SECRETS of BLACKMOOR: The True History of D & D Kickstarter

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Possibly my favorite moment is when someone, I think Dave Megarry, says " Dave wasn't the enemy,we loved exploring the situations he set up. "

I'm so sick of "mean old gamemaster" rants on the internet I'm ready to puke so hard blood squirts out my ass.
 
Just watched it there. I can't believe it somehow got worse with all the work done since the initial backer release.

Is what I would be saying except for the fact that the work shows and improves the whole thing! (Just raising your blood pressure a bit there S Secrets of Blakcmoor :grin: !)

All the little tiny details fixed, love the animated sequences and so on. Interested to see TristramEvans TristramEvans review now.

Little bits:
What is the music in the background? Really reminds me of Morrowind.
There's a bunch of accents in there that I've always wondered where exactly they come from. Mainly William Hoyt and Peter Gaylord (whose accent is lovely). Are they specific regional accents?
 
*Feinted*

Man, I was like sheesh, I thought I fixed it!!!

ha ha Well played.

The montage of all the Blackmoor dungeon levels in one 3D animation may be an RPG first. I just had the idea pop out of my head and it looked really cool to see how big Blackmoor dungeon is.

Music is an original score. We may give it out to KickStarter folks on the bonus DVD as gaming music for your own adventures.

Yeah, Bill Hoyt lives out in the sticks. We almost couldn't find his house. And there is no cell coverage even, dontcha know, :grin:

And as always, I ask people to post about it and tell a friend. We really need to the help on the marketing side.
 
So when is the DVD going to be available?
 
We are waiting for a couple more elements like the SPanish CC to get finished.

I can't say when, but we will be sure to make a lot of noise when it's ready.
 
carpocratian said:
Do you know how much the DVD will be?
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The Kick starter DVD is a dual DVD set. I expect the physical 1 disc version without the bonus DVD will be about $20.00.

I think Chris needs to really examine the numbers before he fixes a price on the regular release DVD. Yet we need to consider the price to own the VOD is already 20.00. Where do we put the physical copy on this chart?

Of course the short term rental is only like 6 bucks or so. Pretty cheap really.
 
When will we be learning about what they sacrificed to Cthulhu for inspiration?
 
I need a copy for when I finally get the time to do my "Medieval Play" college course. Half medieval plays and texts on games/hunting/etc., half D&D and WoW and SCA.
 
Secrets of Blakcmoor said:
The Kick starter DVD is a dual DVD set. I expect the physical 1 disc version without the bonus DVD will be about $20.00.

I think Chris needs to really examine the numbers before he fixes a price on the regular release DVD. Yet we need to consider the price to own the VOD is already 20.00. Where do we put the physical copy on this chart?

Of course the short term rental is only like 6 bucks or so. Pretty cheap really.
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$20 is really too much to pay for the digital VOD file. That's why I haven't watched it so far. The price should fall somewhere between the rental and DVD prices. $20 for the 1 disc version of the DVD is a good price point.
 
Gronan of Simmerya said:
Serious suggestion.

You need to do "Secrets of Blackmoor 0.5" and discuss historical miniatures gaming. Seriously. It shaped all our assumptions. Like, it's not a turn-key hobby.
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We do a lot about minis in the movie. People complain: not enough blackmoor and RPG's.

As a market issue, we aren't likely to come back to more on minis. I am broke. Not even sure if I can make it up to Game Hole Con at this point.
 
Gronan of Simmerya said:
Well you talk about people playing minis games, but not much about what that meant. As for people bitching, well, history is what actually happened.

The money part, I can't help with.
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i get where you are coming from. The film story is really focused on how pushing lead becomes an RPG. Minis gaming really isn't a huge discovery as far as the who what and when. And then you have the issue of setting, sea land aerial and what period.

Based on sales so far, it's hard to get gamers to pay to see a movie on RPG's. Imagine if it was solely about pushing lead around a table?

Nope, took the risk on the RPG story, not gonna risk my ass on a movie about minis as much as that is my favorite type of game.

Every time I go up to visit the gang in Minnesota My first question is - What's on for game night? So far I've played civil war minis twice and a naval game. It's my annual vacation to go play whatever minis game they have planned. I am hoping to try some Strategos - N at some point. I did get to play that at Gary Con with Ross Ref'ing and Wesely running the entire opposition. Dave Megarry's wife Rose is a surprisingly good Napoleonics gamer, she kicked butt.

