The Curious Case of Gail Gygax

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I think that the topic of piracy might warrant a thread of its own outside of the context of Gail Gygax. It’s quite pregnant with discussion. I also think it’s a bit of a minefield, but maybe worth braving.
 
I think that the topic of piracy might warrant a thread of its own outside of the context of Gail Gygax. It’s quite pregnant with discussion. I also think it’s a bit of a minefield, but maybe worth braving.
I'm fine dropping it.
 
So I two questions regarding the magazine Gygax. 1) Did the brothers get legally threatened by her to stop publication? 2) Did she want a cut of the profits, however small they probably were, or did she felt like the magazine soiled the Gygax legacy somehow?

I don't want to become a cliche of defending Gail online, as I've backed off a lot of that in recent years for various reasons. However, the conversation here is pretty interesting, and I did want to comment on the magazine. (I'll post a few other comments later)

The Gygax Magazine thing is a lot more complex and I wanted to answer this question since a lot of people think they were sued by Gail. It's a bit more complex than that, and I feel I should re-iterate what I've said elsewhere.

  • Gygax Magazine was the brain child of Jayson Elliot. He did an interview (see it here) about the magazine once the announcement "leaked". I say leaked in quotes in that the leak seemed a bit planned. There are a few contradictions in that interview.
  • From what I understand, Gygax magazine was a partnership, but Luke and Ernie had a minority stake in the company. (So, for instance, if there was a falling out between the Gygaxes and Jayson, Jayson would own the trademark.
  • But there's the thing about the Trademark. TSR was registered at the USPTO before there was any TSR annoucement, and the new TSR spent a lot of time and money promoting Gygax magazine, etc. However, they never bothered to register the trademark.
  • Even when the release was made, and Gail made a statement concerned about the trademark, TSR still didn't register the trademark. They went along with their publishing plan. You would think they would have made this a priority considering Gail made her feelings clear.
  • Gail ended up registering this trademark on the anniversary of Gary's death the next year.
  • After over a year, TSR sent a challenge with their attorneys to the Trademark Action board. The TTAB pretty much requires both parties to go through the arbitration process. For about 16 months there was a series of registrations where TSR kept filing motions to suspend while they settle.
  • November 2016, a settlement happens. TSR makes a deal with Gail. Luke and Ernie do not want to be part of that deal, so they leave. From what I heard, Gail simply wanted them to agree not to attack her online.
  • Around March, 2017, Gygax shuts down, with no new issues published since the November 2016 settlement.

This leads to ask several questions. Why did TSR not try to register the trademark? I mean, they weren't stupid people, they had a lot of social media going and planned things like an unboxing party and there was loads of publicity, etc. Why does Jayson talk about Gail being nice the whole time when it seems she wasn't onboard. Did they think perhaps they could get Gail to agree to a deal? Did they actually want the controversy because this kept them in the press? The whole thing seems odd to me.

As for the whole thing about the trademark--well, I know in life Gary did not want to trademark his own name like some famous people do, simply since he never wanted to lose that in a lawsuit. The big issues is you trademark for commerce purposes, not to "honour" somebody. When a gamer sees the name Gygax by itself, they aren't thinking of Luke, Ernie, Gail, or anybody else--they are thinking of Gary. Having somebody outside of the estate trademark the name could conceptually be used to prevent her from publishing Gary's own work, even if they say they have no intention of doing so.

First of all, this was based on Dragon Magazine, so why not first look for other terms--Drake, Firewyrm, Draco, or something synonym that wouldn't challenge the still in-use Dragon trademark WoTC owns. If you wanted Luke and Ernie's endorsement, you could have simply done something like say "Luke and Ernie Gygax present", or even "The Gygax Brothers present". There were ways to do this properly without trying to trademark the Gygax surname. Despite people complaining about Gail trying to shut down Gary's sons from using their name, there's no evidence she's done that at all. Ernie did his Kickstarter, for instance. There is a difference between using your own full name and attempting to trademark your surname.

But the other thing about this magazine is that I don't think this magazine would have survived even if there was no dispute. The fact is, magazines are a hard sell in this day an age. (Heck, publications that have been around for decades have cut back). WoTC felt a print magazine like Dragon isn't viable. and Kobold Quarterly had folded earlier. I think they kind of felt word of mouth would suddenly build a market for this.

