So about The Fantasy Trip

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If you got in your time machine and went back to 1978-1980 you'd find a couple of games that we now think of as stand alone systems but really started as 'patches' for bolting onto D+D. And, of course, D+D was much more loosey goosey back then, so it was easy to find places where you'd bolt them on. A creative person could do the same now. That said, I think the more natural approach is to use TFT as a coherent complete system and just adapt setting materials, new spells, etc. from other games, rather than trying to merge combat and magic from TFT with stats and skills and so forth from other systems. Yes, it can be done as a sort of white-room exercise, but is the effort really worth it when the combat system is 2/3 of the whole game and the other 1/3 is sitting in front of you in the same book?
The Atlantis Trilogy started out this way first as the Complete "X" series and then as Arcanum etc.
I believe Rolemaster started that way as Arms Law and Claw law, alternate combat systems for FRPGs(D&D)
Can't think of others but I'm sure they are there.
 
You can do it, but the logic and what is hard to defeat or survive and why are very different in TFT compared to D&D-style games where there are levels and piles of hitpoints and different kinds of magic and immunities and so on.

In TFT, fighting a few humanoids is often a matter of life and death and it comes down to the situation (positions facings, who hits who first, the map layout, terrain, etc), tactics, equipment, to some extent how strong and dextrous the figures are, but often more important is how many foes face how many (and how many per turn due to tactics, terrain, etc). Orcs, humans, dwarves, elves etc don't have generic NPC versions whose deadliness you can assume by race - each one is an individual like you, and might be as good or better than you are at things.

TFT does not have the same kind of power curve that D&D has, and it doesn't have the cushion of lots of hitpoints or magic healing ... instead you manage survival by being clever, prudent, tactical, and hopefully bringing along some comrades you don't mind dying. TFT parties are often all fighters, and many TFT adventures are mainly about tactical situations against other humans, mostly fighters, and maybe some beasts and traps and an occasional wizard or two.

By contrast, D&D adventures tend to have things that would be more challenging for a party to deal with in TFT, like groups of 30 orcs, or monsters which can't be killed with ordinary weapons, or that require some magic that is rare or nonexistent in TFT. They also tend to have more magic loot, which can overshadow the abilities TFT characters usually have, but might be a way for them to survive a D&D-coverted-to-TFT adventure.

But one of the main differences making D&D module conversion tricky is that TFT characters tend to suffer serious lasting wounds and/or die when they get hit, while D&D modules tend to be designed with the assumption adventurers can be hit many times and not die, and/or heal all their damage quickly.
 
This is a big reason why I advocate playing some standalone Melee and Wizard before getting a campaign started. Especially for anyone used to more forgiving systems. The Fantasy Trip combats can be absolutely brutal. If the players unferstand this before starting a campaign, there is a much higher likelihood of survival.
 
The combat (and combat magic) system in TFT is built around the idea of diverse but generally balanced conflicts between individuals and small groups. This focus on roughly balanced fights obviously makes the game unsuited to dungeon crawls where the player characters worm their way through dozens of fights with gangs of quasi-equal foes. You will obviously die. So, what's the solution?

- Dungeons with the physical scale and structure you are used to from D+D, but a different mix of things to explore and contend with. More traps, more interesting but low-threat foes (swarms of spiders, slimes, etc.), more encounters that can be responded to in ways other than murder. Think Indiana Jones movies rather than Doom video games.

- Small dungeons (this is the standard solution in many high risk games, like Runequest)

- Adventures that aren't dungeons

- Games that aren't campaigns. I.e., if you are competing with your fellow players to survive the night or emerge with the most treasure or XP, without the expectation that the PC's have to be who you play tomorrow night. This is actually a great way to play TFT: don't just deal with high risk, wallow in it. And if you get killed, draw another (or spend 1 minute to write one up).
 
So far I've done a few one on one melee games. Today eight people gathered in my apartment and we played TFT. Four games in total: first two simple melee one on ones for the people who had never played (or who last played fifteen years ago). Then a four on four melee game. The fight started normally.

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Then my character with an adjusted DX of 7 unloaded the heavy crossbow at the opposing teams plate armored heavy. Since a heavy crossbow needs three rounds to reload, I expected this to do nothing, I just picked it because I could carry an extra weapon. Well, I rolled a four, for double damage, rolled a 14, doubled to 28, which went straight through the plate armor and dropped him on the spot. Without their tank, the other team was severely outmatched, and had to resort to wrestling to try to kill our group. In the end the battlefield looked like this and they surrendered.

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Then we added Wizard and played a four on four with two wizards and two warriors per team.

The other side used illusionary bears a lot, but made a tactical mistake in positioning allowing our quickened warrior to run up and kill their illusionist, thus removing the bears. Now we were better off, as both teams were down a wizard.

