CRKrueger
Eläytyminatör
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2017
- Messages
- 9,123
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5e even walks it back from the way they worked in 4e, which cut it down to five (LG, G, E, CE, unaligned). I'd be surprised if they made it into 6e at all, given they've basically just been fluff for two editions now.I don't have a problem with alignments when there are definable forces of Law, Chaos, Evil, and Good. When, like in 5e, they've removed that element from all the magic and the like (which I'm also fine with), then it just feels like a vestigial remnant left in because D&D is "supposed" to have that.
Dude it is one nation that is explicitly lawful evil as they worship Asmodeus. there is no theme that "law is evil" as a whole in Golarion. It is shown as both good and evil in different locations. If it was shown as "law is evil", Iomedae would be an odd choice of a god to put in the setting. As would her paladins fighting an endless war holding back the things from the Worldwound.I hate the idea that Law is somehow 'evil', one of the reasons I was never a fan of Golarion.
I'm going to say this has always been a thing with Pace/MPH. It's just a ballpark rule for GM's that need to figure out pace on the fly. The issue is that Pace is supposed to represent combat movement on a battlemap, where you're assumed to be making necessary precautions according to your ability, even while sprinting. The abstraction has never quite sized up. Which is why the Chase Rules try to tie it all together.I noted an error on the pace/mph math on page 116-117. They tell you to multiple the vehicles listed mph by 1.5 to get pace. Yet when you look at the listed vehicles which some have pace listed underneath the numbers don't work.
Alligator/Crocodile . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .13 Aboleth . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14 Animated Object . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14 Ankheg . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .15 Archons . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .16 Trumpet Archon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .17 Auroch . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18 Barghest . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18 Barghest, Greater . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18 Basilisk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .19 Bear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .19 Bear, Dire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .19 Beetle, Fire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20 Bird of Prey . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20 Black Pudding . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20 Boar . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .21 Boar, Dire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .22 Bugbear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .22 Bunyip . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .22 Cat, Large . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .23 Cat, Large Dire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .23 Cat, Small . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .23 Centaur . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .24 Cockatrice . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .24 Darkmantle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .25 Deathweb . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .25 Demons . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .26 Balor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .26 Devils . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .29 Pit Fiend . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .31 Dog/Wolf . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .32 Doppelganger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .32 Dragon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .33 Black Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .34 Blue Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .35 Brass Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .37 Bronze Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .38 Copper Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .39 Gold Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .41 Green Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .42 Red Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .43 Silver Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .44 White Dragon, Adult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .46 Dragon Turtle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .46 Drider . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .47 Drow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .48 Drow Noble . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .48 Dryad . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .49 Elementals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .49 Elephant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .52 Ettercap . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .53 Ettin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .54 Gargoyle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .54 Gelatinous Cube . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .55 Ghast . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .55 Ghost . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .56 Ghoul . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .56 Giant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .57 Giant Animals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .61 Giant Eagle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .65 Gnoll . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .65 Goblin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .66 Goblin Commando . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .66 Goblin Dog . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .66 Goblin Snake . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .67 Goblin Warchanter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .67 Golem . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .67 Griffon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .70 Hag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .71 Night Hag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .72 Harpy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .73 Hell Hound . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .74 Nessian Hell Hound . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .74 Hobgoblin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .74 Horse, Light . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .75 Horse, Heavy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .75 Hydra . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .76 Intellect Devourer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .76 Kobold . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .77 Kyton . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .78 Lamia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .78 Lamia Matriarch . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .79 Lich . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .79 Linnorm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .80 Crag Linnorm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .81 Ice Linnorm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .81 Tarn Linnorm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .82 Lion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .82 Lizardfolk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .83 Lycanthrope . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .83 | Manticore . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .85 Medusa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .86 Mephit . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .87 Mimic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .88 Minotaur . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .88 Mohrg . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .89 Morlock . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .89 Mule . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .90 Mummy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .90 Naga . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .91 Dark Naga . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .91 Guardian Naga . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .91 Spirit Naga . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .92 Nightmare . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .92 Nymph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .93 Ochre Jelly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .94 Ogre . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .94 Ogre Mage, Oni . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .95 Ogre Spider . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .95 Orc . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .96 Orc, Chieftain . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .96 Otyugh . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .96 Owlbear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .97 Phase Spider . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .97 Phoenix . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .98 Pixie . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .99 Purple Worm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .99 Rakshasa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .100 Redcap . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .101 Remorhaz . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .101 Revenant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .102 Rhinoceros . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .102 Roc . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .103 Roper . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .104 Rust Monster . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .104 Satyr . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .105 Shadow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .105 Shambling Mound . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .106 Shark . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .106 Shocker Lizard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .107 Shoggoth . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .107 Sinspawn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .108 Skaveling . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .108 Skeleton . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .109 Skeletal Champion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .110 Snake . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .110 Soldiers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .111 Spectre . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .112 Swarm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .112 Tarrasque . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .113 Tatzlwyrm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .114 Tendriculos . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .114 Tentamort . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .115 Town/City Guard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .115 Captain of the guard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .115 Townsfolk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .116 Treant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .117 Troglodyte . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .118 Troll . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .118 Unicorn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .119 Vampire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .119 Vargouille . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .120 Violet Fungus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .121 Wendigo . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .121 Wight . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .122 Will-O’-Wisp . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .123 Wolverine . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .123 Wolverine, Dire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .123 Worg . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .124 Wraith . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .124 Wyvern . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .125 Xill . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .125 Xorn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .126 Yeth hound . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .126 Yeti . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .126 Zombie . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .127 |
Sounds good to me!I did a side by side of Rose of the Runelords book 1 with the Pathfinder version and was shocked to see that not only were no encounters cut, but the number of enemies was actually increased in a few places.
