The Martial Arts Thread

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AsenRG

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On a more upbeat note now, I've started working on my kimuras/ude-garami/double wristlocks. It's time to test those in a roll as well, as soon as I get to the gym:thumbsup:.

See, I was actually saving this for "after I get some more experience in actual rolling". But since I've been able to get to the top in recent rolls, I thought it's about time to check what I can do with those moves.

Hopefully the test would be tomorrow:shade:.
 

BedrockBrendan

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And I got assaulted today. Why an obviously weaker opponent would choose to attack me over what counted as a minor disagreement in my book, is beyond me, frankly:shade:!
My working theory is that it has to do with the "three Ds" I mentioned earlier, betting on the "deranged" in this case (no smell of alcohol, though obviously I can't rule out drugs).

OTOH, I'm glad to report that, mostly due to me showing restraint, nobody was really hurt, except one of my fingers was bleeding (heavy squeezing with the goal to break it, and though I didn't allow the breakage, the squeezing just had to be withstood:angel:).

What Happened?
 

AsenRG

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What Happened?
Keeping it vague enough, someone I know, and know for being aggressive, got into a shouting and pushing match with me, then took my glasses off (possibly with the view of punching me in the face). To me, that was the "it's on" signal, so I reacted appropriately.

I have been discussing the bent-arm locks in this thread, right? I got to one of those during the standing grappling. From there it mostly calmed down, and I simply didn't use my advantage to deliver damage.

Bottom line, an overall boring event, we'd have been shouted out in any kind of match:grin:! My only saving graces are that I was basically sick at the time*, and that I didn't want to inflict unnecessary damage.
Not sure that the other side had similar restraint in mind, despitelater claims that it wasn'tintended as an attack. Yeah, sure, the stench is giving your bull away, you know...:shade:



*Still am, no training tomorrow, which sucks. I always return with a virus from sea holidays. Well, never wanted to go there in the first place:thumbsup:!
 

AsenRG

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I just found and listened to this interview. And I came to a surprising conclusion...
If this is catch wrestling, I've been a catch wrestler at heart ever since I joined HEMA. Funny, that:tongue:!

OK, but that was just for fun. We have spoken about this kind of things quite a few times already! Your Martial Arts Animator doesn't want to bore you (and Friend Computer said that would be a bad thing to do:angel:).

So instead, I'd like a discussion about something else today... listen to this as well, especially towards the end.
So...we all need to get in the mental range for doing the job. That much is self-evident to anyone who's been in a fight (or who has ever frozen at the start of one, we don't judge...:grin:).
But what can this mental state be?
According to a Belorussian practitioner (who claims to be a psychologist, though there were some issues with his qualifications) there are at least three possible mental states. OK, I might be mixing up some stuff.

Anger. "Go amok", "berserk state", whatever you call it..."kill them all and take no prisoners". That's often too much for a combat sport, since the mind tends to forget what the rules say, especially if there's a perceived (real or not) rules-breakage from the other side - leading to stuff like Tyson biting an ear off. He claimed afterwards that his opponent has been headbutting him. Also, reportedly, practitioners of this mental state might develop anger management issues...:shade: If you're wondering what that would look like, check the reports for the Boxers' Rebellion in China (also: not recommended against guns!)

"Fake it until you make it". Imagining yourself to be something else, like a huge grizzly, a terminator...not recommended without psychologic help - from a guru who knows how, for example, or from actual psychiatrists!

Absolute spontaneity. The hardest to achieve, yet the least threatening to your psyche (reportedly). You just act as you're taught, reacting spontaneously. Also known as "mizu no kokoro" and "flow state"...but really, it's all about the same thing. Alas, it seems to be only available to people who've been trained for the specific kind of conflict that they're having, and feel absolute security (and, reportedly, being "one with everything around"). A variation of it is "leaving yourself to be the instrument of the Lord", where the user literally lets the Lord do his will and he's just fighting to the best of his ability. Reportedly practiced in some monotheistic schools.

So, do you know of any other mental states? Yes, not many people have ever encountered the second one, but it obviously exists as well. (I remember a report from someone kinda-using it in self-defense training to show a normal suburban woman what she is already capable of: he gave her a rubber knife and told her to imagine that she is a Native American woman, and the man in front of her is a soldier who was planning to kill her and her kids afterwards. Reportedly, the man got demolished and was lucky he had protectors on).
 

Rob Necronomicon

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Keeping it vague enough, someone I know, and know for being aggressive, got into a shouting and pushing match with me, then took my glasses off (possibly with the view of punching me in the face). To me, that was the "it's on" signal, so I reacted appropriately.

I have been discussing the bent-arm locks in this thread, right? I got to one of those during the standing grappling. From there it mostly calmed down, and I simply didn't use my advantage to deliver damage.

Bottom line, an overall boring event, we'd have been shouted out in any kind of match:grin:! My only saving graces are that I was basically sick at the time*, and that I didn't want to inflict unnecessary damage.
Not sure that the other side had similar restraint in mind, despitelater claims that it wasn'tintended as an attack. Yeah, sure, the stench is giving your bull away, you know...:shade:



*Still am, no training tomorrow, which sucks. I always return with a virus from sea holidays. Well, never wanted to go there in the first place:thumbsup:!
Wow... Sorry to hear that man. I hope you came out of it okay?? And yeah anyone that tries to 'touch your glasses' means it's on, in my book. Usually, you can tell the people who are full of hot air because they will stay back while calling you all the names under the sun. But once someone moves in then you know what's coming next.
 

AsenRG

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Wow... Sorry to hear that man. I hope you came out of it okay?? And yeah anyone that tries to 'touch your glasses' means it's on, in my book. Usually, you can tell the people who are full of hot air because they will stay back while calling you all the names under the sun. But once someone moves in then you know what's coming next.
Yeah, I am fine, man, thank you! All trauma I sustained was likewise minor, like a hurt (bleeding) finger:thumbsup:.

My glasses are also fine, or I'm afraid I wouldn't have held back...funny enough, at one point it devolved basically into a hostage negotiation, with my glasses in the role of the hostage (my lock was on the other hand, or I'd have got them back, followed by disengaging, pretty much on the spot:shade:).
Of course, it probably helped that the moment someone touches my glasses, I revert to a mix of my old and new movements.

Now on to mental states, as I'm leaving that incident behind:grin:!
 

Rob Necronomicon

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Yeah, I am fine, man, thank you! All trauma I sustained was likewise minor, like a hurt (bleeding) finger:thumbsup:.