The TSR company has only produced one thing of note since then--they Kickstarted a Top Secret game (another acquired trademark) and got Merle M. Rasmussen to write a new game. The only other products than that or back issues of Gygax magazine is a few extracted modules from Gygax magazine. This company seems to be mostly based on nostalgia, or getting trademarks and making something out of them. That doesn't seem to be a healthy business model.

If people want to blame Gail for shutting this down, that's their choice. But, as expressed above, this was a lot more complicated a matter.
 
I don't want to become a cliche of defending Gail online, as I've backed off a lot of that in recent years for various reasons. However, the conversation here is pretty interesting, and I did want to comment on the magazine. (I'll post a few other comments later)

The Gygax Magazine thing is a lot more complex and I wanted to answer this question since a lot of people think they were sued by Gail. It's a bit more complex than that, and I feel I should re-iterate what I've said elsewhere.

  • Gygax Magazine was the brain child of Jayson Elliot. He did an interview (see it here) about the magazine once the announcement "leaked". I say leaked in quotes in that the leak seemed a bit planned. There are a few contradictions in that interview.
  • From what I understand, Gygax magazine was a partnership, but Luke and Ernie had a minority stake in the company. (So, for instance, if there was a falling out between the Gygaxes and Jayson, Jayson would own the trademark.
  • But there's the thing about the Trademark. TSR was registered at the USPTO before there was any TSR annoucement, and the new TSR spent a lot of time and money promoting Gygax magazine, etc. However, they never bothered to register the trademark.
  • Even when the release was made, and Gail made a statement concerned about the trademark, TSR still didn't register the trademark. They went along with their publishing plan. You would think they would have made this a priority considering Gail made her feelings clear.
  • Gail ended up registering this trademark on the anniversary of Gary's death the next year.
  • After over a year, TSR sent a challenge with their attorneys to the Trademark Action board. The TTAB pretty much requires both parties to go through the arbitration process. For about 16 months there was a series of registrations where TSR kept filing motions to suspend while they settle.
  • November 2016, a settlement happens. TSR makes a deal with Gail. Luke and Ernie do not want to be part of that deal, so they leave. From what I heard, Gail simply wanted them to agree not to attack her online.
  • Around March, 2017, Gygax shuts down, with no new issues published since the November 2016 settlement.

This leads to ask several questions. Why did TSR not try to register the trademark? I mean, they weren't stupid people, they had a lot of social media going and planned things like an unboxing party and there was loads of publicity, etc. Why does Jayson talk about Gail being nice the whole time when it seems she wasn't onboard. Did they think perhaps they could get Gail to agree to a deal? Did they actually want the controversy because this kept them in the press? The whole thing seems odd to me.

As for the whole thing about the trademark--well, I know in life Gary did not want to trademark his own name like some famous people do, simply since he never wanted to lose that in a lawsuit. The big issues is you trademark for commerce purposes, not to "honour" somebody. When a gamer sees the name Gygax by itself, they aren't thinking of Luke, Ernie, Gail, or anybody else--they are thinking of Gary. Having somebody outside of the estate trademark the name could conceptually be used to prevent her from publishing Gary's own work, even if they say they have no intention of doing so.

First of all, this was based on Dragon Magazine, so why not first look for other terms--Drake, Firewyrm, Draco, or something synonym that wouldn't challenge the still in-use Dragon trademark WoTC owns. If you wanted Luke and Ernie's endorsement, you could have simply done something like say "Luke and Ernie Gygax present", or even "The Gygax Brothers present". There were ways to do this properly without trying to trademark the Gygax surname. Despite people complaining about Gail trying to shut down Gary's sons from using their name, there's no evidence she's done that at all. Ernie did his Kickstarter, for instance. There is a difference between using your own full name and attempting to trademark your surname.

But the other thing about this magazine is that I don't think this magazine would have survived even if there was no dispute. The fact is, magazines are a hard sell in this day an age. (Heck, publications that have been around for decades have cut back). WoTC felt a print magazine like Dragon isn't viable. and Kobold Quarterly had folded earlier. I think they kind of felt word of mouth would suddenly build a market for this.

