The Martial Arts Thread

[AsenRG]

I'm just posting two playlists before I leave for training.



After returning: I had kick-boxing and BJJ again. Forgot my teeth guard, so had to skip the KB sparring, but overall, I'm feeling quite well.

The KB trainer (who also trains BJJ) is nice and agreed to discuss my preference for extended guard. His conclusion, after I showed him my defensive system, was "it might work, as long as you're moving forward". I immediately pointed out that he has never seen me taking a back step in sparring, and I think he realized that this is absolutely true.
Of course, he also added that it can still fail...but then immediately pointed out himself that no defense system is unbreakable. I think he's curious and wants to see it himself.
I should probably get some time to practice in front of a mirror to groove in the trajectories before next Saturday (they might be kinda rusty).. And I shouldn't forget my teeth protector.

I only participated on one roll this session, with Martin - but then I was feeling kinda tired at this point (and I'd only get to see a doctor for my shoulder on Monday). Besides, I didn't want to overdo it, so I could have some gas left in the tank for tomorrow's training sessions!

And last but not least, because we're on an RPG forum after all: here's an article that notes how much of what we do isn't in the muscle, but in the mind and spirit. Hey, it was in my news feed...sometimes those are good for something!

Fighting More Than One Opponent

Abu Dhabi is the location for the first post-worlds grand slam. There’s a big entry, the usual melting pot of Olympic and world medallists, plus youngsters and those trying their luck from neighbouring nations.

www.ijf.org

The relevant part is where it notes that the eventual winner of the judo match in question seemed like a different person after seeing that he can dominate in at least one area (in ne-waza). That acted to him as a trigger, the author of the article speculates.

Now, how many systems would have accounted for such a change? I struggle to come with any. Maybe my Cepheus hack could do it. Exalted 3 could as well. The Dungeon grappling rules (for grappling in OSR/d20 rulesets) or the system in Dragon Heresy just might get it...or rather, get close. Finally, Legends of the Wulin could as well, with Chi Conditions.
Anyone else? Maybe some PbtA with a "take +1 forward"?

So, how comes many of those systems are considered "narrativist"?

 

[AsenRG]

First successful use of Deep Half Guard was noted yesterday.
And on the same day, I watched a clip where J. Glover explained that he was originally calling the deep half guard "Oh Shit He'S Gonna Mount Me Hold On To That Leg For Dear Life guard". I feel like this is the best guard name ever, but I guess Deep Half won the brevity points!

Edited to add: Oh, and he mentioned that he likes that when he gets to Deep Half, there's really only one move that he needs to do - turn the knee in and down. Then he has three responses depending on how the opponent reacts.
Now, see my post upthread about having a "default move"?


I keep trying to explain the single leg sweep to Martin. Guess he'd need more time, much as I'm trying to accelerate it for him...he doesn't try to get an angle, and isn't trying to deny me an angle when I'm doing it. Which means I can take him over more or less at will.
Granted, that's probably because he's trying to lock up a choke or kimura while I'm going for the sweep (he has tried guillotine, d'Arce and anaconda chokes)...but really, he'd be better off if I couldn't get him on his back while he's trying.
And yes, I've told him so. Again, new skills need time. I'm sure I'm repeating similar mistakes which would exasperate a more experienced practitioner, too.

We also studied shin-to-shin guard on Sunday...which is like butterfly, but your legs are crossed with your shin against his shin. I like the progression we were taught, which was a 4-items flowchart - we usually do less moves in one training session, in order to get more reps, but one of the purple belts was running the training, and I've noticed that he always tries to give us a more or less complete system.
I'm not sure which approach is superior, and it probably depends on the position. Shin-to-shin is, well, open guard - and more open positions usually mean that you need more moves, because the opponent has more options for responding.
In comparison, deep half is an extremely closed position, with very few options for getting out. In fact, there are probably none, you just have to find a way to block the sweep (or leglock, or backtake, whatever), free your leg, and turn 90 degrees. Then you're in mount.

 

[AsenRG]

I did train today for longer than usual for Sunday. Today was yoga day, obviously - started with yoga, continued with murder yoga a.k.a. BJJ...and I remained for extra after the class, so about 5 hours in total. It was great rest, especially on a mental level, and I totally needed that after yesterday!
I would have stayed longer, but I had to buy food for the guinea pigs. I actually feel a connection to them today - because I became (voluntarily) the guinea pig of the purple belt who was running the practice. He had issues with one move that brown belts were doing, and I was, of course, ready to assist him to the best of my ability. That is, he only had to correct me three or four times (after giving me top position to begin with), so I could approximate the pressure of his usual opponents...
The problem was "how to attack an opponent who is trying to get away from your half-guard".
OTOH, he thinks he's actually managed to find a solution that might work on the brown belts, so I guess we'll see within a couple of days, most likely tomorrow! Amusingly, it was based on one of my suggestions (with lots of refinements from him), which amounted more or less to "pick just the right moment to switch to turtle".

As an aside, Doni is my kind of guy - he actually warned me to tell him when I get bored because he really doesn't grow bored easily when it comes to grappling, and could go on and on. My reply was "I don't get bored easily, either". What was it about birds of a flock?
So we stayed a couple of hours longer after the end of the regular practice... And, as stated above, I'd have stayed longer than that, but didn't want to keep the little furballs hungry (which, as it turned out, hasn't been an issue, but ah well).

On the technical side, I managed to hit my first armbar/juji-gatame today. But since I'm never doing things the standard way, I hit it the way David Avellan recommends on YouTube...from turtle.
Yeah, not a position I associated with armbars until today, but it works!
I also played with two more experienced guys, and got submitted more than once...but at least one of those was due to a scissor choke. First time anyone tries a scissor choke on me!
Actually I didn't get choked, but it had turned into a facelock, so I tapped out promptly.

 

[AsenRG]

I like the martial arts side of YouTube more and more lately. Why?

Because some people actually make research for their videos, and end up with stuff that makes sense.
It also helps that this is something I've been saying for years. Obviously they have never heard of me, so that's unlikely to have inspired them - but when two people have reached the same conclusion...
Well, the title of the first clip should explain what I mean. "Kung-fu is 90% wrestling".


And then you could actually look at this one (not necessary to get the point, though)



My other line which got confirmed? "Aikido techniques make no sense without weapons, and suddenly starts making sense once you (the Aikido player) have an weapon and are trying to use it, or you suspect the other opponent might pull one - later, if not now". You can just watch the first clip, but watch the whole of it...


The latter is also a good thing to watch for perspective and when it comes to RPG combat!

And last but not least...and I'm sure BedrockBrendan would enjoy this clip a lot (and probably wouldn't be the only one):


So the real question is - what would you rate the body armour worn here as, in D&D terms?

 

[AsenRG]

Well, just a short note today, and good advice to give to young guys...not sure if any read this forum, but nonetheless!

If you're new to a martial art, don't make comments like "are you grappling with your grandkids now" when the trainer of the kid's group is grappling with an enthusiastic student. In fact, don't make those even if you're an old hand...but by then you should probably know that much.
I mean, you could get someone who could be your father to invite you to a short grapple. And it's going to be a short one, believe me.

That's the comment a young guy in our gym did last night, while the trainer was grappling with First Son. I invited him to play with me, started on the bottom, and kimuraed him in under 30 seconds, of course. I was tempted to try a baratoplata or tarikoplata, but decided it might be risky with a new guy.

