RPGs: hall of shame

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robiswrong

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I scanned the sections that should cover the concepts I've had trouble understanding... and I still don't.

What's wrong with me? Not a rhetorical question. I must have a serious mental block. Fate has never "clicked" for me, and I've got so many of the books, hoping that each one would better uncover the secret.

Just when I think I've got it, someone on a forum goes "...but THIS part here doesn't make sense" and then my mental house of cards falls apart and I have to start all over again.

What is so unique about Fate that I struggle so hard to keep a fragile comprehension of it? So easily destroyed by a new argument?
So, like, I wrote the Book of Hanz. It was basically a series of Google+ posts I made when I went through that exact same curve.

The problem I had basically boiled down to a few things:

1. Differing procedures in non-obvious ways
2. Things that looked similar to what I'd expect in other games, but just didn't actually work like that.

I'd be happy to answer your questions and try to explain things if you'd like. Publicly, if you want to spawn a thread that's cool, via DM, whatever.

Also, keep in mind that I don't think it was written particularly clearly, and as such a lot of people interpret things differently. I'd pick a few people as "guideposts" (I humbly suggest myself, Michael Moceri, Richard Bellingham are some of the more active ones) and check with their interpretations, while giving less weight to random disagreements.
 

AsenRG

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I feel the same about a silly number of classes or feats :smile: but consider all that a matter of taste...one person's silly is another's fulsome options.
Indeed!

The only game that come immediately to mind with zero redeeming value is FATAL...but never bought it, just read a few pages of the rules. My therapist says I should be able to recover from that reading in just 4 dozen more sessions :smile:
You got impacted worse than me, and I read the whole fucking thing:shock:!

7th Sea 2nd edition for me.

I didn't get through the setting chapters at the front of the book.

Let's grab the Arthurian period, the Viking era and the Thirty Years War and mix it all together.

Why not throw in North America with cowboys, independence war and prohibition at the same time? Or a Communist eastern nation with huge production facilities, wuxia fighting and ninjas? I get rule of cool, but it's just jarring.

I didn't even make it to the actual rules before it was been shelved, not impressed.
Funny, John Wick would probably tell you that this is the point...

And doubly funny, I almost started writing an RPG once, where the setting was literally :"a Communist Eastern European nation with huge production facilities, wuxia fighting and ninjas". I think I got to page 5 before I realized that this is a waste of time:grin:!

Like I said, it's a mish-mash. What if wire-fu Achilles had a buster sword and magic sunlight powers? What if wire-fu Hercules had magic earth powers and the sorcery to summon demon bodyguards. What happens when they both want the same magic house? Will they put aside their differences team up to fight wire-fu Sauron and his Black Cauldron?

It was crazy, and glorious, and inspired by whatever anime you wanted. But mainly it was inspired that one anime with that one scene where one of the heroes did that thing that was so badass and crazy everyone in the living room was either cheering or shouting, "Holy shit, did you see that?"
Yup. And I like it how your solution to the issues with Exalted was exactly the same as what I reached on the second go...:shade:

But here's the deep secret: the magic of Exalted and why it stayed so popular isn't the Charms system, or the setting, or the fiction blurbs between the chapters. The beating heart of Exalted is the stunt mechanic.
And that's why Feng Shui 2 is a better system for Exalted than Exalted is ever going to be:thumbsup:!
I ran Exalted 1e for a year of weekly sessions. It was a very successful campaign and it just about killed me for exactly the reasons you describe. Since there were no shortcuts, I just bit the bullet and cranked out Exalted opponents by the bushel.

The climax of the campaign feature a giant battle played out on my living room floor between the Solar PCs and their army and a circle of Abyssal Exalted and their even larger army. I threw in nearly every damned thing in the books: Warstriders, Thousand-Forged Dragon, Thousand Corpse War Frame, you name it. I think it took us two entire sessions to play out.

I don't regret it, but any time the players ask me to run a sequel, my immediate response is, "Nope." Looking back, I have no idea how I had that much free time.
...you should try a different system:angel:!

