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Favourite LofTP Release?


  • Total voters
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I liked Tower of the Stargazer but generally have not been that impressed by the other things by Raggi that I've looked at (e.g., the first version of Death Frost Doom). I find them off-putting, aesthetically, stylistically, and content-wise. I don't like 'campaign-destroying' events in my adventures (unless it's a one-shot -- but I have limited use for those kinds of adventures). Titles like 'Eldritch Cock' strike me as pathetically childish (and I have no idea what it's about). In general, Raggi's notion of what 'old school' adventuring is about is utterly alien to me (as someone who has been gaming since ~1980). His conception of 'Lovecraftian horror' is 100% the opposite of how I understand it. I just don't 'grok' why others like his stuff -- but hey, may a thousand flowers bloom and all that. (I also don't understand why people liked V:tM or most everything story-ish over the past three decades in RPGs, or 4th edition D&D, or M:tG, or most contemporary music, or...) To be fair, I've only looked at a fraction of the LotFP products. But as far as I can tell, they've been pretty typical of the line.

One of the things that I find frustrating when people talk about LotP products online (whether the ones by Raggi or not): it seems almost impossible to get a clear, concise statement of what they are about -- what plot, idea, or twist has people so thrilled. Give spoiler warnings, sure, but instead of simply praising x, tell me (in a couple of sentences) what exactly the 'big idea' of the product is. Hammer of the Gods is an example: it's been praised by many people, but I have only the vaguest idea why (as far as I can tell, it's because the decline of the dwarves is the fault of the dwarves themselves, and this is somehow a shameful secret that nobody, including most contemporary dwarves, knows? But the party finds out about this secret in the course of an adventure? Is that it?). It's annoying as hell.

So I'm grateful to Edgewise for actually explaining, in a clear and concise way, what is supposed to be cool about Thulian Echoes. (And it does sound pretty cool, if a little too time-intensive for anything I'd want to run.)

As I mentioned earlier in this thread Thulian Echoes and Kowalski’s Scenic Dunnsmouth remain my favourite LotFP releases. Scenic Dunnsmouth is a village setting infected by cultists. A classic D&D setup but the module comes with a randomizing element to generate aspects and occurrences in the village and pushed the horror element just a little bit more than classic D&D would. Still it is more creepy than gory (not that I have an issue with gore per se) and has a sense of black humour.
 
My post (to which Voros replied above) seems to have disappeared. So here it is again:

I liked Tower of the Stargazer but generally have not been that impressed by the other things by Raggi that I've looked at (e.g., the first version of Death Frost Doom). I find them off-putting, aesthetically, stylistically, and content-wise. I don't like 'campaign-destroying' events in my adventures (unless it's a one-shot -- but I have limited use for those kinds of adventures). Titles like 'Eldritch Cock' strike me as pathetically childish (and I have no idea what it's about). In general, Raggi's notion of what 'old school' adventuring is about is utterly alien to me (as someone who has been gaming since ~1980). His conception of 'Lovecraftian horror' is 100% the opposite of how I understand it. I just don't 'grok' why others like his stuff -- but hey, may a thousand flowers bloom and all that. (I also don't understand why people liked V:tM or most everything story-ish over the past three decades in RPGs, or 4th edition D&D, or M:tG, or most contemporary music, or...) To be fair, I've only looked at a fraction of the LotFP products. But as far as I can tell, they've been pretty typical of the line.

One of the things that I find frustrating when people talk about LotP products online (whether the ones by Raggi or not): it seems almost impossible to get a clear, concise statement of what they are about -- what plot, idea, or twist has people so thrilled. Give spoiler warnings, sure, but instead of simply praising x, tell me (in a couple of sentences) what exactly the 'big idea' of the product is. Hammer of the Gods is an example: it's been praised by many people, but I have only the vaguest idea why (as far as I can tell, it's because the decline of the dwarves is the fault of the dwarves themselves, and this is somehow a shameful secret that nobody, including most contemporary dwarves, knows? But the party finds out about this secret in the course of an adventure? Is that it?). It's annoying as hell.

So I'm grateful to Edgewise for actually explaining, in a clear and concise way, what is supposed to be cool about Thulian Echoes. (And it does sound pretty cool, if a little too time-intensive for anything I'd want to run.)
 
Eldritch Cock is another joke name, meant to follow the previous year's Vaginas Are Magic. But whereas Vaginas Are Magic is a book of spells that can only be cast by women, Eldritch Cock is just a general sourcebook.
Both have rules for LotFP's new magic system, which is based on Magic Points, rather than the usual D&D spell slot system.

There's a historical wargame company I like, Too Fat Lardies, and their games are infamous for having titles that are sophmoric acronyms... like Troops, Weapons And Tactics... or just plain saucy... like What A Tanker.
It puts some people off... but they don't seem to care, and (like LotFP) the games themselves are quite good.
 