Then I explained to him how to do the kimura, and accidentally mentioned that I'm over a quarter century older than him, just for reference.
Hopefully he got the message that "respect is important".

 

[MoonHunter]

See in Fencing (and all the Olympic blade sports), you respect the older guy. If physical conditioning is met, the neural twitch is the big thing. So the older guy still doing this is the most dangerous person out there. In a short bit of rounds, the older guy will crush you. (You might get lucky if it is later rounds, you might have an active chance).

In our case, it is time in play that makes the difference. That twelve year old that has been around blades and using blades since they were eight will crush that twenty something with a few months in. So you need to chat around. We don't have belts to determine ranking, it is by skill and points on the runway. You eventually figure out where you should be in the line.

 

[AsenRG]

See in Fencing (and all the Olympic blade sports), you respect the older guy. If physical conditioning is met, the neural twitch is the big thing. So the older guy still doing this is the most dangerous person out there. In a short bit of rounds, the older guy will crush you. (You might get lucky if it is later rounds, you might have an active chance).

In our case, it is time in play that makes the difference. That twelve year old that has been around blades and using blades since they were eight will crush that twenty something with a few months in. So you need to chat around. We don't have belts to determine ranking, it is by skill and points on the runway. You eventually figure out where you should be in the line.

Totally true, but then I find that this is how it goes for most martial arts.
I mean, Kade Ruotolo won the "Grappling Olympics", a.k.a. 2022 ADCC World Championship in the 77kg division, at the age of 19...
But he's known to have started training at age 3, and his brother is also an active athlete in the same sport. I can guess how much they've grappled outside the gym, so he probably has more like 32 years of experience.

Also, there's a thing I've noticed in different styles: some players, even in the same gym, would focus on what I term "whole-body improvisational game". Imagine Conan charging, swaying aside, and beating you in a fist fight. If you throw him, he'd roll with it and do whatever works at the moment. He couldn't probably replicate it twice in a row, he's just following the basic principles of fighting.

Others focus on what I'd term "a timing and strategy game". They typically isolate the specific positions they find themselves in the most, and drill them relentlessly. Until you get them outside of their area of expertise, they beat you with repetitions...because you're trying to improvise answers that he has already memorized, of course he's going to give them faster than you.

And, of course, with experience you move from the first to the second category.
The problem with this approach is only one: the more you train in this way, the narrower your area of focus gets. That's how you get from specialization in cutting to specialization in a specific strike, to a specialization in a specific strike in a specific location, to a specific way to deliver said strike to the aforementioned location - say, by beating you off the bind...
In grappling, the same process works as specialization in attacks from the mount, to specializing in joint locks from mount, to specializing in juji-gatame from mount - for example, Ronda Rousey.
So...if someone finds a way to block this game, you're not going to be much better than most other guys. Ronda Rousey is another stellar example here - though admittedly she also had a weakness in her punch defense.
But it's really hard to stop such specialists from implementing their game, and they're usually very good at the adjacent areas as well, so in most cases, you just lose to their specialty move...as all the people who lost to Ronda Rousey can attest.


Or at least that's how it works in my observations.

 

[AsenRG]

I got some nice training yesterday, ending with 3 rolls out of a total of 4...which was some nice exercise.
I managed to get tapped with a compression lock on my chest (do-jime in Judo terms, Fenris-77 probably knows it as it's a forbidden technique in Judo). Given that last week I got tapped by a scissor choke (though it worked the wrong way, as I mentioned upthread), I guess I'm now learning first-hand more and more of the lesser-known moves!

Yeah, that's it. I'm not being tapped by low-percentage moves, I'm just learning them on my own body! (And in support of this, I'd like to point out that I'd already prevented the attempts for much higher-percentage moves from the same position, like armbars and triangles).

OTOH, I did my first "conscious" back-take - as in, I knew it would end in a back-take, I expected it to work...and it wasn't against a one-month white belt.
All my three previous successes at getting to this position (yes, three times in over a year) were failing at least one of the above conditions.
Unsurprisingly for most of you who've been following all my rambling about Kimuras and Kimura grips, I did it via a Giftwrap - which is a Kimura grip from the side, where you get your supporting hand around his head as well, then pull. That last detail is crucial, as a French blue belt pointed out to me (I had been appointed to translate for him, so we drilled together).


Speaking of lesser-known moves, I'm trying to expand on the Kimura trap system and combine it with the butterfly guard, half-guard and Williams' guard. From there, it should be possible to get either a 2-on-1, Kimura or Reverse Kimura grip, which should allow for either a backtake, or a pass to the leg-assisted shoulder cranks (Omoplata, Monoplata, and the three "named" ones - Baratoplata, Tarikoplata and Marceloplata).
But I haven't been working too much from the bottom, lately, so this is still untested. In the last rolls, I tended to manage getting to the top relatively quickly (via single leg on the ground, a.k.a. "Butt Single"), which BTW is totally where I wanted to be!
It's simply much more energy-efficient to play the top game, and for a 40+yo like me, that's an important consideration...that's how I managed to get three rolls in, despite this being the second practice session for the day (I started with a 1hr yoga class).

OTOH, it also means I didn't get much time to experiment with my bottom game. And I don't even know how to apply those from the top...
So I'm waiting for someone who wants to do more of the "scripted" rolls...weird, how many people want to play on top, but refuse when I suggest to let them play on top! What, do they feel they "didn't earn it" or something?

I mean, I could just "pull guard", but that's not a move I like doing. And even when I do "pull Butterfly guard", my first instinct is to try and get on top. I want to drill this because getting on top isn't likely to work every time, and because I find that learning submissions from the bottom actually helps clarify important details. I learned all* the submissions that I know from the bottom - except the ones I already knew how to apply from standing.
And then learning them from the bottom helped clarify important details.

*The Americana and the straight armlock would be two exceptions, here, but I learned both simply as a "back-up" to applying the Kimura (when you're on top, and the opponent is trying to defend the Kimura while being on bottom). And I'd already learned the Kimura from the bottom.
Also, it turned out yesterday that the Americana is a move I can't really apply, at least not against an opponent with flexible shoulders, so this actually supports my previous statement!

 

[Fenris-77]

I'm not all that worried about 'forbidden techniques' in Judo, and actually instruct many of them (although not the lock mentioned above). Judo has cut a lot of techniques out simply to manage their television profile (how watchable it is) and I feel it's been to the detriment of the art.

 

[AsenRG]

I'm not all that worried about 'forbidden techniques' in Judo, and actually instruct many of them (although not the lock mentioned above). Judo has cut a lot of techniques out simply to manage their television profile (how watchable it is) and I feel it's been to the detriment of the art.

I agree 100%, man - and it's not a forbidden lock in our gym. It was totally legit. I just didn't know how to get out of it, and after my first attempt failed, I tapped, just to prevent broken ribs.
As I've said before, no locks are forbidden in the Open Mat gym, except spine and neck cranks (for obvious reasons*) and then only when done by themselves. So a reverse guillotine would be a no-no (it's a pure crank), but a guillotine which also cranks the neck is fine. In fact, the so-called "modern" guillotine does both when applied by the book.

Also, I just edited the previous post while you were posting. You might want to read it - I'm curious whether you also find that kansetsu-waza is best instructed from the bottom positions first.

