The Lesser Known TSR Games

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Gabriel

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Over in the Gangbusters B/X topic, I sort of went off on a tangent of my personal ranking of how memorable the various TSR RPGs were, with a focus on the TSR not-D&D games. Unsurprisingly, some people found issue with some of my rankings. No biggie.

But there were a few remarks which I found pretty interesting.

Some objected to me placing the Buck Rogers XXVc game above the games I considered at the bottom of the memory hole. Admittedly, I ranked it that high mainly because it tends to come up a lot in discussions about how "TSR was a failure" and the "villainy and witchery" of Lorraine Williams. Even still, I recall a time around 1990 where if you shopped for RPGs the Buck Rogers stuff was just as prevalent as AD&D2e stuff. It was even in the chain bookstores as they were in the process of phasing out their RPG sections. It wasn't just the base set either. It had what felt like a multitude of supplements. Looking back, it basically had about a dozen supplements (including an Axis & Allies style boardgame) which were extremely well distributed and prevalent at the time.

But I do think there was an element of "blink and you'll miss it" with regards to Buck Rogers XXVc. Copyright dates indicate it was supported for a couple of years, but my recollection is that it was on store shelves around 1990 and then just disappeared. This was probably due to the chain bookstores around me giving up on RPGs other than D&D more than anything else.

The followup Buck Rogers High Adventures Cliffhangers is the one that's truly obscure to me. I've never seen it in person. It seems much more of a blink and you'll miss it game, only supported by a single boxed set and supplement in 1993 (the tail end of the XXVc game).

But Buck Rogers XXVc is pretty interesting. It's AD&D2e in space. As I was never too fond of Star Frontiers, I always thought XXVc was the sci-fi/space opera game that TSR should have made in the first place. It's certainly not perfect, and has some stuff that I think should be ironed out, but I think it was a good idea for TSR's space game to be a D&D variant. I would hve been far more hyped for it in 1983 than in 1990. But in retrospect, it's clunky, but good. OSR fans should definitely check it out.

XXVc does have something which I consider a flaw that affects a lot of other TSR stuff around that timeframe, especially box sets. The presentation is very... childish. I don't know how else to describe it. TSR was using a lot of big fonts and very simple art with really bright colors. There were lots of inserts which really didn't add anything. XXVc, Spelljammer, and Dragon Mountain all have this same quality of just having components that look like some kind of warped Little Golden Book. Anyone else get this feeling?

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Someone brought up Top Secret S.I. My recollection of that game was it was one of TSR's least supported games. I recall seeing an early edition of the game in KayBee or Circus World, already opened. I also recall seeing an article in Dragon Magazine which characterized the game not as playing James Bond, but as a very "realistic" game where you played those kinds of operatives that James Bond meets and which die during the course of the movie. Top Secret didn't sound at all interesting at the time.

That was the previous edition. I only recall seeing the S.I. edition once in Waldenbooks. I only ever saw the core box set. It was still shrinked, so I couldn't check it out further. It sat there in the store for years until they removed their RPG section. I never saw any supplements for it. Other than that, I remember seeing the full page cover ads in Dragon. That was about it. I never knew anyone who played it or the earlier version.

When it was mentioned here and said to be far more prevalent and popular than my experience indicated, I got curious and looked it up. I had thought this game was like Boot Hill 3e or Buck Rogers Cliffhangers. I thought it was a case of TSR unceremoniously plunking down the core set and then forgetting about it. Instead, I found out it was much more like XXVc with about a dozen products created in the last couple of years of the 80s. More than that, it was a much broader game than the title would lead me to believe. It wasn't just spies, but it also had material to use the system for pulp, cyberpunk, and mercenaries. One could say it was a system for running Mercenaries, Spies, & Private Eyes. ;)

So I had to find a PDF and check out this system. And...

I don't know what it is, but I found this game extremely accessible and inviting. Normally I need some art to suck me in, and Top Secret S.I. wasn't anywhere near being impressive with art as pieces are sparse and throwaway. Regardless, I found the text very inviting and well written. I think it was about as much a page turner as one could call an RPG rulebook. As I read this, I realized I wanted to give this game a go.

I'm not sure what I would have thought of this game back in 1987-90. In the sense of providing an accessible generic modern action RPG, it seems to be delivering exactly what I was looking for. On the other hand, I've never been too keen on percentile systems. Percentile systems just rub me the wrong way for whatever reason. Plus, at the time when S.I. was new, I was firmly in the grip of mecha gaming fever, as well as diving into the horror pit which was Palladium.

