Systems for a Historical Chinese themed game?

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So I've got some friends who want me to run a game on Roll20 set in the Three Kingdoms period in China. I have Qin: The Warring States, but I've heard some things about it that I'm not entirely keen on.

So I'm looking for some alternatives.

Thanks in advance.
 
I think it is pretty hard to beat GURPS with the 3E China source book plus 'Places of Mystery' and 'Martial Arts', perhaps plus the 3E Japan source book if you want to have the campaign interact with Japan or (close enough...) Korea.
 
Big issue with that is most of these folks don't like GURPS. Probably 80% of the group.
 
You might check out this thread I did on the Outlaws of the Water Margin RPG last week:

 
Awesome thanks. I have Outlaws of the Water Margin, but I've never played it before. Thanks for the write up.
 
There's also Wushu, if you want a really loose system that's all about characters being awesome in combat. It doesn't come with any background though, so you're left to wing all the cultural stuff as GM.
 
Cultural stuff itself wouldn't be a problem (I've studied the Sanguozhi and other historical records of the period). More just want a thematic system that is easy to play. Seems Outlaws of the Water Margin might be just that.
 
Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate isn't set in a historical China, but can easily be used for a game set in one. There's also the Ultimate Iron Age Guide: Three Kingdoms China for Savage Worlds (Explorer Edition, not the current one). Not sure how good it is, as I'm not really a Savage Worlds person

Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate seems like it would be tricky to modify it for a game set in a period of war, considering its based upon martial art schools and the conflicts between them. Very Jin Yong feeling, which is cool but not something my players really want.

Additionally, another problem I've found with Qin is that trying to use the Yin and Yang dice mechanic on Roll20 without being a pro user is impossible. So I'm completely axing it from my internal debate now.
 
what games does your group play? what's their system preference?
 
The Water Margin is a good game, go for it!
Personally, I would have considered the following options:
1) GURPS. Doesn't work for your group, but I'd have considered it.
2) Adapting Maelstrom: Domesday for China. (It's set for times soon after a conquest) or Maelstrom: Rome (Roman society, with its patrons and clients, is close enough). I'd probably just end up combining them both, using MD for rural characters and MR for city-based ones!
3) Mythras. Also d100, but more generic, thus easier to adapt, and lots of fun. Also, it works with my old copy of MRQ2: Empires, which adds organisational rules if I want them.
4) Making an amalgamation of the rules in Strange Tales of Songling, Servants of Gaius, and Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate...namely: picking SoG as a base, adding rituals, the Parry and Evade skills from SToS (they're basically a second roll that allows you to negate a successful hit) and adding a couple of lower-level Techniques from WHoOG to represent the martial feats of renowned Three Kingdoms fighters. You might have to discover a secret manual after taking a city, but it's doable without schools:grin:!
5) ORE, probably based on Reign Enchiridion (or outright Reign). You have ways to boost your strategists, your spies, and your warriors. And you have rules for leading a Company...make the Company an army, and you're set!
6) Savage Worlds, as stated above.
7) Qin. Obviously doesn't work for you, but I'm adding it for completeness' sake. I could add Weapons of the Gods (with the Great Game supplement) if you want a crunch-fest, too. But then again, I might add one of the fantasy variants of Traveller, too! Anyway, I don't think any of these is a good fit for you, frankly.
8) Outlaws of the Water Margin. From all the suggestions, this one seems like it'd be the best, frankly:grin:!
 
what games does your group play? what's their system preference?

It's a group of new players who I've never run a game with all of them. Let's say, A, B, C, D, and E. A and B have played All for One Regime Diabolique with me, A and C have played Hollow Earth Expedition with me. D and E have never played a game with me or anyone else.

They're all familiar with D&D, and they're all former players of various Play By Post diceless RPGs (We played a lot of different ones over almost 20 years now) set in the Three Kingdoms period.