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Hammer of the Gods is an example: it's been praised by many people, but I have only the vaguest idea why (as far as I can tell, it's because the decline of the dwarves is the fault of the dwarves themselves, and this is somehow a shameful secret that nobody, including most contemporary dwarves, knows? But the party finds out about this secret in the course of an adventure? Is that it?)
Thanks for mentioning this - it had escaped my notice somehow, and I'm a sucker for a good dwarf-adventure.
 
Honestly I would have thought that something like that would have been given on Free RPG Day. What is it about? And is "Not Zak" Raggi?
It's not even really that weird until you get to the modules.
Except for the Summon spell.
Both have rules for LotFP's new magic system, which is based on Magic Points, rather than the usual D&D spell slot system.
What is the book where the new magic system is detailed?
 
Honestly I would have thought that something like that would have been given on Free RPG Day. What is it about? And is "Not Zak" Raggi?
AFAIK it was written my Raggi. Other than the short editorial (about how the Zak stuff has affected him and his business) it is an adventure that Raggi describes as a Hateful Eight-type scenario, where the PCs come upon a place full of antagonists, poised to go after each other.

What is the book where the new magic system is detailed?
IIRC both Vaginas Are Magic and Eldritch Cock feature the basics of the new LotFP magic system. I think it might of been derived from the one in Exemplars & Eidolons, but I'm not positive. My assumption is that it will get further development in the much-anticipated but slow-in-coming LotFP GM's book.
 
IIRC both Vaginas Are Magic and Eldritch Cock feature the basics of the new LotFP magic system. I think it might of been derived from the one in Exemplars & Eidolons, but I'm not positive. My assumption is that it will get further development in the much-anticipated but slow-in-coming LotFP GM's book.
Now that might be interesting:tongue:!
 
IIRC both Vaginas Are Magic and Eldritch Cock feature the basics of the new LotFP magic system.
That gives me pause. Those systems were both game-breaking jokes. Presumably it depends on the spells themselves, especially since they are not ranked by level. But to be honest, most of LotFP more recent output has failed to interest me. I was not even particularly moved by Newt Newport's entry, and I'm a big fan of Crypts and Things as well as the adventures he writes for that game.

But in any case he's going to need much better spells to make the system actually work.
My assumption is that it will get further development in the much-anticipated but slow-in-coming LotFP GM's book.
AKA Raggi's Chinese Democracy. Last time I saw him mention it was on the Lamentations blog a couple years ago, running some odd ideas past the readers. It sounded like it could go a very new direction, but it also sounded like he was totally up in the air about some very basic concepts. I recall him considering that all damage should be via d8's, and different weapons call for rolling multiple dice in an advantage/disadvantage mechanic. It sounded workable but I was surprised to hear him considering something so clearly outside the D&D framework.
 
Thulian Echoes and Kowalski’s Scenic Dunnsmouth
Scenic Dunnsmouth is great, I love how the relations between characters and contents of rooms can shift completely between plays. I'd love to get Thulian Echoes in print, hopefully in the coming "Blood" anthology.
 
Raggi posted his top sellers on Twitter, he had some interesting comments on their economic struggles as a business but it was mixed in with some stream-of-consciousness political babble that I’m not going to engage with here (or anywhere):

Anyway, here are the LotFP 2018 full year sales charts:


Print


1. Rules & Magic


2. Frostbitten & Mutilated


3. Veins of the Earth


4. Vornheim


5. A Red & Pleasant Land

PDF


1. Frostbitten & Mutilated


2. Vornheim


3. Veins of the Earth


4. Rules & Magic


5. A Red & Pleasant Land


*Titles which sold more print copies in 2018 than 2017 (ranked by biggest difference):
1. Rules & Magic


2. A Red & Pleasant Land


3. Veins of the Earth


4. Death Frost Doom

5. Scenic Dunnsmouth


6. No Salvation for Witches


7. Qelong


8. Isle of the Unknown


9. Tower of the Stargazer


10. Seclusium of Orphone


11. Carcosa


12. Monolith


13. Forgive Us


14. Towers Two


15. Cursed Chateau


16. England Upturn'd


17. God that Crawls

So what I take from this is Rules & Magic is still a top seller and so is Zak, which is interesting.

With a lot of the excitement around OSE I wonder if that will hurt LotFP’s core rules sales going forward and if Zak will continue to be their top seller.
 
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So what I take from this is Rules & Magic is still a top seller and so is Zak, which is interesting.
If I recall, Raggi is planning to sell the remaining copies he has of Zak's work and then stop. Nothing drives a spike in sales like the possibility of it not being available later.