*If it's not obvious for someone - because neck and spine cranks are actually locks, just applied on different portions of the spine (which is a joint).
If someone tries to get out of a strangle and fails, he might manage to tap, or he might go to sleep, wakes up, and we all tell him he shouldn't keep fighting when the strangle had been locked.
If someone tries to get out of a lock and fails, the worst case scenario is that said joint might get stressed to the point of breaking. Which is usually possible to recover from with contemporary medicine...but when the joint is your spine, you really, really don't want to risk a bad break!

 

[Fenris-77]

Honestly, because Judo doesn't focus on kansetsu-waza the same way some other arts do I'm probably not the right guy to ask. I generally instruct each from both top and bottom, but it depends on the technique. What I usually do is instruct it explicitly from the two or perhaps three most likely start locations and then the students figure out wider applications through experience. I do teach a handful from at least one standing start, but that's not really Judo's thing, at least not in terms of tournament coaching. I was also never the submission expert at our club, that would be our technical director, so my overall experience coaching bars is somewhat limited. I'm capable, but no expert.

 

[AsenRG]

Honestly, because Judo doesn't focus on kansetsu-waza the same way some other arts do I'm probably not the right guy to ask. I generally instruct each from both top and bottom, but it depends on the technique.

Well, man, you're teaching other people...I'm learning those as basic moves. We can safely assume that your juji-gatame and sankaku are an order of magnitude better than mine.
I mean, yeah, the average BJJ player would have better kansetsu-waza than the average judoka (at the cost of worse throws, usually), but that doesn't apply when there's a serious disparity in levels!

What I usually do is instruct it explicitly from the two or perhaps three most likely start locations and then the students figure out wider applications through experience.

As an aside, I've come to the conclusion that this right here is the biggest advantage of grappling arts. Putting it simply, the method where you learn from experience works better when you can experiment without your ears ringing afterwards if your hunch was wrong, and using full speed and power...

I do teach a handful from at least one standing start, but that's not really Judo's thing, at least not in terms of tournament coaching.

It's not really BJJ's thing, either. It's my thing, though!
The number of times where I've applied a standing submission still probably outweighs the number of submissions I've been able to apply in ne-waza...though admittedly, the difference would be shrinking rapidly.

I was also never the submission expert at our club, that would be our technical director, so my overall experience coaching bars is somewhat limited. I'm capable, but no expert.

Yeah, see above. I'm pretty sure any Judo black belt could teach me a lot regarding the submissions you actually use.
Besides, it's all* about the kuzushi**, I've concluded long ago, and the same applies to BJJ as well. If the guy hadn't managed to unbalance me, even the do-jime wouldn't have worked. He pulled me forward before it, though, and I couldn't turn to the side.


*Even striking is best applied after kuzushi, IME. Amusingly, I got that from a book on Japanese heiho ("Secrets of Japanese Strategy", I recommend it), and then testing proved that it worked great. Not quoting the exact text, but the author says "the external approach is to get the right moment and apply the technique, but in this, superior strength and speed help a lot - the internal approach is to break the balance of the opponent, and then to apply the same technique when the opponent can't use his strength and speed, even if they're superior". Keep in mind, he's talking about strategy primarily as it pertains to swordfighting, there...and only then illustrates it with examples from karate and judo.
But then, if you can cut an opponent when he's out of balance, he has a hard time defending, and you're safe from the biggest hurdle a swordfighter must overcome - the possibility of double-kill! Same thing with kansetsu-waza, what strength does one have to resist a submission when one is out of balance? None.
And I'm not even mentioning throws, the term kuzushi was defined by Kano Jigoro in reference to throws, first and foremost...
Even more amusingly, it took me years to realize how useful that tidbit was and to start applying it. And it only happened because a partner mentioned that one of my moves makes it really hard to resist any follow-up attacks...which I hadn't realized, myself. Ah, the memories!

**Disbalancing, for everyone else.

 

[AsenRG]

The above bits about "Secrets of the Japanese Strategy" just gave me an idea about a Post-apocalyptic scenario: in an area that remained without decent firearms*, the PCs are on the look-out for a secret martial arts manual rumoured to make the one who studies it invincible! In fact, one of the PCs' nemesis had been to this area some time ago and returned as an invincible swordsman...
I mean, you should set it in a PA setting with limited firearms, akin to "Into the Borderlands", of course. Or swordfighting should be a ritual thing. Or the PC just might be from a tribe where the strongest warrior is elected in a competition where firearms aren't allowed.
I know, totally unlikely to please most American gamers...

Set it around the area of a big public library and you can actually litter the area with such manuals.
I'd be tempted to make said manual an unexpected one. Musashi's Five Rings would be too obvious, but the aforementioned "Secrets of the Japanese Strategy", Yagyu's "Heiho Kadensho", or something totally out there like "The Judo Advantage" by Steve Scott, or "Chess Principles For Martial Arts" might easily become other prized MacGuffins!

 

[AsenRG]

Martial arts in everyday life is the topic for today, folks!

I mean, apart from keeping fit... and it's more of a story-time. Read on!

As I just wrote in the conditioning thread, I had to carry First Daughter on the stairs to the hospital* and back. Technically, she was able to walk - but her ankle hurts due to a misstep during dancing practice, and I didn't want to make her walk the stairs. It's an old building so there's no elevator (and we live on the fourth level, which I guess is right under the final boss...which makes me The Dragon).
That, by itself, isn't thread-worthy. The thread-worthy part is that I used a lesson on single-legs - courtesy of our MMA/kick-boxing coach, who managed to finally make me understand how to do the power variant of this throw. You know, the one where you're lifting the guy up by hugging his leg, not merely taking him down?
That's how I was carrying First Daughter. The reason: when you do it right, your back doesn't get strained, since all the power gets "grounded". The outcome: I'm coughing, just as I was the morning - but my back isn't even tired. And First Daughter is 10yo, but is almost as tall as some 14yo girls in the gym.
So...where else have you used martial arts outside the gym/dojo/dojang/kwan/whatever, but not for fighting? Share some stories, guys!

*The doctor prescribed resting at home until the end of the week, then not going to practice until December. She's not happy.


Also, in case this doesn't get us any bites...I mean, replies... here's a clip for something I've been working on (well, on and off - I dropped it for a while to focus on the single leg and hook/butterfly sweep). Please forget the part where one of them is on his feet and the other is on the ground: I've seen enough wrestlers doing the latter move on the feet, and I've had the first done on me on the feet.


Why? As you can guess, there are three reasons:
1) Strike defense, nobody can punch you if his arms are being tied.
2) Strike offense - seriously, if you can get either of these, the knees become a very hard to defend weapon.
3) Grappling offense and defense, both for throws and takedowns. The exact same logic applies, actually - and these would probably combine well with kimuras and butterfly sweeps. So I am going for unifying my weapons in one system.

And on the topic of unification: I had long had a feeling that these two controls are related. Only today a Tom DeBlass instructional gave me the answer why.
He literally advises older grapplers (it was his BJJ after 40 series) to always go for diagonal grips, with the line between the grips going through the opponent's body...and what you control is between the hands, AFAICT (I might not have understood his ideas completely without testing them). Clearest explanation of a control position I've heard, personally!
Now look at both of the above positions. You're pressing the shoulder and the head and neck, in both of them. It's just that one of them does that from the front of the head, the other from the back.
And if you switch your arms when in the shoulder lock, what do you have? Why, the beginning of a kimura grip, of course! (You just have to open the palm-to-palm grip - and if you open it without switching, you have an Americana grip, or a Reverse Kimura grip). All of these are options that combine with leg attacks (whether striking or sweeping).
Unification, as stated above, is the goal from the get-go.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I'm not all that worried about 'forbidden techniques' in Judo, and actually instruct many of them (although not the lock mentioned above). Judo has cut a lot of techniques out simply to manage their television profile (how watchable it is) and I feel it's been to the detriment of the art.

