Tell me of your Love (Hate) for the Palladium RPG engine [Mega-Damage!!!]

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Well it really depends on the spell...many of the go to spells are 5th level or less and you can cast maybe 10-15 of those before typically running out of juice as written.....one of the many things I try to address in my "2.0" rules.

i found a character in Library of Blethariad i think who was a 10th level wizard but only had a measly 180 odd PPE, which would certainly hamper magic use such that they would be heavily restricted. Not sure if that was an outlier, or someone botched chargen or something?

Good luck yet expect the usual in that they want nothing to change at all. Yet expect a miraculous financial recovery for PB with the rules unchanged and all the while maintaining the status quo.

let's just say that i have had a run in with a certain Kitty on that forum.

Another issue with magic is two things. One casters in Palladium rpgs once they take one point of damage lose the spell. Which means all it takes is a kid with a bag of rocks and a slingshot to keep a caster from being able to use magic. Second in a world like Rifts their is no decent anti-tech spells. I don't have the core book with me and I think the spell is called Negate Mechanics or technology and it is an absolute joke imo. Psionic characters can inexplicably mind control power armors and robots with I think it it called Telemachinal Posession. Somehow in a super magic PPE rich world no caster has not thought to learn a magic version of a decent anti-tech spell.

With mixing tech and magic i always remember that Mary Gentry (is that the right author?) where some Orcs are cursed by a dragon and pick up modern USA army kit and promptly slaughter everyone using machine guns - and are only slowed down anti-tech magic. it was glorious romp, and a wonderful reversal of fantasy.
 
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Another issue with magic is two things. One casters in Palladium rpgs once they take one point of damage lose the spell. Which means all it takes is a kid with a bag of rocks and a slingshot to keep a caster from being able to use magic. Second in a world like Rifts their is no decent anti-tech spells. I don't have the core book with me and I think the spell is called Negate Mechanics or technology and it is an absolute joke imo. Psionic characters can inexplicably mind control power armors and robots with I think it it called Telemachinal Posession. Somehow in a super magic PPE rich world no caster has not thought to learn a magic version of a decent anti-tech spell.

I think merc adventures had a number of tech related spells....not sure
 
I think merc adventures had a number of tech related spells....not sure

As I said not at home right now so no access to my books, though I found most of them underwhelming imo. An SDC version of Armor of Ithan in an MDC setting I might as well just walk naked into an MDC battle. Why would I downgrade to an sDV version when the MDC version is so much better, Some weird OCCs that also imo belong more in an sDC setting like Heroes unlimted. Paratrooper OCC I liked it as an OCC redundant in a world of jet packs and flying power armor. Not to mention the skies over Rifts Earth unlike other PB settings would be hazardous to say the least for any such regiment. Another want the equivalent of a Hazmat specialist works if the group is playing around a city not so much an adventuring group.
 
As I said not at home right now so no access to my books, though I found most of them underwhelming imo. An SDC version of Armor of Ithan in an MDC setting I might as well just walk naked into an MDC battle. Why would I downgrade to an sDV version when the MDC version is so much better, Some weird OCCs that also imo belong more in an sDC setting like Heroes unlimted. Paratrooper OCC I liked it as an OCC redundant in a world of jet packs and flying power armor. Not to mention the skies over Rifts Earth unlike other PB settings would be hazardous to say the least for any such regiment. Another want the equivalent of a Hazmat specialist works if the group is playing around a city not so much an adventuring group.

I have attempted a fix of rules....I could copy pasta here?
 
Have you? I have. I ended up doing nothing, not even contributing to the talky bits.

I haven't played that exact set-up, no. But playing I don't mind playing considerably less powerful characters.

Sadly, I was bored. When everyone else can do it all, and better than you...

It has everything to do with the group. My closest similar situation was a game of Shadowrun where my unoptimized-for-murder character was mocked, ignored and died quickly. But I was younger, most of the other players were too, and they all worshipped at the alter of the "hardcore killer" referee who owned the game. Almost every minute of every session was win or die combat. I realized I did not belong and learned a lot of important lessons, not that I was happy or polite about the experience at the time.

For many years now I have played with friends and local groups where anyone who rolls or chooses a sub par character still gets to contribute. We played classic Traveller for a long time, and my character wasn't in his service long enough for a cup of coffee. He had gunnery and smg skills and that was it. But he owned a single share in the ship and adventured happily with the rest. (Sort of a proto-Jayne Cobb from Firefly.)

My favourite magic-user started out too dumb to cast spells, he hid it for ages, relying on wands and scrolls. Eventually his INT was raised, which almost ruined the run.

