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Endless Flight

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I’d argue that Bruce Wayne’s Batman has never been chaotic. If he was, it was before he took on the guise of Batman, when he was running around with a ski-mask on, not know what the hell he was doing. Jean Paul Valley’s Batman, sure.
 

Ladybird

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I don't have a problem with alignments when there are definable forces of Law, Chaos, Evil, and Good. When, like in 5e, they've removed that element from all the magic and the like (which I'm also fine with), then it just feels like a vestigial remnant left in because D&D is "supposed" to have that.
5e even walks it back from the way they worked in 4e, which cut it down to five (LG, G, E, CE, unaligned). I'd be surprised if they made it into 6e at all, given they've basically just been fluff for two editions now.

I'd much rather see the character sheet space replaced with something like "Ethos:" and a short, like five words or so, summary of why your character adventures, updateable whenever appropriate; if it's gonna be fluff, at least let the player make it descriptive fluff.
 

Tommy Brownell

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I rather liked the 4 point background gimmicks in 5e: Personality Trait, Ideal, Bond, Flaw. Those were bigger guiding points for characters in our games than LG, CN, NE, or the like.
 

EmperorNorton

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I hate the idea that Law is somehow 'evil', one of the reasons I was never a fan of Golarion.
Dude it is one nation that is explicitly lawful evil as they worship Asmodeus. there is no theme that "law is evil" as a whole in Golarion. It is shown as both good and evil in different locations. If it was shown as "law is evil", Iomedae would be an odd choice of a god to put in the setting. As would her paladins fighting an endless war holding back the things from the Worldwound.

I really feel like sometimes you pick one little detail of some kind of fiction, and then extrapolate it out in the most bizarre ways.
 

tenbones

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Going over things more tonight with my Rules-Guy...

Yeah some really nice additions -

- Teleport is now Dimension Door and actual Teleport. Take 3-rounds to cast, and pay the extra modifiers, and you can teleport anywhere in the world. Proper!

- Magic Item crafting is very easy mechanics. I knew they'd re-tweak the crafting rules from Savage Rifts, and they did, retuning it for Golarion's conceits. It takes the road of 3e, but simplifies it by making each check 500gp worth of progress. All you need is materials, gold, and a workshop. The capacity to create magic items makes those with arcane backgrounds of all sorts, very useful. I know in 3e any caster class could do this too - but the mechanics of the system writ-large were more clunky. Downtime activities are a thing in SW, so now you have some really meaningful stuff you can do. Another nice touch is the implicit appearance and aesthetic of your items you create are tied to your class. While there are no mechanics specifically required for it, it makes for nice player-agency to be creative. And you can make temporary charged items or permanents ones (these are standard things in SW, but for those that don't know, now ya know!)

- Cantrips are well captured by the rules. Since spells in SW are closer to "Powers" like in a supers-game, it lets creative players be colorful much like the crafting rules.

Combat Stuff

- Fighters are fucking dangerous.

- Barbarians are fucking dangerous.

- Assassins might be TOO Dangerous

- Prestige Edges range from eyebrow-raising (Assassin, Mystic Theurge) to just okay and fine. There was nothing I saw that I felt *sucked*. They all capture the spirit of the PF system with SW mechanics.

- Sorcerers *feel* right to me for the first time ever. SW is a good home for them.

- Wizards feel less shiny than Sorcerers but their power and utility will be unmatched.

- Priests will make most D&D players scratch their heads until they get their heads around the Spells-as-Powers thing, then the fact that their deity's portfolio in play takes a page from 2e's Faiths and Pantheons and clearly lists their Domain's "Thou Shalts/Shalt Nots" with actual mechanical effects to go along with them. Priests and Druids are solid mechanically. Now we just need to make more Domains... currently there are: Death, Evil, Good, Knowledge, Nature, Protection, Trickery, War. Which is a solid start. But you know... we can always make more.

- Druids, were a problem in 3e and later editions. Here, they retain their dynamic nature, with Shape Change lasting a baseline Hour (which they can simply recast). Plus they have *ton* of utility - including having animal companions, travel abilities both tactical and long-range (ignores terrain penalties). Yeah they're reaaaaally good. But their prohibitions will keep players in-line.


