So not into D&D...sell me on something else!?

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Neon said:
I can't even wrap my brain around preferring to roll high or roll under. Is this a thing?

Don't like to roll under on 85% skill? Then roll high on 15%! Lol
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It is very much a thing, I don't get it either. Although I am far from a math wiz, I have learned there are apparently a lot of people who have difficulty with numbers well beyond mine. Roll low for success roll high for damage is a problem for some. There has been quite a bit of discusion on it over the years on various gaming sites. It seems to also be related to CoCs converting stats to the percentile success roll.

Numbers seem to not be the friend of a number of gamers.
 
Toadmaster said:
Numbers seem to not be the friend of a number of gamers.
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yes-cheesy-grin.gif
 
This thread made me realize how much I'm not into fantasy: there's probably only 6 or 7 fantasy games in my collection and the only ones that could match OP's criteria (classless, levelless, roll high, not D&D) are Shattered and Gran Meccanismo (and this only if you squint a bit and consider "roll a lot of successes on a d6 dicepool" an acceptable substitute of "roll high" and "a no magic clockworkpunk Renaissance" as "fantasy")
 
OP is tired of D&D and D&D assumptions. OP is looking for a fantasy game that meets the following criteria:
- Not D&D
- No Classes
- No Levels
- Roll High
GhostNinja said:
Well if you are looking to do fantasy that is pretty easy to run, I suggest Old School essentials. Its the cleaned up version of the D&D Basic/Expert Rules.

I am running it and have a great time and so are my players.
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There it is. The suggestion that blatantly fails every single criteria laid out by the OP.

- Not D&D: OSE is D&D
- No Classes: OSE has Classes
- No Levels: OSE has Levels
- Roll High: Combat? Yes. Thief Skills? Percentile or d6 chance and No.

The exact opposite of what was asked for.
rumble said:
Everyone is going to be recommending their favorite system and trying to shoehorn it into what you're asking for, even if it doesn't apply. It's gamer nature.
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Sometimes you're right. :grin:
 
Silverlion said:
I admit I like Earthdawn but its big on classes and levels. Isn't Warlock! Roll Under? As are all Advanced Fighting Fantasy derivatives?
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You can just switch the math to make it roll over. I think even AFF2 has a mod in the rulebook to do that.
 
Silverlion said:
Isn't Warlock! Roll Under?
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Pretty sure Warlock! is roll over. Roll over 20, specifically, for standard checks. Based on d20 plus highest of a d6 pool. I haven't played it.

I was also going to recommend Trophy, but considered it too simplistic for your needs.
 
Toadmaster said:
It is very much a thing, I don't get it either.
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I don't have a strong preference either way, but there is a definite "feel" to a game based on its mechanics. There may be some influence based on an affinity for math, but there doesn't have to be.

Roll under (low) games are naturally bounded. You can only do so well.
There are multiple roll over (high) game mechanics, from bound-to-max-value (highest in a pool, no mods) to high-but-not-too-high (blackjack) to high-as-the-character-can-manage (skill pluses) to high-as-lady-luck-allows (exploding dice).

Every one of those mechanics feels different in play. Well, to me, at least.
 
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I don't know, Silverlion Silverlion - you might have painted yourself in a little bit of a corner. Of course, I am not saying that no such games exist. But it definitely limits the scope.

Personally, if I was looking for a game using the exact same parameters, I would probably go with Savage Worlds. Yes, yes...before you say, "but Lord Dynel, there are Ranks in Savage Worlds, and it fails!" I would argue that Ranks in SW are not really "levels" in a traditional sense, or they feel less like traditional levels are more like watermarks for when certain edges or spells become available. But, that's my opnion. :smile:
 
rumble said:
I don't have a strong preference either way, but there is a definite "feel" to a game based on its mechanics. There may be some influence based on an affinity for math.but there doesn't have to be.

Roll under (low) games are naturally bounded. You can only do so well.
There are multiple roll over (high) game mechanics, from bound-to-max-value (highest in a pool, no mods) to high-but-not-too-high (blackjack) to high-as-the-character-can-manage (skill pluses) to high-as-lady-luck-allows (exploding dice).

