The Electric Vehicles Thread

[Raleel]

Hi, if you are EV curious, feel free to ask me stuff. I have owned one for the last almost-four years now and have used it for road trips and daily driver. I have two friends who have owned them or own them, have given countless test drives and been responsible for some buying them.

I do not argue the environmental benefits. Those are well researched already, and it's quite clear, but I don't think it's a good argument for most folks. It's very abstract, and if you are willing to bend for the environmental argument, you are likely not needing to ask questions

 

[Dyrnwyn]

1. What MSRP did you pay for yours, and did you get any particular rebates?

2. How do you usually charge your EV?

3. You mentioned you have friends that "have owned" them -- if they no longer do, what were their reasons?

 

[Fenris-77]

Hi, if you are EV curious,

You make it sound like a lifestyle choice.

 

[Raleel]

1. What MSRP did you pay for yours, and did you get any particular rebates?

I got the full rebate with mine, so $7500 off.

2. How do you usually charge your EV?

For the first 3 years, I charged off a wall socket. That got me about 5 miles of range an hour. Charge over night, and it was plenty. That was enough for my commute on a daily basis as well as weekend trips that were planned.

after a few experiences that irritated me with weekend trips leaving me with sub 15%, I decided I wanted a faster charge apparatus at home. I could easily overcome it, but it was psychological and it was a relatively low outlay - $350 for an electrician running one 2’ from the breaker box in the garage. Now I run off of a nema 14-50 outlet and charge at about 7x the speed.

3. You mentioned you have friends that "have owned" them -- if they no longer do, what were their reasons?

The one who does not currently had a leaf on lease and made the mistake of having a third child. This made the desire for the larger vehicle strong. However, he mentioned today he still regrets selling it because his lease for the car after that just ended and he bought it. Good deal, but he really liked the utilitarian aspect of the leaf. he would go back to it in a heart beat because of very low maintenance and lifetime cost.

Another friend has a leaf and he loves it. He is also utilitarian in his car tastes. Third friend had one, but it finally broke down and he got a used model s. A fourth friend has a model 3 performance that replaced his Porsche Boxster. He has different needs

mine replaced a Mini Cooper S. I loved the mini but the 3 is a better car

 

[Raleel]

You make it sound like a lifestyle choice.

Currently it kind of is. There is not the same infrastructure as gas cars so there is some planning overhead on some trips. Up until last year I couldn’t make it from my house to mt rainier and back without a 3 hour stop half way back. Now it’s a 15 minute one.

that having been said, I’ve taken it from WA to South Dakota and from WA to AZ/NM/CO/WY/ID and back.

 

[Raleel]

Demand is one thing, but the main issue with EVs as a solution is that a lot of people simply cannot afford to replace their current vehicles even if they can get a hold of an EV. They are going to have to significantly come down in cost (or be generously subsidized) before that becomes a viable solution. Even the cheapest EV after rebates is more than a lot of used ICE cars, and the lowest-end new ICE cars too.

Then there's charging logistics -- I live in an apartment building with 200 units and zero chargers. There's only one charging station within a mile of my home, and four more within five miles. I'm talking the basic parking lot chargers here. So the infrastructure just isn't there yet either, at least not everywhere; home charging is not an option for a lot of people.

Going to bring these over here.

you are absolutely right on these points.

My 3 is quite pricey, though I will point out that my cost of ownership is markedly lower. Now, that math doesn’t work for every part of the country by any means - I have extremely cheap power and very expensive gas, so it makes lots of sense here in southern Washington. My savings is enough to match my wife’s old fusion hybrid, despite the cost of the car being 14k less over the life of the car. This is a hard sell to folks for a number of reasons.

I’m actually opposed to the rebates as we have structured them. Not that I dislike that we are supporting EVs but rather they immediately get tacked onto the price of the car. This is incredibly frustrating because it makes them appear much more expensive. To add onto it, car companies outside of a few essentially milked them for as long as they could with models that had very limited production. This makes it so it is not easy to own

As for infrastructure, I agree. I would be pretty happy with my tax dollars supporting EV infrastructure in apartment complexes where I do not charge, just because I know it’s a serious issue. I have charging at work that is an incredible deal ($1 flat, regardless of amount, j1772), but not everyone has that either. Charging is virtually impossible to be a money maker by itself. Like gas stations, you need something else there to make any money on it. Thus, I would just assume we Incentivize it some other way or socialize it.

 

[Dyrnwyn]

Personally, I'm in a situation where I need a car, but drive little enough (and can combine trips) where the cost of gas and annual maintenance aren't major expenses for me (the car itself was paid off a while ago, and was about $15K new). Even pre-pandemic, I was only putting on 7-8K miles per year on my vehicle, which gets about 30 MPG on average. At only 50K miles, I'm in no hurry to upgrade and take on a car payment again.

Now, if I were in a position to buy a $30K+ vehicle. and had a place to charge it -- yeah, I'd be looking at an electric, because as you noted, the lower annual cost adds up over time.