The Water Margin is a good game, go for it!
Personally, I would have considered the following options:
1) GURPS. Doesn't work for your group, but I'd have considered it.
2) Adapting Maelstrom: Domesday for China. (It's set for times soon after a conquest) or Maelstrom: Rome (Roman society, with its patrons and clients, is close enough). I'd probably just end up combining them both, using MD for rural characters and MR for city-based ones!
3) Mythras. Also d100, but more generic, thus easier to adapt, and lots of fun. Also, it works with my old copy of MRQ2: Empires, which adds organisational rules if I want them.
4) Making an amalgamation of the rules in Strange Tales of Songling, Servants of Gaius, and Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate...namely: picking SoG as a base, adding rituals, the Parry and Evade skills from SToS (they're basically a second roll that allows you to negate a successful hit) and adding a couple of lower-level Techniques from WHoOG to represent the martial feats of renowned Three Kingdoms fighters. You might have to discover a secret manual after taking a city, but it's doable without schools:grin:!
5) ORE, probably based on Reign Enchiridion (or outright Reign). You have ways to boost your strategists, your spies, and your warriors. And you have rules for leading a Company...make the Company an army, and you're set!
6) Savage Worlds, as stated above.
7) Qin. Obviously doesn't work for you, but I'm adding it for completeness' sake. I could add Weapons of the Gods (with the Great Game supplement) if you want a crunch-fest, too. But then again, I might add one of the fantasy variants of Traveller, too! Anyway, I don't think any of these is a good fit for you, frankly.
8) Outlaws of the Water Margin. From all the suggestions, this one seems like it'd be the best, frankly:grin:!

I actually found a way around the issue with Qin. I managed to come up with a macro that can approximate the Yin-Yang dice that it has. Since you can make roll20 subtract the smaller number from the higher, and then even though Qin doesn't use negative numbers, those can represent Yin and positive for Yang focus. I have heard some things about the game that I'm not entirely keen on, but that could just be irrational complaints from bitter people.

So now I'm debating on whether to use Qin or Outlaws of the Water Margin.
 
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It's a group of new players who I've never run a game with all of them. Let's say, A, B, C, D, and E. A and B have played All for One Regime Diabolique with me, A and C have played Hollow Earth Expedition with me. D and E have never played a game with me or anyone else.that

They're all familiar with D&D, and they're all former players of various Play By Post diceless RPGs (We played a lot of different ones over almost 20 years now) set in the Three Kingdoms period.



I actually found a way around the issue with Qin. I managed to come up with a macro that can approximate the Yin-Yang dice that it has. Since you can make roll20 subtract the smaller number from the higher, and then even though Qin doesn't use negative numbers, those can represent Yin and positive for Yang focus. I have heard some things about the game that I'm not entirely keen on, but that could just be irrational complaints from bitter people.

So now I'm debating on whether to use Qin or Outlaws of the Water Margin.
The only possible "problems" with Qin is that combat can be lethal, and that number of opponents matters...a lot (you have a set number of Reactions to defend with in the not-so-unlikely event that someone beats your passive defence). Now, that shouldn't be a problem most of the time! A smart PC would have ways to get away and get extra actions and to get to a battlefield that fits better a fight against a group.

Other than that? Why, go ahead. It's also crunchier than OotWM. But that might be a bonus or not, depending on your group. Qin is a bit heavier than Ubiquity, which you have played, but not by much. And IMO, it's lighter than the new editions of D&D, so there should be no problems.
OotWM is about on par with Ubiquity. Pick whichever appeals more!
 
I own The Celestial Empire and Wind on the Steppes for BRP but I've not looked at them in any detail.
Both are very good and well-researched! I used them for a PbP "pseudohistorical wuxia" set in the North-South Dynasty era...and the only reason I didn't use Wind of the Steppe is that it wasn't published yet:grin:!
 
I actually quite liked the dice mechanism in Weapons of the Gods. A bit counter intuitive at first.

Use a d10 pool to create a percentage by reading the number of matches as the tens and the matched number as the unit.

So if you roll 7,7,8,9 you get 27

Or, if you roll 6,7,8,9, you get 19
 
I actually quite liked the dice mechanism in Weapons of the Gods. A bit counter intuitive at first.

Use a d10 pool to create a percentage by reading the number of matches as the tens and the matched number as the unit.

So if you roll 7,7,8,9 you get 27

Or, if you roll 6,7,8,9, you get 19
The dice mechanic is an undoubtedly strong point, what with the ability to pick different pairs for different actions. But then the dice mechanics in Qin and Outlaws of the Water Margin have their strong points as well!

OotWM, for example, allows you to compare actions that use different "difficulty", and makes it quite clear that doing something very hard is always going to be harder, even if you're quite skilled. Many systems make you lose sight of that fact, while OotWM puts it front and center!

Another system that kinda does that is the ORC system, used in the Tibet RPG. I liked it there as well, but it allows skill to more than compensate for the difference in most difficulties.
 
Both are very good and well-researched! I used them for a PbP "pseudohistorical wuxia" set in the North-South Dynasty era...and the only reason I didn't use Wind of the Steppe is that it wasn't published yet:grin:!
I was hoping for more books, covering other parts of Asia, especially Eastern and Southeastern Asia.
 