I'm not competitive, I don't like to power play. Too old, lazy and content. My three regular groups contain the odd power gaming type, but they're not encouraged to be attention hogs and none of our campaigns are combat grinds, so we don't run into the situation where having a less powerful character is going to mess anything up.
 
I have only had to use magic in Beyond the Supernatural and Heroes Unlimited, where it never seemed much of a problem. It sounds like I missed a monster headache by never touching the stuff in RIFTS. I'm sure I've played in campaigns with magic-using player characters before, but I can't recall anything coming up, so I assume they'd picked what they liked from the 8,000,000,000 spells and knew how that bit of the system worked.

I do have the magic sourcebook for RIFTS, but I doubt I've done more than flick through it once or twice.

Whenever we play any Palladium game, no-one seems interested in magic, but animal psionics, superpowers and the like get a lot of love.
 
The magic system, like many elements in palladiums rules, has the right idea and direction and gets fucked up in execution.

Yeah, it had the potential to be good, but like we have talked about before does not match up to fluff, and inferior to technology really.

I know PPE channeling was a decent fix and liked by many fans of course it did not make it into RUE.

What is PPE channelling?
Sounds awfully similar to Essence Channelling from Unisystem.
 
The early fundamentals of the rules were good. Heavily-borrowed from D&D, more granular.

- A few extra attributes for things that crop up (like running speed).
- Combat is d20+mods, with defensive options like parry, dodge, disarm, etc.
- Skills on %, divided into education/training packages.
- Greater range of hit points and weapon damage.
- S.D.C. "structure points" for armour, objects and vehicles.
- Combat "styles" by way of Hand-to-Hand and Weapon Proficiencies.

I think this is why I can always happily go back to TMNT and honestly feel like it is a fully-playable game, because the only two additions to the above are BIO-E (a great mutant creation mini-game) and Animal Psionics (the easiest type of powers from any game line). There are a handful too many skills, but nothing else bothers me about the game in that form.

The issues with the system is how everything that came later is bolted on. Individually, the extra rules aren't too bad, but often inelegant.

Horror Factor was an early add. It doesn't work like other combat bonuses or like saving throws, yet still uses D20+mods. Later, Perception was codified as neither a skill nor an attribute, but another d20+mods roll that doesn't work like saves, combat or horror checks.

Do I use Horror Factor? Sure. I played BtS early on and got used to it. Do I use Perception? Nope. The system worked for decades without needing "I see stuff" working in this particular way.

Over time, the (relative) elegance and simplicity of the system was lost amid complex moving parts of all the sub-systems and the skill bloat.

Most of the big problems are born of RIFTS. Pre-RIFTS games are mostly compatible and while a referee might need to smooth the rough edge of this or that rule, nothing is so wonky it can't be easily fixed.

This is why a setting-agnostic core rulebook would be the best way to bring the Megaversal system into the 21st century. New revisions of the various game lines would take a lot longer. Someone needs to sit Kev' down, go through the rules as-written, as-intended and as-he-uses-them to nail the specifics that Kev' assumes everyone innately grasps. Ideally, the book needs to be written and edited by someone else, because I don't think anyone in Palladium Books can step back far enough to approach it right. Bill Coffin did the best job so far in Systems Failure (which is available again for a while!), but that was only a half measure and for a one-off game.
 
As i said elsewhere.....the system needs to be stripped back to its core, much like a car engine, to be fixed, the rebuild it and integrate all the new "technologies" as you go as opposed to just bolting on after market kits to the current engine as built.
 
As i said elsewhere.....the system needs to be stripped back to its core, much like a car engine, to be fixed, the rebuild it and integrate all the new "technologies" as you go as opposed to just bolting on after market kits to the current engine as built.

^ A thousand times this.
I am also contemplating in using some PF / DnD class abilities for fantasy stuff as it would mean that anyone not using magic is not irrelevant.
 
As i said elsewhere.....the system needs to be stripped back to its core, much like a car engine, to be fixed, the rebuild it and integrate all the new "technologies" as you go as opposed to just bolting on after market kits to the current engine as built.

Yes but I doubt will never happen.KS doesn’t seem the sort to take a step back, look at the system and realize the current, weirdly unbalanced state it has reached.

In face, I think KS believes the current system to be nearly perfect, and would probably say those of us ego feel it needs a massive overhaul aren’t they sort of faners to appreciate a “thinking man’s game”.
 
Bourbon kevin himself has multiple times, as well as those who have played in his open house games, that he doesn't even use the rules as written so.....
 
