The Martial Arts Thread

zanshin

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I can't think of many great boxers I would define as brawlers in that sense. Some great boxers do claim they go into the ring without much of a plan and just adapt in the ring but to really pull that off you have to be top-flight in terms of skill.

The aforementioned Terence Crawford and an up and coming contender Boots Ennis are two I've heard make that particular claim.

Certainly being able to adapt to what happens in the ring and to have a Plan B and C, etc. if you need it is the sign of a great boxer but going in having studied and prepared for your particular opponent is also the sign of a great boxer. Canelo is a good example of the latter.
Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, Joe Frazier maybe of the classics? Take a punch to give some punches.
 

Voros

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Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, Joe Frazier maybe of the classics? Take a punch to give some punches.

I wouldn't call Joe a brawler. In boxing the term has connotations suggesting lesser skills and Joe was a very talented boxer. Dempsey and Marciano I haven't seen enough to say for sure although Marciano's rep is as one of the lesser skilled yet still great HW champs.
 

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I think brawler is a pretty subjective term. I tend to think of someone like Arturo Gatti as a brawler. And to me that doesn't necessarily mean unskilled (thought it can), but does suggest a level of aggressiveness, willingness to get in there and take hits to give hits and someone who is an entertaining fighter to watch. I am from Boston and always found myself rooting for Gatti when he fought Micky Ward because he heart and a brawling style that really impressed me when those fights were happening (I do think there is a difference between watching fights after they aired and you know the results and seeing them unfold live----and those fights were so exciting to see at the time).
 

zanshin

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I wouldn't call Joe a brawler. In boxing the term has connotations suggesting lesser skills and Joe was a very talented boxer. Dempsey and Marciano I haven't seen enough to say for sure although Marciano's rep is as one of the lesser skilled yet still great HW champs.
I don't deny any of their skills, but the way Frazier was flattened by Foreman speaks to defensive skills that were insufficient for that fight. Frazier was prepared to endure a lot of damage to execute his game plans.

Dempsey v Tunney and Walcott v Marciano were seen as classic 'boxer v fighter' matches.
 

Voros

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I think brawler is a pretty subjective term. I tend to think of someone like Arturo Gatti as a brawler. And to me that doesn't necessarily mean unskilled (thought it can), but does suggest a level of aggressiveness, willingness to get in there and take hits to give hits and someone who is an entertaining fighter to watch. I am from Boston and always found myself rooting for Gatti when he fought Micky Ward because he heart and a brawling style that really impressed me when those fights were happening (I do think there is a difference between watching fights after they aired and you know the results and seeing them unfold live----and those fights were so exciting to see at the time).

Gatti could box but later on as either his reflexes declined, hard-living caught up to him or realizing he could attract more attention by taking ridiculous amounts of punishment, did he become a brawler.

I enjoy the Ward/Gatti fights but they're both amusingly unconcerned with proper defense and as much as I enjoy them I wouldn't consider any of their fights top flight examples of boxing skill. At this point I feel Gatti/Ward, although among the fights that really made me a boxing fan early on, are in danger of being overrated.

Before Gatti/Ward, a fight that to me was just as exciting and just as good if not better was Ward vs. Burton. Burton also gave Floyd Mayweather one of his best fights when he was at his best as Pretty Boy Floyd before moving up in weight and becoming the much less exciting, cherry-picking Money Mayweather.



The other trilogy that really made me a boxing fan was the Barrera and Morales trilogy, which are both exciting, action-packed and fought at a much greater skill level.


I listened to a great podcast a while ago with Ward and he was endearingly open and unromantic about his fights with Gatti and his career in general.

 

Voros

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I don't deny any of their skills, but the way Frazier was flattened by Foreman speaks to defensive skills that were insufficient for that fight. Frazier was prepared to endure a lot of damage to execute his game plans.

Dempsey v Tunney and Walcott v Marciano were seen as classic 'boxer v fighter' matches.

Foreman flattened Frazier in two rounds, I don't think a lack of defense had much to do with it, more it was Foreman's effective use of his long jab, height and hitting like a mack truck.

Foreman similarly flattened the very talented and defensively skilled Ken Norton in two rounds as well.

Young Foreman was a monster, what happened to Frazier and Norton does not indicate anything about their defensive skills or lack of I think. Like young Tyson, Frazier used extensive head and upper body movement, foot placement and his arms/gloves to block shots, his defensive skills are deceptive. If Frazier was a brawler there's no way he could have beaten Ali, arguably more than once.