 

[Raleel]

Personally, I'm in a situation where I need a car, but drive little enough (and can combine trips) where the cost of gas and annual maintenance aren't major expenses for me (the car itself was paid off a while ago, and was about $15K new). Even pre-pandemic, I was only putting on 7-8K miles per year on my vehicle, which gets about 30 MPG on average. At only 50K miles, I'm in no hurry to upgrade and take on a car payment again.

Now, if I were in a position to buy a $30K+ vehicle. and had a place to charge it -- yeah, I'd be looking at an electric, because as you noted, the lower annual cost adds up over time.

yea, it's really hard to beat paid off. You have to be in it for a different reason at that point.

Your use case is exactly the use case that my friends have leafs. Low mileage, etc. They also have places to charge, so less of an issue there. Not that I am suggesting it per se, but I do know that people talk their land lords into installing EV chargers or outlets (which, really, works the best in my mind) as an investment.

at 7500 miles, that's about $135 in my electricity in my car (7500 miles * 250 wh/mile / 1000 w/kw * 0.0717 dollars/kwh). 35 mpg car is looking at $857. It's a big chunk, but it's coming back so slow ($700/year, about $59/month) it makes it very hard to justify at that level of usage. 3500 over a 5 year loan is much less than the markup.

 

[Godfather Punk]

(Subscribed. Placeholder until I get to a real keyboard and screen)

 

[Raleel]

Here are my charge stats for the last 30 days. Not as much driving as I have done previously but there is a bit in there.


straight from the app. This matches my manual calculations of these things fairly close, though some differences based on local gas prices vs average. This is mostly my commute (25 miles, sometimes out to lunch and back).

 

[Bunch]

Do they have setups that let you use your car battery as a power source for your home when the power goes out?

 

[Raleel]

Yes. Not on teslas but most of the others have them now. V2G is what you are looking for. Or V2H

 

[Imaginos]

I’ve been debating it. My Rogue is paid off in another month or 2. Rumor is my level at work may start getting a car allowance instead of comp hours starting April or soon after.

If that happens, I may lease the Leaf or the upcoming Ariya. But I’d have to get a 240v outlet set up in the garage.

 

[Toadmaster]

We are not a point where EV works for us, but I can see there may be a time in the future where it will. I am impressed with how they have been developing.

I actually like the idea of a small EV for our local driving, but what you paid after the rebate for the Tesla is nearly 2x what we paid for both our cars combined. Even a Leaf is still around $30,000 after rebate. We don't drive enough on a regular basis to make the savings add up and the more affordable (Leaf, Bolt) are not terribly child friendly. The EVs that would best fit our needs are not remotely in our budget.
Maybe in 10 years when the youngest can drive himself, and the prices have (hopefully) come closer to "regular" cars.

My Dad's GF bought a Leaf early on, and my Dad has a Versa which is essentially a conventionally powered Leaf. It works well for them, they use her car for local trips within its range, and his car for longer drives.

 

[Raleel]

If that happens, I may lease the Leaf or the upcoming Ariya. But I’d have to get a 240v outlet set up in the garage.

You really only need a 240v if you plan on it as a main driver. Even then, it's a convenience thing in some cases (mine, for example). Cost of the 240 varies wildly based on position in the garage.

I actually like the idea of a small EV for our local driving, but what you paid after the rebate for the Tesla is nearly 2x what we paid for both our cars combined. Even a Leaf is still around $30,000 after rebate. We don't drive enough on a regular basis to make the savings add up and the more affordable (Leaf, Bolt) are not terribly child friendly. The EVs that would best fit our needs are not remotely in our budget.

15k vehicles are in a different space entirely. At that price point, gas can't be beat in any reasonable timeframe without a tax credit.
https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/ can help you do that math. You can get a leaf for $19,900 after rebate. That makes it comparable to a versa, even over the life of the vehicle. While it could be a family car, it's not really.

The Tesla is near 1.5x our Fusion in 2013 new (and it was 49 after rebate). After rebate, I need to make up 13k in gas and maintenance over 5 years for it to break even with the fusion - that works out to about 20k miles worth of gas. While that is a little high for many people, it is not high for us. We like our road trips.

The fusion is right at the average new car price when it was new, and it crossed over 40k last summer and is now up at 47k (which, granted, is inflated). Kia EV6s go for 41 before rebate. Hyundai Ioniq's are going for 43.6 before rebate as well. Hyundai Kona's are going for 34k before rebate. The USED car market for EVs is pretty tight, but they are out there. Everything is broken in the used market. But there are not enough models yet and not enough supply to drive down the prices.

Short of it, looking at a tesla and saying "this is a local driving car" is not really a good comparison. the 20k leaf? absolutely. The leaf is a shorter range subcompact. The leaf is a "second car" for many people, including my friends. The tesla is a mid sized family sedan and I got it to be a primary driver.