But back to the idea of a movie about minis, what do you think is significant about using Minis? Is it the sort of home made scenario aspect. Is it the terrain realism of seeing a big battle field? How is it different from an AH hex game that really stands out?

And also, are you who is going to help me ref the Fletcher Pratt game at Gary Con? Gonna keep it simple - No torpedoes.
 
Not me on Fletcher Pratt.

Minis... okay, the overwhelming do it yourself aspect, the fact that you were expected to drag your ass to the library and do some research, morale (very important!, and usually subsumed into the AH style combat table), you won't win a battle without taking losses.

That's just off the top of my head. Essentially, all that stuff was in our noggins the first time we went into Blackmoor or Greyhawk, and it influenced those games. I am envisioning a "this is where that came from" sort of thing.

Soon as I win the lottery I'll let you know. Gamers sure are a bunch of cheap shitheels, aren't they.
 
I think there is a select audience that would have been happy with a 12 hour film on this stuff, but it's certainly not enough to be profitable (and I say that as one of those people). I think SoB did an admirable job condensing an important step in games evolution and expressing that through interviews.
 
I wonder what percentage of gamers are interested in the historical aspect of the game they play. Do Monopoly players want to track down those elusive early versions? Do Warhammer players want to trace back early editions to see how the rules changed and evolved? How many role players do this? I guess the sales numbers from the film and Jon Peterson's book might give us a bit of an inkling, but I'll bet that it's a small group overall.

I sometimes talk to my son (in his 20's) about this, what gaming was like in the old days. He doesn't quite give me the eyeroll, but it's clear that he is more interested in where 5E is going than where 0E came from. I'm not sure if it's an age thing or not. I'm a history buff in general, and military history in specific, and so I find the history of RPGs to be totally fascinating -- but in my five-person home group I think I'm the only one. Maybe the fact that I played in those days enhances my interest. Not sure.

Anyway, I'm glad that the film is out. Nice to get folks talking while we still can. :smile:
 
Gamers who talk about games online are a small percentage of the overall gaming community. Gamers who are interested in the history of gaming are a small percentage of the overall gaming community. Gamers like us who are interested in talking about the history of gaming online are a minuscule percentage of the overall community.
 
finarvyn said:
I wonder what percentage of gamers are interested in the historical aspect of the game they play. Do Monopoly players want to track down those elusive early versions?
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Probably not many, but Monopoly hasn't actually changed much, they've just glossed over the purpose of the game.

finarvyn said:
Do Warhammer players want to trace back early editions to see how the rules changed and evolved?
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Sure, it's called The Oldhammer movement. It's pretty big.

finarvyn said:
How many role players do this? I guess the sales numbers from the film and Jon Peterson's book might give us a bit of an inkling, but I'll bet that it's a small group overall.
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Yeah, it's a niche of the OSR which is a niche in a very niche hobby.
 
Games Workshop is very good at driving away their fans. At one point it was supposed to be part of their business model. Anyone who played for more than two years was seen as detracting from their growth. I can see it, us old timers are always complaining instead of squealing about how awesome everything new is.
 
Endless Flight said:
Gamers who talk about games online are a small percentage of the overall gaming community.
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I don't think that's necessarily true anymore given how much everyone is online. They don't do it here or in forums I suspect but at YouTube, Facebook, Reddit etc they might actually approach the majority.

Endless Flight said:
Gamers who are interested in the history of gaming are a small percentage of the overall gaming community. Gamers like us who are interested in talking about the history of gaming online are a minuscule percentage of the overall community.
Click to expand...

True
 
Secrets of Blakcmoor said:
Based on sales so far, it's hard to get gamers to pay to see a movie on RPG's. Imagine if it was solely about pushing lead around a table?
Click to expand...

I think the pricing may be part of that issue, particularly since there isn't a physical media option. For example, I would pay $20-30 for a DVD of something like that, but not $20 for a downloadable file.
 
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finarvyn said:
I wonder what percentage of gamers are interested in the historical aspect of the game they play.
Click to expand...