My glasses are also fine, or I'm afraid I wouldn't have held back...funny enough, at one point it devolved basically into a hostage negotiation, with my glasses in the role of the hostage (my lock was on the other hand, or I'd have got them back, followed by disengaging, pretty much on the spot:shade:).
Of course, it probably helped that the moment someone touches my glasses, I revert to a mix of my old and new movements.

Now on to mental states, as I'm leaving that incident behind:grin:!
Glad you're okay dude and that you weren't hurt. Whatever the outcomes it's always an unpleasant experience. There are a lot of silly egotistical men out there who always are looking for a bit of trouble. :sad:
 

AsenRG

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Yeah, it's never a nice experience. But then we learn those things in order to not fight!

Now, on to the part where we discuss martial arts and RPGs, so this episode reminded me why I like systems with opposed rolls: because in a real fight, everybody is basically doing the same thing and it's all happening at once:shade:!
What do you guys say to that:grin:?
 

Rob Necronomicon

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Indeed! :smile:

Yeah, for me, it's kind of hard to equate 'real' unarmed combat into rpgs. Because in the real world action tends to beat reaction. But for gaming purposes, I usually like the person with the highest relevant attribute to go first (unless they are surprised). No harm in adding a little random factor in there too by adding their attribute mod to a die roll (depending on what system you are using of course). Therefore they will probably act first most of the time but it's not guaranteed. ;)
 

AsenRG

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Indeed! :smile:

Yeah, for me, it's kind of hard to equate 'real' unarmed combat into rpgs. Because in the real world action tends to beat reaction. But for gaming purposes, I usually like the person with the highest relevant attribute to go first (unless they are surprised). No harm in adding a little random factor in there too by adding their attribute mod to a die roll (depending on what system you are using of course). Therefore they will probably act first most of the time but it's not guaranteed. ;)
Yeah, tends to, but doesn't always...and it's not the same person that goes first every time, either.
And therein comes the dice roll, for me:thumbsup:.
Of course, opposed rolls remove the need for initiative, usually. Simultaneous actions as in Classic Traveller also have that effect, also allowing for trading strikes (and double-hits, when it's with weapons).
 
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AsenRG

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OK, guys, let's someone else offer a topic for discussion for a change:grin:? I promise only to reply.
 

AsenRG

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OK, the silence is deafening. So let me ask a question instead:grin:!

Yesterday a fighter broke his own leg in UFC after delivering a leg kick. Anyone has any idea what's happened:shock:?
 

MoonHunter

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Yesterday a fighter broke his own leg in UFC after delivering a leg kick. Anyone has any idea what's happened:shock:?b

Without a video, this is only a guess... but I would think he hit with his long (leg) bones rather than the top of the foot. If he did that and hit a long bone or a forceful forearm block, he could of broken his leg.

In game mechanics, it was a defensive attack with the special effect chosen of the original attacker breaking something because of their attack.
 

AsenRG

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Without a video, this is only a guess... but I would think he hit with his long (leg) bones rather than the top of the foot. If he did that and hit a long bone or a forceful forearm block, he could of broken his leg.

In game mechanics, it was a defensive attack with the special effect chosen of the original attacker breaking something because of their attack.
Yeah, I'm hoping someone has a video, because Reuters reported the kick landing, and somehow the damage being to the knee, IIRC.

And after all, an event in London might have been watched even live by Pubbers:thumbsup:!

Edit: just found it on Youtube with the hard search "UFC London leg injury". It's in the start of the first round, so the clips are short.
I have no frigging idea what happened, but he was clutching his knee, and the reports are of a knee injury.
Basically Tom Aspinall kicks, lands near the hip of Curtis Blaydes, tries to step back, seems to step awkwardly, and falls down. I'm dumbfounded.
It seems likely his knee had already been injured before he went in the cage:shade:.
 
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AsenRG

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I'm working on my butterfly guard, but the real joke is that I had another of those "I've been doing it wrong" moments.
See, I've been running away from front headlocks in the exact wrong direction - the one which, according to my trainer (whom I have no reason to doubt) makes it easier to choke you.
The fact that I have managed to actually escape at least some of the front headlocks that people have tried on me, by doing it wrong, is probably a testament to my stubbornness, if nothing else:shade:!
 

MoonHunter

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The fact that I have managed to actually escape at least some of the front headlocks that people have tried on me, by doing it wrong, is probably a testament to my stubbornness, if nothing else:shade:!

It depends on their skill level. In Fencing it is called Intermediate syndrome, as they are expecting the standard action and have only mastered that response. So when you do something else, it throws them and you score (or escape). Now someone else who has moved beyond that will take your odd action as "the invitation to beat you" that it is.
 

AsenRG

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It depends on their skill level. In Fencing it is called Intermediate syndrome, as they are expecting the standard action and have only mastered that response. So when you do something else, it throws them and you score (or escape). Now someone else who has moved beyond that will take your odd action as "the invitation to beat you" that it is.
I'm a beginner in BJJ, though, so their skill levels were likely around mine. In all likelihood, they weren't expecting anything else, but didn't know how to use my mistake to their advantage, either.

And that is also known as the unschooled fighter syndrome, "that guy is dangerous because he does everything wrong", and so on.
AFAICT, though, it happens a lot less in grappling, especially once a dominant grip is present - for the same reason that you don't get hit by a "mistaken" attack in fencing if that mistaken attack is targeting a line of defense that you're already controlling. The so-called dominant grips are already restricting some options and rendering them non-viable.

In other words, I was trying to move against the direction where they had tighter control and leaving me less space. That's not dependent on their skill level, I was just putting penalties on my own attempt to escape - it's them not being able to transfer to a winning technique that allowed me to do it at all.

BTW, the likely reason I remembered it wrong is that I'm near-sighted, and probably didn't see it well back when it was shown:grin:! (The disadvantage points always sound better in chargen than in play:shade:!)


Either way, I can't go to practice today, so I'm resting.
Fun facts from yesterday's practice:
The first guy I rolled with passed my butterfly so fast I finally resolved to ask a friendly purple belt what I'm doing wrong. Turned out, I was getting the gripping mechanic wrong. I need to test it next time.
The next roll, where I played with a woman (she was also much lighter, but we were the only ones without a partner for this roll...:tongue:) was memorable, though. None of the reasons had anything to do with the mismatched genders.
1) I thought she's a blue belt. Turned out she's a beginner and I'm mistaking her for someone else. Consequently, I was playing at close to 100% during most of it, only limiting my nasty tendencies (those that cause pain).
2) I scored my first submission via ude-garame/top wristlock from kesa-gatame. Well, she tapped out after I got the grip from the position, probably didn't know what to do. Fully understandable.
3) I scored my best butterfly sweep ever. In fact, I did it by pulling butterfly guard from standing...a move that's totally underestimated IMO. It was so efficient it was more like a sacrificial throw...so I basically had to grab her mid-air.
Luckily, I managed to, and prevented her from spiking her face in the mat while her body was still in the air. She had told me that her back is sore and had asked me not to play too much with her spine. So when I saw her flying, I actually froze inside...and moved to wrap myself around her to prevent the fall:angel:.
 