When I was doing Taewkondo a lot of techniques, or specific ways of doing techniques, were changed or removed simply to accommodate the changing rules set. One result was they lost their effectiveness outside the sport. It is interesting, even going from when I was doing it, which was after a lot of the big changes they made in the 80s (like requiring headgear), seeing it now when it is on the olympics it is almost unrecognizable to me.

There is definitely something to be said for learning the range of techniques. When I was a student we had a lot of guys who came to our gym who had started training in the 70s, and I found them fascinating to learn from because they came from an era that was even more focused on power (power was still important when I did it, today it isn't, but the 70s really emphasized it in a way they didn't when I was training----speed was pretty important in my time). The guy from the 70s, they would really sink their kicks in, and they hit with the ball of their foot (whereas we tended to favor the instep). You could just see the impact they had on the heavy bag with each kick. They also came from an era when you could still punch to the head, but in my era, you could only punch to the chest. So their stances were different. And they liked landing a lot of overhand backlists I noticed. One clear difference I saw was when a student from this earlier approach (there were also different styles of taekwondo that continued to fight in a way more like the 70s) kicked a chambered round house full force into a guy's chest (wearing a chest protector) using the ball of his foot to drive the power into it, and he just crumpled to the ground. I don't know how familiar you guys are with chest protectors but they are thick, so being able to drop someone through a chest guard, without using a high power kick like back kick, is pretty impressive.

Again these weren't forbidden techniques. We were allowed to use them. We were also allowed to train without using the rules of competition, but the rules of competition guided much of the training. When I transitioned to muay thai, I found my background in kicking translated well but not knowing how to defend against barrages of head punches, and not being accustomed to delivering them, was a significant learning curve.

In contrast to Judo I feel like most of the changes to Taekwondo have made it less watchable. If you compare olympic matches in TKD today to those of 30 years ago, the older matches are so much more exciting.

 

[MoonHunter]

Fencing has been a sport for so long, that "fighting in the round" is a pretty alien concept to most fencers. Fencers are all about lightning strikes, hand control, and positioning. This process is pretty devastating. It has only amplified given digital scoring equipment in now always used and is even better than it was originally. If everyone is limited from lateral movement... which is no longer taught to most fencers... it is the technique/ strategy of choice. Then we start moving into HEMA territory, as Spanish fighting in the round is pretty rare to find. In fact, you only find some of it in the Stage Fighting some people do (and from older masters like Basil Rathbone in the Swash Films). Old manuals show some of the motions. (And to be honest, many of us learned some of these step from eastern martial arts we took - frankenstyles.)

The production of books and the commonness of war, combined with not having schools with secret techniques, make the ethos of Western Martial arts very different from Eastern ones. Hema fighters will tell you all about this if you let them. It is all about practicality and spreading the knowledge to make "your side" the winners. While light weapon users (city blade users) and some of the Spanish works did focus on "softer spiritual aspects" of the blade, it was mostly about dispatching the other guy quickly and setting up the next action.

Use on the battlefield, to the game of nobles, to a sport, the emphasis changes. Rapiers use actions that would only count in Epee or Saber. While mostly a point weapon, slashes are effective. It is a whole change of emphasis. The foil, the sport rapier equivalent, is the most common fencing weapon, and a point-only weapon. While it does have real world counterparts in later periods, it is mostly a sport tool. Change of emphasis to change in tactics.

Now Fencers are still actually pretty effective against most Kendo practitioners, however they are usually taken down by Kenjitsu practitioners. It is because of the different emphasis of attacks and that "guard" is built into the attacking thrust. If the fencer knows a more about fighting in the round, and if they bother to use a main gauche or a cloak, they are effective against the Kenjitsu practitioner. (Once the Kenjitsu fighter gets used to their techniques and is willing to deviate from standard practice, it evens out.) Again it is moving about and no longer being limited to general lines of attack. European fighters with heavier weapons - with skills developed for active battlefield warfare instead of a polite society weapon or used after your guns were discharged - will take a light weapon users such as a fencing/ rapier user. But again, they are there for the killing, while a rapier user is there for "honor" and duels. Though don't count the rapier user out, there is a reason officers/ nobles used them on the battlefield.

 

[Fenris-77]

So I was a ranked fencer in high school but I have zero interest in going back to it. HEMA, on the other hand, is something I do want to do just as soon as I live somewhere that it happens. I specifically want to study longsword, but fencing in the round would be sweet too.

 

[MoonHunter]

I was ranked in college. (okay low ranked.) I was taken out by knee injuries (the scourge) and decided to give it up and walk into old age. I dabbled with the SCA. I would like to go back to it, through HEMA, but I think I have not been there physically before the event. Though while I was doing Aikido a decade or so ago, I could of gone back. Now, I will just use what I know for making game rules.

 

[Fenris-77]

I was ranked in college. (okay low ranked.) I was taken out by knee injuries (the scourge) and decided to give it up and walk into old age. I dabbled with the SCA. I would like to go back to it, through HEMA, but I think I have not been there physically before the event. Though while I was doing Aikido a decade or so ago, I could of gone back. Now, I will just use what I know for making game rules.

Hah, yeah, ranking are odd. In Ontario, being ranked in HS doesn't mean much (I was ranked 7th in the province in grade 12). Anyone who's actually any good fences on the C circuit that has its own ranking system, so that 7th doesn't mean all that much.

 

[AsenRG]

I have no ranking, other than probably "that crazy old fatty".

I just used my sick bed time allotment* to watch Neil Melanson's** Cradle of Filth DVD. True to his "filthy grappling" schtick, he spent quite a bit of time calling his partner, a man, Sally. His explanation of the Hobbler toehold lock involved discussing a movie where the actress broke a guy's ankle (playing the psycho very convincingly). And the last chapter, on doing butt drags, included discussing the dangers of grabbing the sack*** accidentally, which aimed to inculcate his lesson on the matter ("get used to it, and wear a cup just in case, because other people are also used to it").
His partner was laughing the whole time while he was expressing his philosophy, including while being turtled and waiting for Melanson to butt drag him. Guess the poor guy is used to it by now - he looked way more embarrassed in previous DVDs!

I'm positive that Neil Melanson is the only guy who could conclude his instructional with the words "...and don't be afraid to grab some sack", though. Eh, I'm kinda glad about it - I agree it was a good reminder that we're learning things that can do potentially worse things than embarrass you, but...well, those are not the closing words I want to hear on a regular basis!

Going to go and just watch the practice today. I'm still coughing, but a purple belt has promised us to show how to use street clothing for choking and stuff.


*It's not the whole day, let's put it like this.
**And Bjorn Friedrich's craddle DVD, which I actually watched first, because it's covering the basics way better. Melanson has probably been doing craddles for so long as a wrestler, he just assumes you know them. Still, I'd rate his DVD as way more comprehensive, but then it's also over twice as long, time-wise.
***He did differentiate between "grabbing the Governor" and "sticking your fingers into soup", to his credit. And he made an allowance that if you're a guy, you really want to avoid the latter.