Ultimately, it's the cost of ownership that makes it worthwhile financially. I have a spreadsheet you can copy and use to do the math for yourself. copy an EV column to do an EV, copy a gas column to do a gas car. Make sure to put the rebate in as a negative. You can find which cars are available for rebates here. Maintenance on my car as been wiper fluid, 1 12v Battery, and tires. That's it.

One topic that sometimes comes up is range. If folks are worried about range and charging, that's quite understandable. A PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) meets in the middle. normally they have a 30-40 mile range battery and a plug. you do your daily drive on battery, plug in every night. Acts just like an EV. On road trips, it tops off the battery with the gas motor as you are driving. the Rav4 Prime, the Tucson PHEV, and a few others are in this space.

 

[Kilted Rob]

For me the lack of infrastructure in my region and cost for an AWD/4WD EV (plus lack of options) kept me from pursuing an EV further when I purchased my current vehicle.

edited to add:
a hybrid doesn't get that much greater mpg on the highway. I average 39 mpg highway vs the 41 mpg of a hybrid Rav4. My combined mpg on winter blend is 34 mpg and summer blend is 37 mpg. The price difference between my gas Rav4 and the low end hybrid was 9k, that's a big chunk more to pay for minimal gains.

A RAV4 Prime even with rebates would have been 14k more.

I commute 60 miles a day round trip, with most it being highway driving.

 

[Imaginos]

You really only need a 240v if you plan on it as a main driver. Even then, it's a convenience thing in some cases (mine, for example). Cost of the 240 varies wildly based on position in the garage.

Yeah, it would be the runabout. My parents live ~20 miles away. A Sunday gets my most driving, to church then the parents then home (sometimes a few stops). Less than 60 miles round trip.

Downside would be having to get a garage door opener installed on one of my other bays (3 car garage). But would be for most running that happens with the Rogue being used for any longer trips.

 

[Raleel]

the lack of infrastructure in my region

this is a big issue. more of an issue than some give it credit for. Less being about "there must be a charger near my house" (though, read above, it's important for apartment dwellers), and more that the current infrastructure is on major highways and is not on backroads. That having been said, I can get almost everywhere in WA and back on fast chargers alone. Some parts of the country don't have it as well

I average 39 mpg highway

Congrats, you are beating the EPA rating by quite a chunk! You sound like a pretty careful driver. I would figure if you can beat the EPA estimate by >10%, you can probably pull 45 with the hybrid. However, depending on your neck of the woods (see gas prices above), it would take a while to cover that.

base model non-hybrid is 26.5, base model PHEV prime is 39.8k. -7.5k for rebate is 32.3k. difference of 5.8k. the spreadsheet up there would help, but the mpge on the prime is 94, and you'd get 1/2-2/3 of that on purely electric.

 

[Kilted Rob]

this is a big issue. more of an issue than some give it credit for. Less being about "there must be a charger near my house" (though, read above, it's important for apartment dwellers), and more that the current infrastructure is on major highways and is not on backroads. That having been said, I can get almost everywhere in WA and back on fast chargers alone. Some parts of the country don't have it as well

Congrats, you are beating the EPA rating by quite a chunk! You sound like a pretty careful driver. I would figure if you can beat the EPA estimate by >10%, you can probably pull 45 with the hybrid. However, depending on your neck of the woods (see gas prices above), it would take a while to cover that.

base model non-hybrid is 26.5, base model PHEV prime is 39.8k. -7.5k for rebate is 32.3k. difference of 5.8k. the spreadsheet up there would help, but the mpge on the prime is 94, and you'd get 1/2-2/3 of that on purely electric.

I live in an apartment and the highway I drive, while a main route to the coast, does not have the infrastructure at all.

I wouldn't say I am a careful driver, I just don't drive like I am Parnelli Jones and running the Indy 500. On a road trip to New Mexico and back this last summer I was averaging 41 MPG and cruising around 70-75mph.

I've found that Toyota tends to under estimate their highway mpg and over estimate the city mpg on what is posted. I had a 2006 Corolla that would get 50mpg with the back seat and trunk fully loaded versus empty.

The pricing with rebates now are better than in 2020 when I got my RAV4.The only Prime we could find available was 14k more after rebates and that wasn't even fully loaded. We couldn't find any base models of either the Prime or Hybrid at the time. I was lucky to get what I ended up going with. Paid just under 25K when all said and done.

 

[Toadmaster]

You really only need a 240v if you plan on it as a main driver. Even then, it's a convenience thing in some cases (mine, for example). Cost of the 240 varies wildly based on position in the garage.


15k vehicles are in a different space entirely. At that price point, gas can't be beat in any reasonable timeframe without a tax credit.
https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/ can help you do that math. You can get a leaf for $19,900 after rebate. That makes it comparable to a versa, even over the life of the vehicle. While it could be a family car, it's not really.