Ali only survived Foreman by taking an insane amount of physical damage, he was obviously a defensive master but with his relexes in decline it was really his chin that saved him, although I don't doubt the amount of damage he took in that fight contributed mightily to his later nerve damage and severe physical decline.

Just my two cents anyway, love talking boxing!
 
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BedrockBrendan

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Foreman flattened Frazier in two rounds, I don't think a lack of defense had much to do with it, more it was Foreman's effective use of his long jab, height and hitting like a mack truck.

Foreman similarly flattened the very talented and defensively skilled Ken Norton in two rounds as well.

Young Foreman was a monster, what happened to Frazier and Norton does not indicate anything about their defensive skills or lack of I think. Like young Tyson, Frazier used extensive head and upper body movement, foot placement and his arms/gloves to block shots, his defensive skills are deceptive. If Frazier was a brawler there's no way he could have beaten Ali, arguably more than once.

Ali only survived Foreman by taking an insane amount of physical damage, he was obviously a defensive master but with his relexes in decline it was really his chin that saved him, although I don't doubt the amount of damage he took in that fight contributed mightily to his later nerve damage and severe physical decline.

Just my two cents anyway, love talking boxing!

Frazier's style is very difficult to emulate well. I think that bull dog approach does require a good deal of technical skill. Head movement like that isn't easy or random, it requires constant drilling to make natural. It is also a style that very much depends on being well conditioned. I am no pro, but that is the style I gravitated towards personally. I do consider it a bit of a brawling style though, because even though there is a great deal of technique involved, you are exposing yourself to more punishment than say an outside fighter (obviously plenty of outside fighters end up taking punishment).

With Frazier and foreman, I watched those fights a lot (I actually did my college history thesis on Ali-Foreman, which required me going back and watching fights like Foreman Frazier. I even managed to interview Foreman and Norton. My interpretation of Foreman, and I do think its easy to overlook things so it is just my interpretation, is he was a monster like you said. But he definitely didn't have the boxing skills in the 70s that he developed when he fought later. Perhaps there is just something deceptive about his style at that time that I am missing. But he very much struck me as someone who was a powerhouse and knock out artist, whose lack of technical skill might have thrown people off (because that can feel unorthodox if you aren't used to it and the person can knock you out so easily like he could). I am not saying he was totally unskilled. I just think he was someone who had a lot of natural talent, natural power, but lacked the technique of a Frazier or Ali at that time.
 

BedrockBrendan

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Gatti could box but later on as either his reflexes declined, hard-living caught up to him or realizing he could attract more attention by taking ridiculous amounts of punishment, did he become a brawler.

I enjoy the Ward/Gatti fights but they're both amusingly unconcerned with proper defense and as much as I enjoy them I wouldn't consider any of their fights top flight examples of boxing skill. At this point I feel Gatti/Ward, although among the fights that really made me a boxing fan early on, are in danger of being overrated.

Before Gatti/Ward, a fight that to me was just as exciting and just as good if not better was Ward vs. Burton. Burton also gave Floyd Mayweather one of his best fights when he was at his best as Pretty Boy Floyd before moving up in weight and becoming the much less exciting, cherry-picking Money Mayweather.



The other trilogy that really made me a boxing fan was the Barrera and Morales trilogy, which are both exciting, action-packed and fought at a much greater skill level.


I listened to a great podcast a while ago with Ward and he was endearingly open and unromantic about his fights with Gatti and his career in general.


For me those fights are not about technique. Fighters get old and their reflexes aren't the same later in their careers. But they are the most entertaining fights I had seen since the 80s as a fan. I can totally appreciate Ward feeling unromantic about them now (especially with everything that happened to Gatti in his personal life and his eventual death: and Gatti is a poster boy for what boxing can do to a person I think). But those fights were wildly entertaining when they happened, and when I go back and watch them I still find them so. I do appreciate skillful boxing, but technical matches also do run the risk of becoming dull in my opinion. And none of those Ward-Gatti fights ever felt dull to me. But I have always gravitated towards fighters who either move gracefully and just make boxing look beautiful or guys who can get in there and slug it out. And knock out artists always entertain me regardless of technical skill. The ward-gattti fights were entertaining because they were fights. They weren't displays of technical prowess as much as two guys going toe-to-toe, which, damaging as it is, is one of the reasons people watch boxing. And I also find it hard not to admire someone who is willing to do that (just having gotten a taste of those kinds of beatings myself, it takes a great deal of determination, will, and courage to get in there like that and to keep moving forward when you are taking that kind of punishment). Obviously we know way more about this stuff now. We've had a lot of high profile deaths too, so it is complicated on a moral level. But I do appreciate a good war when you get them. Especially when you have fighters who almost put aside their technique to trade blows and brawl.