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BedrockBrendan

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Yeah, I'm hoping someone has a video, because Reuters reported the kick landing, and somehow the damage being to the knee, IIRC.

And after all, an event in London might have been watched even live by Pubbers:thumbsup:!

Edit: just found it on Youtube with the hard search "UFC London leg injury". It's in the start of the first round, so the clips are short.
I have no frigging idea what happened, but he was clutching his knee, and the reports are of a knee injury.
Basically Tom Aspinall kicks, lands near the hip of Curtis Blaydes, tries to step back, seems to step awkwardly, and falls down. I'm dumbfounded.
It seems likely his knee had already been injured before he went in the cage:shade:.

It's really easy to injure yourself kicking. Especially when things happen where your distance gets messed up. But I have seen a lot of weird leg, ankle and knee injuries in styles that are heavy on kicks.
 

AsenRG

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It's really easy to injure yourself kicking. Especially when things happen where your distance gets messed up. But I have seen a lot of weird leg, ankle and knee injuries in styles that are heavy on kicks.
...I've trained in kick-heavy styles as well, and all the trauma I remember was from a kick hitting a shin, elbow, knee, or in well-timed "pain defenses", the bottom of a foot. The latter of which was always considered preferable if you're the defender:shade:.

Well, that, and from a kick landing, but that ain't what we're talking about...:grin:

The above is not trying to dispute your assessment, it obviously happens, as in, we just saw it ending a rather high-level fight:thumbsup:. I'm just wondering now why I haven't seen it, like, ever.
Maybe the focus on controlled kicks would have something to do with it? As in, I've never trained in a style where the default kick would continue past the target and have you turning 180 or 360 degrees if dodged. (Those kicks were very much an option in most places, but they were a secondary option. The default was that you'd aim a bit past the target to get penetration, but then stop and return, both in straight and circular kicks).
 

BedrockBrendan

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...I've trained in kick-heavy styles as well, and all the trauma I remember was from a kick hitting a shin, elbow, knee, or in well-timed "pain defenses", the bottom of a foot. The latter of which was always considered preferable if you're the defender:shade:.

Well, that, and from a kick landing, but that ain't what we're talking about...:grin:

The above is not trying to dispute your assessment, it obviously happens, as in, we just saw it ending a rather high-level fight:thumbsup:. I'm just wondering now why I haven't seen it, like, ever.
Maybe the focus on controlled kicks would have something to do with it? As in, I've never trained in a style where the default kick would continue past the target and have you turning 180 or 360 degrees if dodged. (Those kicks were very much an option in most places, but they were a secondary option. The default was that you'd aim a bit past the target to get penetration, but then stop and return, both in straight and circular kicks).

I don' think I have seen this specific injury either (it is possible it happened and I forgot, but I don't recall this one in particular). I Especially from a roundhouse. A lot of the weirder injuries I remember were mostly from complicated kicks like spinning back kick, or from the complexity of the exchange. Watching the video of that fight, it looks like a really simple kick you would deliver every day. So I think its not unusual that you haven't seen it.

But I just am not surprised because I've seen so many odd injuries. And plenty of them were people just doing routine stuff on the heavy bag and landing the kick wrong. Most were Taekwondo back before they used the sensors on the gear. But I also saw a fair amount in Muay Thai. I think in TKD, the athleticism of it, and the frequency of competition was a big part of the injuries (most people went to competition with some kind of injury). Some that I remember happening were a guy pulling his groin, a guy fracturing his ankle after landing a kick and bringing the foot back (I am not 100% sure it was a fracture, a break or something else, but it became a chronic injury for him), a student ripping the muscle in the back of his leg doing a simple front kick (it was loud and he was out after that), so many different knee injuries from landing wrong, kicking at too close of an angle, busted knees, clashing legs where someone gets really hurt, broken shin, a disclocated elbow from blocking a kick, pulled and torn muscles of all kinds (this was probably the most frequent thing I saw). The bigger guys always seemed to get more injured and I do remember them having a much higher incidence of muscle pulls and sprains from delivering really heavy, old school roundhouse kicks (which weren't the ones we did at our school, but we had a lot of guys who trained in the 70s and early 80s and came in as students when I was there).

In TKD, at least in the time I did it, kicks were totally different than in muay thai or even karate. A round house kick is thrown with 180 degrees of motion of the body in competition (at least it was then, I think with the sensors this isn't the case any more). So if someone dodged, you would land with your rear leg now as your lead leg (essentially going from to a wide southpaw stance), unless you anticipated it enough to pull back. This is why back kick was such a devastating counter in that style at that time (because the target's weight is going fully into your counter kick, and you can drive it up into them). He didn't do anything like that, but I can imagine if you overcommit, then withdraw you could mess something up.

I just learned to be respectful of kicks the older I get. So easy to pull something or move the joints wrong.
 

AsenRG

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I think in TKD, the athleticism of it, and the frequency of competition was a big part of the injuries (most people went to competition with some kind of injury).
Yeah, the YouTube comments mentioned that the guy might have hurt himself prior to the fight as well.
Sometimes harder training doesn't make you harder on fight night:shade:.

Some that I remember happening were a guy pulling his groin, a guy fracturing his ankle after landing a kick and bringing the foot back (I am not 100% sure it was a fracture, a break or something else, but it became a chronic injury for him), a student ripping the muscle in the back of his leg doing a simple front kick (it was loud and he was out after that), so many different knee injuries from landing wrong, kicking at too close of an angle, busted knees, clashing legs where someone gets really hurt, broken shin, a disclocated elbow from blocking a kick, pulled and torn muscles of all kinds (this was probably the most frequent thing I saw). The bigger guys always seemed to get more injured and I do remember them having a much higher incidence of muscle pulls and sprains from delivering really heavy, old school roundhouse kicks (which weren't the ones we did at our school, but we had a lot of guys who trained in the 70s and early 80s and came in as students when I was there).
Yeah, about the only ones I've seen were shin injuries from legs clashing, and from kicks landing...
Then again, I might simply have ignored some of those.