Me too as it happens. Thinking of running an online Magic the Gathering type game.I'm half of the mind of getting this just so I could run it for dedicated D&D groups when the Open RPG Days resume...
Then again, there's still time until then, so I don't need to decide now.
Then what does Mystic Power do? I mean, 3.5 monks got stuff like the Stunning Palm, the wall-assisted Featherfall and the Extra Deadly Palm. They're easily replicated with arcane backgrounds, but could as well be edges.Me too as it happens. Thinking of running an online Magic the Gathering type game.
Although having seen a mate's pdf copy I am a bit disappointed with Monks getting Mystic Power which is not an arcane background in its own right, but Bards get their own.
I half expected a Shaintar or Deadlands style approach to monks.
It allows limited magic, in that you can only choose from a small selection given to you. So at basic levels you get Boost, Proection, Smite and Speed. Paladin gets this treatment too. But it is not an AB. Even Bard gets AB Bard which is helka weird.Then what does Mystic Power do?
OK, both approaches make sense, except for it not being an Arcane Background. Or are you limited to one AB? Probably not, but if so, that might be the reason why - to allow paladin/sorcerer or monk/wizard combos.It allows limited magic, in that you can only choose from a small selection given to you. So at basic levels you get Boost, Proection, Smite and Speed. Paladin gets this treatment too. But it is not an AB. Even Bard gets AB Bard which is helka weird.
In my homebrew writeup they get something called Heroic (the old Runequest Gifts, and Heroic abilities) which are xalled Gifts and Training. Which I think works better, and allows a cross-pollination of abilities.
Thing is, if they had AB Magic, and used multi-classing edge that would solve a lot of problemsOK, both approaches make sense, except for it not being an Arcane Background. Or are you limited to one AB? Probably not, but if so, that might be the reason why - to allow paladin/sorcerer or monk/wizard combos.
When it comes time for me to publicly push my project, I intend on doing demos and running one-shots for the locals here where D&D *dominates* the gaming scene.I'm half of the mind of getting this just so I could run it for dedicated D&D groups when the Open RPG Days resume...
Then again, there's still time until then, so I don't need to decide now.
This is my take on their design choice.OK, both approaches make sense, except for it not being an Arcane Background. Or are you limited to one AB? Probably not, but if so, that might be the reason why - to allow paladin/sorcerer or monk/wizard combos.
I'm counting on you!When it comes time for me to publicly push my project, I intend on doing demos and running one-shots for the locals here where D&D *dominates* the gaming scene.
And I will corrupt them with Savage Pathfinder. Mark my words.
Well, personally I'd stick to the "one AB" rule. But multiclassing is a thing in PF, so it doesn't make sense to make its SW variant - a system which is inherently more flexible - to allow less flexibility.This is my take on their design choice.
1) Mystic Powers as a category is there to justify the supernatural abilities that are not full-blown "caster" firepower found in D&D or in their AB analogs.
2) "Multiclassing" in D&D is *not* the same thing narratively or abstractly in Savage Worlds. I would argue that multiclassing in D&D is not really done with its narrative intention intact either. A "class" is presumed to be years of work learning the basic sets of abilities that define the 1st level PC *over* what is presumed to be the rank-and-file populace. A Fighter isn't "just" a man-at-arms, they're a highly trained would-be killing machine. In D&D since 3e, i've seen people flip classes for their "optimal build" without any presumption of in-game play in terms of a campaign or setting. Thankfully, SW has pointed this out. Getting a Class Edge should not be something anyone can just choose without a lot of in-game training.