I think what also hooked me on those fights is, when they aired, I wasn't expecting them to be that massive trilogy we got. I just remember being aware I was watching an amazing fight when that first match aired. I also love when a fighter wins me over. I knew I was supposed to be rooting for Ward (and I do like Micky Ward), but I wanted Gatti to win once I those exchanges. Respect to both of them though.
 

BedrockBrendan

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Foreman flattened Frazier in two rounds, I don't think a lack of defense had much to do with it, more it was Foreman's effective use of his long jab, height and hitting like a mack truck.

This. Foreman hit incredibly hard. And he was very, very intimidating. Watch him pound on the bag in the When We Were Kings documentary.

Also styles matter. That bull dog approach of Fraziers take tremendous defensive skill. but it is a style of defense that lends itself to absorbing some blows. And against someone like Foreman it can just take a couple of good shots for him to rattle someone.
 

BedrockBrendan

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Ali only survived Foreman by taking an insane amount of physical damage, he was obviously a defensive master but with his relexes in decline it was really his chin that saved him, although I don't doubt the amount of damage he took in that fight contributed mightily to his later nerve damage and severe physical decline.

It might be fun if everyone sat down and watched a fight like this and did a thread on it. I haven't really sat down and watched Ali-Forman in about ten years. Curious if my thoughts on it would change watching it now. One thing I remember, because I was deep into it at the time and reading all the different accounts, was how different it looked than how it was described. I would be very interested in your in depth analysis of it. There is also the whole tacit claim by foreman that he was drugged before the fight by his trainer (he tells a story that the water his trainer gave him before the fight tasted like 'medicine' and that he felt extremely tired and lethargic after)
 

zanshin

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It might be fun if everyone sat down and watched a fight like this and did a thread on it. I haven't really sat down and watched Ali-Forman in about ten years. Curious if my thoughts on it would change watching it now. One thing I remember, because I was deep into it at the time and reading all the different accounts, was how different it looked than how it was described. I would be very interested in your in depth analysis of it. There is also the whole tacit claim by foreman that he was drugged before the fight by his trainer (he tells a story that the water his trainer gave him before the fight tasted like 'medicine' and that he felt extremely tired and lethargic after)
that would be cool. However, I don't give too much credence to Foreman being drugged. Being lethargic after a big unexpected defeat sounds like depression to me, not surprising. Ali also was brilliant at mind games.
 

BedrockBrendan

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that would be cool. However, I don't give too much credence to Foreman being drugged. Being lethargic after a big unexpected defeat sounds like depression to me, not surprising. Ali also was brilliant at mind games.

I don't give it a lot of credence myself, but thought it ought to be mentioned for completeness (also boxing is quite a dirty sport, especially back in that day, so it is always an interesting component of the discussion)
 

Voros

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For me those fights are not about technique. Fighters get old and their reflexes aren't the same later in their careers. But they are the most entertaining fights I had seen since the 80s as a fan. I can totally appreciate Ward feeling unromantic about them now (especially with everything that happened to Gatti in his personal life and his eventual death: and Gatti is a poster boy for what boxing can do to a person I think). But those fights were wildly entertaining when they happened, and when I go back and watch them I still find them so. I do appreciate skillful boxing, but technical matches also do run the risk of becoming dull in my opinion. And none of those Ward-Gatti fights ever felt dull to me. But I have always gravitated towards fighters who either move gracefully and just make boxing look beautiful or guys who can get in there and slug it out. And knock out artists always entertain me regardless of technical skill. The ward-gattti fights were entertaining because they were fights. They weren't displays of technical prowess as much as two guys going toe-to-toe, which, damaging as it is, is one of the reasons people watch boxing. And I also find it hard not to admire someone who is willing to do that (just having gotten a taste of those kinds of beatings myself, it takes a great deal of determination, will, and courage to get in there like that and to keep moving forward when you are taking that kind of punishment). Obviously we know way more about this stuff now. We've had a lot of high profile deaths too, so it is complicated on a moral level. But I do appreciate a good war when you get them. Especially when you have fighters who almost put aside their technique to trade blows and brawl.