A niche of a niche

finarvyn said:
I sometimes talk to my son (in his 20's) about this, what gaming was like in the old days. He doesn't quite give me the eyeroll, but it's clear that he is more interested in where 5E is going than where 0E came from.
Click to expand...

It about show not tell. People like OD&D in my area because I run interesting campaigns using the rules. Once in a great while I will relay something from the forums or books like Peterson but for the most part I get their attention through the games I run.

The other thing I do is coach players through various situations as many are not used to the lack of rules. Nor they are particularly knowledable about various aspect of medieval history. So I coach them until they are up to speed. Since coaching is more about showing than telling it dovetails nicely with the above.
 
Gronan of Simmerya said:
Not me on Fletcher Pratt.

Minis... okay, the overwhelming do it yourself aspect, the fact that you were expected to drag your ass to the library and do some research, morale (very important!, and usually subsumed into the AH style combat table), you won't win a battle without taking losses.

That's just off the top of my head. Essentially, all that stuff was in our noggins the first time we went into Blackmoor or Greyhawk, and it influenced those games. I am envisioning a "this is where that came from" sort of thing.

Soon as I win the lottery I'll let you know. Gamers sure are a bunch of cheap shitheels, aren't they.
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I am so with you about this idea of we made the things ourselves. Me - Made - It!

I talk a bit in a recent podcast about the difference between the new school gamers and old school gamers. I understand how it got the way it is. Yet, I keep posting on our twitter account about DIY and that our sources for our games were historical sources. Dave and Gary made a game that was like getting a saw and hammer and then you build the shed yourself.

When I talk to newer gamers they can tell me everything about the game canon, but they can't talk about what a real castle or tomb is like. they don't read anything historical, or look at real maps of real places.

So while there is this whole movement of supposed Old School gamer, most of them seem to want product, and that is not what the original generation was about.

I was ruminating about my own path of discovery. Not really knowing jack about anything as 14 year old, I found a copy of Herodetus in my parent's library, So i read that hoping to glean some medieval type knowledge for my campaign. those of us who are on a journey of personal discovery began like that and it never ended.

A couple years later I found this series of books. They were for children, but geez now I know how and why a castle it how it is. He even shows you were the toilets are!

www.the-best-childrens-books.org

Castle and Cathedral by David Macaulay

Click here to learn more about the books 'Castle' and 'Cathedral', including reading level, a peek inside, book details...
www.the-best-childrens-books.org

But the kids just want to talk about the thing in the 50 dollar book.

As a kid I started a D&D group at my local library. I was also perusing the stacks for things to read. I think kids are too lazy to actually find their own resources for their games.

You can't beat up the kids for not knowing, all you can do is lead by example.

griff
 
carpocratian said:
I think the pricing may be part of that issue, particularly since there isn't a physical media option. For example, I would pay $20-30 for a DVD of something like that, but not $20 for a downloadable file.
Click to expand...

It's sort of funny to me. People will go to a theatre and pay something like 50 bucks for 2 tickets and popcorn and drinks to a block buster movie that they must see.

You can watch our movie for 6 dollars anywhere in the world with Internet. There already is English CC for those how need it. We are about to add on Spanish CC so that the huge number of people in latin countries can use that to watch it.

The 20 dollar fee is for the new generation of online folk. They actually do not want physical objects, they only want access on an unlimited basis. A lot of those people don't even own any physical music they listen to, it's all just a code from Apple Music.

DVD's will be out soon, along with Blu Ray. ;)

But the real issue is simply marketing. We rely on a grass roots movement of people telling their friends either online, or in person that the film has value and that they should see it.

As soon as we have the DVD ready with both CC options on it, we will begin to do marketing on it via FB ads and Google banner ads, so things should change.

Chris and I had a huge laugh over a fan who messaged us and told us he would be showing the video on demand to something like 30 people at his game club. It was a supportive message along the lines of: not to worry lots of people will see your film now!

We were really amused by that.
 
When I go to the movies, I'm going for the experience of going to the movies. So being able to watch it from the house isn't an advantage in that case. Comparing it to going to the movies is extreme false equivalence.

And honestly I don't know who you think the 20 dollar version is for. I'm the kind of person who doesn't mind owning some things digital only, but I don't want to buy something digital only for the same price I would pay for physical media. Especially not one from a company I can't guarantee will be around if there are issues.