The Tesla is near 1.5x our Fusion in 2013 new (and it was 49 after rebate). After rebate, I need to make up 13k in gas and maintenance over 5 years for it to break even with the fusion - that works out to about 20k miles worth of gas. While that is a little high for many people, it is not high for us. We like our road trips.

The fusion is right at the average new car price when it was new, and it crossed over 40k last summer and is now up at 47k (which, granted, is inflated). Kia EV6s go for 41 before rebate. Hyundai Ioniq's are going for 43.6 before rebate as well. Hyundai Kona's are going for 34k before rebate. The USED car market for EVs is pretty tight, but they are out there. Everything is broken in the used market. But there are not enough models yet and not enough supply to drive down the prices.

Short of it, looking at a tesla and saying "this is a local driving car" is not really a good comparison. the 20k leaf? absolutely. The leaf is a shorter range subcompact. The leaf is a "second car" for many people, including my friends. The tesla is a mid sized family sedan and I got it to be a primary driver.

Ultimately, it's the cost of ownership that makes it worthwhile financially. I have a spreadsheet you can copy and use to do the math for yourself. copy an EV column to do an EV, copy a gas column to do a gas car. Make sure to put the rebate in as a negative. You can find which cars are available for rebates here. Maintenance on my car as been wiper fluid, 1 12v Battery, and tires. That's it.

One topic that sometimes comes up is range. If folks are worried about range and charging, that's quite understandable. A PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) meets in the middle. normally they have a 30-40 mile range battery and a plug. you do your daily drive on battery, plug in every night. Acts just like an EV. On road trips, it tops off the battery with the gas motor as you are driving. the Rav4 Prime, the Tucson PHEV, and a few others are in this space.

The lack of a good used market for hybrids and EVs is a bigger issue than I think gets much attention. The used market isn't that great for either, as they only account for about 2% of sales and still lots of questions about battery life remaining on a used EV or hybrid. This will change though as the tech is still quite new, about 20 years on the hybrids and 10 on EVs. The numbers will increase as will their longevity, which from what I've read is far better than even the optimistic projections predicted.

I've bought one new car in my life and will not buy another. I always look for something in the 3-5 year range after the worst depreciation has passed, but an age where there are still a lot of practically new cars are available. We currently have a Subaru Forester and Toyota Tundra, so any EV remotely comparable is off the charts, but hybrid prices have come down quite a bit. A RAV4 hybrid isn't a whole lot more new (about $5000 or 20%) than a gas Forester. Three years ago I wouldn't even consider a used hybrid if we found one, but in a few years that could be a very different situation.

It takes time to see where problems occur with used cars, and I suspect now that the tech is maturing the main issues with used EVs and Hybrids will mostly be in the non-drive train tech shared with gas cars (computer modules, back up cameras, stereo systems etc) rather than the batteries which are still a bit of an unknown, but seem to be doing much better than early projections.


Also a lot of questions about future road taxes and such. California has been dancing around the topic occasionally suggesting future changes that will be unfriendly towards EVs and solar power. That balance of tax collection vs green policies. If they are being discussed here, I'm sure other states are thinking about it as well. It is mostly a when, as eventually they are going to want the taxes they are losing from gas.

 

[Raleel]

The pricing with rebates now are better than in 2020 when I got my RAV4.The only Prime we could find available was 14k more after rebates and that wasn't even fully loaded. We couldn't find any base models of either the Prime or Hybrid at the time. I was lucky to get what I ended up going with. Paid just under 25K when all said and done.

Finding a car right now is a serious issue, and dealers are marking up. We found our most recent car (a highlander hybrid) at MSRP and I felt good about it. Virtually everything else was 5k more than that.

what you are seeing in hybrid and ev prices is particularly why I hate the incentive structure. They make them look a lot more expensive, but then you get some money back. But the expectation is that it should be at the gas version price and then an incentive. And ultimately, none of that money really goes to the owner. It goes to the manufacturer because they raise prices, and none of the money goes to those who really are hurt most by gas prices and gas taxes.

Unfortunately I don’t think our legislators could possibly target this appropriately. They don’t know how to manipulate any other levers. so we are stuck with a dumb model.

The lack of a good used market for hybrids and EVs is a bigger issue than I think gets much attention. The used market isn't that great for either, as they only account for about 2% of sales and still lots of questions about battery life remaining on a used EV or hybrid.

It’s a huge issue. Simply huge. And the tech is evolving so rapidly. My 2018 model 3 is a better car in every way (save size, which maybe better maybe not) than the first Tesla I drove back in 2013 (a model s p85D). the cars Latin longer doesn’t help either!

Three years ago I wouldn't even consider a used hybrid if we found one, but in a few years that could be a very different situation.

it’s changed. Used hybrids are quite solid now
essentially, anything newer than about 2013 is going to be solid. There has been a lot of battery tech improvements.