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But our two warriors fell fast after this and pretty soon it was only our dwarf wizard and his illusionary bear versus the two lightly armored skirmishers and a wizard on the enemy side. Still, he made a good showing of it and blasted the other wizard down. But eventually they managed to disbelieve his bear illusion and he had to skedaddle.

Trinket the fake bear, MVP of the match.

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Everyone seemed to have a good time, and people are already talking about playing the full rpg version. Success! It was also a very effective way of teaching how combat and the magic system works. Everyone enjoyed playing with all the stuff like the counters, dry erase character cards, battle mats etc. We've also begun a small miniatures collection. Need to get a few armed with bows now.
 
Sounds like a great night of play! Y'all are doing this thing right: TFT is at its most fun when you sort of slide freely back and forth between table top board game mode and roleplaying mode, depending on mood and available time.
 
Sounds like a great night of play! Y'all are doing this thing right: TFT is at its most fun when you sort of slide freely back and forth between table top board game mode and roleplaying mode, depending on mood and available time.

I agree with this. This past Thursday we slid back to board game mode because we didn't have a full group.
 
The cool thing is you can just sort of bop back and forth among these different modes of play, using the same rules, and it all remains fun. It is quite different from D+D in this respect. Imagine rolling up starting PC's for D+D and then having them slug it out in an arena. You'd spend half an hour writing up your character, and there would be nothing to 'do' during the fight other than roll attacks and damage until someone's HP hit zero (yawn).
 
Yeah. I think I might just do that, plan "TFT night" and if everyone can show we play a campaign. If not, we do skirmishes or play Death Test or something.
 
If you get three or more players together, a really fun thing to do is a 'rumble', a'la Hunger Games, where many enter but only one leaves alive. Also, team fights where the teams are bizarre and goofy can be really fun (e.g., a fighter, a wizard, a gargoyle and a slime vs. two fighters, a swarm of rats and a wolf. Or whatever...). Or, a contest where there is some goal other than murder, like moving an object across the arena. Also, always use maximum terrain for maximum fun!
 
If you get three or more players together, a really fun thing to do is a 'rumble', a'la Hunger Games, where many enter but only one leaves alive. Also, team fights where the teams are bizarre and goofy can be really fun (e.g., a fighter, a wizard, a gargoyle and a slime vs. two fighters, a swarm of rats and a wolf. Or whatever...). Or, a contest where there is some goal other than murder, like moving an object across the arena. Also, always use maximum terrain for maximum fun!

We used the playmats that came with the I Want it All boc, as can be seen in the photos. The first two training matches used no terrain, then we used the pits on the Melee map as pillars and then we had both megahex pillars and megahex pits on the Wizard map. Because of the figures we had we ended up with some nonhumans at least, some lizardmen and dwarves, but nothing more outre than that. I'm thinking a team vs a Dragon or giant will probably be good for the next match.

And yeah, if just general fights, I'm definitely thinking more objectives, different terrain (at least using the megahex tiles, but I'm also going to be ordering a dry-erase battlemat so I can draw up some outdoor terrain on it. The rumble variant sounds fun. Probably will lead to at least two fighters standing off with pole weapons, and one wizard just sending in illusions hoping no one has the time to disbelieve them.
 
Moved up to trying Death Test this weekend.

I came very close to completing it with my party of 32 point characters (or at least a couple of them). I need to give it another whirl.

I don't have the fancy mats. I had been playing with the basic paper maps and counters. It had actually been giving me a pleasant nostalgic buzz.

Regardless, I've started using Heroscape tiles and minis for the game. I had enough 7-hex tiles to construct a Wizard map, and that works 1 to 1 with megahexes.

At this point, I'm also hoping that the game can expand to cover other things than just dungeon delving. I'd like to see sci-fi sort of expansion. If there was an expansion that covered something like X-Com it would have the potential to be a perfect fit.
 
Moved up to trying Death Test this weekend.

I came very close to completing it with my party of 32 point characters (or at least a couple of them). I need to give it another whirl.

I don't have the fancy mats. I had been playing with the basic paper maps and counters. It had actually been giving me a pleasant nostalgic buzz.

Regardless, I've started using Heroscape tiles and minis for the game. I had enough 7-hex tiles to construct a Wizard map, and that works 1 to 1 with megahexes.

At this point, I'm also hoping that the game can expand to cover other things than just dungeon delving. I'd like to see sci-fi sort of expansion. If there was an expansion that covered something like X-Com it would have the potential to be a perfect fit.

I’ve tried Death Test twice with the new stuff. Both times my group died within three rooms. I know I’ve actually gotten through it before though, so got to keep plugging.