I don't know if OSE will hurt Rules and Magic. Basic D&D types generally like to house rule and mix and match.
 
1. Frostbitten & Mutilated
Fascinating...not only is it written by Zak but IMO it's his least interesting work. I found nothing of interest in that particular book.
 
Is he going to pull PDFs from being for sale or just no additional print runs.
 
I second this question

Sorry y'all intended to go back and write out the whole name but forgot.

Kinda funny to say that Old School Essentials is the new hotness in the OSR as it is at its base a very faithful reorganization of B/X!
 
Is he going to pull PDFs from being for sale or just no additional print runs.
That’s the interesting question, will Raggi cut off his long tail to spite his face.
 
Sorry y'all intended to go back and write out the whole name but forgot.

Kinda funny to say that Old School Essentials is the new hotness in the OSR as it is at its base a very faithful reorganization of B/X!
It's partly because B/X really is one of the best editions of D&D, and also, despite the many retroclones influenced by it, nobody has actually done one that simply gave you the B/X rules straight. On top of that, Gavin is a master when it comes to organizing RPG books. The original B/X books are actually really well organized for the time, but he has surpassed them.
 
Fascinating...not only is it written by Zak but IMO it's his least interesting work. I found nothing of interest in that particular book.
I fell in love with the theme and style... but certainly was disappointed with the actual content.

The most interesting content, the Witch class, I had already printed out from his blog years ago... when it was a bit more fun because it was an amalgamation of reader submissions.

Oh well.
 
[...] nobody has actually done one that simply gave you the B/X rules straight.

Didn't Labyrinth Lord do this? (LL covers levels 1-20 instead of 1-14, but otherwise I thought that it was pretty much B/X D&D?)
 
That’s the interesting question, will Raggi cut off his long tail to spite his face.

He won't; DriveThruRPG themselves said at the time of the "official banning" that they would have kept selling works to which Zak has contributed in the past, with the excuse that dropping them would also damage other people who worked on them.

Anyway, Raggi has basically publically repented from dropping Zak in the last pages of his Gencon 2019 "Not Zak" book. Not that it wasn't obvious even before that he did it simply because of the external pressure.
 
I think that I'm missing something: Zak was banned/dropped from DriveThruRPG? And Raggi is not going to sell his stuff anymore either?

(Feel free to link to the relevant news item instead of explaining it here...)

Edited to add: okay a quick internet search and I think that I know enough now... (glad to have been ignoring LotFP for the past few years)...
 
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(glad to have been ignoring LotFP for the past few years)...

Don't be too glad. You've been losing out on some extremely high quality books, and Raggi's production values as publisher are second to none.
 
Don't be too glad. You've been losing out on some extremely high quality books, and Raggi's production values as publisher are second to none.

People have different tastes. My games have been going just fine without LotFP stuff. (In fact, I have too much great stuff already -- C&T, Mythras, Greyhawk D&D, Call of Cthulhu, Middle-earth, etc.)

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have some LotFP stuff from years ago. With the exception of 'Tower of the Stargazer' (which I liked and from which I have taken a few ideas), I didn't care for them -- they didn't strike me as 'old school' at all, and aesthetically I found them unappealing. With respect to content, adventures that destroy campaigns (e.g., 'Frost Death Doom' or whatever it's called) have no appeal for me.

I hadn't paid attention to the product line for years. (Whenever a product has been mentioned, I've found it strangely difficult to get a clear, succinct description of what it's about, and consequently ignored it.) So I dipped into this thread out of curiosity...

But based on the discussion here (which I've found helpful and informative), and the news regarding ZS, I don't think I've missed anything, especially given my gaming preferences...
 
Didn't Labyrinth Lord do this? (LL covers levels 1-20 instead of 1-14, but otherwise I thought that it was pretty much B/X D&D?)
Aside from big changes, like running from level 1-20 and giving clerics spells at 1st level. There are countless small changes like the numbers in every single XP table being different, weapon damage changes, the reaction table is reversed, the dungeon stocking tables are all different, armor costs are changed, a roll of 20 is an automatic hit in LL, etc.

There are enough changes that it would get confusing if you have a mix of LL and B/X books between players.
 
Thanks for that overview, Baulderstone. I hadn't realized (or had forgotten) that there were so many differences between LL & B/X...
 
People have different tastes. My games have been going just fine without LotFP stuff. (In fact, I have too much great stuff already -- C&T, Mythras, Greyhawk D&D, Call of Cthulhu, Middle-earth, etc.)

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have some LotFP stuff from years ago. With the exception of 'Tower of the Stargazer' (which I liked and from which I have taken a few ideas), I didn't care for them -- they didn't strike me as 'old school' at all, and aesthetically I found them unappealing. With respect to content, adventures that destroy campaigns (e.g., 'Frost Death Doom' or whatever it's called) have no appeal for me.