But my opinion right now? It's extremely accessible. It seems fairly versatile. It aligns with my classic game desires. The covers are fairly evocative. I think I like it. I might be a Top Secret convert.

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Anyone else have some thoughts/recollections about some of the more obscure TSR games (not D&D/AD&D)? Hell, maybe even D&D qualifies, because there were some oddball boxed D&D sets that TSR did in the 90s ranging from those giant Heroscape style sets to the beginner set done at the end of the 90s right before the sale to WotC.
 
How about the TSR minigames like They've Invaded Pleasantville and Saga? Actually played Saga, was a bit disappointed. Vikings roaming a map looking for treasure and dodging dragons. I'm sure there were others but I can't remember them all. There were also the AD&D Monster cards at the time.
 
How about the TSR minigames like They've Invaded Pleasantville and Saga? Actually played Saga, was a bit disappointed. Vikings roaming a map looking for treasure and dodging dragons. I'm sure there were others but I can't remember them all. There were also the AD&D Monster cards at the time.

I hadn't really thought of those. So that of course means they qualify! While I was looking for information on Top Secret I ran across mention of some of those minigames.

By the time I was reading Dragon, the minigames weren't really a thing. I was picking up the mag from the mid to late 80s. I don't recall any minigames beyond Dragon Chess in issue 100. I have the Dragon Magazine archive, but since the minigames weren't anything I could just remove from the middle of the magazine and play, I can't say I ever gave them much attention in the PDFs.
 
I remember people being upset when Buck Rogers High Adventure Cliffhangers came out because it was seen as the last nail in the coffin for XXVc. High Adventure Cliffhangers was a completely new ruleset that was something of a major departure in RPG design for the time and it was a completely different setting for Buck Rogers roleplaying.
 
I have on my shelf:

Boot Hill (2nd and 3rd editions)
Marvel Super Heroes (original and Advanced Set)
Gangbusters (1st and 3rd editions)
Dungeons & Dragons (original, Basic, and 1st edition Advanced)
Conan
Indiana Jones
Star Frontiers
Top Secret
(1st edition, but recall playing the S.I. version at some point)
Gamma World (1st edition--recently acquired the reprint, haven't played it yet)

I find them all quite memorable aside from Gamma World, but that's just because I never had it back then.
 
I have on my shelf:

Boot Hill (2nd and 3rd editions)
Marvel Super Heroes (original and Advanced Set)
Gangbusters (1st and 3rd editions)
Dungeons & Dragons (original, Basic, and 1st edition Advanced)
Conan
Indiana Jones
Star Frontiers
Top Secret
(1st edition, but recall playing the S.I. version at some point)
Gamma World (1st edition--recently acquired the reprint, haven't played it yet)

I find them all quite memorable aside from Gamma World, but that's just because I never had it back then.

I saw Boot Hill 3e on a store shelf back when it was released. I wasn't into the idea of westerns at all at the time, so I didn't even look at it. I've never seen the other editions. The closest I came was seeing some of the modules when a person I know happened upon some shrinkwrapped copies in the late 90s and sold them on ebay. We were a bit surprised they sold for as much as they did (about $30 for each module).

I played Marvel quite a bit through the 80s and 90s. I still like it, but it's been ages since I played.

I had Gangbusters 3e. I purchased a copy in the 00s sometime. It never clicked with me, and I no longer have it.

I don't recall ever seeing the Conan RPG at all. I think my first knowledge of its existince comes from these boards where someone mentioned it and ZeFRS.

I think I recall seeing the Indiana Jones box set. I have a dim recollection of not thinking it was an RPG. Was that 1984? I wasn't a fan of Indy at the time. I didn't much care for Indiana Jones until Last Crusade at the end of the decade. I don't even think I saw Raiders until late in the 80s when I just happened to see it on TV one night.

I had a Star Frontiers set that someone had left with me and never picked back up. I can't say it ever did anything for me. I don't have any Star Frontiers stuff any longer.

Already rambled at length on Top Secret.

As for Gamma World, I could probably type a whole post just on that. Gamma World was a game which I saw back in 1982 and developed a whole image in my head of what it was. Later in 1986 or 87, I got the 3e set and not only was the system a mess (it had a whole BOOK of errata provided) but it didn't live up to my image of what I was expecting. I no longer have that 3e set, having dumped it long ago. I do have a 2e and 4e set that I acquired in the 00s. Still, I think I missed my window to really appreciate Gamma World. I think I expected something more like Rifts. Instead Gamma World's tone was something more like... I dunno. It just came across as silly to me. To me Gamma World has this disconnect between what the covers portray it as and what the inside of the box actually delivers.
 