I think what also hooked me on those fights is, when they aired, I wasn't expecting them to be that massive trilogy we got. I just remember being aware I was watching an amazing fight when that first match aired. I also love when a fighter wins me over. I knew I was supposed to be rooting for Ward (and I do like Micky Ward), but I wanted Gatti to win once I those exchanges. Respect to both of them though.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I love the Gatti/Ward fights (first and third in particular if I remember right).

I personally enjoy watching old Ward fights more than Gatti, later Gatti he takes often ridiculous amounts of damage. Almost LaMotta like masochism seems at play sometimes.

Ward's freakishly powerful bodyshots make his fights tremendously entertaining to watch.
 

Voros

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Frazier's style is very difficult to emulate well. I think that bull dog approach does require a good deal of technical skill. Head movement like that isn't easy or random, it requires constant drilling to make natural. It is also a style that very much depends on being well conditioned. I am no pro, but that is the style I gravitated towards personally. I do consider it a bit of a brawling style though, because even though there is a great deal of technique involved, you are exposing yourself to more punishment than say an outside fighter (obviously plenty of outside fighters end up taking punishment).

With Frazier and foreman, I watched those fights a lot (I actually did my college history thesis on Ali-Foreman, which required me going back and watching fights like Foreman Frazier. I even managed to interview Foreman and Norton. My interpretation of Foreman, and I do think its easy to overlook things so it is just my interpretation, is he was a monster like you said. But he definitely didn't have the boxing skills in the 70s that he developed when he fought later. Perhaps there is just something deceptive about his style at that time that I am missing. But he very much struck me as someone who was a powerhouse and knock out artist, whose lack of technical skill might have thrown people off (because that can feel unorthodox if you aren't used to it and the person can knock you out so easily like he could). I am not saying he was totally unskilled. I just think he was someone who had a lot of natural talent, natural power, but lacked the technique of a Frazier or Ali at that time.

That's awesome, I'm a huge Norton fan and I'm of the non-expert opinion that he won at least two, maybe all three of his fights with Ali.

I think Foreman himself has noted that in the first round of his career he wasn't that skilled. I think we really missed out on something when he first retired, if he had been able to combine his later skills and stamina earlier in his career he would have been an even greater HW. And that's saying something.

I haven't watched Ali Foreman in a long time, whereas I revisit Ali Frazier and Ali Norton every few years. Would be good to give it a rewatch
 
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AsenRG

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You definitely need technique to brawl, but it's not any specific kind of technique, IME. It's just that you can't win cleanly, by technique, so you're willing to take a beating as well as give one...
But it's the decision to play it risky that makes the style a brawling one. You could have decided to play it safe and minimize the damage on both yourself and the opponent. And it probably would have worked, if he made a similar decision as well...though the spectators would have called it a boring fight:shade:.

But if the opponent is outclassing you a lot, you're going to fail without being able to deliver your side of the beating.
Conversely, if facing an opponent you're outclassing, the same "brawling technique" would deliver a "clean" victory. Think "pro boxer known for brawling in the ring vs street guy": would you expect the pro to take any punches? I wouldn't, honestly (unless the pro is Jake La Motta, as mentioned above:tongue:). What I'd expect to see would be a quick fight-ending combo, or even a single punch:devil:.

Bottomline, "pro brawlers" only brawl because their opponents are good enough that they have to compensate by taking a beating. Like Ali, as Voros Voros mentioned - but unlike him, they're not waiting for the opponent to tire himself out. Instead, you make him pay for the punishment he's delivering.


Also, Foreman* is one of my favourite boxers, precisely because of his technique - which is really underevaluated, IMO. But that same technique works splendidly with bare knuckles, while I'm much less certain about other boxing styles:grin:!

*As I've said before, my favourite boxers are probably Klichko, Foreman and Duran, and I'm slowly warming to Lomashenko, Joe Lewis and Norton. Maybe I need to do some boxing on the side...if only I could find a trainer that would understand that I have specific needs, goals and and criteria that aren't served by a one-size-fits-all approach. But then I think finding a Greco-Roman coach would be more fruitful in the long run:gunslinger:!


BTW, after watching Matt Lindland, I can totally understand why Greco-Roman stylists are among the most successful fighters in the UFC.
 