Disclaimer: I haven't read Exalted 3rd, so I don't know if this is the same or different from Exalted: Essence.
In Essence, dice pools do not explode. You roll (Attribute + Ability + modifiers) dice. Which, as far as I can see, can still go in the high tens for high powered characters (absolute max dice add from any combination of effects is +10 to a single pool, and max +5 successes).
7, 8 and 9 count as one success. 10 count as two. There are a bunch of effects which can make 9, 8 etc. also count as two successes.



Three attributes instead of 9. 14 abilities instead of 25.

Charms still occupy the biggest part of the book (Charms + Martial Arts + Sorcery = approx 180 pages out of 416, and keep in mind it's pure text with no art in it yet), but on the other hand, this gives you every ability for every Exalted type (Solars, Lunars, DBs etc. including the more exotic ones like Liminals and Getimians).
They are divided into two main types: universal and type-specific. The universal charms give a basic effect, and then most of them have "modes" which are essentially free bonus effects for a specific Exalted type. Some have only modes for a few types, others have a different mode for every Exalt.

[classic example: Ox-Body gives you an additional -1 health level. If you're Solar/Abyssal/Infernal ("Solar Mode"), it also gives you either an additional 0 or two -1 health levels (player's choice). If you're Lunar, it gives you one more -1 and one -2 health level. And so on.]

This whole thing makes for a greatly reduced list of exceptions to remember.


Two types of attacks: Withering attacks let you build Power. When you have enough Power accumulated (at least enough to overcome target's Hardness), you switch to Decisive attacks which actually do damage (if they hit; if you miss, you only spend one Power).
Gambits are special attacks for when you want to do other stuff than just skewer your enemy (disarm, trip etc.). You still need Power to do them.

"Ventures" are what everyone else would call "extended actions". In there you find stuff for crafting (from trinkets to manses), traveling (if needed for e.g. time critical actions), intelligence gathering, or social/diplomatic actions like guiding organizations, intrigue etc. Plenty of examples, and I like how this touches on something Godbound did and which was sorely missing in Exalted (how do I actually change the setting instead of just punching supermonsters into the face). Godbound is still clearly superior, though (disclaimer: I'm a Crawford's fanboy).


Tl, dr: my first impression is that Essence greatly reduces useless mechanical creep while mantaining most of the Exalted feel. That said, it still is nowhere near a light or even middle-crunch system, it still works as a giant list of exceptions, and Godbound still does everything Exalted does, and much more still, with less than 1/10 of the effort required from both the GM and the players.
But then, it would be unfair to ask that of Essence, as that was never its purpose.
...you're about to get me to buy this thing:gunslinger:!

I've been maintaining since my TBP days that this is what Exalted should have been like.

So the choices for my next Exalted campaign are Essence, Mythras Destined, and Feng Shui 2. Well, that's gonna be tough:skeleton:!
 

Gabriel

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How about Darksword Adventures for the hall of shame?

I remember getting it, reading it, getting a couple of people together so we could make characters. I have dim memories of trying both to run it and to play it.

And then very deliberately never doing anything with it again.

I don't recall anything about the experience or the engine. I just have the memory of the sense the effort was not worth the time. And this was when I was 18 when I would eagerly spend lots of time on barely playable shit, half of which I had written myself.

I remember there being a lot of time spent in the book on all kinds of hand symbols to replicate dice rolls. The idea was that both players would make these hand signals secretly, then reveal them. The difference between the numbers would be determined and that would be used to cross reference a chart. Some time back, someone observed you could just use a die roll. I don't know if I could break free of my literalism enough back then to realize that. I think we actually tried to do the number sign language BS.
 

AsenRG

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How about Darksword Adventures for the hall of shame?

I remember getting it, reading it, getting a couple of people together so we could make characters. I have dim memories of trying both to run it and to play it.

And then very deliberately never doing anything with it again.

