Sexy men & The Goose Conspiracy

Shipyard Locked

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I would post the specific quote in the Are female D&D players comfier around male D&D players these days? that I believe crossed the line, but it was deleted along with my reply to it, which I think was the correct move.

I just want to clarify something for the future however.

Can we at least agree that making general statements about men that would sound insulting if we replaced the words man/male with some minority group are inherently political and should be avoided?

I think the fact that we could have easily and heatedly quibbled back and forth for ages on this issue in that thread is evidence that we should discourage it going forward. I take responsibility for politically escalating the exchange, but I felt it should be called out to avoid an embarrassing double standard for the pub.
 

A Fiery Flying Roll

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This likely needs a board ruling, so until we say we're giving one please assume that mods are stating personal opinion, not policy.

There are also replies etc. in that thread that could be justifiably deleted. I'm happy to if people want; my assumption was that after people had taken note and moved on there wasn't much point. If people think that was the wrong call, do say so.

This is one of these things that is contextual, so I'm afraid my answer is going to be more complex than just a black and white statement.

Yes, generalisations should be avoided, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all statements that mention a difference need to be if those statements are factual.

So "women have a higher chance of being physically harmed by men than vice versa" is, depending on context, reasonably likely to be fine. What isn't fine (and I think might be what you're objecting to here) is to extrapolate from that to make sweeping judgements about men in general.

In the same way, in a thread about mental health, I'd be unlikely to moderate a statement that middle aged men are most at risk of dying from suicide. I don't think the fact women can also commit suicide means we can't recognise the specific issues for men there.

Personal anecdotes are more complex (and I do see the irony that the latest kerfuffle was, from what I can tell, entirely a discussion between men about violence against women).

Generally, I'm fine with personal anecdotes. They shouldn't be used to generalise but talking about someone's own experiences are fine. Talking about someone else's experiences is a bit more borderline, but can be fine.

To give specific hypotheticals as much as I can:

"I was sexually harrassed when I tried to join a RPG group at the local store" - Absolutely fine and I'd hope posters here are adult enough to treat the issue with some sensitivity.

"A significant number of women have horror stories about RPG groups" - More debatable, but I think largely fine as it's pretty easy to demonstrate that is the case.

"The RPG community is hostile to women" - Too broad a brush. Be more specific.

"The problem with the RPG community is that geeks all hate women" - Definitely not.

All of that links with my view that any statement in these kind of contentious areas needs at least strong circumstantial evidence or better if someone is going to make a statement, but where that evidence exists we don't have to ignore it as "political". Interpretation of data can be political though and people need to watch that.

Generally, if you can't prove something beyond reasonable doubt, don't post it.
 

Shipyard Locked

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... but where that evidence exists we don't have to ignore it as "political". Interpretation of data can be political though and people need to watch that.

I can abide by that standard.

Share all the statistics and facts you want on this site, but don't tell me they should inevitably lead to specific conclusions, behaviors or policies that will conveniently tar your chosen boogeymen. That's for other forums.
 

TristramEvans

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I don't think we need a specific ruling on it, as I see it covered by "No Politics", but speaking for myself, I am deadset ethically opposed to the concept of "acceptable targets", so when we say "no sexism or racism will be tolerated" that means women, men, transgender, black, white, asian, etc.

Personally I'm not even very comfortable with any sort of generalizations of groups, something I've pushed back against in the recent thread, but there's a bit more leeway there just to accommodate discussion.
 

thebigh

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In my experience discussions of gender get heated faster than just about anything. The last thing I'd want to see here is people yelling at each other in some battle-of-the-sexes bull.

I am deadset ethically opposed to the concept of "acceptable targets", so when we say "no sexism or racism will be tolerated" that means women, men, transgender, black, white, asian, etc.

..and the 2nd-last thing I'd want to see is "no hating on people for their race or gender except when you're 'punching up'". So yes, I agree entirely with you.
 

TristramEvans

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Generally speaking, the Pub just isn't the venue for these sorts of discussions at all. Mentioning something in the context of RPGs is one thing, but the wider social debates need to be had elsewhere online: that's sorta the point of The Pub.
 