BedrockBrendan

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You definitely need technique to brawl, but it's not any specific kind of technique, IME. It's just that you can't win cleanly, by technique, so you're willing to take a beating as well as give one...
But it's the decision to play it risky that makes the style a brawling one. You could have decided to play it safe and minimize the damage on both yourself and the opponent. And it probably would have worked, if he made a similar decision as well...though the spectators would have called it a boring fight:shade:.



*As I've said before, my favourite boxers are probably Klichko, Foreman and Duran, and I'm slowly warming to Lomashenko, Joe Lewis and Norton. Maybe I need to do some boxing on the side...if only I could find a trainer that would understand that I have specific needs, goals and and criteria that aren't served by a one-size-fits-all approach. But then I think finding a Greco-Roman coach would be more fruitful in the long run:gunslinger:!
.

I think Foreman was one of the most entertaining boxers to watch (I love knock out artists). Just curious what about his technique do you think people are not appreciating (curious because if you've noticed something about it, I would like to make a point of looking for it too when I watch his old fights again).
 

AsenRG

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I think Foreman was one of the most entertaining boxers to watch (I love knock out artists). Just curious what about his technique do you think people are not appreciating (curious because if you've noticed something about it, I would like to make a point of looking for it too when I watch his old fights again).
The "mummy guard", I've written about it earlier in the thread. It is being used in MMA quite a bit, where they call it "zombie guard" sometimes (well, it's not like it's got an official name, so I'm not sure whether "rhino guard" is the same - I only encountered that today). It's basically like an extended guard in fencing, and - extremely important - it basically forces anyone who wants to punch him to handfight (in fencing, that's where you start the winding and binding).
And Foreman is better at the handfighting, because he's been practicing it.
In MMA, Daniel Cormier and Darren Till were doing this as well.
 

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The face of Neil Melanson's partner after he demonstrates a few chokes on him is a source of great entertainment for me, and probably other viewers as well...:shade:
Mind you, that's because his chokes are just that good! Something like the half helch is nothing short of fight-ending.

And now I'm wondering what would happen if they allowed at least standing chokes and locks in Triad Combat:devil:? Those are much harder, but it would be an option for someone like Frank Mir.
Well, in all likelihood is that what's going to happen would be the boxers learning to drop to the ground to escape the choke, but it was an entertaining thought.
 

AsenRG

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It's 18.12, so that* makes it Proverbs day:grin:!
There's a Bulgarian proverb: "Every ill is ultimately for the better":shade:.
And nothing shows it like grappling does (though admittedly, it applies across any kind of fighting). Your opponent is slipping your armbar by bending the elbow? Fine, hit him with a bent-arm lock! He's trying to underhook you? Overhook him and drag him like a rag doll:devil:.


And me thinking about this and watching Neil Melanson while being sick (I had 40,2 degrees C less than 48 hours ago:skeleton:) is an illustration for another Bulgarian proverb: "It's the hungry hen that dreams of millet":gunslinger:.


*"It's 18.12. and I'm in the mood for some proverbs":tongue:.
 

AsenRG

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Today's quote is from Neil Melanson again, the guy illustrates perfectly my preferred attitude (he was talking about playing the bottom game, but it goes far beyond that):
"I like going to him and forcing him to make mistakes":shade:.

Also, his shoulder pin guard is very interesting and easier on the joints than the rubber guard. I wonder whether I can combine his shoulder pin with the rat guard, meaning "if I can't set up one of these, I set up the other"...:devil:

Well, the first step would be to see which one would be easier to set up, I guess.
 
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AsenRG

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Scandalous..or at least curious:shade:! I'm watching Duane Ludwig's instructional on defense and at some point his partner starts to feed him punches that wouldn't have got to his head even without him "pulling the punch":grin:!
Normally, Bullshido fans declare this to be "a sure sign of a fake master"...


But that's Duane Ludwig. The guy is quite able to defend that punch. The thing is, his partner just knows it's not going to reach, so he doesn't adjust when his teacher breaks away (showing how to pull with a backstep). Maybe he didn't even notice:thumbsup:.
Edit: just a bit later he explains that the partner should )paraphrasing a bit) "aim at the face, not to hit, but to allow you to be successful". Because it's training.
Duh! Guess he knew that:shock:?

