Satine Phoenix and Jamison Stone

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TristramEvans said:
So far, the backlash has caused Stone to step down a CEO from their company, Apotheosis (if you've never heard of them that's because they've never done anything), which is meaningless as he still is the majority owner of the corportion, and Satine published an online general apology with the promise of more specific apologies to come. The pair are being sued, and have generally been "cancelled", with many stepping forward to say they won't work with them again, and TBP getting their usual 5 Minutes of Hate in.
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They actually have done a couple of things.

The Red Opera was really good. That's the project that one of them wasn't on in the beginning and the other had questionable contributions on. Battle of the Bards is the other thing, which isn't out yet. They hire/contract really good writers for the material, so I'm sure Battle of the Bards will be good also.
 
Black Leaf said:
Realistically I think celebrity GMs and streamers are part of the modern hobby, whether we like it or not. (And I do think "ripped off freelancers" in particular is the kind of thing that needs airing).
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In the same way the D&D episodes of Community are "part of the hobby" I'd say.

But in regards to the second part, I think in the case of Stone and Satine, that's "closing the barn door after the cows escaped", but I agree a general discussion on freelancing in the hobby has value.

As someone who worked as a freelance artist for years, the biggest piece of advice I'd give anyone wanting to freelance is to do yourself a favour and take an introductory college course on Business Law, preferrably one focused on Contract Law, It will be the most valuable $3-400 you ever spend on yourself.

I think the big issue in the hobby is just that - it IS a hobby, so most people get into it just happy to be working on something they love - until they get taken advantage of and realize love don't pay the rent.
 
Raleel said:
this is the only reason i hopped in here. they've done nothing for the hobby, they aren't making a game. this is gaming "celebrity" gossip. I'd hope we are better than this.
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The reason I care is because of being a freelancer in the hobby and elsewhere- this makes it not gaming "celebrity" gossip, but news about people that mistreat the people that are responsible for the material we enjoy.

Rob Necronomicon said:
Absolutely.... As a freelancer, I know exactly what it's like to be ripped off. So yeah, it definitely needs to be said. That's why I always ask for 50% upfront nowadays. Because if they decide not to pay you at least you've got something for your time.
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Sometimes you can't :sad: I remember doing some work for a huge company (BearingPoint) contracting on a huge project (Retirement system for a large state), and I didn't get my first check for 6 months. I knew they'd pay, but 6 months without a check nearly broke me. I keep 4 months in the hole, and was able to make that last two months stretch into 4, but it wasn't easy. Sure I eventually got paid, and it was a big windfall.

There's also the time that a company decided they were not going to need me anymore at the last minute, and pulled the contract. I told them it was a bad idea and I'd be working. Then, they needed me, and I was working, so quoted them a cost commensurate with the extra work and inconvenience I'd have to put in to work with them. So they decided to 'bargain' by not paying my last invoice. Took them to arbitration and showed up with some high-priced lawyers that cowed them into submission. Because of lawyer's fees, I got less than $.50 on the dollar for my invoice.
 
TristramEvans said:
Stone was a bit rude, but the guy complainig was obviously to blame and it all would've been a nothingburger IMO, but this was enough to incite many more people to suddenly come forward with horror stories of dealing with Stone and Satine and the last few days have been a rabbithole of the awfulness of dealing with two narcissistic pricks.
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Where did you get that he was to blame? I thought it had to do with doing tattoos and Stone wanting to alter the terms of the contract after to include releasing the rights to the tattoo and berating him because that release wasn't in the contract when Stone was the one that asked him to draft it instead of him doing so?
 
chuckdee said:
Where did you get that he was to blame? I thought it had to do with doing tattoos and Stone wanting to alter the terms of the contract after to include releasing the rights to the tattoo and berating him because that release wasn't in the contract when Stone was the one that asked him to draft it instead of him doing so?
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There was orginally no contract, Stone asked for one after the work was done and then it became clear it was a condition for pay, and the person, not knowing anythig about contracts, recycled one from another situation that didn't apply and simpy switched out the names. After Stone throws a hissy fit about this a calls him "unprofessional", the guy agrees to let Stone rewrite the contract and then says he did something shady, but doesn't admt to what, before going into how he was treated after this.

I'm not saying Stone wasn't a raging asshole, but yeah, the guy was oblivious as far as contracts (something obviously that should have been established BEFORE the work was done), and I maintain if this was the ONLY thing that had come up regarding Stone, it'd pretty much be nothing - just an anecdote about a guy not knowing what he was doing in a business transaction and Stone being prickly about it.
 
I tend to ignore this sort of thing, because in the end it largely ends up being a "court of public opinion" sort of situation. If you don't know the people in question and haven't been involved with the issues directly, it can be hard to tease apart fact from fiction, miscommunication from deliberate lies, and (these days) accurate descriptions from hyperbole. The pattern is usually that someone makes a public complaint, a lot of people who know nothing about the situation go into outrage mode, more accusations flood in (real or exaggerated), more third-party outrage follows, someone makes a public apology, that apology gets rejected by the mob, and things devolve from there.