More later!
 

EmperorNorton

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I wish this book had existed last year when I was running a Golarion game in Savage Worlds...

I actually do like the setting, though you kind of just have to accept that it is a super kitchen sink, but that doesn't mean it's flavorless, it just means different regions can have wildly different flavors. Numeria is basically Conan vs Alien Robots for instance. And is probably one of my favorite regions in the game.
 

tenbones

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Oh sure, Golarion has its elements that I think are cool. I just have 30+ years invested in the Realms (Greybox era).

When I take it to Spelljammer - I will definitely make a Golarionspace Sphere for kicks and giggles and see if I can lure my players there.
 

tenbones

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New update to the Savage Pathfinder PDF is up.


- Dwarves Hardy ancestral feature changed to Iron Constitution.
+1 to resist Poison. And they get +1 to resist or recover from powers or abilities. (Kinda eh)

- Humans must meet the requirements of their free Edge.

- AB (Magic) Has Armor Interference (light) not (cloth), allowing non-wizard magic users to wear leather armor.
So caster can wear leather armor. Not bad.

- Druids cannot use metal armor.
Thematically accurate to D&D. Not really going to be a big issue considering the emphasis on Shape Change.

- Monk can now use Trademark Weapon on their unarmed attacks.
THIS IS AWESOME.

- Monks’ Mystic Powers should include deflection instead of protection (which gets added in Great Ki Edge).
I was 99% sure this was a typo in the first draft. Glad they caught it.

- Sorcerers gain 15PP not 10PP.
Another catch given that Sorcerers start with fewer Powers than Wizards.

- For sorcerers, Spellcasting is linked to Spirit not Smarts.
Another obvious correction to differentiate Wizards from Sorcerers.

- Draconic: should be +2 Armor and +1 damage to powers with trappings suitable to the draconic bloodline.

- NEW SITUATIONAL RULE - Rest: when a party rests for at least 8 hours, each WC (and the GM) recovers one Benny.
This is a big change. Probably will be very helpful for new SW GM's that haven't found their balance with the Benny-rules.

- Arcane Archer and Arcane Trickster requirements changed to allow any Mystic Powers.
- Dragon Disciple and Eldritch Knight requirements changed to allow any Mystic Powers.

This widens the themes of what can become these PrC's. This is a good thing.

- Recharging Power Points from rest has reverted to standard SWADE rate of 5 per hour.
WHEW! This is a big welcome change. They tried to shoehorn a more Vancian feel that did not work.

- Cantrips only cost 1PP on a Critical Failure. Otherwise free!
Another good change. Cantrips are largely for flavor and fun, they shouldn't be draining your casters dry. It's trivially easy to make magic more difficult in SW. No need to deviate from the standard rules.


Tons of little corrections on Edges and Powers. Nothing major, but I'm still working my way back through.
 

tenbones

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Something I considered while reading through the PDF is my views on this edition of Golorion as a setting. It's *very* stripped down in this form and feels very Greybox Realms, where you have enough flavor to really just do your own thing...

HMM....
 

Acmegamer

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I noted an error on the pace/mph math on page 116-117. They tell you to multiple the vehicles listed mph by 1.5 to get pace. Yet when you look at the listed vehicles which some have pace listed underneath the numbers don't work.
 

tenbones

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I noted an error on the pace/mph math on page 116-117. They tell you to multiple the vehicles listed mph by 1.5 to get pace. Yet when you look at the listed vehicles which some have pace listed underneath the numbers don't work.
I'm going to say this has always been a thing with Pace/MPH. It's just a ballpark rule for GM's that need to figure out pace on the fly. The issue is that Pace is supposed to represent combat movement on a battlemap, where you're assumed to be making necessary precautions according to your ability, even while sprinting. The abstraction has never quite sized up. Which is why the Chase Rules try to tie it all together.

Frankly I still use normal travel rates from 1e/2e D&D, and I only engage with Pace needs for tactical situations. It's never been a problem for us. I was thinking it might be when we ran Savage Rifts - but nope. Once you adjust for the distance per day in travel times adjusted for terrain and vehicle type (flying/land) it's pretty straightforward.