I confess that I was largely out of the loop on rpgs at the time. We played D&D mostly. Anything else was hard to find. There weren't any game stores nearby, so it was what bookstores and toy stores carried. There was no internet and I couldn't afford to regularly get Dragon or any mags so I wasn't tuned in. I owned Star Frontiers. I had played a few sessions of Boot Hill and Top Secret (and Traveller). But I don't know what was common elsewhere. I was disappointed in Star Frontiers, especially the total lack of starships, and didn't realize until years later that there was a whole extra supplement for that.

I did have a subscription to Strategy and Tactics and thought Dragon Quest looked cool but never played it.

In the 90s, after I got out of college and had a car and a bit of money, I picked up gangbusters and other non-TSR rpgs in the used sections of game stores, but I wasn't on the scene when they came out.
 
G Gabriel I agree with your assessment of XXVc, except for it being "clunky." As a nearly fat-free version of the 2e system, I found it practically elegant, particularly where the skill system and Rogue class are concerned. I would also agree that it had a childish look to it, especially for such a grim, hard sci-fi setting. I've known people who were turned off by the perception that it was a "space opera" game, which it ain't. Far from it, although you wouldn't know it from the graphic presentation. I think what they were shooting for was a look that said "pulp adventure in hard sci-fi setting," which is more or less how they described it in Book 3, but they didn't quite hit the mark.

As for High Adventure Cliffhangers... take a dead IP + ugly-as-fuck artwork + a threadbare rule set + all the bad will generated by the previous game = an even deader IP. If they would have not rehashed the whole "War Against the Han" storyline from the first couple of years of the comic strip and instead focussed on the later, more attractive, cornier space opera-style stories, they might have had at least a memorable game to leave behind. But... well, there you have it.

Anyone here ever played TSR's Escape from New York boardgame? Always wanted to try that out.

Edit: a word.
 
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Amazing Engine warrants a call out I think. Flawed product but there a bunch of fun settings,
I got the tabloid journalism one off the used shelf for $2 maybe a decade ago but never got a chance to try it. What are the flaws?
 
Amazing Engine warrants a call out I think. Flawed product but there a bunch of fun settings,

Oh yes, Amazing Engine!

I recall reading a review of the game where the author asked who the hell the game was for. As I understand it, Amazing Engine characters have a "Core". As you play and earn XP, you can apply it to this Core. The Core is transplantable to different campaign universes. So if one session you want to play one universe but the next session you play a different universe you keep the same Core character and don't lose the XP. Who was this for? It was for gamers like me at the time.

I had multiple games and wanted to play several. But there was a lot of resistance to playing other games even under the same system. If we were playing TMNT it meant we weren't playing Robotech and leveling up our Robotech characters. If we were playing a BTS one shot, it seemed like a total waste. That was just the attitude at the time, that playing a different character meant losing progress (as well as starting over at zero). Amazing Engine seemed like it was trying to address that issue.

Of course, I didn't ever buy Amazing Engine at the time. It was sold in stores back then in world/game combo packs. The only one I ever saw in stores was "For Faerie, Queen, and Country." That one was everywhere, stocked deep, and those copies stayed in stores for a long, long, long time. I can't say that one looked appealing to me.

Years later I got hold of a copy of Kromosome and... it's another one of those where I remember absolutely nothing about it. Just nothing grabbed me about it. I couldn't tell you anything about the setting or system. I don't even have the book any longer.

I kind of wanted to track down Bughunters once upon a time, but it seems it was just not meant to be.
 
I got the tabloid journalism one off the used shelf for $2 maybe a decade ago but never got a chance to try it. What are the flaws?
As Gabriel mentioned, the central conceit of the system was that carry across the XP and key stats between entirely different characters in very different settings resulting in a while new layer of complication to an otherwise simple percentile system. It's bit like if you could carry across the key stats and chracater progression of your diletante Call of Cthulhu investigator to your Runequest Troll warrior.

Also, while the ideas were good, the production values were abysmal. TSR had some creative folks, but quality control seemed to go against their religion.
 
DragonQuest is a GREAT game and I'll fight anyone who says different! :gunslinger:
Does it count as a TSR game if they just buy the publisher (SPI) and lock it away after halfheartedly issuing a 3rd edition?
 