Sometimes there is a real issue caused by a bad person. Sometimes the accused person is a jerk, but what they did isn't illegal. Sometimes there is a real issue caused by a mistake. Sometimes the accuser isn't being fully honest or fair. Sometimes the accuser is just looking for a way to get revenge, for whatever reason. Sometimes there are some weird extenuating circumstances.

I have seen all of the situations in the paragraph above play out in real life, with different outcomes, both as a boss with dealing with issues between employees and on councils / organizing committees of hobby groups. One thing that has proven true through all of that is that in the end the only people who really know what happened are those who were involved in some way, and the only way to really get at the truth of the matter is to do some serious, careful, neutral investigating. That is rarely what ends up happening with these online blowups.

I don't know what really happened with the Satine Phoenix and Jamison Stone stuff, and I doubt that anyone else does, outside of those who have had personal dealings with them. I don't know any of the people involved, and I don't know anyone in real life who does. Given that, I don't really see any reason to dwell too much on it.
 
chuckdee said:
They actually have done a couple of things.

The Red Opera was really good. That's the project that one of them wasn't on in the beginning and the other had questionable contributions on. Battle of the Bards is the other thing, which isn't out yet. They hire/contract really good writers for the material, so I'm sure Battle of the Bards will be good also.
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The Red Opera is probably really good because the album and stageshow it was based on was really good, and it wasn't writen or illustrated by Stone or Satine or anyone at Apotheosis. According to the co-writer, it was finished before Apotheosis ever heard of it and the only thing Apotheosis did was run the Kickstarter and try to defraud the writers and artists.

Battle of the Bards isn't out yet, but judging by the comments section in the KS, it's going to be dead in the water once/if it releases. The only thing that's sad about that to me is that one of the contributers is Deborah Ann Woll, who I love dearly, and really hope none of this BS spills onto her in any way.
 
carpocratian said:
I tend to ignore this sort of thing, because in the end it largely ends up being a "court of public opinion" sort of situation. If you don't know the people in question and haven't been involved with the issues directly, it can be hard to tease apart fact from fiction, miscommunication from deliberate lies, and (these days) accurate descriptions from hyperbole. The pattern is usually that someone makes a public complaint, a lot of people who know nothing about the situation go into outrage mode, more accusations flood in (real or exaggerated), more third-party outrage follows, someone makes a public apology, that apology gets rejected by the mob, and things devolve from there.

Sometimes there is a real issue caused by a bad person. Sometimes the accused person is a jerk, but what they did isn't illegal. Sometimes there is a real issue caused by a mistake. Sometimes the accuser isn't being fully honest or fair. Sometimes the accuser is just looking for a way to get revenge, for whatever reason. Sometimes there are some weird extenuating circumstances.

I have seen all of the situations in the paragraph above play out in real life, with different outcomes, both as a boss with dealing with issues between employees and on councils / organizing committees of hobby groups. One thing that has proven true through all of that is that in the end the only people who really know what happened are those who were involved in some way, and the only way to really get at the truth of the matter is to do some serious, careful, neutral investigating. That is rarely what ends up happening with these online blowups.

I don't know what really happened with the Satine Phoenix and Jamison Stone stuff, and I doubt that anyone else does, outside of those who have had personal dealings with them. I don't know any of the people involved, and I don't know anyone in real life who does. Given that, I don't really see any reason to dwell too much on it.
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Well in this case at least, there's no need to rely on testimony, we have emails and online messages being shared.
 
JAMUMU said:
This right here is why I got out of the cult-establishing game.
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This is why cults should be established for eldritch entities instead of celebrities (with however much you choose to place behind that word).
Rob Necronomicon said:
Given the fact that she's a self-proclaimed 'community leader' and wants to give back to the community, she only charges you $200 to sit at her table.

How noble of her.

No gods. No masters.
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She was the official D&D Community Manager for a year or so.
 
:quiet: :thought: (He and I are matching nailpolishes, how embarrasing. Gotta buy some named O.P.I. polish and acetone at Claire's next door before anyone notices. Don't be suspicious!)
:hurry: :word: "OMG, I totes forgot my gluten-free Aunt Annie's pretzel order!"
 
I think the warning that Freelancers beware of them is a valuable. The poor celebrity behavior is also worth noting if you plan on using them in your marketing. I have see a few YouTube ads for Satine and some products I like and I doubt those products want that association now.

Fortunately they aren't that irreplaceable so once they torch themselves someone else will come along that's less brand toxic.
 
Almost all the early stuff I heard about was typical coked-up rockstar behaviour I encountered on a regular basis when I was a music writer and later when I was involved in live music production.