The Chase Rules are another thing altogether. There is a LOT of wiggleroom for you as a GM to make such things very interesting - and it's pretty cool since it works for foot-chases to vehicle chases.
 

tenbones

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So version Savage Pathfinder 1.3 and the Savage Pathfinder Bestiary.

Changelists for Pathfinder are numerous. Little but significant changes, a couple I'll denote below.

- Implementation of a new mechanic : The Limited Action. Some abilities/powers/Edges will grant "free Limited Actions". The trick to all of these are a PC can only do ONE Limited Action per round.
- Rangers and Paladins can now use the Power Modifiers to their limited lists.
- LOTS of little Class Edge tweaks. Most seem to be for the better, imo.
- Tons of corrections.

Bestiary Contents
Alligator/Crocodile . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .13
Aboleth . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14
Animated Object . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14
Ankheg . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .15
Archons . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .16
Trumpet Archon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .17
Auroch . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18
Barghest . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18
Barghest, Greater . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18
Basilisk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .19
Bear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .19
Bear, Dire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .19
Beetle, Fire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20
Bird of Prey . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20
Black Pudding . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20
Boar . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .21
Boar, Dire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .22
Bugbear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .22
Bunyip . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .22
Cat, Large . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .23
Cat, Large Dire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .23
Cat, Small . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .23
Centaur . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .24
Cockatrice . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .24
Darkmantle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .25
Deathweb . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .25
Demons . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .26
Balor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .26
Devils . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .29
Pit Fiend . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .31
Dog/Wolf . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .32
Doppelganger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .32
Dragon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .33
Black Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .34
Blue Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .35
Brass Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .37
Bronze Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .38
Copper Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .39
Gold Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .41
Green Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .42
Red Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .43
Silver Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .44
White Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .46
Dragon Turtle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .46
Drider . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .47
Drow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .48
Drow Noble . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .48
Dryad . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .49
Elementals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .49
Elephant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .52
Ettercap . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .53
Ettin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .54
Gargoyle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .54
Gelatinous Cube . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .55
Ghast . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .55
Ghost . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .56
Ghoul . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .56
Giant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .57
Giant Animals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .61
Giant Eagle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .65
Gnoll . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .65
Goblin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .66
Goblin Commando . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .66
Goblin Dog . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .66
Goblin Snake . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .67
Goblin Warchanter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .67
Golem . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .67
Griffon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .70
Hag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .71
Night Hag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .72
Harpy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .73
Hell Hound . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .74
Nessian Hell Hound . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .74
Hobgoblin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .74
Horse, Light . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .75
Horse, Heavy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .75
Hydra . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .76
Intellect Devourer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .76
Kobold . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .77
Kyton . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .78
Lamia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .78
Lamia Matriarch . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .79
Lich . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .79
Linnorm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .80
Crag Linnorm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .81
Ice Linnorm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .81
Tarn Linnorm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .82
Lion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .82
Lizardfolk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .83
Lycanthrope . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .83
Manticore . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .85
Medusa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .86
Mephit . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .87
Mimic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .88
Minotaur . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .88
Mohrg . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .89
Morlock . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .89
Mule . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .90
Mummy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .90
Naga . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .91
Dark Naga . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .91
Guardian Naga . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .91
Spirit Naga . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .92
Nightmare . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .92
Nymph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .93
Ochre Jelly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .94
Ogre . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .94
Ogre Mage, Oni . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .95
Ogre Spider . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .95
Orc . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .96
Orc, Chieftain . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .96
Otyugh . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .96
Owlbear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .97
Phase Spider . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .97
Phoenix . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .98
Pixie . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .99
Purple Worm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .99
Rakshasa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .100
Redcap . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .101
Remorhaz . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .101
Revenant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .102
Rhinoceros . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .102
Roc . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .103
Roper . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .104
Rust Monster . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .104
Satyr . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .105
Shadow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .105
Shambling Mound . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .106
Shark . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .106
Shocker Lizard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .107
Shoggoth . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .107
Sinspawn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .108
Skaveling . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .108
Skeleton . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .109
Skeletal Champion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .110
Snake . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .110
Soldiers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .111
Spectre . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .112
Swarm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .112
Tarrasque . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .113
Tatzlwyrm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .114
Tendriculos . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .114
Tentamort . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .115
Town/City Guard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .115
Captain of the guard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .115
Townsfolk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .116
Treant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .117
Troglodyte . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .118
Troll . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .118
Unicorn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .119
Vampire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .119
Vargouille . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .120
Violet Fungus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .121
Wendigo . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .121
Wight . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .122
Will-O’-Wisp . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .123
Wolverine . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .123
Wolverine, Dire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .123
Worg . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .124
Wraith . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .124
Wyvern . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .125
Xill . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .125
Xorn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .126
Yeth hound . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .126
Yeti . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .126
Zombie . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .127

