Tell me of your Love (Hate) for the Palladium RPG engine [Mega-Damage!!!]

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The entirety of my point. If we can agree on that, I'm good.

I mean, I do think he is not a great businessman, and that he is stuck in the past (and that the reason he still has fans is that they too are stuck in the past (Big Red Note here, I'm not talking about the design of the system being dated, but things like his thoughts on PDF/etc.)), and that he can be litigious and from descriptions of his home games I would not want to play in them, and that I think the Palladium system is a steaming pile of junk with more junk bolted onto it.

But as a person outside of what he has done in the hobby, you know, he's probably a nice enough guy, I don't know the man.
 
I mean, I do think he is not a great businessman, and that he is stuck in the past (and that the reason he still has fans is that they too are stuck in the past (Big Red Note here, I'm not talking about the design of the system being dated, but things like his thoughts on PDF/etc.)), and that he can be litigious and from descriptions of his home games I would not want to play in them, and that I think the Palladium system is a steaming pile of junk with more junk bolted onto it.

It is precisely this, all of this, that compounds my fascination with Kevin Siembieda.

By any reasonable standards we would expect Palladium to be an utter failure nowadays. And yet Kevin and Palladium soldier on, unabated.

Ascribing this to sheer luck seems disingenuous to me. Hence: respect.
 
Avoiding any conversation about the shittiness that might have accompanied that longevity seems disingenuous to me. Where does that leave us?
 
Avoiding any conversation about the shittiness that might have accompanied that longevity seems disingenuous to me. Where does that leave us?

emphasis mine. Are we proceeding from the assumption he must be "guilty" of something that makes him a shitty person, we just need to dig it up?
 
emphasis mine. Are we proceeding from the assumption he must be "guilty" of something that makes him a shitty person, we just need to dig it up?
No, i have read enough about KS that I dont need to assume. He's a bit of a dick maybe an enormous dick. But he's undoubtedly some kind of dick. I can proceed on that basis.
 
You were the ones calling him "a shitty person."

I did not call him that.

Someone who should never be allowed to use kickstar again then yes.

He took the money he received from a kickstarter and spent it before said kickstarter was even completed which I think is a little shady imo. He should have made sure the project was completed. The money was to be used for the kickstarter and nothing else. Not on anything else. If i loan someone 10000$ to repair water damage in their home and they decide take their family to Disneyland instead. First i won't trust the person. Second I will not loan the person anymore money. Third you can damn well bet I will let anyone who asks me if they can be trusted and tell them no they can't and to not lend them anymore money.

I have debated Palladium aplenty in this thread, and in many others before it. We have even agreed on a ton of things. But I do draw the line at the Two Minutes Hate bullshit.

Your entitled to your opinion on Kevin and I respect that also respect that others feel the same way. It's not hate simply because I criticize your favored rpg designer. I can claim that too whenever I don't like something in a discussion.

And I will debate whatever the hell I want (except of course politics, this being the Pub). Ignore button should be working fine.

As will I and your free to ignore what I post as well. I won't tell you what to post and you don't tell me what I can post.
 
He took the money he received from a kickstarter and spent it before said kickstarter was even completed which I think is a little shady imo. He should have made sure the roject was completed. The money was to be used for the kickstarter and nothing else. Not on anything else. If i loan someone 10000$ to repair water damage in their home and they decide take their family to Disneyland instead. First i won't trust the person. Second I will not loan the person anymore money. Third you can damn well bet I will let anyone who asks me if they can be trusted and tell them no they can't and to not lend them anymore money.

So, wait, do you have some evidence he spent it on anything besides the Kickstarter? Because I've never seen anything to that effect. AFAIK, the money from the KS was all spent on the KS, the problem was that he didn't have enough to complete it after having to pay for resculpting twice and dealing with the increased overseas shipping prices, twice over again
 
That is still on him to have budgeted and planned properly. He had assumed and wrongfully so that 98% of the work for the minis was done. With that amount of money sunk into a project one triple checks to make sure no mistakes were made. For some odd reason he assumed that almost all the work was done. Yes I know mistakes happen it's one hell of a mistake in a long line of mistakes imo.