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Well, they did republish Dragon Lance and did at least one dual stated adventure.

The big problem with The Amazing Engine was character creation sucked. The character core didn't transfer across all that well as it basically built a dice pool to apply to attributes. I might not remember rightly, the only book I still have is Bug Hunters which really deserved more love as a concept.
 
What about the Dragon Magazine games? Quest For The Emperor's Treasure, File 13, King of the Table Top, Monsters of the Midway and so many others. Man, Dragon was a great magazine. :sad:

We played File 13 a couple times and King of the Table Top once. The board game Kings and Things is King of the Tabletop's worthy successor.
 
XXVc does have something which I consider a flaw that affects a lot of other TSR stuff around that timeframe, especially box sets. The presentation is very... childish. I don't know how else to describe it. TSR was using a lot of big fonts and very simple art with really bright colors. There were lots of inserts which really didn't add anything.


I think you may have hit upon the reason I dismissed many TSR games at the time. Like many I started with D&D, but the class / level thing never resonated with me so I quickly branched out to other games. That said I wasn't anti-TSR, I played Top Secret, Gamma World, and a little Boot Hill, although I think I was caught between editions because I never had my own copy of BH. Unusual for a game I played.

For a period there was a slew of seemingly very basic games which your description captures well. I am only now starting to appreciate that they may not have been the crappy games that they appeared to be at the time from a quick flip through. As most were licensed properties, I suspect approachable was the intent but to a "seasoned RPG veteran" :dice: they probably did seem childish to us.

By the later 80s I was heavily into HERO and GURPS, GDW and FGU games so gave TSR little attention, although we did dabble a bit with Star Frontiers and Top Secret SI. I completely overlooked Gangbusters which is odd as I love the 1920-30s as a setting.
 
I want to go back and double check the martial arts (not marital, thanks G Gabriel LOL) system for Top Secret. In my mind, the combatants would secret list their moves in order (Karate Chop, Forearm Block, then Sweep the Knees) then you would compare them and see what cancelled out what or what hit. I remember as a teen thinking "I cannot be doing this right," but that's how we did it.

I'm actually afraid to check just in case I dreamed the whole thing.
 
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the marital arts system for Top Secret. In my mind, the combatants would secret list their moves in order (Karate Chop, Forearm Block, then Sweep the Knees) then you would compare them and see what cancelled out what or what hit. I remember as a teen thinking "I cannot be doing this right," but that's how we did it.

Seems like a pretty accurate marriage system.
 
I want to go back and double check the marital arts system for Top Secret. In my mind, the combatants would secret list their moves in order (Karate Chop, Forearm Block, then Sweep the Knees) then you would compare them and see what cancelled out what or what hit. I remember as a teen thinking "I cannot be doing this right," but that's how we did it.

I'm actually afraid to check just in case I dreamed the whole thing.
As I recall you have martial arts combat correct.
 
How about the TSR minigames like They've Invaded Pleasantville and Saga? Actually played Saga, was a bit disappointed. Vikings roaming a map looking for treasure and dodging dragons. I'm sure there were others but I can't remember them all. There were also the AD&D Monster cards at the time.
They also did some other boardgames. I'm still quite fond of Knights of Camelot and The Great Khan Game.
 
good Amazing Engine already got mentioned. Interesting idea there, the whole experience passing between different character in different campaigns, a sort campaign of one-shots with a meta continuity keeping them together. Remember playing it in middle school some of the settings where very good For Faerie, Queen, and country and Magitech, TSR's response to Gurp's Technomancer, Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon but with actual ghosts, not saying it would be good just that I'd buy a dead tree copy of it, read it, and play a campaign for it. Others were well, very polished one-shots, BugHunters, fun but you got the complete experience from one session.

But nobody mentioned TSR's Alterinty game lines, Dark Matter and Star Drive? That's some high quality 90's gaming nostalgia right there.

Dark Matter- see back in the 90's TSR was actively competing against Chaosium's Delta Green and Edens Studio's Conspiracy X for attention of the X-files consumer. while sadly only Delta Green is the only line receiving any new support today Dark Matter had its own unique kitchen sink approach to conspiracy gaming that embraced the "cinematic" approach as Delta Green held to its Lovecraftian roots. It made for a more fast paced game detective game with the potential for many flavors of cinematic conflict.