The TSR company has only produced one thing of note since then--they Kickstarted a Top Secret game (another acquired trademark) and got Merle M. Rasmussen to write a new game. The only other products than that or back issues of Gygax magazine is a few extracted modules from Gygax magazine. This company seems to be mostly based on nostalgia, or getting trademarks and making something out of them. That doesn't seem to be a healthy business model.

If people want to blame Gail for shutting this down, that's their choice. But, as expressed above, this was a lot more complicated a matter.
Thanks for this. It adds a lot more color than I'd ever heard before.
 
The TSR company has only produced one thing of note since then--they Kickstarted a Top Secret game (another acquired trademark) and got Merle M. Rasmussen to write a new game...... That doesn't seem to be a healthy business model.

And given how the Kickstarter went. Late and problems with the actual game, I wish you’d have posted all of this before I’d backed the Kickstarter!:grin:
 
I don't want to become a cliche of defending Gail online, as I've backed off a lot of that in recent years for various reasons. However, the conversation here is pretty interesting, and I did want to comment on the magazine. (I'll post a few other comments later)

The Gygax Magazine thing is a lot more complex and I wanted to answer this question since a lot of people think they were sued by Gail. It's a bit more complex than that, and I feel I should re-iterate what I've said elsewhere.

  • Gygax Magazine was the brain child of Jayson Elliot. He did an interview (see it here) about the magazine once the announcement "leaked". I say leaked in quotes in that the leak seemed a bit planned. There are a few contradictions in that interview.
  • From what I understand, Gygax magazine was a partnership, but Luke and Ernie had a minority stake in the company. (So, for instance, if there was a falling out between the Gygaxes and Jayson, Jayson would own the trademark.
  • But there's the thing about the Trademark. TSR was registered at the USPTO before there was any TSR annoucement, and the new TSR spent a lot of time and money promoting Gygax magazine, etc. However, they never bothered to register the trademark.
  • Even when the release was made, and Gail made a statement concerned about the trademark, TSR still didn't register the trademark. They went along with their publishing plan. You would think they would have made this a priority considering Gail made her feelings clear.
  • Gail ended up registering this trademark on the anniversary of Gary's death the next year.
  • After over a year, TSR sent a challenge with their attorneys to the Trademark Action board. The TTAB pretty much requires both parties to go through the arbitration process. For about 16 months there was a series of registrations where TSR kept filing motions to suspend while they settle.
  • November 2016, a settlement happens. TSR makes a deal with Gail. Luke and Ernie do not want to be part of that deal, so they leave. From what I heard, Gail simply wanted them to agree not to attack her online.
  • Around March, 2017, Gygax shuts down, with no new issues published since the November 2016 settlement.

This leads to ask several questions. Why did TSR not try to register the trademark? I mean, they weren't stupid people, they had a lot of social media going and planned things like an unboxing party and there was loads of publicity, etc. Why does Jayson talk about Gail being nice the whole time when it seems she wasn't onboard. Did they think perhaps they could get Gail to agree to a deal? Did they actually want the controversy because this kept them in the press? The whole thing seems odd to me.

As for the whole thing about the trademark--well, I know in life Gary did not want to trademark his own name like some famous people do, simply since he never wanted to lose that in a lawsuit. The big issues is you trademark for commerce purposes, not to "honour" somebody. When a gamer sees the name Gygax by itself, they aren't thinking of Luke, Ernie, Gail, or anybody else--they are thinking of Gary. Having somebody outside of the estate trademark the name could conceptually be used to prevent her from publishing Gary's own work, even if they say they have no intention of doing so.

First of all, this was based on Dragon Magazine, so why not first look for other terms--Drake, Firewyrm, Draco, or something synonym that wouldn't challenge the still in-use Dragon trademark WoTC owns. If you wanted Luke and Ernie's endorsement, you could have simply done something like say "Luke and Ernie Gygax present", or even "The Gygax Brothers present". There were ways to do this properly without trying to trademark the Gygax surname. Despite people complaining about Gail trying to shut down Gary's sons from using their name, there's no evidence she's done that at all. Ernie did his Kickstarter, for instance. There is a difference between using your own full name and attempting to trademark your surname.