After the Kickstarter successfully funded, Palladium announced a Fall 2013 release and said that the game was 98% done, because in the minds of all of us here, it was 98% done. The rest was easy ... or so we thought. You take the 3D sculpts, do physical 3D prints, make the molds, run the plastic figures, dice and tokens, print the rule book, cards, and cartons, box it all up, shrinkwrap it, ship it to the USA, and we ship it to you and the stores. Easy, right? Wrong. But, because this is what we thought and because we were so anxious to bring the game to you and the gaming community, we advertised in print and online that the game would be a Fall 2013 release. In retrospect, we probably should have waited until RRT was on the boat heading to America; but we were excited, so we moved ahead.

Maybe they saw easy profit and rushed ahead without bothering to get the correct information. Or mistakes were made by either PB or Ninja Division. It really does off as very bad business decision though.

When it other people money and not your that was lost it's easy to brush it off as well "shit happens" .
 
That is still on him to have budgeted and planned properly.

Sure, and why any backer thought he was qualified to do that, I still can't imagine. It's like "we like Robotoech, let's pay absoletely no attention to how this guy's company has been run the last 30 years."

But the point is, if that's where the money went, there's nothing to refund. That's what the backers paid for.

He had assumed and wrongfully so that 98% of the work for the minis was done...

After the Kickstarter successfully funded, Palladium announced a Fall 2013 release and said that the game was 98% done, because in the minds of all of us here, it was 98% done. The rest was easy ... or so we thought. You take the 3D sculpts, do physical 3D prints, make the molds, run the plastic figures, dice and tokens, print the rule book, cards, and cartons, box it all up, shrinkwrap it, ship it to the USA, and we ship it to you and the stores. Easy, right?

What? That's ALL of it. Like, that's 2% done. 3d sculpts? I can do one of those in like a half an hour (actually that was my job for a little while).

That's like's saying..."well, I got the storyboards done, so that's 98%. All I have to do now is cast actors, film the scenes, do the editting, get a distributor, and run an ad campaign. Easy right?"

And that wasn't like a giant warning sign to any backers at that point? LMAO
 
Well to be fair on the PB website I was pessimistic with the announcement as any trust i had with them was lost when the went with the N-gage for the Rifts videogame. Then locked themselves in a contract for the game in that it cannot be made on any other platforms just the N-gage. Myself and other like minded PB fans tried to advise them against it. We were then labelled as "haters and naysayers". When the Rifts videogame was released on a platform almost no one wanted well of course it was not Kevin or PB fault for choosing the wrong platform for the Rifts videogame.

Sure, and why any backer thought he was qualified to do that, I still can't imagine. It's like "we like Robotoech, let's pay absoletely no attention to how this guy's company has been run the last 30 years."

Hardcore PB fans assume Kevin can do no wrong no matter what anyone tells them. In this case unfortunately as the saying goes they had to learn the hard way. It was the only way or get labelled a hater or a naysayer and not a "true" fan of PB.

What? That's ALL of it. Like, that's 2% done. 3d sculpts? I can do one of those in like a half an hour (actually that was my job for a little while).

That sounds like one hell of a cool job to have imo.

That's like's saying..."well, I got the storyboards done, so that's 98%. All I have to do now is cast actors, film the scenes, do the editting, get a distributor, and run an ad campaign. Easy right?"

And that wasn't like a giant warning sign to any backers at that point? LMAO

As i said the hardcore fanbase refuses to believe Kevin can do no wrong and even if you warned them ahead of time one would summarily ignored. Once again they had to learn the hard way.
 
Sure, and why any backer thought he was qualified to do that, I still can't imagine. It's like "we like Robotoech, let's pay absoletely no attention to how this guy's company has been run the last 30 years."

There were assurances during the Kickstarter that Palladium Books was only involved as a licensor and that Kevin Siembieda was not managing the project.

I could not find them when I looked at the Kickstarter, but I remember reading those assurances and thinking "yeah... right."