Yes but I doubt will never happen.KS doesn’t seem the sort to take a step back, look at the system and realize the current, weirdly unbalanced state it has reached.

I think he does and he does not even play by RAW and as Jaymz has said uses a houseruled version of his own rules. So he does realize it's shortcomings imo. Otherwise why play with a houseruled version of his own rules.

In face, I think KS believes the current system to be nearly perfect, and would probably say those of us ego feel it needs a massive overhaul aren’t they sort of faners to appreciate a “thinking man’s game”.

Well PB used to be in the top ten and not even in the top 30 of rpgs anymore. So the owner of an rpg company who had to turn to his fanbase to beg for money to stay afloat really should not be throwing stones at glasses houses.
 
Honestly the kevin of today is a mediocre used car salesman that depends on everyone else around him to do the work of making sure things actually work while he peddles his used wares.

i would not mind that so much, it's just that I hear more from the company about their continual PDF sales than them releasing new product. How can the company keep selling their products on special constantly. Either they have more money than we know or they are in such trouble that they need money asap. Either way it's hard to feel sympathy because they warned years ago by myself, you and other fans and they named us "haters". To put it another way if one is a raging diabetic don't come crying to me when one starts to lose their vision when told to stop eating sugar. Then telling those who told the person to be careful to go to hell.
 
Thus my pointed use of the words "used wares"
 
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i would not mind that so much, it's just that I hear more from the company about their continual PDF sales than them releasing new product.

And in some cases not releasing new stuff on pdf - Garden of the Gods (a follow on to Dragons and Gods - which is a truly excellent book). The preview is on DTRPG, but not the full product. It is just crazy.
 
Well leave it to PB to screw up something so simple as doing books in PDF.

Unless I am mistaken what was the reasoning that it should be backer exclusive reward? Almost as bad as rpg companies charging the same for PDF version as print because backers paid for the print version. I am not paying 50-65$ for a PDf because Joe or Jane gamer wanted the print version.
 
Nah they did it as backer reward as a way to make themselves seen to be not mired in in the 80s.

These are the same people quoted as saying e-readers etc are just a fad and "piracy" meanwhile tablet was fucking ubiquitous at the time among the population and every title was already available via a variety of torrents lol
 
Personally I'd understand a 6 month delay from physical release to digital release from a business stand point.
 
Personally I'd understand a 6 month delay from physical release to digital release from a business stand point.

PDF is cheaper though.
Some places would not want to pay for delivery as they would be stuck with out of area surcharges - thus making a physical copy prohibitive, while a pdf would not have this issue, and thus be more profitable.

EDIT: I have mentioned on here before but I see invoices from courier companies all the time with such things on them, or where the package is out of dimensions, or weight (usually from multiple items grouped together).
 
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Not the point though otherwise why would anyone sell physical copies?

6 months is a fair delay for a company built on selling physical books.

Sadly their "delay" is random and haphazard
 
Not the point though otherwise why would anyone sell physical copies?

Some people prefer physical copies, but that is mainly use oldies that do. Personally I prefer them but just do not have the space anymore. For instance there is a thread where a member has their basement with literally hundreds, upon hundreds of gaming manuals. Cannot remember if it was here or rpg.net. Not sure if someone else can find it?

6 months is a fair delay for a company built on selling physical books. Sadly their "delay" is random and haphazard

Palladium though are pretty hidebound when it comes to their products.

We all know that DTRPG tends to offer PDF & POD for quite a few titles - so using them would make more logistical sense, especially as I believe someone on here said that they even have printers in the UK, and US - thus distribution is cheaper, and more reliable. Otherwise you are essentially sending a physical book international in the hopes it is not lost, damaged etc during transit. Which sometimes can be a big if.

So when it comes to opening your so-called brand new product it is dented or bent in some way, you're going to be pretty disappointed. I know I would, and would also ask for discount or money back. But by that time it is too late, and only a company that values its customers would even contemplate htat - and I get the sense PB is not one of them.
 
However, knowing what the profit margin can be on a physical book versus a "cheaper" pdf I'd delay too.
 
Nah they did it as backer reward as a way to make themselves seen to be not mired in in the 80s.

These are the same people quoted as saying e-readers etc are just a fad and "piracy" meanwhile tablet was fucking ubiquitous at the time among the population and every title was already available via a variety of torrents lol

I know it seems that we come across as picking on Palladium Books. If it was not their hardcore fanbase claiming that E-readers and PDFs were a "fad" it was one of their employees linking to an article to that effect. Except almost everyone was releasing PDfs so it made them look techno-phobic imo. I think a fear of piracy was another reason except that genie was already out of the bottle.
 