But the other thing about this magazine is that I don't think this magazine would have survived even if there was no dispute. The fact is, magazines are a hard sell in this day an age. (Heck, publications that have been around for decades have cut back). WoTC felt a print magazine like Dragon isn't viable. and Kobold Quarterly had folded earlier. I think they kind of felt word of mouth would suddenly build a market for this.

The TSR company has only produced one thing of note since then--they Kickstarted a Top Secret game (another acquired trademark) and got Merle M. Rasmussen to write a new game. The only other products than that or back issues of Gygax magazine is a few extracted modules from Gygax magazine. This company seems to be mostly based on nostalgia, or getting trademarks and making something out of them. That doesn't seem to be a healthy business model.

If people want to blame Gail for shutting this down, that's their choice. But, as expressed above, this was a lot more complicated a matter.


Very interesting. If that is all true, it calls into question a lot of stuff I've heard over the years from different sources. I kinda feel like (as usual) both sides of the story are leaving out some crucial info. In the end though, it's not for me to know or judge I guess. At this point I just hope Gail has a happy retirement and hope whatever is bothering her is eventually dealt with. It's a shame about Gygax magazine, but chances are it wouldn't be around now anyways even if the lawsuit hadn't happened. The age of in-print magazines is in it's twilight years.

It would be nice for the family to come to terms before she passes as well, but I've got no advice to give there, considering I haven't spoken to either of my parents in going on 20 years now, and will probably drink a scotch at celebration upon hearing of their passing.
 
I just want castle zagyg back in print. Really what's the logic of keeping the only means of getting it either illegal or on the secondary market where she doesn't profit at all.
 
The age of in-print magazines is in it's twilight years.

Sadly I think the age of the print gaming magazine, with only very specific exceptions, was over decades ago. For most publishers, even ones with successful game lines to support, they were always a precarious business.

This is what Warren Spector, editor-in-chief of Space Gamer, had to say in 1985 as publisher Steve Jackson Games finally admitted defeat and sold the magazine:

Screenshot_20190716-123441-01.jpeg.

These days the odds are stacked even more heavily against print.
 
I just want castle zagyg back in print. Really what's the logic of keeping the only means of getting it either illegal or on the secondary market where she doesn't profit at all.
Have you checked out Castle of the Mad Archmage? It is basically a love letter to Castle Greyhawk although there's too much random silliness for my taste.
 
J JRT
Thank you for weighing in on the topic and offering a fresh (for me at least) perspective on the issue.
 
Sadly I think the age of the print gaming magazine, with only very specific exceptions, was over decades ago. For most publishers, even ones with successful game lines to support, they were always a precarious business.

This is what Warren Spector, editor-in-chief of Space Gamer, had to say in 1985 as publisher Steve Jackson Games finally admitted defeat and sold the magazine:

View attachment 10802.

These days the odds are stacked even more heavily against print.

The only reason I say Twilight and not dead, is fashion and tabloid mags still seem to be hanging on, at least as evidenced by my trips to grocery stores
 
I don't want to become a cliche of defending Gail online, as I've backed off a lot of that in recent years for various reasons. However, the conversation here is pretty interesting, and I did want to comment on the magazine. (I'll post a few other comments later)

The Gygax Magazine thing is a lot more complex and I wanted to answer this question since a lot of people think they were sued by Gail. It's a bit more complex than that, and I feel I should re-iterate what I've said elsewhere.

  • Gygax Magazine was the brain child of Jayson Elliot. He did an interview (see it here) about the magazine once the announcement "leaked". I say leaked in quotes in that the leak seemed a bit planned. There are a few contradictions in that interview.
  • From what I understand, Gygax magazine was a partnership, but Luke and Ernie had a minority stake in the company. (So, for instance, if there was a falling out between the Gygaxes and Jayson, Jayson would own the trademark.
  • But there's the thing about the Trademark. TSR was registered at the USPTO before there was any TSR annoucement, and the new TSR spent a lot of time and money promoting Gygax magazine, etc. However, they never bothered to register the trademark.
  • Even when the release was made, and Gail made a statement concerned about the trademark, TSR still didn't register the trademark. They went along with their publishing plan. You would think they would have made this a priority considering Gail made her feelings clear.
  • Gail ended up registering this trademark on the anniversary of Gary's death the next year.
  • After over a year, TSR sent a challenge with their attorneys to the Trademark Action board. The TTAB pretty much requires both parties to go through the arbitration process. For about 16 months there was a series of registrations where TSR kept filing motions to suspend while they settle.
  • November 2016, a settlement happens. TSR makes a deal with Gail. Luke and Ernie do not want to be part of that deal, so they leave. From what I heard, Gail simply wanted them to agree not to attack her online.
  • Around March, 2017, Gygax shuts down, with no new issues published since the November 2016 settlement.