I don't recall anything about the experience or the engine. I just have the memory of the sense the effort was not worth the time. And this was when I was 18 when I would eagerly spend lots of time on barely playable shit, half of which I had written myself.

I remember there being a lot of time spent in the book on all kinds of hand symbols to replicate dice rolls. The idea was that both players would make these hand signals secretly, then reveal them. The difference between the numbers would be determined and that would be used to cross reference a chart. Some time back, someone observed you could just use a die roll. I don't know if I could break free of my literalism enough back then to realize that. I think we actually tried to do the number sign language BS.
I suspect it's simply a matter of nobody else knowing it existed...:grin:
 

Torque2100

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Wait...what? What was wrong with Cthulhutech? I've never heard of it being "infamously bad"
CTech suffers from some of the same problems Mutant Chronicles had. CTech has a fun setting, but fumbles the execution IMHO.

The rules are just not good. The Dice Poker rolling mechanic sounds neat on paper but really bogs down the game in practice as you have to run through a mental checklist "okay highest individual die, or is it doubles added together higher? Or do I have a straight?" I also think that it can lead to situations where you are more likely to get better rolls at a lower skill level.

The way Damage works feels like an attempt to reach a compromise between HP and Wound Level mechanics that just ends up being the worst of both worlds. All characters have a HP stat, but it only represents your HP per level. There are 5 health levels which have to be individually tracked. In practice this means that even basic mooks have absurdly high HP totals that just becomes a chore to keep track of. The damage scaling rules between humans and mecha quickly lead to a RIFTs esque problem where just about everything can turn your PC into greasy smears on the ground with one hit. This was a double-huge problem because most Power Armor suits used Mecha-scale damage.

I feel like the game really fumbled the execution of various supernatural abilities. TAGERs are a really cool concept in theory, but in practice they end up being boring. Each TAGER is a fixed class with abilities that do not change. TAGERs also cannot install cyberware. As a result, TAGER PCs end up being extremely static. This clashes with their fluff a bit, I think a system where the PCs can choose abilities from a grab bag or design their own TAGER symbiotes would have been more interesting.

Sorcerers fall into a similar trap. Their magic requires rituals and hours of concentration which makes Magic basically worthless in combat. I get why this was done: it does mirror how magic is portrayed in Call of Cthulhu, but CthulhuTech has an entirely different game with an entirely different play-pattern. Forcing Sorcerers to spend hours preparing spells sucks all of the fun out of playing one.

The "adventures" published for CTech were just horribly written. Barely any NPC stats. No maps, do details, no handouts, just a bullet point list of things that must happen or the Plot breaks down.

I might as well address the 800lb gorilla in the corner: the Hentai sex stuff. I get what the author was trying to do there. Anime can do sexual horror really well. I am a lifetime fan of the Alien franchise and those movies are about a species of killer penises from outer space, so I do love some well-done sexual horror.

I still think CTech's execution of sexual horror was really poor.

A prime example of this being the infamous Horny -AHEM- Horned Ones. They actually had a pretty neat concept. I get what the author was trying to do: make a subversion of the anime Kemonomimi archetype, but it just badly misfired. It really doesn't fit with the image of the twisted, Bronze-Age fertility cult that makes Shub-Niggurath worship so creepy. IMHO if the Horned Ones' design had been less big-titted hentai girl and more Venus of Willendorf and if they'd had some other motivation, some other method of attack besides "save vs sex" they would have been more interesting.

No argument that Big Purple did Matthew Grau dirty, but my criticism still stands.
 
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lategamer

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CTech suffers from some of the same problems Mutant Chronicles had. CTech has a fun setting, but fumbles the execution IMHO.

My problem with Cthulhutech, and I got all the hardbacks, was that it wasn't a lot of fun to read. As a result I completely missed....

I still think CTech's execution of sexual horror was really poor.