Anyway, the whole thing is really just amusing. But it also shows that the partner feeding you "too short punches" doesn't necessarily mean the trainer is unable to defend them, as some Bullshido guys loved to imply (though to their credit, the trainer not being able to defend the attacks sometimes MIGHT well be the reason behind the shorter punches:devil:).

Also, because I got bored with instructionals, I watched two Sensei Seth videos. One of them was "Karate teacher reacts to Tik Tok self defense advice"...and it had the particular pearl where someone described how to defend a knife trust with your jacket.
To his credit, Seth went to the kitchen, brought a knife and a spare t-shirt and demonstrated how good of a "protection" the cloth would provide:tongue:!
(He seemed much less familiar with strangleholds, though).
 
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AsenRG

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Possible misquote, but even if it's not word for word, it's entertaining...:grin:
"When you're doing ground and pound, it's not like boxing (chin down, straight punches). It's like a bar brawl". - Mark Lajhner.

Amusingly, Mark Hatmaker starts his explanation of ground and pound with "the punches are the same as in boxing".
My conclusion: they're probably both right, except one of them uses boxing in bar brawls:devil:!
 

Fenris-77

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Possible misquote, but even if it's not word for word, it's entertaining...:grin:
"When you're doing ground and pound, it's not like boxing (chin down, straight punches). It's like a bar brawl". - Mark Lajhner.

Amusingly, Mark Hatmaker starts his explanation of ground and pound with "the punches are the same as in boxing".
My conclusion: they're probably both right, except one of them uses boxing in bar brawls:devil:!
I really don't think they are, at least not 1-1 anyway. There's no much wrist control and arms in the way, and the opponents are far to close together for the same skill set to translate. I wouldn't say it's a bar brawl either mind you, at least not if you're trained the way I'd train for that. I'd probably characterize it as half-way between boxing and grappling.
 

AsenRG

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I really don't think they are, at least not 1-1 anyway. There's no much wrist control and arms in the way, and the opponents are far to close together for the same skill set to translate. I wouldn't say it's a bar brawl either mind you, at least not if you're trained the way I'd train for that. I'd probably characterize it as half-way between boxing and grappling.
I agree with you, and would train for ground and pound the same way. "Halfway between boxing and grappling" describes what I do on the feet as well, amusingly enough...:shade:
In their defense, Lajhner was obviously* referring to the punches being more on the looping side, in order to go around the hands and to utilize the weight of the upper body as well. And Hatmaker was just as obviously** trying to convey "don't discount the power generation of boxing, and keep your chin tucked".
Of course, they don't do GnP the same way. Lajhner recommends remaining mostly upright, using your feet and hip to invade the space, bending forward after passing the legs and throwing looping bombs around the defense, while Hatmaker prefers sitting back on his haunches in a half-crouch, and shooting bombs while his body is clearly over his base. He invades the opponent's space with his knees, hip pressure and grips, instead.

Overall, both approaches can work, but I would prefer to keep strong position, especially head position, switching from strikes to grabs and smothering the opponent's defense, and then reverting to grabs (and combining that with passes, because hey, if you want to give me side control/crucifix/north south/back/mount in order not to get punched, I ain't complaining:devil:). Not something I've seen anyone advocating, but that's what I would do.
Of course, we don't do much exercises with punching in BJJ, so that's mostly theory/practice from earlier styles:thumbsup:.

*When you're watching the clip, which is hard to transmit to text-only. I am trying, but I ain't perfect...don't tell anybody, though:tongue:!
**Accounting for pictures in the book, and other comments elsewhere in the text.
 

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I really don't think they are, at least not 1-1 anyway. There's no much wrist control and arms in the way, and the opponents are far to close together for the same skill set to translate. I wouldn't say it's a bar brawl either mind you, at least not if you're trained the way I'd train for that. I'd probably characterize it as half-way between boxing and grappling.

I have fairly mild ground and pound experience from sparring (which I think is probably leagues different from doing it in a real match). It has been a while but I do remember feeling like I couldn't get torque into my punches because of the positioning (your feet aren't using the ground to give your force, your hips are straddling the person and it just didn't feel like my shoulders rotated into the punch as well). Might have just been my experience level, and my memory of it is not crystal clear.
 