Also, boring personal stuff is boring, so I don't want to make you read this. Feel free to skip - but this thread is replacing my blog as of now...

Spoiler: Boring reflexions on my autobiography

It's funny how things go. When I was young, I was thinking that striking martial arts were the pinnacle of martial arts evolution. Then I started having my doubts, against the mounting backdrop of evidence that professional warriors all over the world focused on grappling and weapons first and foremost, but was unwilling to switch to grappling entirely and play catch-up, so I rationalized that all styles should be both striking and grappling. Then I was shown how grappling moves lead naturally to striking (but the reverse is not true, as I can attest), which means that no pure grappling style could exist...just ones that aren't practicing certain applications.
I can explain that part in the martial arts thread, if you wish.
But at the end, I only gave up and started playing catch-up because the kids started coming to practice, they seemed totally uninterested in the solo practice of striking...and I know from experience and research that the practice of striking with a partner is undesirable at their age for both physical and legal reasons.
In the end, if it wasn't for the kids, I might have never made the transition which turned me into, basically, a wrestler focusing on ground grappling. Which is what I am doing today, though I do plan to increase the amount of standing grappling, too...eventually, when I re-learn falling safely, and get into a shape I'd call "good".

 

[AsenRG]

It's Questioning Common Wisdom Wednesday, right?

So, here's a topic for all of you today. And I don't mean "only those that do grappling", but anyone!
The Back and Crucifix positions are considered one of the strongest top positions you can be in on the ground, if not the strongest - only mount, and to an extent north-south and kesa-gatame, can really compare. I'm adding pictures just to be sure we're on the same page (and some people call "crucifix" a specific submission, which isn't what I'm talking about).
Back and crucifix

I'm not questioning the fact that those positions give you great control and a great shot at ending the fight.
The common-wisdom-questioning is...why are these positions considered "top"? I mean, in either one, if the opponent manages to turn 180 degrees you are in a bottom position (bottom guard or, gasp, bottom side control, for the crucifix)!

Which, to me, is a lot more like the "trap guards" - Rubber Guard, Williams/Shoulder Pin Guard and Rat Guard, to name a couple - than it is like mount or north-south. In mount, if the opponent manages to turn over, he's in back mount, which is worse. In north-south, if he turns over, he's now in front turtle/front headlock, which is still a bottom position.
You even can often take the back from the bottom without raising, or from the top...with a falling/rolling motion (various moves), similar to pulling guard. Which ends with you on the bottom...

And - crucially for those of you that don't do grappling - that matters for stuff like self-defense and MMA, where the top opponent can strike you much more easily (the trap guards aim to prevent exactly that, and to give you opportunities for submission, but if the opponent breaks them, there's the same downside).

For comparison:

So guys, tell me: has AsenRG gone mad(der) or am I on to something? Or even both?
Would you prefer one of the above, or something like North South position, which protects your head and kidneys from strikes?

I kinda assume that everyone knows what the mount is like (a.k.a. the schoolyard bully position).
Also, a lot of that changes if you can turn the opponent face-down in either back or crucifix. Then at least the crucifix becomes...well, probably worse than anything else. But I'm not asking about those variations - and a lot of moves for taking them involve, as I said, falling down. (The "top crucifix" requires you pretty much to trap his hand with your legs when in side control).

 

[AsenRG]

Grapplearts.com already started with the November discount. On top of the discounted prices, there's a code for an additional 50% off for everyone who has joined the mailing list (if anyone is interested, you can just PM me)!

But this lead me to think and surprisingly, I concluded that instructionals really have the best value for money among all the movies currently on offer! I was actually wondering which thread to post it on, this one or Martial Arts movies. Well, I decided that this one needs a boost...
So, what makes me say the above about instructionals?

1) They are actually meant to be rewatched.
2) If you rewatch an instructional more than 10 times, nobody thinks you're weird, they just take it as you finding the movie to be worth it.
3) The fight choreography is a lot more believable - sometimes outright improvised, in fact! (OK, "rolling with commentaries" is a relatively new trend).
4) Related to the above - in some cases, you know (and it is verifiable) that the action has really happened, albeit with one different character.
5) Both the main actors and the protagonists - and even the mooks, if any - have been training for a long time for this!
6) There's almost no mooks, everyone has a name. Though the antagonists usually get punked all the time - submitted, KOed or the like...gotta make the power fantasy types happy, baby!
7) All the actors do their own stunts.
8) The pain is real, but the blood ain't. OK, there's none of the latter in most, but still.
9) If an actor is there just because of his or her race or ethnicity, everybody agrees what this means, and it means that the movie sucks.
10) Many places where you can buy those allow you to ask for your money back if you didn't like it after watching it (Grapplearts has literally a 365-days moneyback guarantee).



So...guys, what do you say?

I mean, Voros and BedrockBrendan are our resident movie experts - but the rest of you would probably have an opinion on the matter as well!

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I mean, Voros and BedrockBrendan are our resident movie experts - but the rest of you would probably have an opinion on the matter as well!

I'm probably not the person to go to on this as I can't really make sense of grappling when I see it.

I think I tend to watch fight choreography for different reasons than I watch fights or martial arts, if that makes sense. The best martial arts scenes in movies for me have a combination beauty, grace, surprise, athleticism, and are performed by a person with presence or even great acting ability. So someone like Bruce Lee to me is still at the apex of this. Kara Hui captures that for me as well, and so do actors like Jackie Chan, Cheng Pei Pei, Stephen Chow and Michelle Yeoh. But I also appreciate people who are more one the acting side but can bring that to a fight sequence (like Brigitte Lin). Also as a former TKD person, I love watching Angela Mao in stuff like Hapkido, Lady Whirlwind or When Taekwondo Strikes. She has amazing on screen kicks. I like people who are captivating on screen and can make you believe things that would otherwise strain credulity. I also like fights on screen that have a dancelike quality.

For instructional I am less into choreographed stuff and more into conversional style videos like Icey Mike does on Hard2Hurt. I also like watching fights. When I did TKD I was both on demo-team and sparring team. Something about demo never really landed with me like watching sparring. So I watch a lot of street beefs when I want entertaining fighting these days. But movies are a different thing. I put those more in the realm of dance.

 

[CRKrueger]

I like the martial arts side of YouTube more and more lately. Why?

Because some people actually make research for their videos, and end up with stuff that makes sense.
It also helps that this is something I've been saying for years. Obviously they have never heard of me, so that's unlikely to have inspired them - but when two people have reached the same conclusion...
Well, the title of the first clip should explain what I mean. "Kung-fu is 90% wrestling".


And then you could actually look at this one (not necessary to get the point, though)



My other line which got confirmed? "Aikido techniques make no sense without weapons, and suddenly starts making sense once you (the Aikido player) have an weapon and are trying to use it, or you suspect the other opponent might pull one - later, if not now". You can just watch the first clip, but watch the whole of it...


The latter is also a good thing to watch for perspective and when it comes to RPG combat!

And last but not least...and I'm sure BedrockBrendan would enjoy this clip a lot (and probably wouldn't be the only one):


So the real question is - what would you rate the body armour worn here as, in D&D terms?

Soldier vs Gladiator is a great example. War vs. Combat Sport. Also the ways that different cultures discover the same biomechanics through natural geometry and physics has always been fascinating.

 

[AsenRG]

I'm probably not the person to go to on this as I can't really make sense of grappling when I see it.