A prime example of this being the infamous Horny -AHEM- Horned Ones. They actually had a pretty neat concept. I get what the author was trying to do: make a subversion of the anime Kemonomimi archetype, but it just badly misfired. It really doesn't fit with the image of the twisted, Bronze-Age fertility cult that makes Shub-Niggurath worship so creepy. IMHO if the Horned Ones' design had been less big-titted hentai girl and more Venus of Willendorf and if they'd had some other motivation, some other method of attack besides "save vs sex" they would have been more interesting.

Aye, I'd have gone with Sheel-Na-Gig but you're right.
 

Gabriel

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A prime example of this being the infamous Horny -AHEM- Horned Ones. They actually had a pretty neat concept. I get what the author was trying to do: make a subversion of the anime Kemonomimi archetype, but it just badly misfired.

Reading along, but not being familiar with Cthulhutech at all, this little bit got me curious. So I did a google search for what was being referred to.

<George Takei>Oh My!</George Takei>

I particularly like the bit in the description of "Please modify your Horned Ones appropriately." I dunno. I'm sold on the foxgirl front and center in the illustration.
 

The Convenient Skill

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I scanned the sections that should cover the concepts I've had trouble understanding... and I still don't.

What's wrong with me? Not a rhetorical question. I must have a serious mental block. Fate has never "clicked" for me, and I've got so many of the books, hoping that each one would better uncover the secret.

Just when I think I've got it, someone on a forum goes "...but THIS part here doesn't make sense" and then my mental house of cards falls apart and I have to start all over again.

What is so unique about Fate that I struggle so hard to keep a fragile comprehension of it? So easily destroyed by a new argument?
Have you read FATE 2.0?

I find that is the best basis for starting to understand Aspects (or at least that's where I came from).

It's pretty much Fudge with a very select way of Aspects working, from there you can see the evolution (and bloat IMHO).
 

Necrozius

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Have you read FATE 2.0?

I find that is the best basis for starting to understand Aspects (or at least that's where I came from).

It's pretty much Fudge with a very select way of Aspects working, from there you can see the evolution (and bloat IMHO).
Yeah that was my starting point, and why I bought Fate Core. I thought I had it all figured out and then some RPG bloggers of some renown shattered my world view.
 

chuckdee

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How about Darksword Adventures for the hall of shame?

I remember getting it, reading it, getting a couple of people together so we could make characters. I have dim memories of trying both to run it and to play it.

And then very deliberately never doing anything with it again.

I don't recall anything about the experience or the engine. I just have the memory of the sense the effort was not worth the time. And this was when I was 18 when I would eagerly spend lots of time on barely playable shit, half of which I had written myself.

I remember there being a lot of time spent in the book on all kinds of hand symbols to replicate dice rolls. The idea was that both players would make these hand signals secretly, then reveal them. The difference between the numbers would be determined and that would be used to cross reference a chart. Some time back, someone observed you could just use a die roll. I don't know if I could break free of my literalism enough back then to realize that. I think we actually tried to do the number sign language BS.
It barely qualifies as an RPG
 

robiswrong

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Yeah that was my starting point, and why I bought Fate Core. I thought I had it all figured out and then some RPG bloggers of some renown shattered my world view.
Who, and what did they say?

There is a very vocal contingent of people that assert Fate must be played in a "hyper-narrative" style. THat's not true, and even the author/publisher has stated as such.
 

Necrozius

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Who, and what did they say?

There is a very vocal contingent of people that assert Fate must be played in a "hyper-narrative" style. THat's not true, and even the author/publisher has stated as such.
Mostly it goes around the misunderstanding "aspects are always true, but you need to spend a Fate point to benefit from them mechanically" or "to get Fate points, you have to have bad stuff happen to you, creating a predictable cycle that takes you OUT of the fiction".

My understanding goes back and forth about this. What doesn't help is when people, unintentionally or otherwise, make strawman arguments with awful examples of Aspects (e.g. Most Powerful Man in the Universe) to show how things don't work.

Those conversations (some in bad faith) scramble my brain.
 