So yeah - pretty solid. They give rules for designing your own monsters as well as a complete list of monster abilities conditions and templates including simple mechanics to scale your monsters all the way to Kaiju (including different scales of Kaiju ranging from 500-ton monsters to 125k-ton planetary threats).

Every monster has a picture (I think).

Here's the Drow
1622327055600.png

Wererat (Skaven!)
1622327131160.png

Rules for Lycanthropy and Zombie templates.

Pretty much what I expected - and that's a good thing.
 

Tommy Brownell

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I did a side by side of Rise of the Runelords book 1 with the Pathfinder version and was shocked to see that not only were no encounters cut, but the number of enemies was actually increased in a few places.
 
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AsenRG

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I did a side by side of Rose of the Runelords book 1 with the Pathfinder version and was shocked to see that not only were no encounters cut, but the number of enemies was actually increased in a few places.
Sounds good to me:thumbsup:!
 

Savage Schemer

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Is the Kickstart the only way to get this or do they plan on a general release? I'm looking down the barrel of moving in the next thirty days and will be avoiding Kickstarter until after the move.
 

Spellslinging Sellsword

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I believe the intent is to sell it in general release. Also, per comment in the Kickstarter they won't close the Pledge Manager until October, so you can late back it up to that point.
 

AsenRG

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I'm half of the mind of getting this just so I could run it for dedicated D&D groups when the Open RPG Days resume...:devil:

Then again, there's still time until then, so I don't need to decide now.
 

Rogerdee

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I'm half of the mind of getting this just so I could run it for dedicated D&D groups when the Open RPG Days resume...:devil:

Then again, there's still time until then, so I don't need to decide now.
Me too as it happens. Thinking of running an online Magic the Gathering type game.

Although having seen a mate's pdf copy I am a bit disappointed with Monks getting Mystic Power which is not an arcane background in its own right, but Bards get their own.

I half expected a Shaintar or Deadlands style approach to monks.
 
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AsenRG

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Me too as it happens. Thinking of running an online Magic the Gathering type game.

Although having seen a mate's pdf copy I am a bit disappointed with Monks getting Mystic Power which is not an arcane background in its own right, but Bards get their own.

I half expected a Shaintar or Deadlands style approach to monks.
Then what does Mystic Power do? I mean, 3.5 monks got stuff like the Stunning Palm, the wall-assisted Featherfall and the Extra Deadly Palm. They're easily replicated with arcane backgrounds, but could as well be edges.
 

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Then what does Mystic Power do?
It allows limited magic, in that you can only choose from a small selection given to you. So at basic levels you get Boost, Proection, Smite and Speed. Paladin gets this treatment too. But it is not an AB. Even Bard gets AB Bard which is helka weird.

In my homebrew writeup they get something called Heroic (the old Runequest Gifts, and Heroic abilities) which are xalled Gifts and Training. Which I think works better, and allows a cross-pollination of abilities.
 
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AsenRG

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It allows limited magic, in that you can only choose from a small selection given to you. So at basic levels you get Boost, Proection, Smite and Speed. Paladin gets this treatment too. But it is not an AB. Even Bard gets AB Bard which is helka weird.