This leads to ask several questions. Why did TSR not try to register the trademark? I mean, they weren't stupid people, they had a lot of social media going and planned things like an unboxing party and there was loads of publicity, etc. Why does Jayson talk about Gail being nice the whole time when it seems she wasn't onboard. Did they think perhaps they could get Gail to agree to a deal? Did they actually want the controversy because this kept them in the press? The whole thing seems odd to me.

As for the whole thing about the trademark--well, I know in life Gary did not want to trademark his own name like some famous people do, simply since he never wanted to lose that in a lawsuit. The big issues is you trademark for commerce purposes, not to "honour" somebody. When a gamer sees the name Gygax by itself, they aren't thinking of Luke, Ernie, Gail, or anybody else--they are thinking of Gary. Having somebody outside of the estate trademark the name could conceptually be used to prevent her from publishing Gary's own work, even if they say they have no intention of doing so.

First of all, this was based on Dragon Magazine, so why not first look for other terms--Drake, Firewyrm, Draco, or something synonym that wouldn't challenge the still in-use Dragon trademark WoTC owns. If you wanted Luke and Ernie's endorsement, you could have simply done something like say "Luke and Ernie Gygax present", or even "The Gygax Brothers present". There were ways to do this properly without trying to trademark the Gygax surname. Despite people complaining about Gail trying to shut down Gary's sons from using their name, there's no evidence she's done that at all. Ernie did his Kickstarter, for instance. There is a difference between using your own full name and attempting to trademark your surname.

But the other thing about this magazine is that I don't think this magazine would have survived even if there was no dispute. The fact is, magazines are a hard sell in this day an age. (Heck, publications that have been around for decades have cut back). WoTC felt a print magazine like Dragon isn't viable. and Kobold Quarterly had folded earlier. I think they kind of felt word of mouth would suddenly build a market for this.

The TSR company has only produced one thing of note since then--they Kickstarted a Top Secret game (another acquired trademark) and got Merle M. Rasmussen to write a new game. The only other products than that or back issues of Gygax magazine is a few extracted modules from Gygax magazine. This company seems to be mostly based on nostalgia, or getting trademarks and making something out of them. That doesn't seem to be a healthy business model.

If people want to blame Gail for shutting this down, that's their choice. But, as expressed above, this was a lot more complicated a matter.


What's the source for all this information?
 
What's the source for all this information?

While a few of those bullet items are he-said/she-said sort of things, all of the information of the trademark stuff can be found online simply by visiting the USPTO.gov web site. http://tess2.uspto.gov/

While TESS searches can't be bookmarked, the serial number for the Trademark for the magazine is 85866565,, and the history of the registration can be found here. (Note, I also search for every Gygax Trademark and there was no other filing by TSR)


And the Legal Proceedings can be found here:


If these links do not work, then just search for Gygax and click the serial number I stated above, then click the TSDR button and the TTAB button to get those reports.
 
BTW the Gail Gygax article has some nice pics of Gary and Gail in their glory days. Gary looks trim and debonaire.

View attachment 10306

They both do. Great photo.

Whichever way you cut it, it’s sad that it had to end like this. People die, but the erosion of social and family support networks is devastating.

Piracy is for ass-munchers.

Surely you have it backwards? Ass-munching is for pirates?
giphy.gif
 
The one side of this that really bummed me out was how Castle Zygag got shit canned because of the way the IP was handled after Gary died. This product was the best late-career testament to his creativity, drew on the efforts of a bunch of excellent game designers, and was supposed to be a flagship for TLG, and the first installment was superb. It was the best possible love letter to the hobby, and it should have been super-charged with renewed effort to honor him after he passed.
 