And as for the $6 price: even when I rented things, I didn't pay that much to rent a movie.

You can complain about people being cheap all you want, but your business practices either evolve or die. When most of your audience is older (the people who would be interested in this kind of documentary), you can't charge physical prices for digital media.
 
EmperorNorton said:
I'm the kind of person who doesn't mind owning some things digital only, but I don't want to buy something digital only for the same price I would pay for physical media. Especially not one from a company I can't guarantee will be around if there are issues.
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This. I stopped buying physical media years ago and expect lower pricing for digital versions. Call me cheap or whatever.
 
I just rented it, cheaper than going to the movies, and watched it twice in72 hours. Want the DVD but kinda tempted to wait to find one of the 2disc KS versions on the secondary market
 
Well, it's an issue of having a bank behind a project, which we do not.

If you are a business person you know that a business is a cash flow problem at all times. You put money in to begin and you are in the hole. Then you get money from sales and pay the business back. The idea is to create more money going in than money going out.

The film industry is geared toward the big movie houses. They have huge catalogs of movies they can put online, thus they get better deals for streaming. By the time you se an indy film on netflix, or any other big platform, they are likely played out on sales and just finished. Most people I know who have done indy films never made back their investment. Something on a par with 50,000 indy movies get made per year and most just end up on the wreckage heap. It's literally a graveyard of crushed dreams.

If someone like Will Smith is in a film, he gets a ridiculous amount of money up front just for putting his name on the film. The investors types, producers, see that and they throw in more money. Then they have backing to put the movie title and photo of star on your fast food soft drink cup so everyone knows about it. I remember when my Daughter was little, there was no way I was gonna get out of taking her to the movie theatre to see the latest disney movie, it was everywhere she looked. ;)

It's just a different beast when you do indy films, but it's fun as heck to make a movie. I have a friend who put his feature film on Amazon and made like 5k because it's unknown. Sadly he spent about 100k of his own money to make it. Some people buy expensive cars, other people make movies. Last I heard he is making yet another film for about the same amount of money, probably another financial failure, but he has the addiction.

We'll see how it works out as to prices and such. Nothing is written in stone.

i will talk to Chris about some of the comments here. As a team, we talk, but I leave some things up to Chris to determine because I trust that he knows what he is doing.

Griff
 
Secrets of Blakcmoor said:
It's sort of funny to me. People will go to a theatre and pay something like 50 bucks for 2 tickets and popcorn and drinks to a block buster movie that they must see.

You can watch our movie for 6 dollars anywhere in the world with Internet. There already is English CC for those how need it. We are about to add on Spanish CC so that the huge number of people in latin countries can use that to watch it.
Click to expand...

I can only speak for myself on this, but I stopped going to movies in theaters about 20 years ago, and I don't rent movies. Your rental price is on par with most rental prices I see, though. It is the $20 to download and "own" the file that I think is off, since that is pretty much the same price as buying a DVD, which has additional production costs.

I will buy it on DVD when it comes out, though, as long as it isn't over $30.
 
finarvyn said:
I wonder what percentage of gamers are interested in the historical aspect of the game they play. Do Monopoly players want to track down those elusive early versions? Do Warhammer players want to trace back early editions to see how the rules changed and evolved? How many role players do this?
Click to expand...
I have no idea about those numbers, but it depends on the value that averages the price and my interest in the game:smile:.
Example: I bought Warhammer 1e on a Humble Bundle, because I like Warhammer...though my preferred version at the time was 2e. I wanted to see the evolution in the rules and in the presentation of the setting.
Same thing with Exalted...I currently have the corebooks for all three editions (1e only due to a Bundle of Holding, though I've found I like its approach to the setting) and various supplements.
Same for Tekumel.
Same for Classic Traveller. My preferred versions are newer (Mongoose, Cepheus and T4/T5). But I was interested in the Bundle of Classic Traveller, and I appreciate the approach back in those books...granted, it took Christopher Kubasik's blog posts on Classic Traveller Out Of The Box to get me interested. But then it's the settings that interest me more, and he was pointing to differences in the assumed setting:wink:.