In my homebrew writeup they get something called Heroic (the old Runequest Gifts, and Heroic abilities) which are xalled Gifts and Training. Which I think works better, and allows a cross-pollination of abilities.
OK, both approaches make sense, except for it not being an Arcane Background. Or are you limited to one AB? Probably not, but if so, that might be the reason why - to allow paladin/sorcerer or monk/wizard combos:smile:.
 

Rogerdee

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OK, both approaches make sense, except for it not being an Arcane Background. Or are you limited to one AB? Probably not, but if so, that might be the reason why - to allow paladin/sorcerer or monk/wizard combos:smile:.
Thing is, if they had AB Magic, and used multi-classing edge that would solve a lot of problems
 

tenbones

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I'm half of the mind of getting this just so I could run it for dedicated D&D groups when the Open RPG Days resume...:devil:

Then again, there's still time until then, so I don't need to decide now.
When it comes time for me to publicly push my project, I intend on doing demos and running one-shots for the locals here where D&D *dominates* the gaming scene.

And I will corrupt them with Savage Pathfinder. Mark my words.
 

tenbones

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OK, both approaches make sense, except for it not being an Arcane Background. Or are you limited to one AB? Probably not, but if so, that might be the reason why - to allow paladin/sorcerer or monk/wizard combos:smile:.
This is my take on their design choice.

1) Mystic Powers as a category is there to justify the supernatural abilities that are not full-blown "caster" firepower found in D&D or in their AB analogs.

2) "Multiclassing" in D&D is *not* the same thing narratively or abstractly in Savage Worlds. I would argue that multiclassing in D&D is not really done with its narrative intention intact either. A "class" is presumed to be years of work learning the basic sets of abilities that define the 1st level PC *over* what is presumed to be the rank-and-file populace. A Fighter isn't "just" a man-at-arms, they're a highly trained would-be killing machine. In D&D since 3e, i've seen people flip classes for their "optimal build" without any presumption of in-game play in terms of a campaign or setting. Thankfully, SW has pointed this out. Getting a Class Edge should not be something anyone can just choose without a lot of in-game training.

3) With the reality that SW is primarily skill/Edge based, it's not really necessary to "mulitclass". A character class with Mystic Powers has all their abilities represented within that Class Edge framework. If for instance you wanted to broaden the characters abilities, learning an AB will certainly fill that gap. If the argument is these Class Frameworks need *more* power or flexibility it would dissolve the necessity for SW to maintain its own modularity where *not* choosing a Class Edge should remain a viable choice.

ALL of that said...

Nothing says you can't simple tweak the Mystic Powers rule to say: "AB Edges can be used with them and AB Powerpoints are additive if the PC picks up an AB." Problem solved. It will make those classes pretty powerful by comparison, but I say if your game wants to run high-octane, GO FOR IT.
 

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That said, on the Monk front, you could easily just give then AB magic, and the flavour of their power would be an Organisation edge, like in Shaintar.

If any game warrants breaking the rule about multiple AB's (Pathfinder obviiusly does) then by default so should Savage Pathfinder.
 
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AsenRG

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When it comes time for me to publicly push my project, I intend on doing demos and running one-shots for the locals here where D&D *dominates* the gaming scene.

And I will corrupt them with Savage Pathfinder. Mark my words.
I'm counting on you:thumbsup:!

This is my take on their design choice.

1) Mystic Powers as a category is there to justify the supernatural abilities that are not full-blown "caster" firepower found in D&D or in their AB analogs.

2) "Multiclassing" in D&D is *not* the same thing narratively or abstractly in Savage Worlds. I would argue that multiclassing in D&D is not really done with its narrative intention intact either. A "class" is presumed to be years of work learning the basic sets of abilities that define the 1st level PC *over* what is presumed to be the rank-and-file populace. A Fighter isn't "just" a man-at-arms, they're a highly trained would-be killing machine. In D&D since 3e, i've seen people flip classes for their "optimal build" without any presumption of in-game play in terms of a campaign or setting. Thankfully, SW has pointed this out. Getting a Class Edge should not be something anyone can just choose without a lot of in-game training.