In TKD, at least in the time I did it, kicks were totally different than in muay thai or even karate. A round house kick is thrown with 180 degrees of motion of the body in competition (at least it was then, I think with the sensors this isn't the case any more). So if someone dodged, you would land with your rear leg now as your lead leg (essentially going from to a wide southpaw stance), unless you anticipated it enough to pull back. This is why back kick was such a devastating counter in that style at that time (because the target's weight is going fully into your counter kick, and you can drive it up into them). He didn't do anything like that, but I can imagine if you overcommit, then withdraw you could mess something up.
...wait, in TKD they kicked with 180 degree motion, but they didn't in Muay Thai? I'm used to the opposite, admittedly.

I just learned to be respectful of kicks the older I get. So easy to pull something or move the joints wrong.
True! I've learned to abstain from most kicks as I get older, since I don't train them regularly now (there's only 24 hours and I need to recover from training other stuff:tongue:). But funny enough, back kicks are still on my "shortened list of moves I'd actually use"...because I'm one of those weirdos that find back straight or back roundhouse kick easier than the front straight or front roundhouse:grin:!
Probably something to do with how I'm built, though I seem to be on the normal, mostly proportional side.

Come to think of it, I asked my trainer which submissions would work better for my body type. His answer was that he doesn't like that approach when it is about body type (longer legs,longer arms, and so on).
Then he looked me over and added his assessment that I'm about normal, so I can do whatever I like. However, since I've got lots of weight, top game would be harder for the opponent by making him carry my weight, and I can use the weight to finish kimuras and americanas.
Now, guys, remember what I've been focusing on, lately:angel:?
Well, it's nice when an authority (2nd degree black belt in BJJ should count) confirms your conclusions:thumbsup:.
 

BedrockBrendan

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...wait, in TKD they kicked with 180 degree motion, but they didn't in Muay Thai? I'm used to the opposite, admittedly.

It is just different in a lot of ways. You can do 180 in both but there are some crucial differences. The TKD kick that I am talking about is almost more of a lunge, you are bringing your whole body forward (which is why counters are so effective). It is also a sideways stance and muay thai kicks from a more forward facing stance (one of the hardest habits for me when I started Muay Thai was not slipping into a sideways stance when things got crazy). In TKD at the time you typically turned your entire body into the kick and would land with that foot in the lead, in muay thai you typically brought the leg back to the rear, and turned into the kick with you hip and by pivoting on your foot (in TKD the pivot was more like a full body pivot). Keep in mind this was just a very common type of roundhouse in TKD in the sports style at that time. Plenty of roundhouse kicks were thrown without turning the whole body (and instead with the pivot and the hip commitment similar to muay thai).

This should give a sense of what I mean (it is an olympic match from around the the time I was doing this: I had gone into Muay Thai by the time this match aired though). TKD looks pretty different depending on the decade, as the rules and gear have changed a lot over time:
 

AsenRG

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This should give a sense of what I mean (it is an olympic match from around the the time I was doing this: I had gone into Muay Thai by the time this match aired though). TKD looks pretty different depending on the decade, as the rules and gear have changed a lot over time:
Yeah, that's what I expected. Seems like I've misunderstood you:thumbsup:.
Now, for reference, the kick I'm referring to as "fixed and returning" is something like this.

Or maybe like this (there's something I don't like about the first guy's form, but can't put my finger on it:shade:).

While the kick I refer to as "180/360 degrees" is like this:
...because when you don't meet a target, you don't stop the kick and pull back, but follow through with it (or drop it down). Hence, you either turn 180, or 360 degrees, if you were kicking with the rear leg.
Thing is, in most of the styles I've trained, it is assumed that if someone steps back and your kick passes, he is actively going to enjoy deliberately "spur kicking" (i.e. with the talon of the boot) your kidneys through the nose, so exposing your back was a no-no.
Sure, kicking the kidneys is very much forbidden in most rulesets, professional MMA is the only exception I can think of...but we always assumed that only techniques that actively hurt the one performing them ought to be forbidden.
The other underlying assumption was that you would have shoes on, BTW, which is why I searched for JKD first:grin:!
 

BedrockBrendan

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Thing is, in most of the styles I've trained, it is assumed that if someone steps back and your kick passes, he is actively going to enjoy deliberately "spur kicking" (i.e. with the talon of the boot) your kidneys through the nose, so exposing your back was a no-no.
Sure, kicking the kidneys is very much forbidden in most rulesets, professional MMA is the only exception I can think of...but we always assumed that only techniques that actively hurt the one performing them ought to be forbidden.
The other underlying assumption was that you would have shoes on, BTW, which is why I searched for JKD first:grin:!

I also find in a style like Muay Thai the bigger issue with that when you miss is you are often landing in a position that isn't ideal, while also giving them time to get into an advantageous position. I think generally kicks are higher risk, higher reward (that is how I always view them). You try not to throw a round house unless you think it is going to land or do something for you. Every school is different but a common tactic I learned at my muay thai school was to use the hands as a distraction to help set up the kick to the head. And muay thai kicks especially pack a lot of power. So even something like a double kick to the body can be pretty enervating:

 

AsenRG

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I also find in a style like Muay Thai the bigger issue with that when you miss is you are often landing in a position that isn't ideal, while also giving them time to get into an advantageous position.
Yeah, but that's survivable. I've only ever managed to capitalize on the exposure once in the prescribed manner, but it was instant win, and without me even trying to hit hard, I was just scoring a point...well, that's what I expected to do:shade:.
And it was via handstrike, not a kick. I caught him when he tried to capitalize on the distance and me generally defending with my hands, and land a spinning back kick. Except I spotted him beginning to turn. We were both surprised by the effect.
Most amusingly, this didn't make me throw out spinning back kicks from my arsenal:grin:.

Of course, you should consider that if you do it correctly 1) he's on one leg and thus can't roll with the blow at all, 2) he's probably still turning, no bending in the sole knee that is on the ground is even possible and 3) he doesn't even see it to prepare and you'd be less surprised than I was upon seeing the result of my handwork (which was a total karate-style lunge).

I think generally kicks are higher risk, higher reward (that is how I always view them). You try not to throw a round house unless you think it is going to land or do something for you. Every school is different but a common tactic I learned at my muay thai school was to use the hands as a distraction to help set up the kick to the head. And muay thai kicks especially pack a lot of power. So even something like a double kick to the body can be pretty enervating:
Oh, no doubt about that. As you can see above, I'm actually of the opinion that a lot of that power amounts to overkill if you apply it right:thumbsup:!
I mean, I dropped a guy who had just absorbed several of my body punches without so much as flinching, with one shot. That was the one I applied right, though. So...this and other experiences have lead me to believe that if you get better at spotting or creating such moments, it would be much more fruitful than just working on your power.