Every one of those mechanics feels different in play. Well, to me, at least.
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Oh, I get that part and agree choices in mechanic can have a big impact on flavor.

It is the roll under to hit, roll high for damage is unintuitive, therefore difficult for "many" people to understand.

I never would have believed this was a real issue before teh internets explained it to me. Before the internet, I never even gave it a second thought that there could even be an issue, seems perfectly normal to me. Also helps me understand why games like HERO get singled out for too much math. I can do most HERO math in my head, and what I can't is easily done on paper. For somebody who has a hard time with you roll under your target number, and then want to roll as high as possible with the damage dice, then yeah HERO math is probably pretty hard.

Numbers are a language and not everybody speaks it to the same degree.
 
Triumvir said:
Talislanta, or Atlantis - using the "Omni system" (d20 plus stat plus skill plus mods, check your result on a success table)

DriveThruRPG

preview.drivethrurpg.com preview.drivethrurpg.com

?
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I would of initially suggested Talislanta, but it has Classes (well, Archetypes, so I thought that ruled it out).
Talislanta is a great setting and a really good system.

Talislanta Epic Edition (currently being crowd-funded)
Talislanta (free previous editions)

I never knew about this indie version that you have posted, hmmm it could be worth checking Atlantis/Omni System out
 
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rumble said:
Pretty sure Warlock! is roll over. Roll over 20, specifically, for standard checks. Based on d20 plus highest of a d6 pool. I haven't played it.

I was also going to recommend Trophy, but considered it too simplistic for your needs.
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That sounds a lot like Shadow of the Demon Lord. Warlock is based on AFF, though I am not sure if they modified that base much.

As to Trophy, I have tried so many times to get my head around what the game is all about prior to buying it, but I find all the material so weirdly dense and obscure. I would love to see a clear explanation of the game and what it does.
 
I AM into D&D, but I'll try to sell you on something else anyway, because I contain multitudes, etc.

The Fantasy Trip is the best and most unique table top fantasy roleplaying game you probably haven't played, for a variety of reasons:

- Perhaps most importantly, it is highly, highly 'tactile' — elaborate game maps, markers for characters, monsters and objects, and various sorts of useful cards. Once you get a critical mass of these components is a little like having your own cheap-ass version of a large Dwarven Forge set + miniatures collection: you can mix and match to create all sorts of engaging spaces. One of the more interesting things this enables happens when you start dungeon delving: The map 'tiles' can be laid down and picked up continuously and markers marched around turn by turn, so that characters truly feel like they are exploring a physical space in a lot of granular detail. Done right, this feels sort of like living out the opening sequence of Indiana Jones.

- The combat system uses hex-and-chit rules and materials, providing a highly gamable tactical experience, with plenty of player skill and chess like decision making.

- The magic system has some depth to it, but its core is built around a hex-and-chit magical dueling game, so magic also feels highly tactical. When two magicians face off, there are a lot of decisions to be made and the game play is exciting - much more so than when a couple of D&D wizards get madd at each other.

- Character build, but easy cheesy. TFT is to GURPS as B/X is to 1EAD&D. A TFT character gets designed and shaped at the player's discretion, but the end result can fit on a post it note and comes together in 2-3 minutes.

- Everyone and everything poses some sort of plausible threat to everyone and everything else, so there are few pointless fights/conflicts

Get it. Play it. Love it.
 
Silverlion said:
I did start noodly with a 'classless' and 'level-less' D&D idea (same stats, saves similar to 3E, but four), you have one class "Adventurer" sort of as it's really an excuse to build what you want with XP purchases. But I'm tired (lazy but because of life being a pain.)
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Cairn and Knave both do classless -- just "adventure" and primarily you gear determines what you are -- picked up spell book, I guess you are a wizard.

My Dungeons Unleashed! beta is really more "Heroic" Fantasy and is really level-less (you just improve your talents). It has some fun mass combat mechanics that I used a fair bit in our recent campaign. There are three classes though -- they are just super open ended -- your "faithful" could fit a lot under it's banner.

I think all of these probably have to much D&Disms in them for the OP.