It takes time to see where problems occur with used cars, and I suspect now that the tech is maturing the main issues with used EVs and Hybrids will mostly be in the non-drive train tech shared with gas cars (computer modules, back up cameras, stereo systems etc) rather than the batteries which are still a bit of an unknown, but seem to be doing much better than early projections.

battery life is showing good, but sometimes inconsistent. there are folks collecting data on the

There are a lot of factors and it can be hard to tell things. Imagine your gas tank shrinking in cold. That’s sort of what it is like with an ev. The battery is not as good in the cold. EVs are also so damn efficient, But if you do something to that (tow, cold, high speed) you really see the hit.

Also a lot of questions about future road taxes and such. California has been dancing around the topic occasionally suggesting future changes that will be unfriendly towards EVs and solar power. That balance of tax collection vs green policies. If they are being discussed here, I'm sure other states are thinking about it as well. It is mostly a when, as eventually they are going to want the taxes they are losing from gas.

WA implemented an ev tax to cover the lack of a gas tax. I’m not super happy with the structure of it, though mostly because the assumptions they put into it are bad. It’s a compromise situation. They would need gps in the cars to really track it, and they don’t want to for a number of reasons. They are looking to change it to mileage inspection every couple of years, which I don’t think i horrible. If they factor in the weight of the vehicle (rather than a weight category) I think it would probably be pretty good, even if EVs tend to be heavy. They are nothing compared to semis, which do the vast majority of damage.

many ev owners are quite unhappy with ev taxes. I tend to think they are arguing over very small amounts of money, especially since many of them are driving quite expensive and new cars. As with most things, if it is not better for them in every conceivable way immediately, it’s completely wrong and they are being put upon

 

[xanther]

I've a friend who couples their EV with solar. Basically they get free electricity (the extra they sell in the summer covers the winter) and free commuting and errands. as the range is about 40 miles and they can easily charge at home. And this all in New England not a region know for prime solar.

Now if a motorhead, the Tesla Roadster is scary fast, better acceleration then Ferrari's I've driven, and as good as motorcyles have had. More so it is eerily "quite."

 

[Raleel]

Now if a motorhead, the Tesla Roadster is scary fast, better acceleration then Ferrari's I've driven, and as good as motorcyles have had. More so it is eerily "quite."

I’ve never once faced a motorcycle off the line. I have no idea what you mean. Teslas are stately family saloons

 

[Toadmaster]

Finding a car right now is a serious issue, and dealers are marking up. We found our most recent car (a highlander hybrid) at MSRP and I felt good about it. Virtually everything else was 5k more than that.

what you are seeing in hybrid and ev prices is particularly why I hate the incentive structure. They make them look a lot more expensive, but then you get some money back. But the expectation is that it should be at the gas version price and then an incentive. And ultimately, none of that money really goes to the owner. It goes to the manufacturer because they raise prices, and none of the money goes to those who really are hurt most by gas prices and gas taxes.

Unfortunately I don’t think our legislators could possibly target this appropriately. They don’t know how to manipulate any other levers. so we are stuck with a dumb model.



It’s a huge issue. Simply huge. And the tech is evolving so rapidly. My 2018 model 3 is a better car in every way (save size, which maybe better maybe not) than the first Tesla I drove back in 2013 (a model s p85D). the cars Latin longer doesn’t help either!



it’s changed. Used hybrids are quite solid now
essentially, anything newer than about 2013 is going to be solid. There has been a lot of battery tech improvements.



battery life is showing good, but sometimes inconsistent. there are folks collecting data on the

There are a lot of factors and it can be hard to tell things. Imagine your gas tank shrinking in cold. That’s sort of what it is like with an ev. The battery is not as good in the cold. EVs are also so damn efficient, But if you do something to that (tow, cold, high speed) you really see the hit.

WA implemented an ev tax to cover the lack of a gas tax. I’m not super happy with the structure of it, though mostly because the assumptions they put into it are bad. It’s a compromise situation. They would need gps in the cars to really track it, and they don’t want to for a number of reasons. They are looking to change it to mileage inspection every couple of years, which I don’t think i horrible. If they factor in the weight of the vehicle (rather than a weight category) I think it would probably be pretty good, even if EVs tend to be heavy. They are nothing compared to semis, which do the vast majority of damage.

many ev owners are quite unhappy with ev taxes. I tend to think they are arguing over very small amounts of money, especially since many of them are driving quite expensive and new cars. As with most things, if it is not better for them in every conceivable way immediately, it’s completely wrong and they are being put upon

Cars are nuts right now, so happy I'm not in the market (fingers crossed), I keep getting emails from the Subaru dealer trying to get us to trade in our current car for something else. Crazy thing is we could probably pretty much get back what we paid for it in 2018, but I know we would lose on the replacement side.

We were last car shopping in early 2018 so a lot of the used EV and hybrid info out there was biased towards those early models.