IIRC the thought was echoed by Sgt. Rory Miller in his DVD "In Fighting". He noted that several styles have different ways to make their punches hurt, but the Japanese Jiu-Jitsu tends to achieve the most oomph in his pretty extensive experience (20 years as a correctional officer). How? The JJJ way is to twist your joints so you would be bending uncomfortably, and then strike.
I would add that according to the Chinese/Vietnamese styles that prefer this approach as well, you should strike at the stress points, which IME are either at the place of the bend, or at the places where the bend begins and ends, as if you're trying to straighten the body.
For example, look at the point at 0:51 of this clip 1:41 of this clip instead where the uke (receiver, or "show dummy" in Japanese:angel:) is in compromised position. The whole side of his body is being stretched. At this moment a strike in the floating ribs can't be absorbed well... a strike to the head from the side that is turned to the mat is also going to be nasty. Or, likewise, a strike to the knee "coming from the mat" should be able to break it.
How do I know that these are the nasty ways to strike? Simple, that's where the guy's body is moving him in the next second: he's falling sideways to prevent the break.
So the effect of this three gets an added bonus of "his whole body is moving that direction", as you mentioned in the TKD counter.
Same thing can be done via offbalancing BTW. Fenris-77 Fenris-77 could tell us more, I suspect.

Note: the above is clearly not for sport. In fact, I don't particularly want to see it used in MMA, either. Some things are meant to break, pure and simple. And I mean "to produce deliberately the kind of break that ended that fight by accident".

And much as I am for combat sports being "realistic"...honestly, I don't want to see a kid being broken three different ways to Sunday because he engaged in a tough sport. (That, however, doesn't apply to the same kid if he acts as a criminal on the street. Reasons matter).
Also, it would be bad for the sport. Who'd go to watch MMA if a lot of the competitors are just looking for an excuse to break the other guy in 30 seconds or less? "Ya can't even drink a decent beer and they're done!"
(I might have read REH's combat sports-related poetry recently).


Edited because I forgot to post the clip I was talking about.
 
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BedrockBrendan

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Yeah, but that's survivable. I've only ever managed to capitalize on the exposure once in the prescribed manner, but it was instant win, and without me even trying to hit hard, I was just scoring a point...well, that's what I expected to do:shade:.
And it was via handstrike, not a kick. I caught him when he tried to capitalize on the distance and me generally defending with my hands, and land a spinning back kick. Except I spotted him beginning to turn. We were both surprised by the effect.
Most amusingly, this didn't make me throw out spinning back kicks from my arsenal:grin:.

Of course, you should consider that if you do it correctly 1) he's on one leg and thus can't roll with the blow at all, 2) he's probably still turning, no bending in the sole knee that is on the ground is even possible and 3) he doesn't even see it to prepare and you'd be less surprised than I was upon seeing the result of my handwork (which was a total karate-style lunge).


Oh, no doubt about that. As you can see above, I'm actually of the opinion that a lot of that power amounts to overkill if you apply it right:thumbsup:!
I mean, I dropped a guy who had just absorbed several of my body punches without so much as flinching, with one shot. That was the one I applied right, though. So...this and other experiences have lead me to believe that if you get better at spotting or creating such moments, it would be much more fruitful than just working on your power.

IIRC the thought was echoed by Sgt. Rory Miller in his DVD "In Fighting". He noted that several styles have different ways to make their punches hurt, but the Japanese Jiu-Jitsu tends to achieve the most oomph in his pretty extensive experience (20 years as a correctional officer). How? The JJJ way is to twist your joints so you would be bending uncomfortably, and then strike.
I would add that according to the Chinese/Vietnamese styles that prefer this approach as well, you should strike at the stress points, which IME are either at the place of the bend, or at the places where the bend begins and ends, as if you're trying to straighten the body.
For example, look at the point at 0:51 of this clip where the uke (receiver, or "show dummy" in Japanese:angel:) is in compromised position. The whole side of his body is being stretched. At this moment a strike in the floating ribs can't be absorbed well... a strike to the head from the side that is turned to the mat is also going to be nasty. Or, likewise, a strike to the knee "coming from the mat" should be able to break it.
How do I know that these are the nasty ways to strike? Simple, that's where the guy's body is moving him in the next second: he's falling sideways to prevent the break.
So the effect of this three gets an added bonus of "his whole body is moving that direction", as you mentioned in the TKD counter.
Same thing can be done via offbalancing BTW. Fenris-77 Fenris-77 could tell us more, I suspect.

Note: the above is clearly not for sport. In fact, I don't particularly want to see it used in MMA, either. Some things are meant to break, pure and simple. And I mean "to produce deliberately the kind of break that ended that fight by accident".

And much as I am for combat sports being "realistic"...honestly, I don't want to see a kid being broken three different ways to Sunday because he engaged in a tough sport. (That, however, doesn't apply to the same kid if he acts as a criminal on the street. Reasons matter).
Also, it would be bad for the sport. Who'd go to watch MMA if a lot of the competitors are just looking for an excuse to break the other guy in 30 seconds or less? "Ya can't even drink a decent beer and they're done!"
(I might have read REH's combat sports-related poetry recently).

My experience is strictly with sports, so in a real situation, I can't say (though I would be very reluctant to throw a kick in a real fight, just seems risky and I know a person who ended up getting dragged on the ground in that kind of situation after throwing a kick). In terms of power in sports, with kicks, I approach them like punches, only certain moments will I throw a 'power kick' or a 'power punch'. Especially if you are trying to knock someone out, the lighter punches set up the knock out (and you don't want them to know when the power punch or kick is coming). Again this is strictly for sport fighting, but when you are trying to go multiple rounds, it is exhausting to throw power kicks (punches can exhaust you too), and the overall tactics of a sports fight doesn't really require full force all the time, it is better to feel out the opponent, land more graceful and quick hits, then get them with the power shot when it will be most effective. Sometimes though you might want to start throwing power shots just to intimidate someone.