Necrozius

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...is prefacing my statements with "in my experiences" or "based on the people I knew" not enough? Holy geez
 

thebigh

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If only evading the "no politics" rule was that easy.

"Curses! Foiled again! He said 'Based on people I've met, all Republicrats are knaves and poltroons'! That's technically not politics!"

[powerless Black Leaf meeping intensifies]
 

chuckdee

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I would post the specific quote in the Are female D&D players comfier around male D&D players these days? that I believe crossed the line, but it was deleted along with my reply to it, which I think was the correct move.

I just want to clarify something for the future however.

Can we at least agree that making general statements about men that would sound insulting if we replaced the words man/male with some minority group are inherently political and should be avoided?

I think the fact that we could have easily and heatedly quibbled back and forth for ages on this issue in that thread is evidence that we should discourage it going forward. I take responsibility for politically escalating the exchange, but I felt it should be called out to avoid an embarrassing double standard for the pub.
It wasn't a generalization though. It was statistical that women have a higher chance of a fatal decision on a date than men. It was taken as a generalization in an uncharitable reading imo.

The point was clarified and after that clarification it was apparently needed to say lwts move on... but this was brought up. Why do we need a ruling... just a glitch and move on as happened.
 

Shipyard Locked

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It wasn't a generalization though. It was statistical that women have a higher chance of a fatal decision on a date than men. It was taken as a generalization in an uncharitable reading imo.

The point was clarified and after that clarification it was apparently needed to say lwts move on... but this was brought up. Why do we need a ruling... just a glitch and move on as happened.

The statistic wouldn't have been the issue, stated in a neutral tone. Sure, people could argue about sources or context, but it would be easy enough to drop right there, we basically know it's true, more or less.

However, the specific quote used in the post (as I recall since it was mod removed) interpreted the statistic in an incendiary manner that, frankly, reminded me of a polite racist justifying their paranoid behavior toward minorities based on violent crime statistics in LA or Chicago or something. We wouldn't stand for the latter I think, we shouldn't stand for the former.

Since you're here, please note chuckdee chuckdee that I'm not upset at you and this won't affect my interactions with you in the future. Many people casually cite such language without realizing it isn't politically neutral at this time in the US. My concern is that I don't want the pub to pick up a reputation for being covertly left or right wing while stating seemingly clueless platitudes about neutrality. Like it or not, double standards about "acceptable targets" are highly inflammatory and a great recruiting tool for certain movements we really shouldn't feed.
 

chuckdee

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The statistic wouldn't have been the issue, stated in a neutral tone. Sure, people could argue about sources or context, but it would be easy enough to drop right there, we basically know it's true, more or less.

However, the specific quote used in the post (as I recall since it was mod removed) interpreted the statistic in an incendiary manner that, frankly, reminded me of a polite racist justifying their paranoid behavior toward minorities based on violent crime statistics in LA or Chicago or something. We wouldn't stand for the latter I think, we shouldn't stand for the former.

Since you're here, please note chuckdee chuckdee that I'm not upset at you and this won't affect my interactions with you in the future. Many people casually cite such language without realizing it isn't politically neutral at this time in the US. My concern is that I don't want the pub to pick up a reputation for being covertly left or right wing while stating seemingly clueless platitudes about neutrality. Like it or not, double standards about "acceptable targets" are highly inflammatory and a great recruiting tool for certain movements we really shouldn't feed.
I didn't particularly think it was incendiary. Just that historically the largest danger to women has been men. It might be a bit of a hyperbole- but I think we can list men in the top dangers to women without saying that we're singling out all men as a problem, and I don't think it was ever meant to be generalized to all men. It's just that many men don't realize that the concerns of women in their day to day life and their particular fears are a lot different than they are for men. And it wasn't meant as a generalization. And definitely I don't think warranted a whole thread about generalizing against men.
 

spittingimage

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"Curses! Foiled again! He said 'Based on people I've met, all Republicrats are knaves and poltroons'! That's technically not politics!"
How dare you! As a knave and poltroon myself, I'll have you know --

Nah. I don't want to do this, even as a joke.
 