I hadn't paid attention to the product line for years. (Whenever a product has been mentioned, I've found it strangely difficult to get a clear, succinct description of what it's about, and consequently ignored it.) So I dipped into this thread out of curiosity...

But based on the discussion here (which I've found helpful and informative), and the news regarding ZS, I don't think I've missed anything, especially given my gaming preferences...
I really like Lamentations of the Flame Princess as a system, and I like several of the adventures for it as well, but I can certainly see not doing so, and not everything the company puts out has been my cup of tea either (Blood in the Chocolate for instance was pretty bad in my opinion). However, apart from possibly/probably The Monolith Beyond Space and Time, there aren't really any campaign destroyers in there. Death, Frost Doom for instance
at its worst releases a rather large force of 2HD undead, either completely undirected or under the command of an undead general. That doesn't sound campaign destroying to me, more like fodder for future adventures.

Now, one can still not like the aesthetics of the adventures or what not (I'm certainly not a fan of the new direction the rules seem to be heading in) but that's a different kettle of fish.
 
As for differences between Lamentations and Labyrinth Lord or B/X, I'd say the biggest changes are losing the class-based restrictions on equipment, Fighters being the only ones to get a better attack bonus when leveling up, the Specialist class and the skill system, and the new encumbrance rules. Plus certain spells (especially Summon).
 
Death, Frost Doom for instance...
Well, don't forget Broodmother Skyfortress, which can result in the destruction of multiple cities. The God That Crawls has a treasure that can lead to the destruction of the universe ("The Book"). No Salvation For Witches can end with a worldwide socialist revolution - not exactly apocalyptic, but it will overturn a campaign world.

Of course, I love all of these. They are obviously not everyday adventures, but they adhere to an old-school sensibility in that there are no guide rails to prevent the PCs from screwing themselves (and everything else) over. It's always possible for a more conservative GM to reduce the stakes, but IMO that would be an act of cowardice, as well as cutting away a lot of what makes these adventures so distinctive.

I always point out that the rule for Lamentations are clever, elegant, restrained and incredibly well-considered, which is totally in opposition to the sensibility of the adventures themselves (i.e. no-holds-barred). The flavor of the latter is not to everyone's liking, but the rules are something anyone interested in the OSR should look into.
 
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Death, Frost Doom for instance
I usually think of DFD as a campaign STARTER rather than ender, so yeah.
The only LotFP adventure that I think is a complete 'FU' to the PCs is a short one called The Tower, in the back of the original Death Frost Doom... not that it is completely murderous, but it is a trap, and there is no treasure. You win by realizing that its setup sounds to good to be true and not falling for it.
 
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I recall him considering that all damage should be via d8's, and different weapons call for rolling multiple dice in an advantage/disadvantage mechanic. It sounded workable but I was surprised to hear him considering something so clearly outside the D&D framework.
What? How is that "outside the D&D framwork", other than by using d8s instead of d6s:smile:?
 
What? How is that "outside the D&D framwork", other than by using d8s instead of d6s:smile:?
It's not rolling 1d8 plus or minus X. It's rolling Xd8 and keeping the highest or lowest die. I am unaware of any damage mechanic like that in any edition or clone.
 
It's not rolling 1d8 plus or minus X. It's rolling Xd8 and keeping the highest or lowest die. I am unaware of any damage mechanic like that in any edition or clone.
The encumbrance system in LotFP is also unlike any found in any edition of D&D (or any other clone except for pretty mutated iterations like Knave or GLOG that aren't really clones anyway). LotFP Encumbrance rules is maybe my favorite part of LotFP.
 
It's not rolling 1d8 plus or minus X. It's rolling Xd8 and keeping the highest or lowest die. I am unaware of any damage mechanic like that in any edition or clone.
Sorry, I forgot to answer that!

"Roll 2d6 keep higher" has been a standard houserule for using two-handed weapons in OD&D for a long time now, or so I've been told. I'm also reasonably sure I've seen it in some clone that wasn't LotFP, but can't remember the name off-hand.
 
Sorry, I forgot to answer that!

"Roll 2d6 keep higher" has been a standard houserule for using two-handed weapons in OD&D for a long time now, or so I've been told. I'm also reasonably sure I've seen it in some clone that wasn't LotFP, but can't remember the name off-hand.
Ah yes, you're right, I have heard of that. It's similar, but this sounded like it could involve more dice and entail either picking the high or the low roll. And not just for two-handed weapons. But I guess you're right, there's definitely a similarity. Although I honestly think that doing it with d8's changes things a bit.

All that being said, this was like two years ago, so god knows if that idea stuck around or it was just a random thought.
 
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