Because the game is so light, expanding it into other genres should be pretty easy. Creatures just run off the three stats and whatever attacks, armor and special abilities you want to give them. You will probably need some extra talents (various types of guns for instance), and some new weapons and armor, but that’s probably it.
 
DT 1 and (especially) 2 are pretty serious hurdles to get over. You'll occasionally hear of someone making it through with green 32 point characters, but not often.
 
DT 1 and (especially) 2 are pretty serious hurdles to get over. You'll occasionally hear of someone making it through with green 32 point characters, but not often.

I'm pretty sure I did in my youth, but with In The Labyrinth characters, so full use of talents, which helps a lot.
 
Oh yes, an ITL character has a huge advantage over foes who lack talents. Your missile weapon specialists effectively start as 35 point characters from the get go (because of missile weapon talent), your lightly armored characters often have MA 12, and so on and so forth.
 
Oh yes, an ITL character has a huge advantage over foes who lack talents. Your missile weapon specialists effectively start as 35 point characters from the get go (because of missile weapon talent), your lightly armored characters often have MA 12, and so on and so forth.
I'm almost certain I first made it through with only one character surviving, a Crossbow-wielding guy in chainmail (offset with missile weapons talent). I think he had Toughness too (or was it called Warrior back then? I'm pretty sure the two different levels of toughness were two different talents back then, Warrior and Veteran I think).
 
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So would it be reasonable to say TFT is the proto D&D4e? I always felt 4E was a tactical minis game with a dash of RPG.
 
Hmm, I don't know, having only played D&D 4e once. It seems to me though that The Fantasy Trip represents a "road not taken" in early roleplaying design. Dungeons and Dragons grew out of miniature wargaming. The Fantasy Trip was basically a reaction to that which grew out of hex and counter wargaming. After TFT though not many, if any, rpgs went that way. Maybe those two paths converged again in 4e though.
 
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D+D 4E didn't feel very much like TFT to me. For starters, TFT is founded on a tactical board game whereas 4E was a trying to retrofit itself into that mode, starting from somewhere that made the change awkward. Second, central design features of TFT are the structural simplicity of characters (i.e., they have a modest number of traits or qualities), relative balance between diverse combatants, and speed of play. Whatever its intent might have been, 4E didn't find its way to any of these things. So, while I understand the urge to compare these, I don't think it gives gives the D+D player a very accurate feel for TFT.

A better comparison would be with skirmish miniatures games, like Mordheim. Those are much more in the spirit of TFT (though the latter is more focused on the individual and less well suited to big groups - which reminds me that TFT badly needs a skirmish level 'module' for resolving situations with a dozen or more combatants on a side...)
 
D&D 4e combat felt more like the Mage Knight Miniatures game to me.
 
There are things about 4E that appealed to me in a 'white room', game design philosophy sort of way; my only knock against it is that it was really slow, in part because of the many 'moving parts' in the character powerzzz, so I found it boring to play. TFT is basically the opposite of this experience: it looks like nothing very special on the page, but really opens up into something exciting at the table.
 
There are things about 4E that appealed to me in a 'white room', game design philosophy sort of way; my only knock against it is that it was really slow, in part because of the many 'moving parts' in the character powerzzz, so I found it boring to play. TFT is basically the opposite of this experience: it looks like nothing very special on the page, but really opens up into something exciting at the table.


This is what I have found. Combat movies really fast in the Fantasy Trip. It has that old school feel of being able to judge a game by how many rooms a party cleared and combat has depth without getting bogged down in all the powerez 4E had.

I'd avoid mentioning 4E and TFT because if I would have heard 4E anywhere near the name I wouldn't have backed TFT.
 
Are the countersheets and mapsheets in the combined Melee & Wizard Pocketbox the same as the separate Melee and Wizard boxes which come in the Legacy Edition?

I keep on reading the Pocketbox has smaller maps and counters.
 
Are the countersheets and mapsheets in the combined Melee & Wizard Pocketbox the same as the separate Melee and Wizard boxes which come in the Legacy Edition?

I keep on reading the Pocketbox has smaller maps and counters.
Yes the pocket box counters and maps are similar in size to the original games. The counters are a much nicer punchboard though.

Also, the melee and wizard boxes in the legacy box are available individually at retail. Still relatively small games. If I get a chance, I'll post a comparison pic.
 
The pocket box has 1" hex maps and the individual Melee and Wizard box are 1.5" which is now the default size for Legacy edition of the game.
 
1" hex size is the size of the originals, and the GURPS hex maps. Which is a drag for all of us with lots of original maps and counters, and who prefer the smaller scale (you get a LOT more map action per table space used).
 