Hybrid at this point is almost a mainstream option, a bit more money but if you are not stuck on one brand (or you like Toyotas, as I do) there is a wide range of options from tiny commuter to SUV, pickups being the only thing not really available. I suspect the weight of batteries becomes an issue offsetting cargo capacity. Considering how many buy pickups that will never come close to hauling their capacity (don't even get me started on 5 foot pickup beds ) it still seems an odd exclusion. Supposedly Honda is considering a hybrid Ridgeline, which for that market will probably sell well. I use my truck as a truck too much to consider anything less than a 6-1/2' bed but I miss my Tacoma's 26mpg, the Tundra is a really nice truck but it sure does like the gas.

We had a Ford Escape Hybrid at work, that I really liked borrowing. Unfortunately they were also the most expensive vehicles in the fleet based on repairs or I would have considered looking for one. About 100 vehicles on the forest, mostly pickups and SUVs, I think we had 3 or 4 of the Escapes, 2010-12-ish.

The tax issue is a big concern to me. I don't mind paying a tax but I want to know what it is going to be. I tend to keep cars for 10+ years, so a change in tax will follow me for some time. One of the options I've seen put out there is tacking it onto the registration which could result in several hundred dollars to $1000+ on top of the existing. I can see why that would upset people if your plan was the EV would pay for itself in X years based on gas savings, then tacking on an extra $1500 year (assuming many who bought an EV for cost reasons commutes and puts on the miles) for road taxes could really mess with your math. The easiest and most fair option to me would simply be to base it on actual mileage submitted with the registration. This could easily be done on an honor system with random inspections or a physical inspection every other year like smog to keep people honest. Financially that would be similar to the taxes on gas, but the lump sum effect would make some feel like they were paying more since their registration would probably be at least double that of a gas car, while the gas car nickels and dimes the cost every time they fill up so they feel it less.

Anytime people don't have to pay and then they have to start paying they think they are being unfairly taxed. Look at the outcry over sales tax on mail order and online sales. Admittedly that is systemically a mess making sellers be responsible for thousands of jurisdictions tax rates (basing it on the sellers end would make sense), but really surprising that it took so long to happen.


I also am capable of doing a lot of my own maintenance / repair and since I hate electrical work hybrid or EV means I won't be doing much. Good that they are fairly maintenance free, but still a bit unnerving to have no clue if something goes wrong.
Much is made of the low maintenance aspect of hybrids and EVs but reality is any decent modern car is almost maintenance free these days. Other than oil and filter changes most new cars require no major service before 100,000 miles, which is a huge leap forward. Older cars required far more regular maintenance, following the service guidelines even in the 80s and 90s many cars would have been in for major service every 20,000 miles and 100,000 miles was considered pretty good life expectancy for many 80s cars (200,000 being expected by the late 90s). I bought the Tundra with 200,000 miles without a second thought, I've owned several Toyotas and 200,000 miles is just getting broken in.

 

[Brock Savage]

I've bought one new car in my life and will not buy another. I always look for something in the 3-5 year range after the worst depreciation has passed, but an age where there are still a lot of practically new cars are available.

This is what I do. Right now we have no need for a second car and plan to drive our Honda until the wheels fall off. It seems like the best decision from both an ecological and fiscal standpoint. At 100,000 miles, it still has a long way to go.

I live in Southern California so supporting infrastructure isn't a big consideration for me when it comes to EV. Unfortunately, unanswered questions about the reliability, value, and longevity of used EVs are a deal breaker for me at the time of writing. I am hoping things change

 

[Toadmaster]

This is what I do. Right now we have no need for a second car and plan to drive our Honda until the wheels fall off. It seems like the best decision from both an ecological and fiscal standpoint. At 100,000 miles, it still has a long way to go.

I live in Southern California so supporting infrastructure isn't a big consideration for me when it comes to EV. Unfortunately, unanswered questions about the reliability, value, and longevity of used EVs are a deal breaker for me at the time of writing. I am hoping things change

Yeah if you are at 100,000 miles now you have a lot of time before the wheels come off. I've never owned a Honda but there have been several in the family and most were replaced following an accident, not because they wore out.
We tend to do the same, the Subaru replaced a 22 year old Suzuki Sidekick that literally had the doors falling off. The Tundra replaced an 18 year old Tacoma with 300,000 miles. I fully expected the Tacoma to make it to 400,000+ but a driver on the wrong side of the road took care of that or I'd still be driving it.

I think in 5 years EV or Hybrid won't even be a concern except for the most extreme they can have my gas nozzle when they pry it out of my cold dead fingers type. Batteries have been the main sticking point and that seems to be pretty well ironed out and will only get better.

 

[ffilz]

Lots of stuff to think about as we get closer and closer to needing a new car.

Most of our driving is 20 mile or less round trips but we do several 180 mile round trips to the beach. I'm not sure what the charging situation in Cannon Beach Oregon is, but we usually park right next to a window on the unit we use most of the time, so worst case we could slow charge over night by running an extension cord out the window...