SavAce said:
Here is my questionable list of RPGs that might qualify:

-snip-
Sword Noir
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OH, hey!
A) yes, I agree that fits the criteria.
b) this may be the first time I've seen someone recommend it online. (I've talked with folks who have played it in person.)
c) The 1st edition print version is on sale for just $15 CAD and includes both the 1st and 2e PDFs. Here: https://composedreamgames.com/marketplace/sword-noir

It's a roll 2d10 + xyz vs TN type system inspired by PDQ, Fate, Shadow of Yesterday, Savage Worlds and Lady Blackbird.
There's a city setting , adventure, and pregens in the book.
 
SoManyRats said:
Blood, Sweat & Steel is Fudge so it's a certain style of 'roll high,' but otherwise lines up - no classes, no levels (warriors and sorcerers are distinguished by traits/abilities, and advancement is by increasing skills/attributes).
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For a shining moment I thought there existed an RPG called Blood, Sweat, Steel, and Fudge. It was a glorious moment.
 
Neon said:
I can't even wrap my brain around preferring to roll high or roll under. Is this a thing?

Don't like to roll under on 85% skill? Then roll high on 15%! Lol
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Rolling skill # or less on d% is the same mathematically as rolling d% and adding your skill number to hit or exceed a target of 101, the latter just requires an extra math step (adding two numbers). But when players say they don’t like rolling low that’s what I offer them as the alternative.
 
David Johansen said:
Roll high fantasy says Rolemaster except there are classes. They affect the cost of skills so your wizard can still learn to use a sword. Palladium fantasy has the same problem of having classes. Still a very robust combat system and some neat magic systems in first edition. Avoid second edition unless you think the rules from Rifts are a good idea. Tunnels and Trolls is certainly roll high. A bit weird maybe and there are classes though they're Fighter, Wizard, and Rogue and mainly determine how the character interacts with magic, that being not at all, a little bit, and to the exclusion of all else. I've got a couple fantasy games of my own but they have classes and levels and are roll low.
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The Rolemaster classes though, basically just modify the cost of skills, so a Fighter will get more bang for the XP if they put it into fighting, while a Mage would be better off with lores and spells, but a Fighter can learn magic and a Mage can learn swordplay. Nothing is gated by the classes, just narrowed or opened.
 
Lord Dynel said:
I don't know, Silverlion Silverlion - you might have painted yourself in a little bit of a corner. Of course, I am not saying that no such games exist. But it definitely limits the scope.

Personally, if I was looking for a game using the exact same parameters, I would probably go with Savage Worlds. Yes, yes...before you say, "but Lord Dynel, there are Ranks in Savage Worlds, and it fails!" I would argue that Ranks in SW are not really "levels" in a traditional sense, or they feel less like traditional levels are more like watermarks for when certain edges or spells become available. But, that's my opnion. :smile:
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I’d agree, ranks are not Levels, they’re more like Tiers of competency.
 
Jkitz said:
Cairn and Knave both do classless -- just "adventure" and primarily you gear determines what you are -- picked up spell book, I guess you are a wizard.
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Cairn is the equivalent of a napkin with the letters 'RPG' written on it in crayon. There's no 'there' there.

I'd also mention Rolemaster. It does have classes, but they're not nearly as isolating/limiting as D&D classes.
 
rumble said:
Pretty sure Warlock! is roll over. Roll over 20, specifically, for standard checks. Based on d20 plus highest of a d6 pool. I haven't played it.

I was also going to recommend Trophy, but considered it too simplistic for your needs.
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I confirm Warlock! is roll over and imho a really good fit if you're into a Warhammer-like style and atmosphere. Lots of material available for it.
 
Skywalker said:
As to Trophy, I have tried so many times to get my head around what the game is all about prior to buying it, but I find all the material so weirdly dense and obscure. I would love to see a clear explanation of the game and what it does.
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I've posted a few thoughts on this before. I like to think I get better at it each time.

At its core, Trophy is a story-based RPG that enables theme-aligned, goal-focused adventures.
The stories have purpose and focus; the players know exactly what the goals are at any particular time.
The stories have coherence; even gonzo adventures are tightly connected scenes and not random rambling.