Palladium though are pretty hidebound when it comes to their products.
It's because Mr. Siembeida is utterly terrified that someone will steal his ideas and monetize them without his say. It's why he pastes his 'official' statements with copyright and trademark symbols, think that they mean anything. Why he changed the Nightspawn name to Nightbane. Someone, likely a friend, lied to him about how it works and now he's using to protect 'his' ideas.
 
That was (also) due to the threat of a lawsuit from Todd McFarlane over perceived similarities to the character of Spawn.

How ironic this is, given Palladium's perceived penchant for threatening lawsuits, is left to you.
I never found any evidence that MacFarlane actually even knew of the book. It could have been someone telling Kevin that he WOULD get sued, and like usual he overreacted and shut it ALL down, rather than risk someone 'stealing' his idea.

Not saying that MacFarlane didn't threaten, just that I haven't seen anything but Palladium Books claiming he was.
 
I think someone told him all he needed to do was just add the © symbol next to his various IPS. When in reality one needs to do more and actually pay to register the copyright. Simply adding Heroes Unlimited © is not going to cut it. Otherwise anyone and everyone could simply copyright something by adding the © symbol.
 
I think someone told him all he needed to do was just add the © symbol next to his various IPS. When in reality one needs to do more and actually pay to register the copyright. Simply adding Heroes Unlimited © is not going to cut it. Otherwise anyone and everyone could simply copyright something by adding the © symbol.
In the United States, the © isn't necessary and neither is paying to register a copyright. The basics can be found here: https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf

Some exciting highlights:
"Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device."

"Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work."

"Registration is recommended for a number of reasons. Many choose to register their works because they wish to have the facts of their copyright on the public record and have a certificate of registration. Registered works may be eligible for statutory damages and attorney's fees in successful litigation. Finally, if registration occurs within five years of publication, it is considered prima facie evidence in a court of law."
 
Bourbon kevin himself has multiple times, as well as those who have played in his open house games, that he doesn't even use the rules as written so.....

not surprised. I wonder if he uses MDC? :grin:
 
That was (also) due to the threat of a lawsuit from Todd McFarlane over perceived similarities to the character of Spawn.

How ironic this is, given Palladium's perceived penchant for threatening lawsuits, is left to you.

Given McFarlane's reputation as an arsehole in the comic industry and his prolonged legal fights with... Essentially everyone he's ever worked with... Kev' almost comes across as being sympathetic.

Almost.

I honestly doubt Palladium were even on Todd's radar at the time Nightspawn came out, but his fortunes have risen and fallen a lot over the years. And he does seem to love pointless legal battles that take decades to resolve. I doubt Kev' could financially weather that without shaking his tin cup in front of the fans again.
 
Couldn't find anything to ascertain the veracity of the Macfarlane (threat of) litigation but stumbled upon, remebered and once more had a good laugh with the Trion Worlds lawsuit.
Again, I'm not sure that MacFarlane, jerk or not, even KNEW that Nightspawn existed. But I do remember the Trion lawsuit. Which to be fair, they were pretty close, both settings had Rifts that opened to alternate universe and attacking the main world. So that trademark case HAD to happen, otherwise Kevin might lose his claim, and the NEXT person could literally shut his game down, because he didn't defend it.

Trademark law is a dick.
 
My take on the Palladium System is it comes from a long previous era. In OSR, it's the of "rulings, not rules" school of game design and play. It has never evolved or changed with the times in nearly 40 years. The game is balanced at the table, and not in the rulebook. A lot of games popular today probably have direct lineages to Palladium games, in only that they are trying to fix all the things RIFTS did "wrong."

Every core book I've read published by Palladium has rules calls that are inconsistent, or even opposite depending on the page number (See: headshots in Dead Reign.). It feels very off the cuff, and I feel that's how it should be played. The games are driven by ideas and imagination, mechanics only come into play to resolve the ideas in in the book. GM's are expected to bring all of their experience with games to bear, making fair and/or interesting calls using any criteria they decide.

I still love Palladium armor rules. I'm surprised they haven't been stolen for some other fantasy or sci-fi heartbreaker. Outside of that, players will have to buy in to the gameplay concept, as it presumes a 1983 D&D mindset, and leans into it heavily which can be completely alien to players who cut their teeth on more recent games.
 
Random bit of not very serious issues:

The name change of Nightspawn to Nightbane really bugged me. The words "spawn" and "bane" are not even close to synonyms. Being born of the night (Nightspawn) makes a lot of sense in the setting, but not being a "bane" of the night, because I am not fighting or trying to destroy the night. Call it Nightparty or something.
 
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