3) With the reality that SW is primarily skill/Edge based, it's not really necessary to "mulitclass". A character class with Mystic Powers has all their abilities represented within that Class Edge framework. If for instance you wanted to broaden the characters abilities, learning an AB will certainly fill that gap. If the argument is these Class Frameworks need *more* power or flexibility it would dissolve the necessity for SW to maintain its own modularity where *not* choosing a Class Edge should remain a viable choice.

ALL of that said...

Nothing says you can't simple tweak the Mystic Powers rule to say: "AB Edges can be used with them and AB Powerpoints are additive if the PC picks up an AB." Problem solved. It will make those classes pretty powerful by comparison, but I say if your game wants to run high-octane, GO FOR IT.
Well, personally I'd stick to the "one AB" rule. But multiclassing is a thing in PF, so it doesn't make sense to make its SW variant - a system which is inherently more flexible - to allow less flexibility.
Besides, if the player wants a trained monk with magic in his blood, why not:shade:? It's a fitting character for a fantasy book, most definitely!
 

Tommy Brownell

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That said, on the Monk front, you could easily just give then AB magic, and the flavour of their power would be an Organisation edge, like in Shaintar.

If any game warrants breaking the rule about multiple AB's (Pathfinder obviiusly does) then by default so should Savage Pathfinder.

SWADE specifically allows for multiple ABs. It just says they should be rare and have their own powers, Power Points, and skills.
 

tenbones

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Yup.

Monks having a full-blown AB forces me to make the further claim of -

"What is a Monk?"

D&D Monks seem well represented in "Deadlands" in terms of the AB they received there. They're quite powerful. As far as SWADE goes, or more specifically, SW Pathfinder - the Monk Class Edge is trying to balance the framework against the Monk concept in the d20 Pathfinder game more than anything else.

There's dozens of ways to skin the proverbial cat depending on how you want Monks represented.
 

Rogerdee

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Yup.

Monks having a full-blown AB forces me to make the further claim of -

"What is a Monk?"

D&D Monks seem well represented in "Deadlands" in terms of the AB they received there. They're quite powerful. As far as SWADE goes, or more specifically, SW Pathfinder - the Monk Class Edge is trying to balance the framework against the Monk concept in the d20 Pathfinder game more than anything else.

There's dozens of ways to skin the proverbial cat depending on how you want Monks represented.
Absolutely true, couldn't agree more.
I was going to post myidea in here, did it as its own thread.
 

tenbones

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Well, personally I'd stick to the "one AB" rule. But multiclassing is a thing in PF, so it doesn't make sense to make its SW variant - a system which is inherently more flexible - to allow less flexibility.
Besides, if the player wants a trained monk with magic in his blood, why not:shade:? It's a fitting character for a fantasy book, most definitely!
D20 metamechanics (Multiclassing) are not part of the design goals of SW. Let's be honest, Multiclassing in D&D has *always* been ugly largely because the conflict of trying to "balance" classes against one another in the context of allowing someone to multi-class, then recapitulating that concept back into the game often rendered core classes obsolete, or sub-optimal, which then reinforces the whole "build mentality". Which forces yet more degradation from the point of what classes were designed for.

This dynamic of class-builds is one of the major reasons I stopped using D&D (not not the only one). I think SWPF did it right. They're not disallowing you to allow players to choose Class Edges at will (per Rank RAW) they merely advise the GM/Players that the concept of a D20 Class is not something one just enters into lightly, that it takes years to develop the basic skills that would allow someone to enter a Class, narratively, rather than DING! leveling up in the middle of the Dungeon and suddenly finding themselves a Wizard.

I run long-form campaigns, so this criteria has always been something I did. I never just let people learn stuff out of the blue because they leveled. Actually, I rarely just let people level because their XP denoted them reaching that level. I usually have my players take a little bit of downtime to train etc. This serves my campaigns in several ways

It lets my players seek out the things they want to learn and makes them more pro-active about doing things in the game other than roflstomping monsters and robbing them. It also queues the PC's to proactively roleplay in-session themselves training to mitigate learning skills/techniques to keep the downtime training to a minimum. Having fellow spellcasters tutor your Rogue in basic cantrips around the campfire, the Monk teaching the Wizard some hand-to-hand techniques etc. The Cleric reading from a training manual on swordplay. blah blah blah

Tons of roleplaying opportunity. Training montages can easily be used to skim the process of course, if for nothing else than to fulfill the presumed criteria of actually acquiring techniques one couldn't possibly do themselves. But they can also be mini-adventures in their own right, as well as lead to springboard adventures. How many martial arts movies have had new trainees run afoul of local rivals during the process? Or they learn of some hidden technique that the Master doesn't teach, but conveniently learns about how to do the technique which requires going on an adventure which the Master intended all along?