Completely, absurdly out of place in ttrpgs but hardly something to get an internet mob stirred up about. Just tell others that they're assholes and move on.

So I muted the whole thing after that.

Some of the later stuff sounds more serious but I don't understand the tendency to bring everything to social media these days. Just tell others they are shitty to do business with and let their work dry up. Why do randos need to hear about industry drama?
 
Bunch said:
I think the warning that Freelancers beware of them is a valuable. The poor celebrity behavior is also worth noting if you plan on using them in your marketing. I have see a few YouTube ads for Satine and some products I like and I doubt those products want that association now.

Fortunately they aren't that irreplaceable so once they torch themselves someone else will come along that's less brand toxic.
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I've completely abandoned the plan to use them to market my LARPs now, it's true.
 
There's probably value in some sort of website that catalogues bad actors in the community and the (actual/verifable) evidence. I know, for myself, I'll hear something and two years later will have mostly forgotten all about it, or vaguelly recollect hearing something connected to a name but not recall any specifics. Whisper Networks really don't serve the function they should in this day and age, and "Broken Stairs" tend to rely on ignorance and the internet's 15-minute attention span.

Case in part, Mark Mackinnon seems to have gotten a pass mainly because his shitty stuff happened before Twitter was a thing.

But I don't think the Pub should serve that fuction. Should be it's own thing, like "Garth's Stair Repair & Maintenence Blog" or something
 
Voros said:
Almost all the early stuff I heard about was typical coked-up rockstar behaviour I encountered on a regular basis when I was a music writer and later when I was involved in live music production.

Completely, absurdly out of place in ttrpgs but hardly something to get an internet mob stirred up about. Just tell others that they're assholes and move on.

So I muted the whole thing after that.

Some of the later stuff sounds more serious but I don't understand the tendency to bring everything to social media these days. Just tell others they are shitty to do business with and let their work dry up. Why do randos need to hear about industry drama?
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Cuz cooking up e-drama and stirring up an online mob is a necessary part of their daily diet of dopamine and e-validation.
 
I tend to be a separate the art from the artist person, if I can watch movies that star terrible people and music by terrible people I don’t tend to have a problem buying quality games from them. There are limits, such as Roman Polanski and Victor Salva, but generally I’m not going to let the creator being a shitbag hinder my enjoyment of something.
 
sharps54 said:
I tend to be a separate the art from the artist person, if I can watch movies that star terrible people and music by terrible people I don’t tend to have a problem buying quality games from than. There are limits, such as Roman Polanski and Victor Salva but generally I’m not going to let the creator being a shitbag hinder my enjoyment of something.
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In this case at least, there's no art to seperate them from.
 
TristramEvans said:
In this case at least, there's no art to seperate them from.
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They might not exist as far as I’m concerned as I don’t watch or listen to actual plays, with the exception of the podcast of one of my friends. APs, like watching someone play a video game on YouTube, bores the crap out me, I’d rather be playing than watching someone else play. That’s just my personal opinion and not meant to influence anyone else, if APs are your thing that’s cool they just aren’t mine.
 
Black Leaf said:
Is Porn Art?

Finally closed on RPGPub after 437 pages of flaming.
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Some Art is Porn. :eat:

Honestly Satine did only a couple years of porn, more work than Zak obviously but hard pressed to consider her a 'pornstar.' People need to let her past as a sex worker go.
 
Oh, worth noting that Satine was WotC's 'Community Manager' (aka. Nerdwrangler) for a few years. I thought it was cool they were willing to hire her despite her sex work past but maybe she got dropped for some of this behaviour and/or the behaviour of her partner. Not sure how long they've been together and also not sure I give a shit.
 
Voros said:
Oh, worth noting that Satine was WotC's 'Community Manager' (aka. Nerdwrangler) for a few years. I thought it was cool they were willing to hire her despite her sex work past but maybe she got dropped for some of this behaviour and/or the behaviour of her partner. Not sure how long they've been together and also not sure I give a shit.
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Yeah, honestly, the gossipy stuff about their personal life is the least interesting part about it and I'm already bored.

I'm much more interested in what this says about freelancing, how they got away with pulling the rock star shit at convention volunteers etc. The only personal stuff I really consider relevant is Jamison alledgedly crossing professional/sexual boundaries and unfortunately that one is incredibly common in the entertainment industry.
 
Black Leaf said:
How the fuck is Jamison a real name? It's a surname, surely.
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Clearly, you haven't done your homework. In the hit TV show CASTLE the main character (played by Nathan Fillian) is an author named Rick Castle, and one of his characters (prior to Nikki Heat, I believe) is Jameson Rook. So, I'm citing a fictional character created by a fictional character on a real TV series as proof that Jamison can be a real name. :grin:
 
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