Still, Robotech RPG Tactics brought in a LOT of people who were unfamiliar with Palladium. And a lot of those people ordered a lot of Wave 2 minis as add ons. And when Unca Kev took control, he immediately and permanently shelved all the Wave 2 stuff, but happily took the money. When everything finally crashed down and Harmony Gold yanked the license (it didn't expire. Harmony Gold explicitly ended their relationship), it was revealed that absolutely NO work had been done on Wave 2 since before the Kickstarter ended, 5 years previously. All the while, Unca Kev kept on saying, "any day now."
 
There were assurances during the Kickstarter that Palladium Books was only involved as a licensor and that Kevin Siembieda was not managing the project.

I could not find them when I looked at the Kickstarter, but I remember reading those assurances and thinking "yeah... right."

Still, Robotech RPG Tactics brought in a LOT of people who were unfamiliar with Palladium. And a lot of those people ordered a lot of Wave 2 minis as add ons. And when Unca Kev took control, he immediately and permanently shelved all the Wave 2 stuff, but happily took the money. When everything finally crashed down and Harmony Gold yanked the license (it didn't expire. Harmony Gold explicitly ended their relationship), it was revealed that absolutely NO work had been done on Wave 2 since before the Kickstarter ended, 5 years previously. All the while, Unca Kev kept on saying, "any day now."

Forgot about that.

It really does not paint him as a business owner in a good light imo.
 
There's also an old Murmur which was posted during the Kickstarter campaign (probably long since wiped from the Palladium server) where Unca Kev states plainly that he intends to use Kickstarter funds to pay some of Palladium Books's bills, complete production on a couple of Rifts books, and get some new printings of high demand out of stock books.

And after the Kickstarter ended, Palladium Books could suddenly afford large booths at GenCon. A couple of Rifts books suddenly were able to afford new cover art and could go to print. And some old out of stock books became available again.

So, did he use RRPGT Kickstarter funds to pay for these things? Or was there a sudden coincidental windfall unrelated to the Kickstarter?
 
You know those times where you make a funny, and you're giggling away to yourself as you type, and then everyone else is all like whooooah, bro, that's harshing my mellow? Yeah...

I do like the setting though.:quiet:

I laughed. :eat:
 
The failure of the Robotech project is pretty telling in regards to KS' level of acumen as a businessman. He's clearly good enough to run a small, boutique RPG company but was not successful when trying to step up to a larger scale project involving coordination across multiple companies.

So, I wouldn't say he's a total idiot but at the same time the "well, he's been in business for so long" needs to be tempered by acknowledging his big project fell far short of expectations.

If KS had tried the Robotech project with only Palladium money I'm guessing right now Palladium books could be bankrupt. But the magic of Kickstarter allows you to place all the risk on the individual backers. So, KS was smart enough to leverage Kickstarter but couldn't bring the project to fruition.
 
The failure of the Robotech project is pretty telling in regards to KS' level of acumen as a businessman. He's clearly good enough to run a small, boutique RPG company but was not successful when trying to step up to a larger scale project involving coordination across multiple companies.

The Peter Principle in action.
 
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Agreed.

Also, I wonder how much of it was due to what I think of as "Small Business Owner Syndrome". A lot of small business owners I've interacted with over the years seem like they can be successful as long the scale of operation is small enough they can be involved with every decision.

For example, a lot of FLGS owners I've known seem to do great with one store. But I've known several who, over the years, tried to expand to multiple stores and ultimately failed.

Part of the problem is always the inability to delegate authority. You can call someone a "store manager", but if you constantly undermine them and second guess their decisions they aren't really "managing" anything.

Anyway, this thread has really taken a turn down a tangent. For me, I think KS is a modestly good businessman. I also think he's a bit arrogant, and at times comes across as condescending to anyone who would disagree with his ideas.

None of those things really affect why I don't play his games. It really comes down to some of the design decisions, mostly MDC. MDC is an integral part of the Palladium games circa 2000s, and I really, really, really hate MDC.
 
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