I have zero interest in doing the same with Monopoly, MtG or various other games that interest me less, and especially with those without settings::shade:.
 
I thought the $6 for the rental was just fine. (And I will be buying a disc version once I'm able to, if only for teaching reasons. Hello, research account!)
 
That is a good point Fin makes about tracing back origins and who is likely to give a snot about it.

Jon Peterson's book was a huge step forward in providing a concrete historical basis for everyone to be able to explore this history. People will attack Jon for some of the details, I know I do, yet it is a seminal work and people will be referring to it for time to come.

My attitude is a bit snarky about research projects and I sum it up as: When you spend large portions of your personal wealth and time to make something I salute you.

How many gamers actually read Jon's book compared to how many gamers are playing games? It's likely a fraction of that greater number.

It will be the same with Secrets of Blackmoor. We know our demographic and it is mostly 99.9% middle aged males who play, or played, Dungeons & Dragons. These are real numbers we get from online ads we've run.

With the film there is an added angle of story. People get sucked into stories. I am culling footage for the bonus DVD that only Kick Starter and Backer Kit supporters will get and I am finding so much footage that is just plain interesting and isn't specifically about games.

So the real draw for the film is seeing people who are describing their personal experience. To be able to watch that is really special. I was there doing the interviews and I am often surprised at what came out of them. When you are shooting you are under all kinds of pressure of time and running a crew, so you do it and kind of forget what you did, and then you have to travel to the next interview as it is a 14 hour work day. The crew eats in the car as you drive between locations. You are always thinking and preparing during down time.

We have several interviews with Malia, Dave's daughter, and her perspective and choice of subjects is very interesting. I found a clip where i asked her about her sense of pride over what her father accomplished. She talks about how her father made this tool for people to create friendships and that is where her pride comes from.

I liked the clip so much that I am editing a 90 second long piece to post on youtube with it. I just think her viewpoint is fascinating.

My hope is that people will discover this film as an avenue for being able to get to know all the original RPG players. They are incredible people and their stories are wonderful.

Griff
 
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I'm going to agree that it is worth $20 from the but
Secrets of Blakcmoor said:
That is a good point Fin makes about tracing back origins and who is likely to give a snot about it.

Jon Peterson's book was a huge step forward in providing a concrete historical basis for everyone to be able to explore this history. People will attack Jon for some of the details, I know I do, yet it is a seminal work and people will be referring to it for time to come.

My attitude is a bit snarky about research projects and I sum it up as: When you spend large portions of your personal wealth and time to make something I salute you.

How many gamers actually read Jon's book compared to how many gamers are playing games? It's likely a fraction of that greater number.

It will be the same with Secrets of Blackmoor. We know our demographic and it is mostly 99.9% middle aged males who play, or played, Dungeons & Dragons. These are real numbers we get from online ads we've run.

With the film there is an added angle of story. People get sucked into stories. I am culling footage for the bonus DVD that only Kick Starter and Backer Kit supporters will get and I am finding so much footage that is just plain interesting and isn't specifically about games.

So the real draw for the film is seeing people who are describing their personal experience. To be able to watch that is really special. I was there doing the interviews and I am often surprised at what came out of them. When you are shooting you are under all kinds of pressure of time and running a crew, so you do it and kind of forget what you did, and then you have to travel to the next interview as it is a 14 hour work day. The crew eats in the car as you drive between locations. You are always thinking and preparing during down time.

We have several interviews with Malia, Dave's daughter, and her perspective and choice of subjects is very interesting. I found a clip where i asked her about her sense of pride over what her father accomplished. She talks about how her father made this tool for people to create friendships and that is where her pride comes from.

I liked the clip so much that I am editing a 90 second long piece to post on youtube with it. I just think her viewpoint is fascinating.

My hope is that people will discover this film as an avenue for being able to get to know all the original RPG players. They are incredible people and their stories are wonderful.

Griff
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Will you ever make the KS bonus material available to non backers?
 
Yeah. We have boxes of T-shirts and Boxes of dice bags.

We are finishing up the DVD. I am culling Bonus DVD material. Ok, I got distracted:

It's really hinged on the spanish language CC right now.

It is too expensive to mail out T-shirts and Dice bags without the DVD's.

Are you a backer?

If you are, thank you!

Griff
 
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