The one side of this that really bummed me out was how Castle Zygag got shit canned because of the way the IP was handled after Gary died. This product was the best late-career testament to his creativity, drew on the efforts of a bunch of excellent game designers, and was supposed to be a flagship for TLG, and the first installment was superb. It was the best possible love letter to the hobby, and it should have been super-charged with renewed effort to honor him after he passed.

Whenever I see that product mentioned, Castle Zigzag is what pops in my head every time. Maybe that would have been a better name for it.
 
Very interesting. If that is all true, it calls into question a lot of stuff I've heard over the years from different sources. I kinda feel like (as usual) both sides of the story are leaving out some crucial info.

Yeah, each side has their own biases, and anybody who has an opinion, including myself. But there are certain things that you can fact-check, and all that trademark stuff can be researched online.

It's a shame about Gygax magazine, but chances are it wouldn't be around now anyways even if the lawsuit hadn't happened. The age of in-print magazines is in it's twilight years.

True. Last month I found out Entertainment Weekly is going to become a monthly starting in August. There are magazines that manage to survive but they are probably ones that benefit from the glossy format and have a specific appeal. With forums, blogs, social media, and new ways of publishing I can't see the magazine format being the best way to publish gaming content anymore.

I just want castle zagyg back in print. Really what's the logic of keeping the only means of getting it either illegal or on the secondary market where she doesn't profit at all.

The very problem however is that this has long passed. From what I understand, there are three copyrights involved in the CZ items. Trigee's which is the core one, but all the game stats are copyright by Troll Lord, and all the art is copyright by the artists. You'd actually have to negotiate a new deal to reprint the existing stuff as is, or transform it before doing it again. And remember, Gail has now licensed her stuff to Tom DeSanto's company, and there is now a dispute between those parties.

And given how the [Top Secret] Kickstarter went. Late and problems with the actual game, I wish you’d have posted all of this before I’d backed the Kickstarter!:grin:

To be honest, I backed the Top Secret Kickstarter since I did want to see TSR produce something, they involved the original game's creator, so it seemed intriguing. I had only noticed later some of the backers bitterness, and noted that TSR didn't really do much to support it after the original release. A third party publisher has done a few things for the rules. I mostly noted it since it's a bit indicative of the flaws I see in the TSR Games label.

They both do. Great photo.

Gary had once said that photo was him doing a Groucho Marx take.
 
Have any of the people scratching each others eyes out over the Gygax IP managed to monetize any of it? It sounds like they are just spinning their wheels in a shit show over nothing.
 
Have any of the people scratching each others eyes out over the Gygax IP managed to monetize any of it? It sounds like they are just spinning their wheels in a shit show over nothing.

In terms of the existing conflict--no. Tom DeSanto is still engaging in legal action against Gail for breach of contract.

But a lot of the fight and conflicts between various parties, indeed, the value of Gygax is likely due to potential rather than current value. I'll explain as I go through the thread's past a bit. (I'm feeling wistful, since it would have been Gary's birthday on Saturday.)
 
I’m skeptical there’s anything in his “lost works” that’s worth much of anything. If there was gold in them there hills, it would have been dug up already.

I think there's some value, but there are two levels of value, what's available strictly from an existing IP standpoint, and potential value.

One of the biggest issues when it comes to Gary's properties rather than typical authors is a lot of the work that made him famous is tied up in the D&D IP, which belongs to a large corporation. The stuff that made Gary famous--D&D, AD&D, World of Greyhawk, Tomb of Horrors, Temple of Elemental Evil, GDQ, etc., all belong to others. So, there's no value or royalties from any reprints, etc.

What that leaves is any unpublished manuscripts, etc. Having worked with Gary in the last decade of his life, I think the biggest thing he had in computer format were the Lejendary Adventure stuff, plus a few works that he planned to publish but never did. However, Paul Stromberg has been working with Gail to preserve things, and he goes into some details of what's available here:



I guess the biggest question is how big is Gary's hard-core audience. There are two levels of that audience. The first is the hard core who followed Gary everywhere--from Dangerous Journeys to Lejendary Adventures. But that is smaller than the Grognard audience, those die-hard AD&D fans who are still mad at Gary's departure and would like to see the potential of what might have been.