3) With the reality that SW is primarily skill/Edge based, it's not really necessary to "mulitclass". A character class with Mystic Powers has all their abilities represented within that Class Edge framework. If for instance you wanted to broaden the characters abilities, learning an AB will certainly fill that gap. If the argument is these Class Frameworks need *more* power or flexibility it would dissolve the necessity for SW to maintain its own modularity where *not* choosing a Class Edge should remain a viable choice.
ALL of that said...
Nothing says you can't simple tweak the Mystic Powers rule to say: "AB Edges can be used with them and AB Powerpoints are additive if the PC picks up an AB." Problem solved. It will make those classes pretty powerful by comparison, but I say if your game wants to run high-octane, GO FOR IT.
That said, on the Monk front, you could easily just give then AB magic, and the flavour of their power would be an Organisation edge, like in Shaintar.
If any game warrants breaking the rule about multiple AB's (Pathfinder obviiusly does) then by default so should Savage Pathfinder.
Absolutely true, couldn't agree more.Yup.
Monks having a full-blown AB forces me to make the further claim of -
"What is a Monk?"
D&D Monks seem well represented in "Deadlands" in terms of the AB they received there. They're quite powerful. As far as SWADE goes, or more specifically, SW Pathfinder - the Monk Class Edge is trying to balance the framework against the Monk concept in the d20 Pathfinder game more than anything else.
There's dozens of ways to skin the proverbial cat depending on how you want Monks represented.
D20 metamechanics (Multiclassing) are not part of the design goals of SW. Let's be honest, Multiclassing in D&D has *always* been ugly largely because the conflict of trying to "balance" classes against one another in the context of allowing someone to multi-class, then recapitulating that concept back into the game often rendered core classes obsolete, or sub-optimal, which then reinforces the whole "build mentality". Which forces yet more degradation from the point of what classes were designed for.Well, personally I'd stick to the "one AB" rule. But multiclassing is a thing in PF, so it doesn't make sense to make its SW variant - a system which is inherently more flexible - to allow less flexibility.
Besides, if the player wants a trained monk with magic in his blood, why not? It's a fitting character for a fantasy book, most definitely!
So what the equivalent of every character has a level if one wants to go with that approach?Yup.
Monks having a full-blown AB forces me to make the further claim of -
"What is a Monk?"
D&D Monks seem well represented in "Deadlands" in terms of the AB they received there. They're quite powerful. As far as SWADE goes, or more specifically, SW Pathfinder - the Monk Class Edge is trying to balance the framework against the Monk concept in the d20 Pathfinder game more than anything else.
There's dozens of ways to skin the proverbial cat depending on how you want Monks represented.
Look at Beasts and Barbarians as an example really. It is Conan inspired, and because it is SW still fairly cinematic to be honest.So what the equivalent of every character has a level if one wants to go with that approach?
For example it a bet hard to do this with GURPS Dungeon Fantasy/Dungeon Fantasy RPG 'as is' because character are assumed to be built using 250 points. Which works great provided that your idea of dungeon crawls aligns with that of the author. When you try to use DF material with 100 to 150 point heroic level which was more of what many did before the advent of DF, you have to keep that in mind especially in regards to creatures. It not that hard but it something that can catch someone unawares.
So if one wants to run a more grounded fantasy campaign with SW Pathfinder how much work will it be?
So if one wants to run a more grounded fantasy campaign with SW Pathfinder how much work will it be?
My personal opinion is that a 'Monk' is nothing more than a Fighter with Martial Artist or Warrior, Brawler and Bruiser (To show how they improve their unarmed combat.)Yup.
Monks having a full-blown AB forces me to make the further claim of -
"What is a Monk?"
D&D Monks seem well represented in "Deadlands" in terms of the AB they received there. They're quite powerful. As far as SWADE goes, or more specifically, SW Pathfinder - the Monk Class Edge is trying to balance the framework against the Monk concept in the d20 Pathfinder game more than anything else.
There's dozens of ways to skin the proverbial cat depending on how you want Monks represented.
Outside of the context of Pathfinder, I would say that's a solid concept. Inside the context of Pathfinder, though, that's going to fall pretty far off the mark.My personal opinion is that a 'Monk' is nothing more than a Fighter with Martial Artist or Warrior, Brawler and Bruiser (To show how they improve their unarmed combat.)
To be fair, it's a D&D-ism. And frankly, there's really not much to the class other than a bunch of weird powers that don't all make sense, but then back in 3.x, no one cared about those. it was all about 'Punching For Justice'.Outside of the context of Pathfinder, I would say that's a solid concept. Inside the context of Pathfinder, though, that's going to fall pretty far off the mark.