Star Drive- a Kitchen sink space opera where every sub-genre of sci fi is a playable faction that are at war with each other? Yes, It is colorful nonsense but it is fun game-able nonsense. I love that in the setting it is canon that the Matrix Hacker faction was created by the Orwellian dystopia faction because why not have the Watson and Doyle explanations be the exact same. Mad Max faction teaming up with the Star Trek faction to fight in the Tek wars, but of course. The Tek wars are going to huge. You want a snapshot of what was going on in 90's science fiction? play this setting.

I played these two settings so hard back in the day. I remember hunting through Borders to get the newest book for the lines good times. and good thing I did because only the D20 Modern ports was ever put up on Drive Thru and those are mere crumbs from TSR's golden age banquet. I'd feel sad but then I remember it is 2019 and Dragon Dice is a thing again (with new monster dice and a new faction) so anything is possible and hope springs eternal.
 
Does it count as a TSR game if they just buy the publisher (SPI) and lock it away after halfheartedly issuing a 3rd edition?
Not as far as I'm concerned, no. DQ 3e was just one in a series of really assholish insults to SPI and their fans.
 
Divine Right was excellent. The later "Collector's Edition" (not published by TSR) was a shoddy effort.
 
William the Conqueror 1066 was also very interesting. No dice; combat results depended on unit, terrain and flanking. The map was doublesided, so one could also play Stamford, and playe a two battle mini-campaign. Each battle would play in about or under two hours.
 
Is this another chance for me to sing the praises of TSR's Marvel SAGA?

Dragonlance: Fifth Age SAGA was a great system, setting and creative team wasted on a brand that has lived up to one of its own rules--"Evil turns in upon itself." ;) (Bitter? Me? A little.)
 
Dragonlance: Fifth Age SAGA was a great system, setting and creative team wasted on a brand that has lived up to one of its own rules--"Evil turns in upon itself." ;) (Bitter? Me? A little.)

SAGA was a good system that had the misfortune of hitting the shelves when TSR were circling the drain. It was a good system for Dragonlance and an excellent one for Marvel. A shame that both were so short lived.
 
SAGA was a good system that had the misfortune of hitting the shelves when TSR were circling the drain. It was a good system for Dragonlance and an excellent one for Marvel. A shame that both were so short lived.

Marvel died because Marvel Comics apparently only grants licenses on a year-by-year basis now and had unrealistic expectations, thus pulling it despite extensive future support plans (the Spider-Man roster book, Green Goblin's Guide to Crime, and a series of standalone quickplays based on hot Marvel events that were slated for monthly release in 2000, IIRC). Dragonlance Saga died because of overpriced support, the fans wouldn't buy anyone other than Weis & Hickman guiding the setting, the weakness of the tie-in novels, and WotC's drive to bring everything under the D&D/d20 umbra, IMO.
 
I loved me some Dragonlance during the the the original Chronicles and Legends were being produced. Then it started becoming EU like with authors other than Weis and Hickman contributing, resulting in the Heroes books and the Tales anthologies.

I recall the Heroes book featuring the story of Huma was OK. I remember really liking Stormblade. Then I hit Weasel's Luck and I thought that one was terrible. I couldn't bring myself to finish it. Then there were the Tales books. They were uneven at best. Every once in a while there would be a good short story, but that was the exception rather than the rule.

After that, I read some of what they called the Meetings series or something. There was one featuring Tanis called The Shadow Years or something which was OK. There was a Kitiara focused one called Dark Heart, which I surprisingly liked despite being about Kitiara, my least favorite cast member of the Chronicles/Legends. But the series was sprawling and the quality was so highly variable and usually bad that it was really difficult to be a fan any longer.

Then there was Dragonlance: The Second Generation which introduced Steel Brightblade. I hated Steel from the first moment he appeared on the page. He was a horrible character. His absolute craptitude made me forget all about how bland and boring Palin Majere was. And this was Weis and Hickman, so there was no excuse that it was some other writer mucking things up.

But all that paled compared to Dragons of Summer Flame. WHAT. A. CLUSTER.

I'll say the one and only thing I liked about Summer Flame. I liked Usha. That's it. I'm so sad she ended up with Palin. I'm so sad she had to share a story with Steel. She wasn't a great character by any means, but she was the only likable character in the book.

Even before I ever heard about the marketing reason behind Summer Flame, the book seemed like Weis and Hickman throwing all their toys against the wall to shatter them and then storming out to go home. The whole book felt like a capital middle finger. I don't know if they intended it as a middle finger to TSR, but it came across as a middle finger to the reader.

And THAT was the springboard for Fifth Age.
 
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