I was hoping for more books, covering other parts of Asia, especially Eastern and Southeastern Asia.

We have considered and are considering more books. I have published a Japanese campaign in PDF, for instance. But at the moment we are stuck with the necessity to make the two books available again, which is not going to happen before 2021.
 
We have considered and are considering more books. I have published a Japanese campaign in PDF, for instance. But at the moment we are stuck with the necessity to make the two books available again, which is not going to happen before 2021.
That's cool to know. But I'm guessing the new books won't be for BRP anymore?
 
I suggest Prince Valiant. It is very simple and served well for my own Three Kingdoms campaign.
 
You guessed right. But our setting books are also usable as sourcebooks for other D100s.
My litmus test* for sourcebooks is: are they usable as sourcebooks regardless of system?


*It's called the GURPS Lite-mus, if you wonder. If you don't, that's just a pointless piece of random trivia:grin:!
 
Update:

None of my players wanted to learn a new system and they're all familiar with D&D, so I found a free OSR system called Shinobi & Samurai. I tweaked it so that it's Chinese themed instead, and I re-named it Dynasties & Daoists.

If anyone would like a copy of what I tweaked, I can PM it to you.
 
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Update:

None of my players wanted to learn a new system and they're all familiar with D&D, so I found a free OSR system called Shinobi & Samurai. I tweaked it so that it's Chinese themed instead, and I re-named it Dynasties & Daoists.

If anyone would like a copy of what I tweaked, I can PM it to you.
Not Historical Chinese but may be useful nonetheless: The Golden Scroll of Justice.

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Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate seems like it would be tricky to modify it for a game set in a period of war, considering its based upon martial art schools and the conflicts between them. Very Jin Yong feeling, which is cool but not something my players really want.
Yup. As an editor on some books in the line, I can confirm that Jin Yong is the main inspiration behind that game.
 
It seems like you want a system without the Wire-Fu and “Stone Toad Style” masters breaking swords that hit them with their skin.

I’d second Asen’s recommendation of Mythras. As a base system, it’s very “gritty, historical”, whatever you want to call it that means a master swordsman can still be killed with a single cut.
As a skill-based system, you just tailor skills to taste.
With Special Effects, Maneuvers, Weapon Styles, etc. it’s very customizable out of the box to customize Kung Fu powers and styles to your level of Mythic.
With 5 different magic types (more in other books) you can duplicate all kinds of Journey to the West style shenanigans if you want to.

If you can handle the Palladium system, Mythic China is one of the better versions of it. The martial arts styles and Kung Fu powers aren’t too crazy.

Mythras also has Ships and Shield Walls for army combat and if you can find it, MRQII Empires for large-scale strategic conflict.
 
Both are very good and well-researched! I used them for a PbP "pseudohistorical wuxia" set in the North-South Dynasty era...and the only reason I didn't use Wind of the Steppe is that it wasn't published yet:grin:!
I have Celestial Empire, I guess I’ll have to get Wind on the Steppes too.
 
It seems like you want a system without the Wire-Fu and “Stone Toad Style” masters breaking swords that hit them with their skin.

I’d second Asen’s recommendation of Mythras. As a base system, it’s very “gritty, historical”, whatever you want to call it that means a master swordsman can still be killed with a single cut.
As a skill-based system, you just tailor skills to taste.
With Special Effects, Maneuvers, Weapon Styles, etc. it’s very customizable out of the box to customize Kung Fu powers and styles to your level of Mythic.
With 5 different magic types (more in other books) you can duplicate all kinds of Journey to the West style shenanigans if you want to.

If you can handle the Palladium system, Mythic China is one of the better versions of it. The martial arts styles and Kung Fu powers aren’t too crazy.

Mythras also has Ships and Shield Walls for army combat and if you can find it, MRQII Empires for large-scale strategic conflict.

I'll probably use Mythras if I ever run a game like this again. I just need time to learn it myself.
 
If anybody wants to run a game in historical China and likes a bit of research I'd recommend Valerie Hansen's "The Open Empire" and the "Cambridge Illustrated Guide to China". Full of interesting tidbits. I've been prepping a Strange Tales of Songling game and they were very useful.
 
Both are excellent resources for Chinese history in English. Additionally, if anyone wants some specific Three Kingdoms history related work, I've got a huge list of stuff that I can recommend (it's super specific academic stuff though). As well it's good to look at historical literature like Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Outlaws of the Marsh, Dream of Red Chamber, Journey to the West, Soushen Ji, Shishuo Xinyu, Judge Di and Judge Bao novels just to get a sense of cultural themes; of course it will depend on what Dynasty you want to set your game in, and with fiction there will always be anachronisms (like there's no evidence of the Yanyuedao; better known as the Guandao, to exist in the Three Kingdoms period, though Romance of the Three Kingdoms has it as Guan Yu's signature weapon).