I never said a word about "grappling" in the 10 arguments, though. I mean, I got myself a grappling instructional today (actually two, but one came free with the other), so I mentioned the grapplearts site! But a boxing instructional would fit just as nicely, if you re-read them, because I meant to make them catch-all.

I think I tend to watch fight choreography for different reasons than I watch fights or martial arts, if that makes sense.

It makes total sense! (Also, that comparison of instructionals vs Hollywood might have contained traces of attempted humor and/or been the result of me being dissatisfied with modern movie-making in general).

The best martial arts scenes in movies for me have a combination beauty, grace, surprise, athleticism, and are performed by a person with presence or even great acting ability. So someone like Bruce Lee to me is still at the apex of this. Kara Hui captures that for me as well, and so do actors like Jackie Chan, Cheng Pei Pei, Stephen Chow and Michelle Yeoh. But I also appreciate people who are more one the acting side but can bring that to a fight sequence (like Brigitte Lin). Also as a former TKD person, I love watching Angela Mao in stuff like Hapkido, Lady Whirlwind or When Taekwondo Strikes. She has amazing on screen kicks. I like people who are captivating on screen and can make you believe things that would otherwise strain credulity. I also like fights on screen that have a dancelike quality.

Oh, sure. That's just "good acting" in this case... as I said, I might have been just a tad facetious!

Conversely, I'm not sure who had written it, but someone in one of the Bruce Lee biographies that I've read had observed that a good fighter needs to have exactly the qualities of a bad martial arts actor, and vice versa: the ability to hide his pain, exhaustion and emotions, being able to win with short moves that are hard to spot even by the opponent, much less by observers, aiming to end it immediately (instead of prolonging it for the pleasure of viewers), not caring about whether it looks aesthetically pleasing...
Only one guy in a movie can fight like this, two at most. That's the BBEG and his sidekick, or even just one of those (if they're not one and the same).
Which is also in part why Bolo Yeung looks like the better fighter in many of his movies, even after losing. At least, he looks like that to me, and did even before I'd started to actually train. It just seemed wrong that he was losing!

For instructional I am less into choreographed stuff and more into conversional style videos like Icey Mike does on Hard2Hurt. I also like watching fights. When I did TKD I was both on demo-team and sparring team. Something about demo never really landed with me like watching sparring. So I watch a lot of street beefs when I want entertaining fighting these days. But movies are a different thing. I put those more in the realm of dance.

Makes total sense to me!
And lately, there have been a lot of videos that just take a sparring (or rolling) session and have the participant itself analyze it. Here's a nice example, though sorry, it is grappling-based...but he notes the important parts, that shouldn't be a problem.

Soldier vs Gladiator is a great example. War vs. Combat Sport. Also the ways that different cultures discover the same biomechanics through natural geometry and physics has always been fascinating.

Natural geometry reminds me of natural philosophy...
But yeah, I agree it's fascinating.

 

[AsenRG]

Back to martial arts, I'm going to keep it short this time:
It seems someone has actually written a book on the stuff I've been talking about since starting the thread! I should probably order it, but not sure now is the best moment.

I guess we'll see closer to Christmas! I'll let you know after I actually read it.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I never said a word about "grappling" in the 10 arguments, though. I mean, I got myself a grappling instructional today (actually two, but one came free with the other), so I mentioned the grapplearts site! But a boxing instructional would fit just as nicely, if you re-read them, because I meant to make them catch-all.

Sorry Asen. I must have misunderstood and assumed that because there was a grappling arts dot com mention at the start of the post.

It makes total sense! (Also, that comparison of instructionals vs Hollywood might have contained traces of attempted humor and/or been the result of me being dissatisfied with modern movie-making in general).

I find I am less interested in more recent films myself. I tend to watch older movies.

Oh, sure. That's just "good acting" in this case... as I said, I might have been just a tad facetious!

Conversely, I'm not sure who had written it, but someone in one of the Bruce Lee biographies that I've read had observed that a good fighter needs to have exactly the qualities of a bad martial arts actor, and vice versa: the ability to hide his pain, exhaustion and emotions, being able to win with short moves that are hard to spot even by the opponent, much less by observers, aiming to end it immediately (instead of prolonging it for the pleasure of viewers), not caring about whether it looks aesthetically pleasing...
Only one guy in a movie can fight like this, two at most. That's the BBEG and his sidekick, or even just one of those (if they're not one and the same).

That is a very interesting observation. It certainly makes sense. I have read a few Bruce Lee biographies but don't remember hearing that mentioned before (maybe I just don't remember). One thing I do recall reading from a Joe Lewis book (and I think maybe take with a grain of salt) was that Bruce Lee's style when he sparred was very different from what you saw on screen (he described him using a lot of low line kicks and kicking more like a muay thai fighter----but again, grain of salt).

Makes total sense to me!
And lately, there have been a lot of videos that just take a sparring (or rolling) session and have the participant itself analyze it. Here's a nice example, though sorry, it is grappling-based...but he notes the important parts, that shouldn't be a problem.

It can be very useful to watch yourself. We used to record some of our sparring sessions and review them, and we also used to have someone record competition (somewhere out there is a video of me getting knocked out). Reviewing those was always helpful, especially if you lost, because you can pinpoint bad habits and the moment you made mistakes that cost you a match.

 

[AsenRG]

Sorry Asen. I must have misunderstood and assumed that because there was a grappling arts dot com mention at the start of the post.

I guessed as much, Brendan - but this is just because I thought about this while purchasing a grappling instructional!

Then again, I'm a martial artist first, and any of weapons user, grappler and striker second. I felt that my game has holes that impact negatively my ability to apply the skills I have trained already*, and said holes were in the grappling area, so I'm doing grappling currently. So the next movie I watch after I finish the current one might be on craddles, or 2-on-1 grips...or it might be the Machida Front Kick instructional, or a Krav Maga disarming instructional, or something that's not "pure grappling".
And all of them are going to be "better than the current crop of Hollywood movies".


*The simplest example is how a lot of kick-boxers don't dare to attack reckless against a wrestler in MMA because they don't want to get caught by a takedown and taken to the ground. But that already doesn't worry me as much as it used to. I stand a decent chance to survive the bottom and sweep or get up, at least against "street opponents". I tested that in a playful grapple recently with a strong and highly competitive opponent.
A more "esoteric" reason is that I've come to the conclusion that the skills I have studied in TMA do indeed assume proficiency in grappling, and are actually meant to build on that. You can see upthread the "kung-fu is 90% wrestling" clip.
And well, the best way to cover holes is to focus on the missing area for a while...but the point is that I expect that to actually improve my previous skills as well.

I find I am less interested in more recent films myself. I tend to watch older movies.

Yeah, the recent ones tend towards the "designed by Twitter committee garbage" side, it seems...or just the "garbage" side!

That is a very interesting observation. It certainly makes sense. I have read a few Bruce Lee biographies but don't remember hearing that mentioned before (maybe I just don't remember). One thing I do recall reading from a Joe Lewis book (and I think maybe take with a grain of salt) was that Bruce Lee's style when he sparred was very different from what you saw on screen (he described him using a lot of low line kicks and kicking more like a muay thai fighter----but again, grain of salt).