I live in a somewhat high crime area and I wouldn't want to have to put my boxing or muay thai, or anything else I learned, to the test on the street. In a totally fair fight, against one person your own size, it might be useful. But most things I've seen happen in the street are not like that (and people often use numbers against you or have weapons, possibly a gun). I've heard of some recent cases in the area for example where people get robbed while they are eating somewhere, and its usually multiple people, and the first blow is with brass knuckles when the person isn't expecting it. I don't think anything I have done sports wise would prepare me for getting hit with brass knuckles while I am eating at a table. Plus at this point I am much more prone to dizziness when I get hit. Can't imagine what brass knuckles would feel like. You probably want a mix of self defense courses, full contact sports fighting (or some form of full contact sparring), and knowledge of weapons if you are planning on using martial arts for self defense. I am guessing dipping into a lot of different places would be useful too to get a broad range of knowledge.

I tried learning at self defense oriented schools here and there (I've been to a lot of different gyms over the years). I think at the end of the day, I just like the sport aspect of it (training, sparring, etc).
 

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For example, look at the point at 0:51 of this clip where the uke (receiver, or "show dummy" in Japanese:angel:) is in compromised position. The whole side of his body is being stretched. At this moment a strike in the floating ribs can't be absorbed well... a strike to the head from the side that is turned to the mat is also going to be nasty. Or, likewise, a strike to the knee "coming from the mat" should be able to break it.

Which video is this in (a lot of videos been posted and I am curious about this one)
 

AsenRG

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Which video is this in (a lot of videos been posted and I am curious about this one)
The one I forgot to post, obviously:grin:!
And I can't quite find it now, it was from another device (and not one of my regular channels). So try 1:41 on this, same explanation.
 

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My experience is strictly with sports, so in a real situation, I can't say (though I would be very reluctant to throw a kick in a real fight, just seems risky and I know a person who ended up getting dragged on the ground in that kind of situation after throwing a kick). In terms of power in sports, with kicks, I approach them like punches, only certain moments will I throw a 'power kick' or a 'power punch'. Especially if you are trying to knock someone out, the lighter punches set up the knock out (and you don't want them to know when the power punch or kick is coming). Again this is strictly for sport fighting, but when you are trying to go multiple rounds, it is exhausting to throw power kicks (punches can exhaust you too), and the overall tactics of a sports fight doesn't really require full force all the time, it is better to feel out the opponent, land more graceful and quick hits, then get them with the power shot when it will be most effective. Sometimes though you might want to start throwing power shots just to intimidate someone.

I live in a somewhat high crime area and I wouldn't want to have to put my boxing or muay thai, or anything else I learned, to the test on the street. In a totally fair fight, against one person your own size, it might be useful. But most things I've seen happen in the street are not like that (and people often use numbers against you or have weapons, possibly a gun). I've heard of some recent cases in the area for example where people get robbed while they are eating somewhere, and its usually multiple people, and the first blow is with brass knuckles when the person isn't expecting it. I don't think anything I have done sports wise would prepare me for getting hit with brass knuckles while I am eating at a table. Plus at this point I am much more prone to dizziness when I get hit. Can't imagine what brass knuckles would feel like. You probably want a mix of self defense courses, full contact sports fighting (or some form of full contact sparring), and knowledge of weapons if you are planning on using martial arts for self defense. I am guessing dipping into a lot of different places would be useful too to get a broad range of knowledge.

I tried learning at self defense oriented schools here and there (I've been to a lot of different gyms over the years). I think at the end of the day, I just like the sport aspect of it (training, sparring, etc).
Nah, man, I know all this. You can expect me to remember those things after so many discussions:
1) I know you're interested in the sport side and that's fine. In fact, that's what I'm doing now, too, sport BJJ, and I totally own up to it. It's fun, period:thumbsup:.
2) Nothing prepares you for brass knuckles from behind, except learning to spot trouble. They don't feel like anything, until (and if) you wake up:shade:. Also, that's the reason I've always said that a Fighter without Spot and Listen as class skills is called "incompetent moron who never gets to use his skills for real":shade:.
3) I really, really don't want to use any skills on the street, either. I have never trained such skills in order to use them, I always trained so I won't have to...sorry, it's a cliche, but it's true. And there's nothing mystical about it: people that know you're willing to throw down are less likely to attack. If they think you might even be competent, they're even less willing. If you seem competent and seem to be catching their idea of blindsiding you, a lot of them suddenly remember they have an appointment (often a dentist appointment, which is a Freudian slip, if you ask me:evil:).

And finally, that was just to illustrate why you don't want to expose your back when kicking.
Because if you get struck or swept and fall down, in a sport, that might mean someone is waiting for you to get up or (in other sports, or the same one) someone is trying to choke, armbar, or ground and pound you now. But he is going to release the subs when you tap out, or stop the GnP when the referee pulls him.

But in my perspective, while these are totally possible outcomes in a street altercation (it's not a fight, usually), they're not the only ones...and they're made worse because the guy might not stop the choke, armbar, or GnP even after you pass out or your limb breaks.
Furthermore, there are three other possible developments: the guy starts to soccer kick you with boots (and might not be alone, in fact, new people might "join in on the fun"), the guy falls on you and tries to stab you, or a combo of some of the previous ones.
So my point is that some things might be actually worse for the sport aspect, and "never striking with so much power you'd have to turn if you miss" is probably one of those things...it's limiting, and such strikes actually work very well in sports. We've all seen it.
But "never strike with so much power you'd have to turn if you miss" is also be a well-intended advice I've received from people vastly more experienced than me, who knew I wasn't training solely for the sport aspect. (And when I say "vastly", I mean "having scores of street altercations behind them, being cops, bouncers or the like").
 

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Well, since off balancing the heart and soul of Judo technique, yeah, I might be able say something about it. :grin: I've noticed through doing a bunch of other marital arts that the general theory also applies to most arts in terms of footwork and opportunity even if it's not made explicit. Judo's just a little more hands on getting them off balance (well, a little more hands on generally, obviously).

My experience wit a lot of arts is that they don't pay nearly enough attention to footwork, which is probably a function of many schools emphasizing technique and forms over sparring, and rigid traditional forms over the kind of physical bricolage necessary in a more free flowing melee. I have some personal experience with fighting in the real world, and despite rather a lot of training and coaching over the years, when people ask me about it I generally tell them that their wallet isn't worth a broken jaw or worse.
 

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Nah, man, I know all this. You can expect me to remember those things after so many discussions:

I'm forgetful. I didn't realize I was repeating myself:smile:

And finally, that was just to illustrate why you don't want to expose your back when kicking.
Because if you get struck or swept and fall down, in a sport, that might mean someone is waiting for you to get up or (in other sports, or the same one) someone is trying to choke, armbar, or ground and pound you now. But he is going to release the subs when you tap out, or stop the GnP when the referee pulls him.

