Sell me on (or off) of Flames of War.

[Stumpydave]

I tried getting into Bolt Action (twice!) but those Soviet minis I bought years ago never even left the box, let alone not getting painted.
But I remembered there was a lot of activity around Flames of War back in the day and now I've got the 3d printing bug I can see a fair amount of WW2 15mm stuff.

I've looked at the Flames of War website but I found it too confusing.

Anyone here play it? Is it any good?

 

[Fenris-77]

I played a bunch of it when it hit back in the day. I love the scale and the minis and it's a fun game. Super easy to make terrain for too. I had just finished re-watching Band of Brothers at the time so naturally I made an Airborne force.

 

[Brock Savage]

I tried getting into Bolt Action (twice!) but those Soviet minis I bought years ago never even left the box, let alone not getting painted.

I am sitting on an unassembled Bolt Action USMC platoon. Too many miniature games, too little time.

I can't speak specifically for Flames of War but 15mm is a great scale and I sincerely wish it was more mainstream as I find it superior to 28mm for platoon- and company-sized engagements (I have a copy of Gruntz 15mm on my workbench as I type this). I believe that 28mm scale is best suited for modern/future skirmishes at the squad and fireteam level but 40k tries to cram a company's worth of minis on the table.

 

[yosemitemike]

One thing to note is that the game is split into three periods: early war, mid-war and late war. Armies for one period can't really be played against armies from different periods very well. The way armies are built is pretty specific so you will want to get a handle on how that works before buying models.

 

[David Johansen]

I've played a fair bit and sell it in my store. It's not a perfect historical sim or anything but it plays well. If you've played Warhammer 40k or Bolt Action the durability of dug in infantry will surprise you. But it's pretty fast and fun. The current edition has lots of plastics which is good because the quaility of the resin casting got a bit rough when they were booming. That said, it takes me about 15 minutes to assemble a plastic tank and about 5 to assemble a resin one. The Plastic Soldier Company has some nice plastics in 1/100 but they're a bit smaller and the infantry is less detailed if more realistic and more in scale with the vehicles.

 

[yosemitemike]

It's definitely a beer & pretzels sort of game but I find that I prefer that sort of game over a more complex one these days. I used to play ASL but I prefer games like this or something like Combat Commander from GMT Games these days. I just don't have anyone to play wargames with these days and interest in Flames of War collapsed around here years ago. I got mid-war British around the time that interest died and everyone went back to 40k and they have been sitting in the box ever since.

 

[Simlasa]

I've never played it but my impression of Flames of War is that it's a bit like 40K using WWII minis... fun, but not particularly concerned with the history or plausible tactics. The FoW tables I've seen often have LOTS of tanks and not nearly enough infantry supporting them... but could be a fluke.
My own preference is for Chain of Command, which can be played in a variety of scales (though I go 15mm) and (I think) and usually with smaller forces than FoW players tend towards. Not complex, but probably not suited for 'tournament' style gaming either.

 

[David Johansen]

Flames of War armies are generally Tank Companies, Armored Companies, or Infantry Companies each of which can get elements of the others and aircraft as "divisional support" Tank companies get the first turn against Armoured Companies and Infantry companies and Armoured Companies go first against Infantry Companies.

The game play is I go you go with movement, shooting, and assault phases in that order. Units have a quality level like recruits, regulars, and elites and a motivation level. These determine their chance to hit, their skill check chance, and whether they break and run when reduced to half. There are small lists of circumstance modifiers and special unit rules. The current edition has stat cards for units in the boxed sets but the stats can also be found in the army / theater lists. There's generally two or three army books per theater, they're cheaper and thinner than the previous edition's books but a worse deal if you're buying everything.

 

[Toadmaster]

I've never played it but my impression of Flames of War is that it's a bit like 40K using WWII minis... fun, but not particularly concerned with the history or plausible tactics. The FoW tables I've seen often have LOTS of tanks and not nearly enough infantry supporting them... but could be a fluke.
My own preference is for Chain of Command, which can be played in a variety of scales (though I go 15mm) and (I think) and usually with smaller forces than FoW players tend towards. Not complex, but probably not suited for 'tournament' style gaming either.