Characters are built off ideas, not numbers. A few simple background elements and professions (max 6, initially). Maximum of 3 pieces of equipment plus 3 more on-the-fly selections. Arms, armor, and rituals (spells) can be selected, but they can make post-adventuring survival difficult (upkeep is required). And yet, with all this simplicity, I'm more free to explore possibilities with my character than in a-skill-for-everything-games. Kinda like Over the Edge or Risus. No rigid "moves" or "playbooks".

Post-adventure / downtime for Trophy Gold is meaningful, and can be just as complex as an adventure, depending on player investment. Trophy Dark has a postscript, but no downtime because, well, the point is not to survive.

It uses the basic Forged in the Dark mechanic (d6: 1 = terrible, 2-3 bad, 4-5 success with issues, 6 = clear success).
A "hunt" mechanic advances the characters if the players ever get stuck... but you're trading long-term survival (affording upkeep) for short-term success (overcoming challenges).
The game is VERY tense because you have, at most, 5 Ruin (hit points). Ever. And over time, that maximum can only go down.
 
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Toadmaster said:
It is very much a thing, I don't get it either. Although I am far from a math wiz, I have learned there are apparently a lot of people who have difficulty with numbers well beyond mine. Roll low for success roll high for damage is a problem for some. There has been quite a bit of discusion on it over the years on various gaming sites. It seems to also be related to CoCs converting stats to the percentile success roll.

Numbers seem to not be the friend of a number of gamers.
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Honestly? I don't care, I mean for me roll high, roll low both work, but one of my FTF game groups (the one meeting currently) is stuck on it.
For some darn reason.
I like percentile (especially for Sci-fi)
 
Well, Rolemaster and its decendants are the roll high percentile games. There's Against the Dark Master, HARP, and even a sf one I can't remember the name of.
 
In play Against The Darkmaster doesn't feel very class-based. The classes are there, but just to determine skill costs to encourage niche protection. You could make everyone a Dabbler vocation and get everyone on board with a slightly lower level of competence (the tradeoff for no high-cost categories of skill is of course no real low-cost categories) and have no 'classes' for PCs.

You'd still have levels, but those only determine new skill points. Spending enough Drive points (gained from acting according to a character's core motivations, spent as metacurrency) can be used to increase stats, increase Body Points (HP), or pump up a special item, and these are unconnected to levelling. But, yes, the character sheets do specifically list vocation and level.

And, it's roll-high with exploding % dice, so high can get really high.

Against The Darkmaster is all in one book and slightly lighter than full Rolemaster, if that might make a difference. It was an easier sell for my group, and I've been really enjoying it.
 
Torg? I know nothing of the current version, but the original was classless, level-less, roll-high, and did a range of genres decently as long as you were okay with 'pulpy'.
 
Sharrow said:
Torg? I know nothing of the current version, but the original was classless, level-less, roll-high, and did a range of genres decently as long as you were okay with 'pulpy'.
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I just picked up the new edition on PDF, but not for a fantasy game (since well its about crossing from Cosm to Cosm to save the world!)
 
Silverlion said:
Spacemaster? :grin:
Albeit those are technically class-based.
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No, there's a clone like Against the Dark Master that's science fiction. There's also HARP sf, ICE CEO Nicholas Caldwell's pet project. The thing about Rolemaster is that it tries to have things both ways so it's a class and level points system but classes aren't absolute limitations just aptitudes.

It's more the roll over stipulation than the class thing that's making it difficult. GURPS, HERO, BRP, 2d20 all roll under.

It occurs to me that Starwars d6 is roll over. FGG Star Wars uses a dice pool system.
 
Silverlion said:
I just picked up the new edition on PDF, but not for a fantasy game (since well its about crossing from Cosm to Cosm to save the world!)
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The original's Aylse was a decent high fantasy setting even if you just used it for that and ignored the overall setting, and had an interesting magic system.
 
Silverlion Silverlion I’m not sure how different you want to get from D&D in tone, but I’ll make a suggestion that’s a bit different, and not just D&D by another name. It does have classes, but none are anything quite like what we think of as classes.