I think the name of the author was John Little, it had something like "fighting/indomitable spirit" in the title...but yeah, I've read quite a few Bruce Lee biographies as well. Sorry if the details are wrong.
And yeah, it also noted that Bruce Lee fought differently when not making a movie. Much simpler, less visually appealing...so, pretty much what I dub "bad guy style", because that's how the bad guy in a Hollywood* movie usually fights - for multiple reasons.
One of the reasons, I suspect, is that bad guy actors are often picked to be visually intimidating, and teaching them complicated techniques is seen as a waste of time. So they get by with "street moves" instead, while the protagonist performs complicated high kicks that are actually harder to pull against an experienced opponent!
IIRC, I first learned how to do a double leg by reversing the way Bolo Yeung performed one in Bloodsport...he performed it from the back, headbutting the opponent in the kidneys, I've only done it from the front, but I used to headbutt in the stomach in the process. These days, I try to perform it without the headbutt, though.

*Not in a HK movie - there, the bad guy might have less strength, but immaculate kicking technique, or any kind of superior kung-fu...so the protagonists might need to level up to defeat him!

It can be very useful to watch yourself. We used to record some of our sparring sessions and review them, and we also used to have someone record competition (somewhere out there is a video of me getting knocked out). Reviewing those was always helpful, especially if you lost, because you can pinpoint bad habits and the moment you made mistakes that cost you a match.

Oh, definitely. But I can't really set up a camera to shoot my rolls in the gym. Might be worth speaking with the coach, though!

 

[Fenris-77]

 

[AsenRG]

View attachment 51927

Let me guess: the hint is that I could replace "face strikes" with "balance taken away"?

And yeah, I agree. That's why Lyoto Machida - despite being an MMA fighter known for his karate - has a separate instructional on kuzushi*!

*For people unfamiliar with judo/JJJ/BJJ terminology, that's the act of taking away an opponent's balance.

 

[Fenris-77]

It was just a generally applicable post, not one targeting anything you said.

 

[AsenRG]

It was just a generally applicable post, not one targeting anything you said.

Should I feel ignored, then?

 

[AsenRG]

Anyway...I should, fingers crossed, get to some BJJ today. And it's even in the gi, so yay!

I actually like gi training, even if I keep trying to apply no-gi solutions. But the gi is a better approximation for the outfits we wear in the cold months. So unlike other people, I find them both pretty realistic, martial arts-wise. (I actually find that it's easier to avoid the attacks of people with naked torso that are trying to punch you: don't sign up for MMA fights, done! It might be different if I was living in some place with a lot more sun, but in my part of Bulgaria, my system is nearly fool-proof!)

Also, I just* found some guy who explains "the missing link between street and sports BJJ". According to him, that's the "clinch and headbutt" combo.
And I remember that I've had the same move being shown by two different wrestlers (freestyle and classical wrestling, respectively)... And I've seen similar even in a book on Chinese kung-fu related wrestling, and Jack London had mentioned it in a story. Clearly, it's been done.
Either way, I just loved how he puts it "the primary weapon of grapplers was so efficient they banned it in MMA" (possibly slightly paraphrasing, because I can't be bothered to find his exact quote).

I could speak more, but I haven't finished watching the free instructional, and well, it's free if anyone wants it!
I suspect at least some of you would find it interesting, so it's here (get the free intro course and skip to the 7th movie for headbutting).

https://www.grapplinginstructionals.com/products/unified-jiu-jitsu-with-jean-vandesteen-intro-course

Another fun fact, unrelated to the above: I was recently shown how to use a t-shirt in self-defense situation.
Amusingly, the guy who showed it, basically also demonstrated a great bare-knuckles punch defense "in case he tries to punch you in the clinch".
But today I remembered that he himself doesn't use it when training for MMA. I really need to ask him why.

*A couple days ago.




Edited to add:
The test of my personal system, as compiled from different sources as it is, went great! I did not just well today, but outright fine, at least in my book!
Specific takeaway points from today:
-Started from the bottom every time. I think I might have spend a bit less than 2 minutes on the bottom between the 12 minutes of rolling...OK, possibly more, depending on how you count "being in a front headlock". But not a lot more.
-I outplayed my Wing Chun-trained partner in handfighting. That's his strongest asset, so I'm glad I focused on it as well while I was sick. And yes, watching instructional videos can help if you end up making a system out of them or adding them to your system.
-Armdrags, 2-on-1s, kimura grips and reverse kimura grips combine just as well as I did expect them to. Adding underhooks, overhooks/whizzers, and two kinds of shoulder wraps might be the next step. Then I should add the gi-specific grips.
-The 2-on-1 to reverse kimura on the far hand (in half guard) actually combines fine with a rolling sweep or elevator sweep.
-The above grips also go very well when you're on the bottom, whether in a turtle, or having your back taken. (Martin seemed to think that I'm recovering from the back by strength. Instead, I explained to him how to use the 2-on-1, body alignment, and bridging on the opponent's elbow to get out).
-Craddles are the bees' knees when you are on top! How do you even get out of this kind of thing?
-Any kind of the above 2-on-1 controls from the bottom can transfer to a kimura from the bottom after some minor variations (as they say in wuxia novels "the technique departed, and each of the hands contained 10 000 variations" - BedrockBrendan and Deathblade can confirm). It probably helped that we were drilling a kimura from the bottom before the rolling, too...
-Even a much younger and fitter partner stands no chance if you have significantly more experience. OK, that was just an ego boost...but it was nice to see.

Spoiler: Fun episode

At one point I basically told the young partner (while holding him in a craddle grip) "I can do whatever from here, want me to let you go and do it again?"
He tucked his hand instead and asked "can you do an armbar?"
Me, hooking his hand and falling back: "No problem".
Then he tapped.
Now I'm wondering whether he expected to defend the armbar as a way to get out? Well, I've attempted the same...but honestly, once I've hooked the arm, got it away from the other hand so he can't lock them, and put the leg over his face...it's basically done. And from the craddle, that all happens basically in the same "beat".

-Later, the same guy asked me about "practical applications" (possibly because I told him my gi is older than him, so he got curious what else I've done). I told him a few stories from the 90ies and he seemed to think that I've been born in an ancient, barbaric time...
-I learned that some of the youngest guys doing BJJ didn't know Japanese Jiu-Jitsu exists. OK, at least they had heard of Judo, but that was a shock, honestly...though I can't blame them, and I guess it speaks mostly about what the media that they consume is peddling. A teenager in the 90ies might have had equal problems believing that non-Asian systems of fighting exist...and both are, in the end, equally misinformed!

 

[AsenRG]

I was at a birthday party today...so let's talk striking! (Besides, I did grapple with the kids, but that in itself is not newsworthy).

OTOH, here is Gabriel Varga commenting on his own MMA fight. I'll spoil the surprise and let you know that he won by TKO, but his commentary is still fun to see...



And no, I'm not talking about his BJJ at all. He was good enough to get up and that was what mattered. I would just say that I'm positively impressed with his ability to tie his opponent up while wrestling in standing.
Though as he noted, this lead to his hands being extremely tired...despite him being an elite athlete with obviously great conditioning.

Also, do you notice how he says he is playing in a more open guard than usual because of the smaller gloves? And that's despite him not changing his style enough, in his own opinion, to adapt for the new ruleset (due to the lack of time).

What impressed me about Mr. Varga is that in another video, this one commenting on his own (upcoming?) Karate Combat fight, he mentions that you can have people that train their whole life for one ruleset, and thus think it's all logical and nothing better exists. But then you get try for a different format, and stuff is just different when the rules have changed.
Spot on, IMO!