Obviously this is for playing a little deeper rather than Adventuring/Leveling by the numbers. But the beauty of Savage Worlds is it can serve all these purposes.
 

robertsconley

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Yup.

Monks having a full-blown AB forces me to make the further claim of -

"What is a Monk?"

D&D Monks seem well represented in "Deadlands" in terms of the AB they received there. They're quite powerful. As far as SWADE goes, or more specifically, SW Pathfinder - the Monk Class Edge is trying to balance the framework against the Monk concept in the d20 Pathfinder game more than anything else.

There's dozens of ways to skin the proverbial cat depending on how you want Monks represented.
So what the equivalent of every character has a level if one wants to go with that approach?

For example it a bet hard to do this with GURPS Dungeon Fantasy/Dungeon Fantasy RPG 'as is' because character are assumed to be built using 250 points. Which works great provided that your idea of dungeon crawls aligns with that of the author. When you try to use DF material with 100 to 150 point heroic level which was more of what many did before the advent of DF, you have to keep that in mind especially in regards to creatures. It not that hard but it something that can catch someone unawares.

So if one wants to run a more grounded fantasy campaign with SW Pathfinder how much work will it be?
 

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So what the equivalent of every character has a level if one wants to go with that approach?

For example it a bet hard to do this with GURPS Dungeon Fantasy/Dungeon Fantasy RPG 'as is' because character are assumed to be built using 250 points. Which works great provided that your idea of dungeon crawls aligns with that of the author. When you try to use DF material with 100 to 150 point heroic level which was more of what many did before the advent of DF, you have to keep that in mind especially in regards to creatures. It not that hard but it something that can catch someone unawares.

So if one wants to run a more grounded fantasy campaign with SW Pathfinder how much work will it be?
Look at Beasts and Barbarians as an example really. It is Conan inspired, and because it is SW still fairly cinematic to be honest.
 

Tommy Brownell

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So if one wants to run a more grounded fantasy campaign with SW Pathfinder how much work will it be?

Depends on what you want here. By it's nature, the power curve will be flatter than Pathfinder. But there's still going to be a lot of Pathfinder-isms. For more grounded, it's probably easier just using the Fantasy Companion, depending on just how grounded you want it.
 

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Yup.

Monks having a full-blown AB forces me to make the further claim of -

"What is a Monk?"

D&D Monks seem well represented in "Deadlands" in terms of the AB they received there. They're quite powerful. As far as SWADE goes, or more specifically, SW Pathfinder - the Monk Class Edge is trying to balance the framework against the Monk concept in the d20 Pathfinder game more than anything else.

There's dozens of ways to skin the proverbial cat depending on how you want Monks represented.
My personal opinion is that a 'Monk' is nothing more than a Fighter with Martial Artist or Warrior, Brawler and Bruiser (To show how they improve their unarmed combat.)
 

Tommy Brownell

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My personal opinion is that a 'Monk' is nothing more than a Fighter with Martial Artist or Warrior, Brawler and Bruiser (To show how they improve their unarmed combat.)
Outside of the context of Pathfinder, I would say that's a solid concept. Inside the context of Pathfinder, though, that's going to fall pretty far off the mark.
 

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Outside of the context of Pathfinder, I would say that's a solid concept. Inside the context of Pathfinder, though, that's going to fall pretty far off the mark.
To be fair, it's a D&D-ism. And frankly, there's really not much to the class other than a bunch of weird powers that don't all make sense, but then back in 3.x, no one cared about those. it was all about 'Punching For Justice'.
 
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