Our electric panel is about 5 feet from the back of the car in the garage, so adding a 240 charging circuit would not be very expensive.

With the traveling we do, if we really took a longer trip that would be impractical with an EV, I might just rent a vehicle.

We do live on a hill so AWD would be a must for us. Plus if we ever do decide to actually try and go to the beach in winter weather... This year we bailed out of going for New Years Eve though it turned out the roads were clear on the days we would have been driving, and with AWD we would have got through just fine... We have AWD because of a winter weather trip to the beach many years ago which we got through the snow just fine (Saturn wagon with front wheel drive) though the trip took 4 hours but we did play slalom once we were out of the mountains when we hit a patch of ice at speed.

p.s. we have anywhere from 0 to 5 years or more left on our 2008 Honda CRV...

 

[Toadmaster]

With the traveling we do, if we really took a longer trip that would be impractical with an EV, I might just rent a vehicle.

This is an often overlooked option. Renting a car can be fairly inexpensive. After my truck got wrecked I drove an old Volvo for a couple of years until we got the Tundra. I just tried to combine my truck tasks and then rented a pick up truck from U-Haul for the day. A little inconvenient but with gas it usually cost me less than $50.

My wife and I have been talking about driving across the country to visit her sister in Virginia. If we do we will probably rent a car just to keep from putting 6000 miles on our car, plus it gives us the option of flying back. We've rented cars for trips a couple times with our older cars because the Volvo had no working A/C and the Suzuki was kind of cramped for long trips with luggage. We were able to get week long rentals with unlimited miles for a couple hundred dollars, mid size sedan.

 

[Raleel]

For the road-trips, PlugShare.com and abetted route planner.com have your back. The former has all of the plug locations from large to small. It also has search by feature which is handy. The latter has better route planning (duh). I’ve used both extensively to see about the possibilities on trips.

I’ve never needed to rent a car for a trip yet. But we have two cars I suppose. Still, there are very few places I find sketchy to actually get to. None I can think of off the top of my head with a Tesla with an adapter. There are not many that are bad with the ones that use CCSv1. Walmarts all over the country have chargers

I still won’t recommend towing. It’s not there yet. You need a lot of battery to make it viable. Like 150kw (twice mine)

 

[Imaginos]

Not going to lie. Saw the VW electric bus photos today. Looks sweet and definitely tempting, but price point is still north of where I want to be on a vehicle. That and it’s hard to support the competition.

 

[Raleel]

Saw it too, but those are getting quite pricey. I can’t argue a minivan that pushes 100k

 

[Godfather Punk]

As my employer forces us to take a lease car (at one of their daughter companies), and as they want to signal how Green they are, I'm going for an EV this time.

The Hybrid didn't do it for me, neither fish nor fowl.

In the past weeks I tried a couple of models (Mercedes EQA, Audi Q4, Mini Cooper Electric, VW ID3, Hyundai Ioniq) but in the end decided to get a Volvo XC40 Recharge. It looks like the only advantage of the Twin engine would I get my speeding tickets faster, so Single engine.
Why that car? Because the dealer/workshop is in my street, and because the waiting list is 'only' 8 months vs. over a year or 18 months for some of the other brands. And also because I had the most fun driving it.

It's gonna be a change. Preparing (loading) for longer drives instead of just filling her up before I hit the highways. Locating loadspots beforehand. Getting used to an automatic, after 35+ years of stick driving. Adjusting my driving style to a car double the weight. But there's also lots of fun extras like the adaptive cruise control and the 360° parking cameras. Now I just have to decide a colour, and then the long wait can begin.

 

[Raleel]

In the past weeks I tried a couple of models (Mercedes EQA, Audi Q4, Mini Cooper Electric, VW ID3, Hyundai Ioniq) but in the end decided to get a Volvo XC40 Recharge. It looks like the only advantage of the Twin engine would I get my speeding tickets faster, so Single engine.

the mini has a tiny tiny range. if you do any road trips, it becomes an issue. I really like the Ioniq. I've not tried the XC40, but hear a lot of good things about it. the single motor version is quite a bit more efficient, having 12% less battery (and weight) and getting 2 more miles of range. no AWD but that's not an issue for everyone for sure.

Why that car? Because the dealer/workshop is in my street, and because the waiting list is 'only' 8 months vs. over a year or 18 months for some of the other brands. And also because I had the most fun driving it.

hah, yes, 8 months is a decent wait time currently. many are much longer.

Preparing (loading) for longer drives instead of just filling her up before I hit the highways. Locating loadspots beforehand.

ABRP

ABetterRouteplanner is the world's most popular consumer EV routeplanner - both for beginner and experienced EV drivers. And of course for anyone curious about EVs.

abetterrouteplanner.com

PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge

Find EV charging stations with PlugShare, the most complete map of electric vehicle charging stations in the world!Charging tips reviews and photos from the EV community.

www.plugshare.com

both of these, but especially ABRP, have been invaluable for me. There will be a period where you feel anxious about it, but eventually it goes away.