I dabbled with it in the early 2000s. 40K is a fair comparison, to me FoW was a fairly easy fast playing game, but lacked realism.

 

[Toadmaster]

I am sitting on an unassembled Bolt Action USMC platoon. Too many miniature games, too little time.

I can't speak specifically for Flames of War but 15mm is a great scale and I sincerely wish it was more mainstream as I find it superior to 28mm for platoon- and company-sized engagements (I have a copy of Gruntz 15mm on my workbench as I type this). I believe that 28mm scale is best suited for modern/future skirmishes at the squad and fireteam level but 40k tries to cram a company's worth of minis on the table.

Agree on 15mm, particularly with the quality of minis these days. Used to be 15mm figures were pretty crude, but they improved considerably by the early 2000s and even more so these days.

I think 25-32mm will always have an edge for RPGs simply because it is easier to show individual personality, but 15-20mm is far more practical for any games using lots of minis and anything close to realistic combat ranges.

 

[Brock Savage]

Agree on 15mm, particularly with the quality of minis these days. Used to be 15mm figures were pretty crude, but they improved considerably by the early 2000s and even more so these days.

I think 25-32mm will always have an edge for RPGs simply because it is easier to show individual personality, but 15-20mm is far more practical for any games using lots of minis and anything close to realistic combat ranges.

Not only has the quality and variety of 15mm improved over the past couple decades but you still get a lot of bang for your buck. I can field a complete 15mm sci fi army with all the options I want for 60-70 USD which is roughly the cost of a single 40k vehicle or half of a 20-man unit.

 

[David Johansen]

In terms of alternate rulesets I'm fond of Battle Group by the Plastic Soldier Company. Well thought out, scalable, and allows for a wider range of results than FOW. In particular you roll for how many units you get to activate on your turn based on the size of the game. This is a nice alternative to I Go You Go in that you almost never face the other side's full firepower before you even get to move.

 

[DeadBob]

My own preference is for Chain of Command, which can be played in a variety of scales (though I go 15mm) and (I think) and usually with smaller forces than FoW players tend towards. Not complex, but probably not suited for 'tournament' style gaming either.

Oh, tell me more abut this one. I keep seeing it mentioned, but I've never played it. (Have watched a demo video)

If Infantry is more your thing, there's also Crossfire! iffyou can track down a copy. Very different mechanically from lots of other stuff. Vehicles can be used in small numbers, but the infantry is absolutely the focus of play.

 

[Toadmaster]

Not only has the quality and variety of 15mm improved over the past couple decades but you still get a lot of bang for your buck. I can field a complete 15mm sci fi army with all the options I want for 60-70 USD which is roughly the cost of a single 40k vehicle or half of a 20-man unit.

Sure, vehicles in particular. That is actually what led me to Flames of War. Their resin/metal vehicles were good quality, easy to assemble and quite a bit cheaper than 1/72 models, which are roughly 25mm. I bought some of the minis for RPGs and then tried out the core rules to see if I was interested in getting into that aspect of it.

Computer games have really diminished my interest in tabletop wargames.

 

[DeadBob]

IME, mixing 1/72 and 25mm will make you very, very sad even if you tend to be a bit loose about miniatures scale differences.

 

[Toadmaster]

IME, mixing 1/72 and 25mm will make you very, very sad even if you tend to be a bit loose about miniatures scale differences.

Mixing figures, yes, but using 1/72 vehicles with actual 25mm figures works ok, as 1/72 is 1" = 6 feet, while 25mm is a touch larger 1" = 5 to 5-1/2 feet-ish. 1/x scales measure a fixed distance, figure scales measure to the eye, not top of the head.

The bigger problem is most 25mm RPG minis are really 28-32mm these days which exaggerates the scale difference as the larger ones approach 1/48 scale. Of course this is also an issue mixing classic Grenadier, Ral Partha etc figures with Games Workshop.

 

[DeadBob]

Even mixing older 25mm minis with 1/72 is tricky. It may not be quite as bad with vehicles or terrain, but it is amazingly obvious when comparing 1/72 people miniatures to 25mm people miniatures.