Yoh-01

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My most recent disappointment was Star Trek Adventures.

I was really excited at the prospect of finally running Star Trek games. I bought all the books that had been published up to the one before the Klingon rulebook. So a lot of money got spent. Plus some of the hard to find dice.

Then I managed to run three different games, one online and two IRL, and with three different gaming groups, with players who also knew the rules. But it never caught up, neither with me, nor with my players. The rules didn't give us the Star Trek feeling we were expecting.

So I got so disappointed that I rage-sold the whole lot for a 3rd of its retail price, with most of them being still brand new and unopened, even ending up giving a discount (selling a RPG line in English when some of the books are already translated in French is a bit tough to be honest).

Oh, and just to be clear: I've got nothing against this game. It just didn't do it to me and the 15 players who were with me.
 
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robiswrong

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Mostly it goes around the misunderstanding "aspects are always true, but you need to spend a Fate point to benefit from them mechanically"
To get a bonus, yes, you have to invoke them. That's becasue invokes are way too big to be "normal" bonuses as modeled in most games. A +2 is huge. It deliberately shifts the results. It's a big swing, and supposed to be.

There's also some misunderstanding of what aspects are.

But aspects can absolutely have an impact, just not typically in the "you get a bonus" way. They can make things possible, or not possible. They can also justify higher levels of passive opposition, which I personally allow to stack with active opposition/defense in a "you get the best of the two" way. (That's weakly supported, but was an explicit rule in DFRPG).
or "to get Fate points, you have to have bad stuff happen to you, creating a predictable cycle that takes you OUT of the fiction".
I really dislike an over emphasis on the "Fate Point economy". Mostly, in my games, you get Fate Points via refresh or by Conceding out of conflicts - which is usually less "oh I'm out of points" and more "oh, you know what, I don't really think this is worth it." In that way it's almost like willpower to an extent? In some ways, though, not all.

Compels are comparatively rare.
My understanding goes back and forth about this. What doesn't help is when people, unintentionally or otherwise, make strawman arguments with awful examples of Aspects (e.g. Most Powerful Man in the Universe) to show how things don't work.
A lot of those are also things that should just be shut down. Like, is it even reasonable to have that as an aspect? Fate very much works on the "it's not our job to police antisocial behavior" philosophy - if something doesn't make sense in the game, don't allow it. You don't need a rule to back that up.

"Well, what if I'm the Best Swordsman In The World" but have a Fight of +0???" "Uh, you stop being a jackass, or you tell me what that means to you."

Some of it is from applying aspects to areas where there are better tools - if you want to be a good swordsman, that's a job for a skill. The aspect in that case might be about reputation, standing, etc. related to being a swordsman, but shouldn't be about your actual ability, fundamentally.
Those conversations (some in bad faith) scramble my brain.
Understandably. They frustrate the hell out of me, and I've got a pretty defined view of the game. I can't imagine what they'd do to someone that was trying to figure this crap out.
 

Necrozius

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"Well, what if I'm the Best Swordsman In The World" but have a Fight of +0???" "Uh, you stop being a jackass, or you tell me what that means to you."
Yeah I've called out someone about this specifically. "Unbeatable speed racer" with no Driving skill... I mean.. what? How does that work? But some people have made up their minds and can't be budged.

I mean, I'm guilty of this too.
 

Zadmar

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I remember there being a lot of time spent in the book on all kinds of hand symbols to replicate dice rolls. The idea was that both players would make these hand signals secretly, then reveal them. The difference between the numbers would be determined and that would be used to cross reference a chart. Some time back, someone observed you could just use a die roll. I don't know if I could break free of my literalism enough back then to realize that. I think we actually tried to do the number sign language BS.

The optional rule for hand signals was a bit weird, but it only took up 3 pages (in a 437-page mass-market paperback), so I just ignored it. I assume it was added for marketing purposes, in case the reader didn't have any d10s.

