3rik
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It's hilarious in Traveller, though YMMV.Traveller too.
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It's hilarious in Traveller, though YMMV.Traveller too.
Was this a cunning play on words? Weren't the 'Shaken' rules revised in a major way in the Adventurers edition?There were the original and revised versions before Explorer's. Keep in mind, Savage Worlds editions are mostly just minor revisions that remain backward compatible. Adventurer's Edition has been the biggest shake-up so far.
I think they were the controversial change in Deluxe. Given that that all the editions are braodly-compatible in the way that TSR editions of D&D are, I've always viewed the various changes as optional rules that I can mix and match.Was this a cunning play on words? Weren't the 'Shaken' rules revised in a major way in the Adventurers edition?
I guess so. I'd been playing RPGs for 20 years when it came out, with eight of those being spent working in a game store, but it still wasn't enough to have your superior understanding of the hobby.This is true. Absolutely true. And you see it in oh-so-many hobbies: people with a horribly narrow perspective on what's "out there" trumpet something that's ... not particularly innovative as the greatest thing since sliced bread because they're literally ignorant of the width and depth of the hobby they're in.
Also it seems to have done away with double-taps.
I guess so. I'd been playing RPGs for 20 years when it came out, with eight of those being spent working in a game store, but it still wasn't enough to have your superior understanding of the hobby.
At some point they were, but I thought it was before then. Or maybe it was an optional rule that was made standard?
Don't forget, in deadEarth you only get three characters ever!At least you didn't die during character creation. There's a piece of shit game whose name escapes me at the moment, some grimderp post apocalyptic thing, where it's possible to roll such bad stats for your character that he instantly dies.
edit: it's Dead Earth
Yeah, even in my "dump all my vitriol possible on it" review I said there were some good ideas in it.
But I will never forgive a game that forced me to do 7 aggregate hours of character generation just to have three rolled actions before both characters died.
At least you didn't die during character creation. There's a piece of shit game whose name escapes me at the moment, some grimderp post apocalyptic thing, where it's possible to roll such bad stats for your character that he instantly dies.
edit: it's Dead Earth
Although I'm pretty fond of SW & it's the main game that I run, I am pretty unclear on the answer to this question.
Also, one time on another forum, a poster said something to the effect of "How do I get my group to like Savage Worlds? we hate the the exploding die & wild die & playing card-based initiative & long list of combat modifiers."
I refrained from answering, because I'd had a previous interaction w said poster where I gave what I thought was a helpful answer to their question & they thought I was being snarky, but my answer would have been "So, I agree about the long list of combat modifiers... but if your group hates everything that makes Savage Worlds be Savage Worlds... you're probably better off playing something else."
That would be very much sage advise.
I personally don't hate the exploding die nor the wild die. (I may have some quibbles over how often they have impact, but meh. That's a minor issue.) I do number myself among the people who really don't enjoy the playing card initiative, but again it's a minor issue. (Every game without exception has something I don't like!)
What made SW so disappointing to me was a combination of they intense hype surrounding the game (like I said, "the second coming of R. Peez!") with the ... really ... nothing-special system. There was literally nothing (including the card-based initiative system) that I hadn't seen before in some form or another in previous games, and then on top of that the frustrating organization just turned me off entirely.
Without the hype I probably wouldn't have had quite as negative a response. Ditto for having better organization. It was the combination that caused the visceral reaction.
Was this a cunning play on words? Weren't the 'Shaken' rules revised in a major way in the Adventurers edition?
At some point they were, but I thought it was before then. Or maybe it was an optional rule that was made standard?
SWAGE seems to have changed to rules for suppressive fire, making it more likely to damage those caught in it, but otherwise more annoying to PCs and less bothersome to cannon fodder (I think). Also it seems to have done away with double-taps.
Death during character creation is something that I consider an unforgivable design sin. It passes in original Traveler, because no one back then knew any better, but no game since has any excuse for it.
That makes sense, because otherwise you'd be silly to use burst fire when double-taps have the same mechanical effect and use less ammo (and don't need a gun that has the burst option).Those are still there, as I recall, but you have to have an Edge to benefit from them.
And it was also officially made optional in 1981. Actually earlier in some other supplement I think.It also served some purpose there that it often hasn't in more current games (specifically, to discourage going to the well for more terms too often. I still think it was an annoying feature, but then, traditional Traveler character gen is way more random than I have any real toleration for anymore anyway).
That makes sense, because otherwise you'd be silly to use burst fire when double-taps have the same mechanical effect and use less ammo (and don't need a gun that has the burst option).