AsenRG

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I have fairly mild ground and pound experience from sparring (which I think is probably leagues different from doing it in a real match). It has been a while but I do remember feeling like I couldn't get torque into my punches because of the positioning (your feet aren't using the ground to give your force, your hips are straddling the person and it just didn't feel like my shoulders rotated into the punch as well). Might have just been my experience level, and my memory of it is not crystal clear.
That's quite how many people feel, so your memory is good enough. There are tricks around this - like, "being upright to begin with", like the guy in this video - but getting enough power behind your punches relies more on dropping your weight, and finding the space to accelerate a looping punch, IMVLE...so you can argue it's its own skill.
 

Fenris-77

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That's quite how many people feel, so your memory is good enough. There are tricks around this - like, "being upright to begin with", like the guy in this video - but getting enough power behind your punches relies more on dropping your weight, and finding the space to accelerate a looping punch, IMVLE...so you can argue it's its own skill.
Dropping your weight is key, yeah, I agree. G&P an accumulation of small victories rather than a knockout mostly, although dropping the right elbow past someone's guard can be a fight ender.
 

AsenRG

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Dropping your weight is key, yeah, I agree. G&P an accumulation of small victories rather than a knockout mostly, although dropping the right elbow past someone's guard can be a fight ender.
Well, yeah, especially with the rules that limit it, like the forbidden 12-6 elbow and forbidden knees to the head...but then most of us can't reliably knock people out (with a single strike) on the feet, either - so there's often the matter of "accumulation of smaller victories":devil:.

I mean, I have knocked people down with one strike, and more than once. Can I do so reliably? Depends on who I'm punching, and a host of other factors, I'd say:shade:.
OTOH, throws and submissions are always reliable when you aim to achieve some specific effect (including "gaining time to get away"). Neither gravity nor lack of oxygen can be ignored for long:skeleton:.
Weapons are usually in the same list as well, but those are for extreme cases, obviously.

On a lighter note, dropping an elbow past the guard becomes really easy if you're in crucifix to begin with. Of course, side control, crucifix and kesa gatame are the ones I always prefer to anything else...well, anything except having the back, I mean:tongue:!
(When I have the back, I'm a happy camper that isn't even trying hard to do submissions - GnP from the back is just brutal. So in practice, I'm just waiting for you to become tired, and trying to keep you flat if possible:grin:!)
 
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Voros

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Something satisfying about a body shot knock-out. Painful to often contemplate.

 

AsenRG

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Something satisfying about a body shot knock-out. Painful to often contemplate.

It's amusing indeed, especially given how many of the KOs I've ever delivered were actually bodyshots:shade:.
 

AsenRG

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I'm thinking of fist chokes lately. Those seem to be loads of fun. Need to try them, since I think I even managed to come up with one of my own, but for that I need to go back to practice, and for that I need to recover my breathing...:shade:.

Despite being stuck at home, I managed to understand how to apply a short arm scissors (as a follow-up to a failed kimura). That also seems to be loads of fun:devil:.

So, in the spirit of New Year Resolutions, I'm planning to spend the next several months on my BJJ guard work, and then I might look into some branching out, maybe Greco-Roman wrestling or an MMA gym, if I can find a teacher willing to deal with my old, fat self:angel:.

Just to clarify, I'm not planning on dropping BJJ. You already know I love locks and holds that wouldn't even be allowed in wrestling, so it wouldn't even make sense to do so:tongue:! Branching out is branching out, no more and no less.

Actually, I'm not even sure I am going to branch out, we'll see about that when we get closer to mid-year, but the guard work is non-optional:thumbsup:!

Oh, and I just learned something fun that Fenris-77 Fenris-77 is going to LOVE: the "Kimura" lock is called that after Masahiko Kimura, Japanese Judo champion who applied gyaku-ude-garami to defeat Helio Gracie in 1951, after the BJJ player defeated Yukio Kato, another top-ranked Judo player.
Obviously, that confirms my theory that Kimura himself didn't call the lock "Kimura" (unless he was a real narcissist...which we have no reason to believe to be true:grin:)!
Ain't names a funny thing?

And here's a very good breakdown of the Kimura lock and all the benefits that come with it:

Have fun!
 
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BedrockBrendan

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It's amusing indeed, especially given how many of the KOs I've ever delivered were actually bodyshots:shade:.

Body shots can hurt pretty bad (especially a liver shot). I still have pain in my ribs when I do certain exercises from some some well placed body shots
 

AsenRG

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Body shots can hurt pretty bad (especially a liver shot).
I've found out that to be completely true:shade:!

I still have pain in my ribs when I do certain exercises from some some well placed body shots
Ouch:shock:!