Heart: The City Beneath

The quick-start at this link is PWYW, and includes the basics and some pregenerated characters, and a starting scenario. The game is very similar to classic D&D in that it is about people who delve into a dungeon. The main difference is that the dungeon in question is a living rift in reality, and it tries to give the delvers what they want, but in ways that are totally alien.

It’s a great game, an evocative setting that can be tailored with ease. The characters are all evocative and unique. And the core idea of delving is central to the game.

If you’re looking for something that feels similar yet different, but which plays differently from D&D (and most other games for that matter), you can’t really go wrong with Heart.
 
Do Traveller careers count as classes? Classic and Megatraveller and Mongoose Traveller are roll over and science fiction. Traveller The New Era, Traveller 4, and Traveller 5 are roll under.

It's roll under but Robin Law's Hero Wars is about as far from D&D as fantasy can get. Characters are created by picking key words and assigning ratings to them.
 
Mankcam said:
I never knew about this indie version that you have posted, hmmm it could be worth checking Atlantis/Omni System out
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There is a generic Omni System book. I don't think it's class-based, but I don't have it to hand to check.

Despite having a hard drive full of systems, it's surprisingly hard to think of suggestions that fit the criteria.

Has anyone mentioned the AGE system yet? Seemed to be flavour of the month a while ago. I read the book, never played it. ISTR the reviewers knocked it for HP bloat.

I don't own it, but I believe R Talsorian's Witcher RPG uses the Cyberpunk (Interlock) system, roll-over d10. Not sure if it uses the profession special skills like in CP. These are a very soft form of class system anyway and probably easily stripped out.
 
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Triumvir said:
There is a generic Omni System book. I don't think it's class-based, but I don't have it to hand to check.

Despite having a hard drive full of systems, it's surprisingly hard to think of suggestions that fit the criteria.

Has anyone mentioned the AGE system yet? Seemed to be flavour of the month a while ago. I read the book, never played it. ISTR the reviewers knocked it for HP bloat.

I don't own it, but I believe R Talsorian's Witcher RPG uses the Cyberpunk (Interlock) system, roll-over d10. Not sure if it uses the profession special skills like in CP. These are a very soft form of class system anyway and probably easily stripped out.
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A generic Omni system would be good. AGE has classes for Fantasy (Modern Age does not!? Which I'd have preferreed 2E FA to follow, le sigh.)

Right now I'm leaning to Unisystem, MiniD6, and/or writing my own, but again, tired :grin:
 
Silverlion said:
Right now, I'm so burned out on D&D, D&D assumptions, and anything D&D like, except Baldur's Gate 3, but as I play it and realize this is a heavily house-ruled, stacked against the PC's mess (unlike BG1 and 2 IMHO, yes different developers blah blah) that I want to see a fantasy game that is: roll high, Class-Less, Level-less (No 'rank'/'circle' or other stand in for class level that means 'overall character power in everything')


Alas, this puts Mythras/BRP/Runequest right out due to the whole roll under percentile thing.
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Are you familiar with ZeFRs?
 
Silverlion said:
Yes. For strange reasons*, both it (and an MSH hack, are out.)



*Terrible player's opinion. He has a lame aversion to chart resolution (even if it makes things easier, I know, I know. Strange right?
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Your players sound very picky, why don't you get them to pick a system, or several to give you a choice on what you'd rather run?

It's funny, the dynamic of my gaming group is so different. We take turns pitching a campaign or one shot concept, but the system used is totally in the GM's hands, and outside of a few clearly stated preferences on each of our parts, there is no; I'd guess I'd call it "player concern"; over the system used. Often we have no idea what system we're using until we gather for the game session and make characters if necessary.

However, generally, I'm the one running a long campaign and my gaming friends tend towards periodic one-shots (or 2-3 shots), so that may contribute to it to some degree - less system investment necessary. But it never even came up when I initially pitched the current long-running Phaserip campaign, over ten years ago, and my players have been mercilessly experimented on while playtesting Phaserip subsystems, which they have no problem with. But I also wonder if it's because we mostly share a style of play that de-emphasizes the system over improvisational role-play and common sense rulings (not 100% GM Fiat, but closer to Everway than most discussions of game groups that I've encountered online).
 
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