And it was also officially made optional in 1981. Actually earlier in some other supplement I think.
But yes, death in chargen in Traveller is partly an incentive to not shoot for too many terms. It ALSO officially became a way to dispose of a set of attribute rolls you didn't like (with references to joining the Scouts).
With all of that, if you can't come up with a character you would enjoy playing with 10 minutes of investment (less time than most games with designed characters take), I'm not sure what to say (maybe give it 30 minutes, still less time than a more involved character design system).
I have come to really like random chargen. Of all the games I'm actively playing, Bushido is the only one with designed characters (and even there you roll social standing and a couple other things). My Gloranthan RuneQuest campaign uses 1dt edition previous experience which even gives you random skills and magic. But I'm always happy to work with a player who isn't happy with what the random generation gives them, but these days, I find plenty of folks who are interested in the old school games are also happy to have some (or a lot of) randomness in their character generation.Yeah, you just were booted out after an injury as I recall.
Well, swordbushing was a thing for that with crap attribute rolls well before then.
I just don't see it as necessary in the first place. You have to see some virtue to random character gen out the gate to want to go through those. There are more current versions that avoid the whole (or most of) song and dance, and that's fine with me.
I have come to really like random chargen. Of all the games I'm actively playing, Bushido is the only one with designed characters (and even there you roll social standing and a couple other things). My Gloranthan RuneQuest campaign uses 1dt edition previous experience which even gives you random skills and magic. But I'm always happy to work with a player who isn't happy with what the random generation gives them, but these days, I find plenty of folks who are interested in the old school games are also happy to have some (or a lot of) randomness in their character generation.
I agree, though for me it's more that I always liked it. I've never enjoyed games where character generation is a matter of coming up with the most advantageous 'build,' or the most cost-effective expenditure of points, or the optimal set of advantages and flaws. I don't mind games that reward knowledge of the rules or system (though in general they aren't my favorites) but I'd prefer that to be after the character has been created, not before and during.I have come to really like random chargen...
I agree, though for me it's more that I always liked it. I've never enjoyed games where character generation is a matter of coming up with the most advantageous 'build,' or the most cost-effective expenditure of points, or the optimal set of advantages and flaws. I don't mind games that reward knowledge of the rules or system (though in general they aren't my favorites) but I'd prefer that to be after the character has been created, not before and during.
The problem with build systems is that all too often there's really one optimal build and everything else is subpar.
The thing about optimisation, is that once certain design assumptions are ingrained it just becomes the most efficient way to build the character I want especially as point buy character creation involves compromise anyway (you almost never have enough points to build exactly the character you envisage.)
Say I'm playing one of the White Wolf games. I want to be good at combat and have a bunch of other skills. It's only good sense when compromising to max out my combat at the start of the game and look to pick up any additional skills I miss out on as a result once the game begins.
There will never be balance between all the characters. Even if every character is mechanically exactly the same, the way one player plays their character will be more effective within the game than another.
Build systems attempt to balance out different character types, and usually work OK IF the game and the players are amendable to different character types having different roles.
The same thing is true of random generation.
And both methods can produce dud characters. A build system with much in the way of choice is going to have choices that are less optimal (even if it is simply less optimal for the campaign being run). Random generation of course can generate hopeless characters.
Ultimately the fix is to allow players to create a new character, or tweak the character they have. Tweaking can be done with random generation just as easily as with a character build. Also, the GM can tune the campaign to the characters that were created.
Some players like to play the challenge presented and those players do best with a more random system, otherwise in a build system they might be best off with playing a pregen or other character created by someone else.
I agree with that. One thing I've tried in the past, with moderate success, is to let players do some of their point buy during the first few sessions.
Yeah, I don't think that Vampire et al are fair examples of point build systems because of how badly they implement it. (Linear/progressive combo is the main one, but there's also big issues like not making it clear up front to new players how vital having the right abilities is to discipline use or the fact that the generation merit is far better than any other for the same cost).Well, the extremely dim "Linear build, progressive advancement" there doesn't help; the dumbest thing to do in that kind of system is try for any sort of generalist approach at start. Its a problem with every game that does that sort of thing, just because everyone is unwilling to make advancement slow enough that linear/linear doesn't work, but also can't be bothered/ is afraid to put in a couple tables so progressive/progressive can't be done.
I've also used the method of letting people juggle some of their points after the first session. If they get rid of a skill, it's probably because they never used it anyway, so it rarely involves retconning anything from the first session.I agree with that. One thing I've tried in the past, with moderate success, is to let players do some of their point buy during the first few sessions.