are clearly stated, and the price was a premium struck me wrong.

Again, I'm satisfied with the outcome and gave feedback to say the same, but the process didn't feel too good.
 

Endless Flight

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Just dock him a star or two on the review for that issue. A “new” book to me means no huge scratches on the cover, the corners aren’t smashed (lightly dented possibly) and the bottom of the spine isn’t crushed in.
 

Archangel

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Noble Knight has apparently the only copy of Genlab Alpha available in the US for $75 plus shipping, despite Free League support assuring me that US distributors have the book in stock. Thats not as outrageous as many of the examples in this thread but still too high a markup. I couldn't talk them down either. Ten percent coupon was their best offer. Bleh.
Gamenerdz has this is stock now. Are they reputable? Ive never bought from them before (but I'm about to, unless they're shady)
 

Gabriel

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These kind of things irritate me. I know they shouldn't, but they offend me for some reason.

So here's these two modules, which Gary Gygax had absolutely nothing to do with the production of, and which aren't signed or having any direct connection to the gaming celebrity. In fact, they were probably comp copies which Gygax never paid much of any attention to and which got tossed into a storage box and forgotten about.

But let's mark them up to two or three times what they normally go for and provide a certificate stating that "yes, these RPG products were once in the presence of Saint Gary" and sell it on ebay as a collectible.

I mean, if he had pulled a Siembieda during his life and signed it, that would be one thing. It would still be stupid, but at least it would be some actual attachment. But this could easily be, and might as well be, "These two products were once in a game store that Gary Gygax had walked through to ask to use the bathroom on one day in August of 1985. Now this piece of gaming history can be yours!"
 

Aglondir

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Better hurry. That Mage: The Ascension Tarot deck for $474.95 won't last forever.
Or maybe it will. It's been on Ebay for 8 months with zero bids.
 
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