Getting used to an automatic, after 35+ years of stick driving. Adjusting my driving style to a car double the weight. But there's also lots of fun extras like the adaptive cruise control and the 360° parking cameras. Now I just have to decide a colour, and then the long wait can begin.

speaking as a person who was in a similar boat, i got over it very quickly. I came from a mini cooper S and like my sporty nimble cars. my 3 handles quite well.

 

[Godfather Punk]

the mini has a tiny tiny range.

It also has a tiny interior (I am overweight) and is a bit too low for my 90y+ parents to get in and out.

I've not tried the XC40, but hear a lot of good things about it. the single motor version is quite a bit more efficient, having 12% less battery (and weight) and getting 2 more miles of range.

Yeah, the Audi, on paper, boasts almost 500km, but I think the 380km Volvo advertises should be sufficient for most of my needs.

both of these, but especially ABRP, have been invaluable for me.

Bookmarked! Thanks!
If you open ABRP on Belgium, you will see what a wasteland this is for public EV loading, compared to Germany or the Netherlands. I think there are more loading sites in Winnipeg or Columbus OH ...
And then if you find a spot, just hope there isn't a queue of other cars waiting their turn. But it is indeed a great tool...

Edit: oh, I see PlugShare shows a LOT more Charging stations.

There will be a period where you feel anxious about it, but eventually it goes away.

Only 8 stops if I want to spend the weekend in Krakow or Barcelona... I'm gonna miss the +1200km range of my diesel.

 

[Godfather Punk]

It has arrived! Exactly 8 months after the leasing company wasted 2 months ordering it.
Another reason I chose this car, and why the wait time was relatively short, is it's produced in Belgium! Yay, local economy boost!

And also because I had the most fun driving it.

Well, while that's still true, it will take some time to adjust to the new car size, the different turn radius (it took me 3 full minutes to back the car into my garage (because I probably didn't set the rear view mirrors quite right, and the 360° camera is less helpfull than I anticipated; also this monster feels Huge and I'm still not accustomed to the no-engine-sound that indicates if I'm moving). I'm taking it for a spin tonight...

Oh, and I loathe the automatic gear shift that you need to pull back to Drive, and push forward to Reverse. Who invented that?

 

[Raleel]

It’s definitely an adjustment for the first week or so. I was driving mine back from the deal over 300km away and quite comfortably sped 30km/h past the speed limit without realizing it due to a lack of engine noise. Funny the stuff that crops up thst you don’t think about at all.

 

[Endless Flight]

I’ve been switching all my stuff in the garage from gas to electric. Next year I might buy an electric snow blower and am definitely getting an electric lawn mower for the other house. The last thing will be a car.

 

[Raleel]

I’ve been switching all my stuff in the garage from gas to electric. Next year I might buy an electric snow blower and am definitely getting an electric lawn mower for the other house. The last thing will be a car.

let my experience educate you - get the battery operated one. I did the corded snowblower for several winters and battery is much better, I did the corded lawn mower for several years and it was super annoying.

 

[Endless Flight]

let my experience educate you - get the battery operated one. I did the corded snowblower for several winters and battery is much better, I did the corded lawn mower for several years and it was super annoying.

Yeah I’m gonna get an Ego brand. I just bought a chainsaw that’s got a 56v battery.

 

[deflagratio]

Leaf owner Jumping in. I got a basically new CPO 2018 (1400 miles) back in 2021 for $23k. Absolute blast of a car for around town driving. Originally was using a 110 outlet but got level 2 charging at the new house which was a real game changer. Level 1 worked ok as long as we planned out trips across town. But level 2 means the thing can go from zero to 100% in 5 hours. Normally only run the charging for 1-3 hours depending on the next days driving and how far below 50% it is. There are only 2 real problems with the leaf. Running the heat will drain the battery fast (but not if you use heated seats and steering wheel) and the fact that the battery is not actively cooled. The leave already has short range, but you are lucky to get 2 level 3 charges without overheating. I did a roadtrip from Virginia to South Carolina in peak summer. Took the car days for the battery to really cool down. Had to get a hotel an hour from my destination because it was charging so slow to protect itself. Had to grab a hotel halfway back to Virginia but at least I had planned for that stop. On the topic of charging, the Leaf using CHAdeMO ports for level 3 charging. It's common to find them at most charging stations on the eastern seaboard, but there is normally only one or 2 in a sea of CSS chargers. Where the Leaf truly shines is as an around town car where you have steady access to level 2 charging at home or at work.
Still love the car. That instant acceleration is amazing. E-pedal is fantastic for stop and go traffic, it has physical buttons for climate control. There's a strong community for the car and there's even an independent app that can use an OBD scanner to report the state of individual battery cells if you are looking to buy a used leaf. There's also a company in New Zealand working on a replacement battery that is actively cooled and can be installed in older leaf's. Replacement batteries are tough to find.