Not that I've never done it.

Plus, I don't think there are a whole lot of modern 25mm makers are there? There are lots of 1/72 makers.

In any case, I only mention for the benefit of anyone not familiar with the two mentioned scales.

I've often noticed that folks without firsthand background in the two scales will hear that gaming minis are 25mm scale ( they aren't and haven't been for years on the whole, especially not most popular lines) and that 1/72 are 25mm scale also (they're usually closer to 20mm and are generally vastly thinner than anything made in metal).

And they'll get really excited! Look! A whole troop of medieval mounted nights for less than the cost of a single knight from Big Game Minis Company X!

Except of course, they're nothing like the same size in practice. Not even close. Regardless of the math.

Anyway, there's a nice scale comparison pic here

 

[Toadmaster]

Even mixing older 25mm minis with 1/72 is tricky. It may not be quite as bad with vehicles or terrain, but it is amazingly obvious when comparing 1/72 people miniatures to 25mm people miniatures.

Not that I've never done it.

Plus, I don't think there are a whole lot of modern 25mm makers are there? There are lots of 1/72 makers.

In any case, I only mention for the benefit of anyone not familiar with the two mentioned scales.

I've often noticed that folks without firsthand background in the two scales will hear that gaming minis are 25mm scale ( they aren't and haven't been for years on the whole, especially not most popular lines) and that 1/72 are 25mm scale also (they're usually closer to 20mm and are generally vastly thinner than anything made in metal).

And they'll get really excited! Look! A whole troop of medieval mounted nights for less than the cost of a single knight from Big Game Minis Company X!

Except of course, they're nothing like the same size in practice. Not even close. Regardless of the math.

Anyway, there's a nice scale comparison pic here

Figure scales are soft, like railroad scales. Model scales are theoretically better, until the companies rebox an old box scale kit and slap a "close" standard scale, or something like Airfix which has offered both 1/76 and 1/72, but sometimes rebox the 1/76 kits as the more popular 1/72 scale.

Add to this that people have gotten taller, so companies going for accuracy may make figures from "antiquity" (pre-19th century) a bit smaller, than "modern" figures. Then you have "heroic" figures which go the other way and tend to be a tad larger.

In theory 1/72 is 23-24mm scale.


Yeah, it is a bit of a mess, best bet is not to get too hung up on the scale, and rely on the eyeball ruler if mixing brands. One area where online sales falls far behind a good brick and mortar shop, because it is tough to hold a figure in your hand online.



This site has a good breakdown of the actual sizes of different scales.

The Complete Guide to Miniature Size and Scale

 

[DeadBob]

That is a very good link. I was considering posting that one as well.

I absolutely agree about the usefulness of seeing the stuff side by side before purchase, too.

 

[StonesThree]

The tanks are easy to assemble and paint. Last year I picked up a few of the cheaper starter box sets to paint up as a side project. I like them. I even went all fancy and used magnets to hold the turrets onto the body. As others have mentioned you can use these with any 15mm WW2 ruleset.

It's on my list of games to try when an old gamer friend from my uni days drops in for one of his infrequant visits. As usual I seem to have discovered it years after its prime when everybody else seems to have abandoned it. Only one of the 3 FLGS I visit still carrys it. One staff member I spoke to said it was "dead" and its all about Bolt Action these days. I get the impression that there was some edition war going on, or burnout with the latest "upgrade" to the rules in the fanbase? Who knows.

 

[David Johansen]

The thing is that the current edtion of Flames of War hasn't gotten the sheer depth of support the previous one did. It also exchanged nice, tidy, stat lines for bulky and cumbersome cards. The current edition is much better as a consumer product but not nearly as good as a resource. It's also more expensive per army list and the plastic tanks, while lovely, take three times as long to assemble as the resin ones. Assuming there's no mould damage and block in to chisel out, of course.

 

[Cessna]

I got a bit into it:

Those are old photos; I roughly doubled the size of the Soviet army since that was taken.

It's a fun, fast game. I don't like the new edition as much as the previous (3rd) edition, but that's entirely personal preference. There's nothing wrong with it; it's not particularly GREAT, but it delivers a good game.