I wouldn't play (or recommend) Darksword Adventures these days, for a variety of reasons, but I think it was the first RPG I'd read that had freeform magic, and I remember taking it off my bookshelf a few times for inspiration when I started designing my own freeform magic systems. It was also the first time I'd seen an RPG with the concept of "partial success".
 

burbles

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To get a bonus, yes, you have to invoke them. That's becasue invokes are way too big to be "normal" bonuses as modeled in most games. A +2 is huge. It deliberately shifts the results. It's a big swing, and supposed to be.

There's also some misunderstanding of what aspects are.

But aspects can absolutely have an impact, just not typically in the "you get a bonus" way. They can make things possible, or not possible. They can also justify higher levels of passive opposition, which I personally allow to stack with active opposition/defense in a "you get the best of the two" way. (That's weakly supported, but was an explicit rule in DFRPG).

I really dislike an over emphasis on the "Fate Point economy". Mostly, in my games, you get Fate Points via refresh or by Conceding out of conflicts - which is usually less "oh I'm out of points" and more "oh, you know what, I don't really think this is worth it." In that way it's almost like willpower to an extent? In some ways, though, not all.

Compels are comparatively rare.

A lot of those are also things that should just be shut down. Like, is it even reasonable to have that as an aspect? Fate very much works on the "it's not our job to police antisocial behavior" philosophy - if something doesn't make sense in the game, don't allow it. You don't need a rule to back that up.

"Well, what if I'm the Best Swordsman In The World" but have a Fight of +0???" "Uh, you stop being a jackass, or you tell me what that means to you."

Some of it is from applying aspects to areas where there are better tools - if you want to be a good swordsman, that's a job for a skill. The aspect in that case might be about reputation, standing, etc. related to being a swordsman, but shouldn't be about your actual ability, fundamentally.

Understandably. They frustrate the hell out of me, and I've got a pretty defined view of the game. I can't imagine what they'd do to someone that was trying to figure this crap out.
You don't want to rewrite the rulebook from scratch do you?

If some of these things had been stated explicitly up front, I suspect a lot of confusion may have been avoided.

I wouldn't have got excited about the system, but at least I would have understood what it was trying to do and how.....
 

BedrockBrendan

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The optional rule for hand signals was a bit weird, but it only took up 3 pages (in a 437-page mass-market paperback), so I just ignored it. I assume it was added for marketing purposes, in case the reader didn't have any d10s.

I wouldn't play (or recommend) Darksword Adventures these days, for a variety of reasons, but I think it was the first RPG I'd read that had freeform magic, and I remember taking it off my bookshelf a few times for inspiration when I started designing my own freeform magic systems. It was also the first time I'd seen an RPG with the concept of "partial success".

I remember liking the freeform magic in Darksword. I never ran it as a GM, but was a player in a short dark sword campaign (didn't read the books either, so couldn't evaluate how well it brought the setting to life).
 

Zadmar

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I remember liking the freeform magic in Darksword. I never ran it as a GM, but was a player in a short dark sword campaign (didn't read the books either, so couldn't evaluate how well it brought the setting to life).
I was a fan of the Darksword novels before I picked up Darksword Adventures, so for me, one of the big draws was that Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman had written both the novels and the RPG. The book gave quite a lot of background information about the setting and characters, and that was another major selling point for me (I also did the same with their DragonLance books, reading first the novels and then DragonLance Adventures).
 

Sharrow

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I don't think I've been so disappointed with a game that I've sold it because of the disappointment.

However, I was very much let down by Exalted 1e back in the day. I was told it had the 'fixed' version of WW's game engine, so unlike VtM, WtA, etc. the game engine actually worked, and that it was awesome. The premise sounded good, people I know all said it was great, etc.

So I buy and read the thing. Yes, the setting was cool, and the fiction evocative. I can see a huge range of potential gaming opportunities, etc., right there in the core rulebook. There's enough stuff in the way of charms and spells that I won't have to buy splats right away to get a playable game (unlike some of the previous WW games). The core system is indeed mostly de-crufted and looks like it won't deliver the fucked-up probability curves VtM, etc. had.