Then of course you've got Jin Yong, Gu Long, Liang Yusheng, and Wang Dulu (a large portion of all of their novels are translated into English. Wang Dulu, only the first one in the Crane-Iron Pentalogy is fully in English, but the other four will be eventually) for Wuxia style inspiration.
 
Additionally, if anyone wants some specific Three Kingdoms history related work, I've got a huge list of stuff that I can recommend (it's super specific academic stuff though)
Yes please!

For the classics the best translations for them I've found are:
Moss Roberts for Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Anthony Yu for Journey to the West
David Hawkes (Penguin Classics) for Story of the Stone/Dream of the Red Chamber


These are the generally agreed upon best translations.
I haven't found one I'm satisfied with for Water Margin/Outlaws of the Marsh.

20200412_001229.jpg
 
If anybody wants to run a game in historical China and likes a bit of research I'd recommend Valerie Hansen's "The Open Empire" and the "Cambridge Illustrated Guide to China". Full of interesting tidbits. I've been prepping a Strange Tales of Songling game and they were very useful.
Be sure to keep us informed on how that goes.
 
Yes please!

These are the generally agreed upon best translations.
I haven't found one I'm satisfied with for Water Margin/Outlaws of the Marsh.

I like Sydney Shapiro's translation. It's a lot better and much more readable than Pearl S. Buck's translation.

As for the list (warning there is a LOT):

Primary Source material translated by amateur historians:
A significant number of Sanguozhi biographies (written/compiled by Chen Shou) at http://kongming.net/novel/bios/type.php#sgz

General Later Han Dynasty/General Three Kingdoms/Western Jin:
Adoption in Han China by Miranda Brown and Rafe de Crespigny
Who were the Yellow Turbans? A Revisionist View by Chen Chiyun
The Three Chaste Ones of Ba: Local Perspectives on the Yellow Turban Rebellion on the Chengdu Plain by J. Michael Farmer
Cai Yan and the Poems Attributed to Her by Hans H. Frankel
Cai Yong | Daoism and Neo-Daoism (Chinese Polymaths) by Howard L Goodman
The Bifurcation of the Yellow Turbans by Howard S Levy
Yellow Turban Religion and Rebellion at the End of the Han by Howard S Levy
The Yellow Turbans by Paul Michaud
The Scholar-Official and His Community: The Character of the Aristocracy in Medieval China by Helwig Schmidt·Glintzer
The Restoration of the Han Dynasty: The Government Vol IV by Hans Bielenstien
The Bureaucracy of Han Times by Hans Bielenstein
Problems of Han Administration: Ancestral Rites, Weights and Measures and the Means of Protest by Michael Loewe
Science and Civilisation in China, Volume 4-2 by Joseph Needham
Three Kingdoms and Chinese Culture by Kimberly Ann Besio and Constantine Tung
Medieval Chinese Warfare 300-900 by David Graff
Women in Early Imperial China by Bret Hinsch
Women Shall Not Rule by Keith McMahon
Doctors, Diviners, and Magic by Kenneth J. DeWoskin
The Construction of Space in Early China by Mark Edward Lewis
Early Chinese Texts: A Bibliographical Guide by Michael Loewe
The Politics of Mourning in Early China by Miranda Brown
A Biographical Dictionary of Later Han to Three Kingdoms (23-230 AD) by Rafe de Crespigny
A Study of Early Chinese Armor by Albert Dien
State and Society in Early Medieval China by Albert Dien
Altered Remembrance: Historical Memory of the Yellow Turban Rebllion 184 CE by Brian Zielenski
An Illustrated Battle Account of the Han Dynasty by J. J. L. Duyvendak
An Introduction to Three Kingdoms by Yang Zhenyuan
Dynastic Decline in Eastern Han by Michael Loewe
Early Chinese Religion: Shang Through Han (1250 BC-220 AD) by John Lagerwey and Marc Kalinowski
Emperor Huan and Emperor Ling by Rafe de Crespigny
Everyday Life in Early Imperial China by Michael Loewe
Fire over Luoyang: A History of the Later Han Dynasty (23-220 AD) by Rafe de Crespigny
Han Frontiers: Toward an Integrated View by Nicola de Cosmo
Heaven and Death According to Huangfu Mi by Keith N. Knapp
History and the Three Kingdoms by Andrew Chittick
Inspection and Surveillance Officials Under the Han Dynasty by Rafe de Crespigny
Korean Peninsula and its relations with the Han Dynasty Commandery of Lelang by Hyung Il Pai
The Life and Legacy of Liu Biao: Governor, Warlord, and Imperial Pretender in Late Han China by Andrew Chittick
Memorials of Xiang Kai to Emperor Huan by Rafe de Crespigny
Bing: From Farmer's Son to Magistrate in Han China by Michael Loewe
Oracles and Divination by Michael Loewe and Carmen Blacker
Manuscripts Found Recently in China: A Preliminary Survey by Michael Loewe
The Way of the Warrior in Early Medieval China, Examined through the "Northern Yuefu" by Scott Pearce
The Xianbei in Chinese History by Charles Holcombe
The Transformation of Naval Warfare in Early Medieval China: The Role of Light Fast Boats by Andrew Chittick
The Southern Man People as a Political and Fiscal Problem in Han Times by Alexis Lycas
Xun Yue (A.D. 148-209) the life and reflections of an early medieval Confucian by Chen Chi-yun
Xun Yue and the Mind of Late Han China: A Translation of the Shen-chien with Introduction and Annotations by Chen Chi-yun