And yes, MMA is just a ruleset as well.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I was at a birthday party today...so let's talk striking! (Besides, I did grapple with the kids, but that in itself is not newsworthy).

OTOH, here is Gabriel Varga commenting on his own MMA fight. I'll spoil the surprise and let you know that he won by TKO, but his commentary is still fun to see...



And no, I'm not talking about his BJJ at all. He was good enough to get up and that was what mattered. I would just say that I'm positively impressed with his ability to tie his opponent up while wrestling in standing.
Though as he noted, this lead to his hands being extremely tired...despite him being an elite athlete with obviously great conditioning.

Also, do you notice how he says he is playing in a more open guard than usual because of the smaller gloves? And that's despite him not changing his style enough, in his own opinion, to adapt for the new ruleset (due to the lack of time).

What impressed me about Mr. Varga is that in another video, this one commenting on his own (upcoming?) Karate Combat fight, he mentions that you can have people that train their whole life for one ruleset, and thus think it's all logical and nothing better exists. But then you get try for a different format, and stuff is just different when the rules have changed.
Spot on, IMO!

And yes, MMA is just a ruleset as well.

That is a very interesting video. Like hearing his commentary which seems pretty frank. It is definitely true about those gloves. Whenever I have been to a place where they used MMA gloves it was a whole other thing. And the sanshou gym I went to (which was an extremely unorthodox school) the Sifu used to let people use whatever gloves they wanted (you could bring your own or pick from gloves they had there, which were a mixture of MMA gloves, karate gloves, kickboxing gloves, etc). The gloves definitely make a big difference.

 

[AsenRG]

That is a very interesting video. Like hearing his commentary which seems pretty frank. It is definitely true about those gloves. Whenever I have been to a place where they used MMA gloves it was a whole other thing. And the sanshou gym I went to (which was an extremely unorthodox school) the Sifu used to let people use whatever gloves they wanted (you could bring your own or pick from gloves they had there, which were a mixture of MMA gloves, karate gloves, kickboxing gloves, etc). The gloves definitely make a big difference.

Just out of curiosity, which gloves did you choose to use if there were "mixed gloves" contests? And which other kind of gloves made it harder or easier to defend/attack?

And yeah, I experienced an even greater shock when I first tried boxing!

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Just out of curiosity, which gloves did you choose to use if there were "mixed gloves" contests? And which other kind of gloves made it harder or easier to defend/attack?

And yeah, I experienced an even greater shock when I first tried boxing!

I tended to just pick boxing gloves. I did mix it up a bit occasionally if someone was starting to piss me off. I do remember sparring a number of people with smaller gloves while I was wearing up to 16 ounce boxing gloves (though often I would wear between 12-14). Even if they aren't using MMA boxing gloves, being 4 ounces bigger than someone (which is something I've done anyways at boxing gyms where someone had 10 or 12 ounce gloves and you had 14 or 16 ounce), sucks. I don't recommend it. Basically the other person, unless they are really terrible, will look awesome and you will be incredibly slow with your strikes in comparison. The one advantage is bigger gloves do mean they have a narrower gap to strike through when your guard is up (but they are also using narrower gloves so it kind of washes out I think). I will say when you suddenly switch to smaller gloves though, you feel like a new person.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Also if you ever get the opportunity to try: having people spar each other with 24 ounce boxing gloves is hysterical to watch. You don't want to make a habit of it, but it's good for a bit of fun.

 

[AsenRG]

This post was written one-handed...because the other hand is tied to my chest.

The Sunday before going to the hospital, I did my best in the gym, focusing on free play(because it is going to be a while...). Which means I skipped the drilling (ashi-garami isn't my thing yet, and I figured I'd forget anything I might learn about it in a single session).

So, technically, I rolled three out of four times. But in actuality, while the rest of us were drilling, I was rolling with those guys and gals from the kids' group* who are already of age to join the adults (15 and above, IIRC). They had remained after their practice to roll with submissions (the kids usually roll without them, fighting for position). Actually, my third "official" roll was also with one of them nobody else was free...but before that, I had watched her jujigatame-ing the rest of them, so I assumed it was fine.
The rolls with Martin were great. Positions were gained, lost and exchanged in the blink of an eye. I actually escaped his side control by locking a kimura from the bottom, and exchanging it for a return to my butterfly guard.
He also tried to take my back. The 2-on-1 escape still works, though, and afterwards he was on bottom...as I said, I am more and more of the opinion that the back is a dominant bottom position, akin to Williams' guard.
I decided to work on pinning him flat to the mat first...and ended up submitting him with a straight armlock. What do you know, pinning works...and I think I finally understood why!
Simply put, if you pin somebody, it means that at least a part of his body is now unable to move. And what cannot move can hardly resist pressure, or avoid the grip of a submission. Basically, you don't need submission mastery after this**, the opponent is helpless for this instant, in that particular direction...
I also scored a host of submissions in the other rolls, including two from kesa gatame. I think those were my first from this position, or the first in a long while.
But it's the feel of that single straight armlock that I want to replicate - the feel, not the specific technique.


Also, I watched over 10 hours of instructionals while in the hospital (and read two books on the topic), but lost count of the time. Won't bore you with details...


...not in this post, at least.


*I hope that it goes without saying that I was going easy on them all, as I always do when I have a significant size advantage that isn't compensated by superior skill... normally, I wouldn't mention it, but the recent dumpster fire thread makes me wary.
As an example, I was avoiding to apply maximum pressure in top positions. As a further example, I let some of them start on my back, limited the number of submissions per recipient, such things.
**My straight armlock is far from masterful, too. But if your opponent can't resist it, the basic form should be enough.

 

[AsenRG]

So let's discuss attacking from inferior positions, like bottom side control. Further, let's take the buggy choke as an example...AFAICT, it's not a move that would be forbidden in say Judo, so we could get a broader discussion.
Is it a good idea? I'd say "no, not if you expect to actually finishing the submission".
Here's a video from a youtuber I respect who is warning about the issues with buggy chokes.



And here's what I replied.
"
I'm practicing BJJ and still don't find this choke a good idea even in a sporting context. But then I would threaten using it, or other moves like this- I used a kimura from the bottom side control last time I rolled.... Keyword is threaten. I don't think I am going to finish it even on another white belt. But I want you to defend it, which would require you to shift your bodyweight around. Because that would make my escape easier.
Simple logic, the one who is escaping a bad position needs to create space. So does the one who is defending the submission. So if I can make you want to create space...well, our goals suddenly aligned, didn't they?
That's also how I am using standing kansetsu waza when the ruleset also allows strikes (or in HEMA sparring, especially). If I get you with them, it would be great, but what I really want you to do is to have you move to to create space...space that I can then fill with my strike, or my sword.

Now, if he starts lifting you? Either block the lift by underhooking one of his legs, or - and I'd do exactly that - release and drop to the ground before he could elevate you. Preferably at the very start of his lift.
But then lift and slam is the bane of all submissions from the bottom. You can say the same for a triangle - you can get slammed on your head and neck while trying to triangle someone from the bottom - and it has happened. Does it mean a triangle from the bottom is not safe? No, it means you have to drill to finish it while preventing the lift...or to release early before he hoists you up."

Thoughts, guys? Other than "Asen is almost organically unable to not talk about swords even in grappling videos"...which is something I know and acknowledge?