Then comes the let down. It's a mechanically complex system. Fine, I'm okay with those, that's my end of the spectrum. But the charms. Arrrrgh. Badly designed. Terrible balance. Some that are going to be gotchas for new players. Some that are probably traps even for long-time players of crunch-heavy games. Many that were clearly done by someone who didn't believe in maths and just eyeballed them. I realised that before I could present this game to my group as an option I'd have to create a lot of characters so I could test the charms and fix a whole bunch of them just so the game would work (and the resident munchkins wouldn't exploit all hell out of stuff).

Sure, a lot of people made it work, found it fine, and loved the game. But I couldn't. If you can't handle high-crunch systems, you shouldn't be writing rules-heavy content for them. Use a lighter system, or get someone who groks it to do the mechanical bits for you.

More recently I've bounced off Savage Worlds several times. Aside from not being a fan of meta-currency, there are a number of what I see as egregious errors in the weapon lists, and I just can't unsee them and that ruins the game for me.
 

PrivateEye

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I'm going to nominate The MEGA Role-Playing System


I had a copy back in 1987 and it was terrible. If I remember correctly, every skill worked differently, and (I think) there were 3 different types of hit/stun/blood points.

I never understood it well enough to feel able to run it...
 

AsenRG

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More recently I've bounced off Savage Worlds several times. Aside from not being a fan of meta-currency, there are a number of what I see as egregious errors in the weapon lists, and I just can't unsee them and that ruins the game for me.
Can't you just fix those? That should be way easier than fixing Exalted:thumbsup:?
 

ffilz

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I'm going to nominate The MEGA Role-Playing System


I had a copy back in 1987 and it was terrible. If I remember correctly, every skill worked differently, and (I think) there were 3 different types of hit/stun/blood points.

I never understood it well enough to feel able to run it...
I had Mega. It looked pretty. A little reading suggested that it wasn't something very useful. I sold it... (but oops, forgot to include the GM screen, so I have a random Mega GM screen...). This was an example of a game that was probably really cool for the author and his friends, but with almost no support (though it did at least have an adventure), it was going to be hard to use. Now granted, I'm running a game that has even less support (Cold Iron) but I got into it in college when a bunch of folks were starting their own campaigns, so there were lots of ideas floating around. And it's actually pretty simple to stat up new creatures, so between learning the game from playing with others, and relatively simple monster stats, I was able to master the system and now I'm so comfortable with the system that I've hacked it for samurai adventures from a pseudo-medieval European game. So in theory, I could also do the same with something like Mega. But it would be a lot of work to learn a system without others to lean on. And I don't recall what it's critters were like, and how complete a spell list it had and such.
 

Sharrow

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Can't you just fix those? That should be way easier than fixing Exalted:thumbsup:?
Sure, but it makes me wonder what else is wrong that I haven't seen. And that would still leave the metacurrency, and the economy based on it.
 

KrakaJak

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Exalted 3e:
Chalk me up as another Exalted casualty. For me, it was 3e. I had a real good time co-running a 6 month or so campaign of Exalted 2e, but the amount of time and effort that game took to run gave me some form of PTSD. When they announced 3e, they stated the intent was to streamline the game.

Technically they did, but not in any way where I would call Exalted 3e a "streamlined" game. It's more like the complexity was just shifted around in a 2 steps forward, 2 steps back situation.

I attempted to run Exalted in FATE, but as soon as a player asked about how some esoteric (IMO) system would work....my PTSD kicked in and I noped out. I backed Exalted Essence anyway, and I may give Exalted another go when it comes out, but...who knows? I get itchy even thinking about it.