Toadmaster

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My deleted comment was entirely fact based and I don't see how it was the least bit controversial. Cliffs notes and from memory since the comment was deleted but I was addressing the how do we get more women into our hobby and why don't female dominated hobbies have the same concern.

Since the 1970s there has been a major push to get women into historically male dominated fields like emergency services, trades, STEM careers. It only makes sense to me that we see hobbies that heavily skew male reacting similarly.

Just as we don't see a lot of concern about getting more men into female dominated careers, it makes sense that we don't see a lot of concern about getting more men into female dominated hobbies.
 

Dammit Victor

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To give specific hypotheticals as much as I can:

"I was sexually harrassed when I tried to join a RPG group at the local store" - Absolutely fine and I'd hope posters here are adult enough to treat the issue with some sensitivity.

"A significant number of women have horror stories about RPG groups" - More debatable, but I think largely fine as it's pretty easy to demonstrate that is the case.

"The RPG community is hostile to women" - Too broad a brush. Be more specific.

"The problem with the RPG community is that geeks all hate women" - Definitely not.
You're drawing the line where I would want it to be drawn, and all of my general complaint on this subject has been rooted in the fear world-weary prognostication of it being moved upwards.

I didn't particularly think it was incendiary. Just that historically the largest danger to women has been men. It might be a bit of a hyperbole- but I think we can list men in the top dangers to women without saying that we're singling out all men as a problem, and I don't think it was ever meant to be generalized to all men. It's just that many men don't realize that the concerns of women in their day to day life and their particular fears are a lot different than they are for men.

Imagine that All Men are like a bowl of Skittles...

It isn't just that many men don't realize the disparity, because how would they if they were not made aware of it by a woman in their life? Unless a man is engaged in some form of social work or antisocial work that exposes them to victims, they literally do not have any way of knowing what the statistical incidence of that kind of violence really is... or what women tell girls to try to keep them safe. That's high trust information because it's deeply personal and because it's one of the most common triggers of sexual and/or domestic violence.

The problem is that many men, upon being made aware of these facts, choose to dismiss them. Personal anecdotes are... just that, and no number of them can actually reflect the everyday experience of "most women". Statistical evidence about sexual violence couldn't possibly be as bad as it looks, because we don't personally know any perpetrators or victims, and our own personal knowledge must reflect the everyday experience of "most women". The smaller the problem is, after all, the easier it is not to be a part of it.
 
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chuckdee

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How about you post the the thing you quoted here for discussion?
Yeah, I'm not going down that path. As was already clearly stated, this is not the forum for such discussions. As it's not my board, I'm respecting the mods wishes. The root thing is there was no intent to generalize and there is no need to police something - we just pave over it and keep going. That should be enough rather than to try to prove one side or the other. No one ever comes out of those conversations unscathed.
 

chuckdee

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"I was sexually harrassed when I tried to join a RPG group at the local store" - Absolutely fine and I'd hope posters here are adult enough to treat the issue with some sensitivity.

"A significant number of women have horror stories about RPG groups" - More debatable, but I think largely fine as it's pretty easy to demonstrate that is the case.

"The RPG community is hostile to women" - Too broad a brush. Be more specific.

"The problem with the RPG community is that geeks all hate women" - Definitely not.
Sounds good and rational to me- not sure why there'd need to be a discussion beyond that line.
 

Toadmaster

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Unfortunately, I don't recall your deleted comment. Whatever it was, it's not what I objected to.

The mods would have to comment, but I suspect it went as it was in the vein of discussion that they were trying to steer away from. I was just surprised, but didn't comment until this thread as it quickly became clear I had missed some comments that were perhaps more political in nature.

I understand removing relatively benign comments that may continue a heated subject. Also possible that although I don't recall anything as edgy that some examples or statements in my actual post may have been closer to some line than my repost of the gist of my comments. 50 years of political action does tend to drip into general social consciousness.
 

Raleel

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Not the only member I noticed quietly leave. Was looking for tenbones the other day and realized I hadn’t seen anything in a good long while
 
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