Even then, however, I'm curious how big that audience is and how much they'd want to pay. Also, what is the state of the material. Rough notes might be cool, but they aren't the fleshed out modules we grew up reading. Stromberg worked with Rob Kuntz to publish his unpublished stuff--and several die-hard fans reviewed that and found it lacking. And if we're dealing with Greyhawk proper nouns, would a deal need to be reached with WoTC to publish?

So, that's the "current value".

However, I think a lot of the fight is over "potential value".

Despite people thinking Gary just wanted to design table-top games, he know computer games were the future and really did want to break into the sphere. He worked on a cancelled video game project for Cyberdreams (they published Harlan Ellison's adaptation), and Lejendary Adventures was really a computer game design he adapted into a tabletop system. (Terms like avatar and Action Block Count are key hints). He even had a license deal with some publisher to do LA as an MMO. This was always a dream unfulfilled. He more or less went back to table-top since he knew that best.

The death of Gary left a void. Despite the stated plans for Castle Zagyg, I think the biggest issue with Gary's estate is he really didn't have anybody you could call a "creative heir". There wasn't one designated person to handle this, and I also think Gary's unique writing style was something you could only get while he lived. Most of his co-writers were with one project or another. Note that none of his children really did anything with him post-TSR, so there wasn't any sort of dynasty being formed. This left Gail, the estate inheritor, with a bit of a decision to make.

I think Gail is or was looking more for the potential of Gary's legacy--the potential achieved heights he could make, and probably goes that route because it would lead to the widest audience and lead to the D&D heights again. I personally think this is a risky long-shot, but if it works it can pay off. Laugh at you want at something like Gord the Rogue's value--but now imagine if fans of the work were able to take that character and create the next Witcher franchise. The Witcher itself was a novel series known little outside Poland, but a game company made it a success in the West. That seems to be the value Gail sees, as well as the value DeSanto may see. Look at how many things Gene Roddenberry "wrote" after his death--Earth: Final Conflict and Andromeda were both brought to TV just on the fact that this guy was the creator of Star Trek.

I guess the harder thing for me to understand is why existing deals had to be pulled for this, and If I was in charge, I would have tried to do develop the potential value while also keeping publishing plans in place.

But potential value does exist. Just the name Gary Gygax can give a lot of things a "signal boost" (as they say these days). So I think all the fights over things like this is based on the potential that could be rather than what is.
 
What that leaves is any unpublished manuscripts, etc. Having worked with Gary in the last decade of his life, I think the biggest thing he had in computer format were the Lejendary Adventure stuff, plus a few works that he planned to publish but never did. However, Paul Stromberg has been working with Gail to preserve things, and he goes into some details of what's available here:
...
Even then, however, I'm curious how big that audience is and how much they'd want to pay. Also, what is the state of the material. Rough notes might be cool, but they aren't the fleshed out modules we grew up reading. Stromberg worked with Rob Kuntz to publish his unpublished stuff--and several die-hard fans reviewed that and found it lacking.
...
I think the biggest issue with Gary's estate is he really didn't have anybody you could call a "creative heir". There wasn't one designated person to handle this, and I also think Gary's unique writing style was something you could only get while he lived.

This reminds me of when recording artists like Prince or Jim Morrison died with a bunch of partially formed works kind of out there in half-formed experimental iterations, and it's not clear exactly what you can do with them to turn them into salable product, and there's no clear person who ought to be doing so anyways.
 
I’m not a big fan of mining artists catalogues for every little snippet they might have slapped together in a studio and selling them as if they were a small bag of gold nuggets when what they really are is stale chocolate coins wrapped in gold foil.
 
The other exception is generally stuff people were working on when they died. Stuff like Otis Reddings Sitting on the Dock of the Bay are great songs, that were only not unreleased at his death cause he died before it released.
 
Whatever Gary had left on the cutting room floor will inevitably be compared to his seminal work, D&D, fair or not. Hopefully no one is expecting that kind of material sitting on his hard drives and in his notebooks.

I’m not even saying Gary has to have that kind of material laying around unpublished. If he, along with Dave Arneson, did nothing else besides come up with OD&D, it’s MORE THAN ENOUGH.
 