4e D&D:
After reading that Star Wars: Saga Edition was a testing ground for potential 4e mechanics and ideas, I was pretty excited. I really liked Saga Edition as an RPG and was looking forward to see how D&D 4e approached it.. As more and more info was coming for 4e, I lost faith in the direction 4e was taking. I still gave 4e the old college try, but it ended up flat , living up to my low expectations. I could never enjoy myself playing 4e, even casually. My core gaming group really took to 4e though....so it had the added effect of having me self-ostracize myself from the group I had been playing D&D with for 15 or so years at the time, because I didn't want to be sour-ass on game night.
 

CT_Phipps

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For me, EXALTED had the premise of the idea that the game would let you off the chain when so many other gamelines seemed determiend to railroad you.
The promise of Exalted is this:

* You are the heroes.
* You are the most powerful people on Earth.
* You have the power to go overthrow the evil Overlord and kill him at near starting adventure time.
* It will be HARD but you can utterly change the face of creation and permanently. End slavery? Conquer the Empire? Build a time machine? Your Exalted can do the impossible.
* All the major baddies are killable.
* Cool mecha
* Cool magictech
* A sexy adult anime martial arts/Final fantasy world

It did not live up to this promise.
 

AsenRG

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For me, EXALTED had the premise of the idea that the game would let you off the chain when so many other gamelines seemed determiend to railroad you.
The promise of Exalted is this:

* You are the heroes.
* You are the most powerful people on Earth.
* You have the power to go overthrow the evil Overlord and kill him at near starting adventure time.
* It will be HARD but you can utterly change the face of creation and permanently. End slavery? Conquer the Empire? Build a time machine? Your Exalted can do the impossible.
* All the major baddies are killable.
* Cool mecha
* Cool magictech
* A sexy adult anime martial arts/Final fantasy world

It did not live up to this promise.
It delivered it all on my table, except the cool mecha, magitech, and time machines...which I never wanted:thumbsup:.
 

CT_Phipps

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It delivered it all on my table, except the cool mecha, magitech, and time machines...which I never wanted:thumbsup:.

I understand but given the choice between the Sun being a transforming mecha and a gas ball, its a transforming mecha.

It fights Unicron.
 

AsenRG

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I understand but given the choice between the Sun being a transforming mecha and a gas ball, its a transforming mecha.

It fights Unicron.
The excluded middle called and it was sad. Why are you excluding Middle:devil:?

As an example, my sun is an avatar of the Unconquered Sun, or often, a spirit who got the task delegated*, since avatars take Too Much Work for the US. Either way, the Delegated Sun is riding the Sun Chariot across the sky, spreading the sun's rays and warmth:grin:!
Rumours that Solars Exalt most often on the rare days when the US himself deigns to take the role are entirely unfounded and should be dismissed, Sidereal loremasters assure, after conducting an in-depth statistical analysis. Any deviation is within the statistical error, they say!
(They are right. It's only true for the Zenith-aspected Exaltations! And Nights Exalt less often when the US himself is running the chariot himself, not more. So the analysis was entirely correct, but nobody asked them about the results per particular castes...:tongue:)

*Lots of paperwork is involved, and the pay has been driven down by the bureaucracy, so it's not seen as a prestigious or gainful task for any spirit strong enough to fit the role. As a result, there's bureaucratic wrangling to saddle a rival with it, and some illicit liaisons have made use of it...:shade:

As a note, I often forget that this is my headcanon, actually:thumbsup:!
 

The Butcher

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(They are right. It's only true for the Zenith-aspected Exaltations! And Nights Exalt less often when the US himself is running the chariot himself, not more. So the analysis was entirely correct, but nobody asked them about the results per particular castes...:tongue:)
Is n big enough to stratify by caste, or is this typical subgroup analysis bullshit? I want to see the 95% CI for each caste, no p-value bullshit.
 

AsenRG

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Is n big enough to stratify by caste, or is this typical subgroup analysis bullshit? I want to see the 95% CI for each caste, no p-value bullshit.
That's how the discussion would sound, yeah, especially if they didn't want to give you the answer...:grin:
But as a Referee (R), I'm just giving you The Real Facts(TM):thumbsup:!
 
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