But in my perspective, while these are totally possible outcomes in a street altercation (it's not a fight, usually), they're not the only ones...and they're made worse because the guy might not stop the choke, armbar, or GnP even after you pass out or your limb breaks.
Furthermore, there are three other possible developments: the guy starts to soccer kick you with boots (and might not be alone, in fact, new people might "join in on the fun"), the guy falls on you and tries to stab you, or a combo of some of the previous ones.
So my point is that some things might be actually worse for the sport aspect, and "never striking with so much power you'd have to turn if you miss" is probably one of those things...it's limiting, and such strikes actually work very well in sports. We've all seen it.
But "never strike with so much power you'd have to turn if you miss" is also be a well-intended advice I've received from people vastly more experienced than me, who knew I wasn't training solely for the sport aspect. (And when I say "vastly", I mean "having scores of street altercations behind them, being cops, bouncers or the like").

One area where I think you see this sort of thing is gloves. I can punch as hard as I want wearing gloves and wraps. But without them, I am more likely to break my hand if I hit someone in the head with too much force. And I am so conditioned to striking with gloves I probably would instinctively hit hard without thinking about it.
 

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Well, since off balancing the heart and soul of Judo technique, yeah, I might be able say something about it. :grin: I've noticed through doing a bunch of other marital arts that the general theory also applies to most arts in terms of footwork and opportunity even if it's not made explicit. Judo's just a little more hands on getting them off balance (well, a little more hands on generally, obviously).
...I see what you did there:tongue:!
And yes, the general theory also applies to other arts. But getting the practitioners to explain it might be akin to pulling teeth, IME...and the sad part is that it's not even due to unwillingness. They've just learned to do it instinctively, but never considered it a separate topic.

Also, any experience with following kuzushi with atemi, which was the topic that made me mention you in the thread:grin:?

My experience wit a lot of arts is that they don't pay nearly enough attention to footwork, which is probably a function of many schools emphasizing technique and forms over sparring, and rigid traditional forms over the kind of physical bricolage necessary in a more free flowing melee. I have some personal experience with fighting in the real world, and despite rather a lot of training and coaching over the years, when people ask me about it I generally tell them that their wallet isn't worth a broken jaw or worse.
No doubt. Footwork is IME the most important among the often neglected things. Amusingly, some fencers manage to neglect it, which has always filled me with wonder at the ability of the human spirit to be negligent:shade:!

I'm forgetful. I didn't realize I was repeating myself:smile:



One area where I think you see this sort of thing is gloves. I can punch as hard as I want wearing gloves and wraps. But without them, I am more likely to break my hand if I hit someone in the head with too much force. And I am so conditioned to striking with gloves I probably would instinctively hit hard without thinking about it.
Yeah, totally...but if you only knew how hard it is to explain this to some of the guys at the school! "If I strike you full force, you're going to be down, regardless of whether I get a broken hand":thumbsup:!
You? If you need to punch, get something to grip. Even a lighter would be better, not because of the weight (that's negligible) but to increase the solidity!

I always want to tell them that I might be, or I might not (any force that goes towards you breaking your hand isn't going towards hurting me, it's a zero-sum game...), but are they really fine with potentially losing part of the mobility of that hand for months:shock:?

Then I see they're seeing a white belt and not listening. They might start paying attention in a year or five when they get used to me. And regardless of whether they listen, it's still best to hope they'd never need to do it.

Amusingly, there are also some guys who are meeting for "out of class" sparring, and they've observed (or someone pointed it to them) already that in bare-knuckle fights, the punching movements are a bit different. So there is hope!
 

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I've fenced as well, and I can confirm you theory. :grin:

I've actually spent some time trying to training myself out of the tendency to strike with a closed fist. My fists aren't particularly conditioned anyway, so all I'm going to do it break something. I find an open hand approach, focused on palm strikes, maybe some hammer strikes, and elbows suits me better. I try to only use a closed fist on soft bits like the gut. The open hand segues better into control and throws anyway.
 

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First, here's an announcement that would be fine in am RPG.

If you can't read it, it's in both Bulgarian and English (we do think about the foreigners): "Alert! A gang of gypsies is attacking people who are by themselves in the general area of Ruski pametnik in Sofia! Exercise caution!" (I cleaned it up a bit, it says "group" and not "gang" and "have caution").
And a sentence that was missing in the English translation: "The police are ignoring the multiple signals".

Now guys, take a guess: given that it's a largely gun-less place, what would such events look like?
Also, I think I saw those guys, but if so, maybe there were too many people nearby, or maybe they liked me too much:shade:.
 

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AsenRG

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Second, I got distracted by the news, guys.
https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/lists/news-leandro-lo-dead-mma-community-reacts-2
BJJ Champion Shot Dead At 33 At A Concert In Brazil

I think you all understand. I've only heard of the late guy, but may he rest in peace!

I'd note, though: he won in an altercation and then didn't leave. End result, he got shot in the head, twice...
That's sad. Like, one of the first things I've been told about real-world violence, at a kung-fu school at that, wasn't where to punch. It was "if you get into a conflict, win or lose, even if you ended up making up, leave as fast as you can (just take care that nobody dies if you KOed anybody, though)!"
And if I had any doubts, the explanation was "the place to wait for cops is at the police station, not at the crime scene, but you don't talk while you're there - you call the trainer and he's going to send you a lawyer". (The trainer was a cop, himself).
 

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I've fenced as well, and I can confirm you theory. :grin:
Which one? "There are fencers that don't train footwork" one, the "lots of people can't explain what they got instinctively" one, or the "kuzushi+atemi for best results" one? (As a separate note, my idea of strking doesn't make a difference between striking with or without a weapon...and lately, between handfighting and using a weapon, either:shock:).

I've actually spent some time trying to training myself out of the tendency to strike with a closed fist. My fists aren't particularly conditioned anyway, so all I'm going to do it break something. I find an open hand approach, focused on palm strikes, maybe some hammer strikes, and elbows suits me better. I try to only use a closed fist on soft bits like the gut. The open hand segues better into control and throws anyway.
My fists are probably better conditioned (more time spent staying on fists and punching hard items) but I still don't use fists to the head. Well, to be completely precise, I actually use palms, forearms, wrist strikes, elbows, hammers, "sword hands" (both sides of the shuto), "phoenix eyes/dragons' heads", fists to the body, and "tiger claws", "leopard paws" and "demon fists":tongue:! The latter three are surprisingly useful in grappling, too...not as strikes*, but to grab (tiger) or to wiggle between the body and the hand!