On the other hand my eyes aren't what they used to be so larger counters and hexes have their advantages for readability from my end of the table, along with regular-sized white dice with black pips.
 
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Forgive my Batman Game. I didn't clean it up.

Anyways, that's a normal sized playing card in between them. With a character Chit from each set in the lower right corner.

The bigger version isn't much bigger, and the larger pieces and hexes make it a lot easier to play for me.
 
View attachment 9088

Forgive my Batman Game. I didn't clean it up.

Anyways, that's a normal sized playing card in between them. With a character Chit from each set in the lower right corner.

The bigger version isn't much bigger, and the larger pieces and hexes make it a lot easier to play for me.
How do you like Batman?
 
How do you like Batman?
I think it's really excellent, it's much more of a skirmish war game than it is a board game. Most of the scenarios have played I've come down to the wire.
 
View attachment 9088

Forgive my Batman Game. I didn't clean it up.

Anyways, that's a normal sized playing card in between them. With a character Chit from each set in the lower right corner.

The bigger version isn't much bigger, and the larger pieces and hexes make it a lot easier to play for me.
I understand that some people like the bigger maps, but the looks a lot bigger to me. 150% wider means 225% more area used per hex, or 44% as much area for the same amount of table space.
 
Yeah there's good and bad with the new larger standard hex size. I've got a pretty large table, so for me 1,5 inch hexes are fine. This means I can use bigger counters or miniatures, get more details etc. But if you've got a smaller playing area, or if you're planning to use some very large areas for fighting, the 1 inch hexes are probably a better size.

I think it is pretty clear that the Legacy edition is aimed pretty squarely at older gamers with a lot of space, a lot of disposable income and possibly degraded eyesight. Maybe putting out some more expansions for the Pocket box edition could be an idea eventually, to try to get people who don't have the room for the bigger maps to buy some more stuff.
 
View attachment 9088

Forgive my Batman Game. I didn't clean it up.

Anyways, that's a normal sized playing card in between them. With a character Chit from each set in the lower right corner.

The bigger version isn't much bigger, and the larger pieces and hexes make it a lot easier to play for me.

Thanks for the image. That clarifies it for me. I'm kind of shocked they printed two different sized countersheets and mapsheets for what's effectively the same products just divvied up differently. From the pic it looks like the map is even folded the same size.

I had been thinking about picking up the Melee and Wizard pocketbox because the little Melee and Wizard rulebooks are easier to quick reference than the In the Labyrinth book, and I figured it wouldn't be bad to have a spare. Plus, more counters would be good.

I guess the plus is that the counters in the pocketbox are the right size for my battlemat options (which have 1" hexes).

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Edit:

Hey, wild tangential question...

For those who went in on the recent Pocketbox game Kickstarter, are the upcoming new pocketbox releases supposed to have actual counters or be like the original releases with the cutout counters on thick paper? Also, is the pocketbox Car Wars supposed to come with a turning key?
 
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I guess the plus is that the counters in the pocketbox are the right size for my battlemat options (which have 1" hexes).

------
Edit:

Hey, wild tangential question...

For those who went in on the recent Pocketbox game Kickstarter, are the upcoming new pocketbox releases supposed to have actual counters or be like the original releases with the cutout counters on thick paper? Also, is the pocketbox Car Wars supposed to come with a turning key?

Just to note: all of the support going forward for TFT is using the 1.5 hexes. The adventures they are releasing, the Decks of Destiny etc. Also, the rulebooks in the TFT pocketbox are the basic Melee and Wizard games only. So skills as well as the Advanced Melee and Advanced Wizard rules will still be in In the Labyrinth.


Many of the pocketbox games, including Car Wars, have thick, die cut versions of the original counters. If the Car Wars OG pocketbox had a turning key, then there will be a die cut turning key in the new pocketbox.
 
I wish I had understood things better when I was doing the kick starter. I would have either skipped any physical rewards or gone with the pocket box add on. As it is, my Melee and Wizard boxed games may not see much use. The 1.5" hexes mean all the 1" hex stuff I currently have is useless with the provided counters.

TFT is not something I'm likely to really play much. Part of my interest in backing was that I was joining an online game as a player (where physical stuff isn't of much use - ok, we use physical dice instead of dice rollers so I've taken to using my Melee dice for the game instead of other d6 I have, but that's it). Other than that, the PDFs are really all I need.

Now had I got the pocket boxes, the counters might have been something I used with my existing hex maps should I even in the future run an in person game.
 
What did you end up backing at? You can sell the bits for a good price online.
 
What did you end up backing at? You can sell the bits for a good price online.
I just got the Melee and Wizard games, plus all the PDFs. I'll keep the games, they don't take up that much space and may provide for some fun at some point down the road.
 
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