I suspect that precious few people are holding their collective breaths for unreleased Gygaxia. To make the name worth something, you'd have to invest some money up front to promote his past works and place in history. If anyone tried to put out something with Gary's name at the top, I'm sure it would sell some copies, but unless it's actually really good (and it won't be without a ton of polishing), then it's not going to recoup anyone's legal fees at this point.
 
My expectation is that Castle Zagyg is the last we'll see from his creative productions that makes it into a well executed, game-able format. As far as I can tell, there is no one involved who has the drive and creative energy to mold half-baked notes and character sketches into something that would make a big impact in the modern gaming market. And Gygax's primary material has a lot of highs but also a lot of lows; I'd be really surprised if there is much that never made it through production editing yet is still worth your attention.
 
As far as I can tell, there is no one involved who has the drive and creative energy to mold half-baked notes and character sketches into something that would make a big impact in the modern gaming market. And Gygax's primary material has a lot of highs but also a lot of lows; I'd be really surprised if there is much that never made it through production editing yet is still worth your attention.
I think Jeffrey Talanian could do it. He worked with Gary during his last years on Castle Zagyg and groks the spirit of AD&D. He also writes better High Gygaxian than Gary.
 
My expectation is that Castle Zagyg is the last we'll see from his creative productions that makes it into a well executed, game-able format. As far as I can tell, there is no one involved who has the drive and creative energy to mold half-baked notes and character sketches into something that would make a big impact in the modern gaming market. And Gygax's primary material has a lot of highs but also a lot of lows; I'd be really surprised if there is much that never made it through production editing yet is still worth your attention.

The irony is that Castle Zagyg was probably the biggest cursed project of them all, it was troubled from the get-go. The following things hit as a perfect storm that really prevented it from happening.

  • Gary never worked on his own to develop it as a ready to use product. He actually avoiding doing anything related to AD&D for several years, and wanted to work on his new games. He wasn't the kind of guy to do work "in the background" unless he was really passionate about it.
  • Gary never wanted to do this project without a co-writer. Having observed in the past how passionate he was on some things, anything Gary required a co-writer for meant it was less appealing to him personally.
  • Gary seemed to agree to this project in part because TLG was helping him publish Lejendary Adventures, and probably because he liked the Trolls. I think he also agreed to do it because he thought the Troll's plans for C&C was going to help preserved older styles of gaming. But it was a bit weird since Gary didn't do much of anything to assist with their game development plans.
  • A major thing that affected this project was Gary's Stroke. While Gary still had all his faculties, he slowed down a lot after this. The manuscript of Yggsburg was completed before this happened. But after that, things slowed down.
  • Rob Kuntz leaves the project. This was supposed to be a collaboration between the two of them, but he left, then later published his own takes on the levels he did.
  • The project massively slows down. Instead of any castle levels coming out, there's this huge push to expand Yggsburg. This was purely a delaying tactic, and the fans kind of knew this.
  • Gary dies...the center doesn't hold, and the project is cancelled after the second book is published.
In the meantime, for all this talk of developing works, there ARE a few things that were ready to go but just weren't published. Gary worked on something called "The Key of Sand" trilogy, for Lejendary Adventures, a trilogy of two sourcebooks and one adventure that was purely him, was finished before his stroke, and stayed in limbo because of lack of funding on the Hekaforge side to publish them. He also had Lejendary Asterouges, an adaptation of LA for an alternate universe where ships sailed the stars. This stuff is ready to go, so if you're looking at pure Gygax writing, there are better things that CZ. There's also a (non-collectible) card game that TLG might have published, for instance.

I think Jeffrey Talanian could do it. He worked with Gary during his last years on Castle Zagyg and groks the spirit of AD&D. He also writes better High Gygaxian than Gary.

Without judging the writer--if people believe there is a writer who "does Gygax better than Gygax"--well, what's the point? Is this about reading Gary's unpublished writing or just using Gary as a marketing device?

But there's the rub. More people just wanted to see Gary write for D&D than Gary write other games, or get the lore from Greyhawk as best as they can.
 
I wonder if Gary's second edition AD&D notes could be published under the OGL or if he had to surrender them to old TSR.
 
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