Mind you, the long list is not because I needed them, it's because I've got them in muscle memory from kata. A lot of them only have one possible use for me (wrist strike, phoenix eye, and dragon's head). Might not be very efficient, but if you've paid it due time, it works.
And yet I find the simple palm, elbow and forearm a much more formidable weapon combo, including for setting up a throw or lock. Go explain:grin:! Admittedly, it's actually a long wave of motion (sometimes up to 2 seconds!) where I'm using a strike to set up a disbalancing move**, which sets up a strike or lock**, and any of them sets the other, and the lock can also return towards another strike...and it is all about me waiting for the moment when the opponent loses concentration for a moment, the "suki".
But the important part is to keep him out of balance, mental and/or physical (preferably both)!



*I had a long laugh yesterday with Ryan Hall (with, not at). He stated in his "open elbow" instructional you should push the head, not slap it. "If you slap my head, I'm going to fuck you up".
Why? As he puts it "if you're striking, you're striking, doesn't matter it's not a closed fist". And in his case that means you just told an UFC fighter "it's fighting time".
Then he added that of course, it's fine to do in grappling competition, but... you should "at least own up" to what you're actually doing.

My reaction: "I know the guys because of whom you're saying that":angel:.

**Which might set up a throw, but only if it's really successful. I've got a lot to learn about throws, yet.
 

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Last night, I managed to stretch the training time to 3 full hours. Magnesium was my friend*, though.

How? Well, first I joined the kids' class. That's one hour where I couldn't skip and had to give a good example.

Then I joined the adults' no-gi practice. OK, I skipped the warm-up...or most of it. I did some light exercises to avoid going cold, though (actually shrimps, bridges and technical get-ups, but with longer rests between them).

Then we went for no-gi...which was heavily wrestling-influenced. To the point that we had a guest instructor who is obviously with a wrestling background.

I managed to apply a kimura from NS, which was nice...though not much of a win. The guy told me I've been the one who explained to him how to avoid getting swept from guard, so I figure I had a bit more experience, though we're both no-stripes white belts!

Then we did the formal end of the session, and me and another guy remained to roll around some more.
That's how my practice ended up being twice as long as usual...:grin:

It was great fun (although I got armbarred once, near the end) and I want to do that again, though:tongue:! In fact, it was quite cool. Both of us did our best to retain the guard or get out from under dominant positions (he was better, but then I was running on the last of my batteries). Managed to make him turtle for a bit, too...except then I discovered I don't remember what to do against a turtle (my "street" solution would have been to elbow the back of his neck or head, but that's not applicable to a BJJ roll in any place where I'd care to take my kids to train).

I need to work on my front headlock position, too. A lot of the guys either have wrestling-style (sambo included) training, or like wrestling-style escapes...which all begin with turtling, and often continue by grabbing the legs. This one was a stellar example of the tendency.
Nothing wrong with that, I did it a lot in the same roll (though I was also trying to re-establish my guard or use an escape).
In fact, I managed to land an uppa escape from bottom mount...but I used it when he was trying to pass to my back or apply Americana. Not sure which one he was going for, I just recognised that if I put my forearm on the arm he is trying to sneak under my arm, lean as much of my weight as I can on it, and do a half-bridge, he is going to roll over me and to his back.
Well, he managed to reguard soon after that, but it was fun!

You can see more about my supplements in the fitness thread...but then even ancient Chinese Daoist and Buddhist monks/warriors were taking ("house-made") supplements, and their recipes were even closely-guarded secrets, so why wouldn't I:angel:?


And so I wouldn't make it all about me, here's a Judo-focused clip that should spur some discussion. It actually answers one of the questions I asked Fenris-77 Fenris-77 earlier (near the end). Though I'm sure L Lundgren and all the rest of you would also appreciate it!
 
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Ah well...might as well add my training update.
So, I got to play with S, a judoka with reasonable experience (three years) who had switched to BJJ since a couple of months. I want to roll again with him! He's strong, tough, near my weight, knows kuzushi better than me (both from bottom and from top), and does not hesitate to use all the submissions that I don't expect from a judoka (kimura, americana, guillotine). Surprisingly, he didn't attempt a single armbar/juji gatame (though he attempted a straight armlock)!
Yeah, he's probably out of my current league, but he liked rolling with me, too - at least enough so to request a second roll (as he put it, the other white belts were too lightweight for him and made him worried...I'm slightly heavier and definitely can relate).
The funniest part is, he actually made me realize that due to playing mostly with lighter people in a controlled setting, I've begun to start slow and light. That...didn't fly against him:grin:!
I adapted in the second roll, mostly, and managed to get on top of him and out-grip-fight him enough to prevent all his sweeps for over a minute...and his attempts actually taught me a bit about gradually breaking the opponent's balance, I think. Either way, the fact that he was in a (slippery, by the time) rashguard vs my gi didn't exactly help, but I managed at least that much:thumbsup:!
 

AsenRG

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Also, I was on a grappling camp. There were people from at least 5 different cities, and at least three different schools. So it was quite entertaining.

I did 10 BJJ practice sessions in a week. Hope to catch them all and do conditioning next year.
OTOH, some people did like 3 sessions, so I was working out more:shade:!

It was fun. Predictably, I locked some guys who were younger and fitter, as long as they weren't better technically. Some of those that I ragdolled were even outclassing me when it came to number of years of training...but what can you do? OK, I guess they've been in the kids group before, which would explain some peculiarities. I expect them to progress fast, either way!
Either way, I just want to stress that in no case did I try to crush their spirits by not letting them any room to attempt a technique. I didn't try and tire them out, either (for example, while in kesa gatame, I was resting most of my weight on the floor). Don't know why, but some people on YouTube seem to expect that...I wonder if that's how it goes in their schools:shock:?

Anyways, I also told the guys who wanted to listen everything that I know about some specific submissions I like to use. In return, I got some very nice pointers from guys who managed to apply submissions on me!

Being in great shape was a recurring theme among guys there. A sambo guy lifted me from the ground while I was in butterfly guard, and he threw me on my back...I weigh about 100 kgs, and he basically bent over and lifted me!
He didn't throw me from a height, though, which was a good thing, because he still knocked the wind out of me (that was just him passing my guard).
That specific guy is actually a friend now (we were sharing a room for a week)...and he works as a bouncer, and has at least one MMA match so far (he got KOed in the last one, which everyone was commenting on, not sure if he's got more matches - I'm sure he has competed in kick-boxing).
His advice for street vs sport: "don't mistake the sport for the street". Starting with the issue of gloves and closed guard, BTW:angel:!
 
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