In other news, I'm considering getting the Kimura Trap system from the guy who came up with it. I probably should, as well, since it's now on sale:grin:!
Then, of course, I'd have to make a week-long kimura marathon. Or two weeks long. The full content is something like 11 hours, and I've got a couple instructionals on the kimura I'm yet to watch as well:devil:!
 

AsenRG

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As expected: I caved in and got the Kimura Trap System! The flesh is weak...:shade:

Also, that means that once I'm done with the butterfly guard and the clinch, I'm off to my Kimura Marathon (which amounts to, by first estimates, around 20 hours of Kimura-themed video, possibly more:devil:). But I've got another 12-15 hours of video to finish first...so it's going to take a while:grin:!

As you can guess, readers of this thread shall be kept informed:tongue:!
 

death2uall64

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So ... I studied kosho-ryu kenpo, a style taught in: a small, industrial city in Massachusetts; Austin, TX; and two tiny islands off the coast of Okinawa, for eight years, and achieved the rank of shodan (first-degree black belt). I'm not going to claim to be any sort of expert and I no longer consider myself a black belt because it's been over 15 years since I've done anything with it, but I have a kind of amusing anecdote regarding the way my school regarded other arts, particularly tae kwon do.

A (much) more advanced student than I, and a good friend who had studied kenpo for years before coming to our school, once recited a parody of the American (Ed Parker) Kenpo creed. I find it hilarious to this day.

"I come to you with Tae Kwon Do, the Partial Art. I come to you with no hands, and very little kicks. But should I be forced to defend myself, my principles or my honor, should it be a matter of life or death, of right or wrong; then ... I'll study kenpo!"

Yeah, sorry. We were a bunch of arrogant pricks back in the day ... but I do still find it hilarious.
 

death2uall64

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Sorry ... studied tae kwon do before coming to our school. I don't know how I managed to get that wrong ... :errr:
 

AsenRG

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Well, it is hilarious, even if lacking in respect. And sports styles are always partial (traditional TKD is supposed to have decent hands and even locks and throws), so I presume you're referring to sport TKD...

As a warning that used to be popular on a Russian forum goes: "Don't mistake Karate with the sport of the same name":devil:.

On my side, today is a memorable day: it's the first time in my life that I pulled guard voluntarily (i.e. without the trainer telling me explicitly to pull guard as part of a drill or something):grin:!
Why? Well, the obvious reason is "because it's not a smart idea in real application":tongue:.
But today, I was just practicing for the fun of it, and to get the basics down.
As you might remember from my resolution, I've decided it's best to work on my bottom game first. For that, I obviously have to be on the bottom, and when I manage to take someone down, I'm often not even in the guard any more...
So I went for a guardpull, which - by itself - worked as expected. That is, I got in guard bottom, and started working.
That's when things went pear-shaped, though. My attempts to establish the shoulder pin failed miserably. My attempts to establish rat guard were only marginally more successful: I managed to do so, but the "opponent" pulled his hand out of the hand-to-leg control in less than 2 seconds.
So I was stuck in closed guard. In my defense, he didn't manage to pass it, so we ended the roll by time without anything of consequence happening!
I even got the partial honour of being declared "the one who's less tired". This mattered, because there were exactly 3 of us (morning practice generally gets less attendance) and thus the one who submits or is less tired, gets to play with the other guy.
You know, the one who is now fresh? While you've got at most 30 seconds of rest:shade:?
In light of that, it's probably not cause for much surprise that the next opponent passed my guard successfully. He's also more experienced than me, not to mention 15 years younger.
Well, most of my partners are at least 15 years younger, so I don't count that as an advantage for them, really:skeleton:! (Besides, my worst loss during a BJJ was against a guy who was 8 years older than me...but with orders of magnitude more experience). As long as they aren't also more experienced in grappling, it's fine!
 
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AsenRG

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Yesterday was a good day martial arts-wise. First Son went to his first BJJ practice and got hooked:shade:.
Today I had the Kimura Trap System's Mind Map printed out and laminated. In both A3 and A4. It certainly looks interesting:thumbsup:.
Tomorrow we might get to lead Second Son to BJJ as well, though there's no guarantee he'd be ready to follow the instructions:grin:!

Bottom line, it seems I might get a partner or three to practice with at home...or at least I might get them at some point in the next several years, when the kids grow up enough to be able to work with Dad:devil:!
 
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