Cao Cao and the Wei Dynasty:
The Death of Empress Zhen: Fiction and Historiography in Early Medieval China by Robert Joe Cutter
"Well, how'd you become king, then?' Swords in Early Medieval China by Robert Joe Cutter
The Campaigns of Cao Cao by Karl Eikenberry (Novel Influence Present)
Imperial Library and Tungkuan restoration in the Wei and to a degree Wu and Jin (Chinese Polymaths) by Howard L Goodman
Difficulties of Performance: The Musical Career of Xu Wei's: "The Mad Drummer" by He Yuming
Imperial Warlord: A Biography of Cao Cao, 155-220 AD by Rafe de Crespigny
Cao Cao; Man from the Margin by Rafe de Crespigny
Cao Wei Conquest of Shu Han by John W. Killigrew
Cao Cao and the Rise of Wei; Dissertation by Carl Leban (hard to find)
The Hundred Offices of Wei and Jin by Yang Zhengyuan
The Contributions of Xun Yu and Xun You to the Foundations of Wei by Yang Zhengyuan

The Sun Family and the Wu Dynasty:
Generals of the South by Rafe de Crespigny
From Sanguo Zhi to Sanguo Zhi Yanyi: The Role of Sun Quan and the Development of Three Kingdoms Historiography by Hyung-Jong Lee
The Development of the Chinese Empire: A Discussion of the Origins of Wu by Rafe de Crespigny
The Biography of Sun Jian by Rafe de Crespigny

Liu Bei and the Shu-Han Dynasty:
What's in a Name? On the appellative "Shu" in Early Medieval Chinese historiography by J. Michael Farmer
Zhuge Liang in the Eyes of His Contemporaries by Erik Henry
Zhuge Liang's Southern Campaign and the Early Cuan Kingdom by John Herman
Zhuge Liang and the Northern Campaign of 228-234 by John Kililgrew
Historic Analogies and Evaluative Judgments: Zhuge Liang as Portrayed in Chen Shou's "Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms" and Pei Songzhi's Commentary by Hoyt Cleveland Tillman
Reassessing Du Fu's Line on Zhuge Liang by Hoyt Cleveland Tillman
The Talent of Shu. Qiao Zhou and the Intellectual World of Early Medieval Sichuan by J. Michael Farmer
Mastering the Art of War by Zhuge Liang and Liu Ji's commentaries edited by Thomas Cleary
A Few Textual Notes Regarding Guan Suo and Sanguo Yanyi by Gail King
Chu-ko Liang in the Eyes of His Contemporaries by Eric Henry
Legends of Zhuge Liang in Southwest China by Wenbin Peng
The Contributions of Pang Tong and Fa Zheng to the Foundations of Shu by Yang Zhengyuan

The Sima Clan After Sima Yi and The Jin Dynasty:
Dynastic Legitimacy During the Eastern Jin: Xi Zaochi and the Problem of Huan Wen by Andrew Chittick
Guan Lu | Xun Xu (Chinese Polymaths) by Howard L Goodman
From Spirited Youth to Loyal Official: Life, Writing, and Didacticism in the Jin Shu Biography of Wang Dao by Matthew v. Wells
The Biography of Lu Yun (262-303) in Jin Shu 54 by Sujane Wu
 
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