The Martial Arts Thread

Best Selling RPGs - Available Now @ DriveThruRPG.com

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,460
Reaction score
7,382
Doesn't "professionals vs beginners" say it all?

I mean, I'm nowhere near a pro, but I can pull on most beginners...well, anything I might want to*, from Aikido to Muay Thai.

*Assuming I can even perform it. I can't pull off Capoeira because the gymnastics is too much for me, not because the beginner is going to stop me somehow.
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,460
Reaction score
7,382

[URL='http://i.refs.cc/dutLcEj1?smile_ref=eyJzbWlsZV9zb3VyY2UiOiJzbWlsZV91aSIsInNtaWxlX21lZGl1bSI6IiIsInNtaWxlX2NhbXBhaWduIjoicmVmZXJyYWxfcHJvZ3JhbSIsInNtaWxlX2N1c3RvbWVyX2lkIjo2NzMxNDA4ODl9']Fanatic Wrestling

Dynamic Striking
And now there's also a site named Effective Self-Defense it seems. What do these people want, more money:shade:?
They'd have to open a site like Weapon Users United as well...unless there is one already:grin:!

OTOH, this reminds me I have to watch the clip Voros posted. So at least it's something:tongue:!

Somehow I started answerting a question on Quora today, instead of watching that clip!

Why in kata (tul, and poomsae), positions are generally with hands to the hips? In a fight/combat all martial arts preferably use an up-guard position, hands near the face or upper chest.

Asen Georgiev

  1. Not all “forms” (kata, or whatever else) use hands to the hips. I’ve been taught Chinese forms that included hands retracting to the chest or the elbow of the forward hand.
  2. Some would say “less sophisticated methods”. And I don’t know, I wasn’t there, so maybe that’s the real answer…though it doesn’t quite seem so from the documents (see below). But maybe!
  3. But I’d say a quite possible answer is “because what you think of as ‘striking arts’ today, weren’t that”.
    To clarify, I’m not saying they weren’t using strikes primarily. I’m saying they engaged in striking and what we would term “grappling” today, pretty much simultaneously. And grappling was expected if you didn’t finish the fight with the first couple of strikes.
    As proof to that, I just opened randomly my copy of Bubishi: in the four pages I read, I saw a head tilt, a leg scissors, and a single leg takedown:grin:!

    But back to the retracting hand…now let me state it unambiguously: in my opinion retracting the hand to the hip is stupid…if it’s your defensive hand. No discussion there.
    If. But that the other hand is moving doesn’t mean that the retracting hand is there to defend you!
    Now ask yourself, what if that move is actually pulling the front hand of the enemy towards your hip, and thus pulling him towards your strike?
    As a bonus, the enemy can’t defend with this hand. And where is the logical place to pull to, for maximum power (and other reasons)? Right, the hip isn’t the only option - but it’s a decent option!
    (As a note: in older styles attack and defense aren’t clearly delineated, the attack is meant to defend you, and defense is meant to put the enemy in a difficult situation - not necessarily by “attacking the limbs”. This move is a prime example: if you have stepped in with the expected angular/semicircular step, and are pulling the hand that’s closer to you towards your body and down, aiming to break the balance…well, an out of balance opponent would have a hard time countering - as evidenced in all the “dirty boxing” in MMA).


    Bottom line: if you see something in an “older” style that doesn’t make sense when you’re thinking about striking, check whether it makes more sense when grappling.

    Or, you know, you can just assume that people didn’t know better.
Feel free to comment!
 
Last edited:

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,460
Reaction score
7,382
Voros Voros - watched the clip with decent sound.
I only disagree with the guy on the two Star Wars movies and on Aragorn.
Aragorn could have had a 7, it wasn't the most technical fight, but he should have accounted for the fact that the character is a wanderer, not a wandering fencer.
Both the SW movies were consistently overrated by between 2 and 5 points (none of them is worth more than a 6, and a 5 would probably be better on the conservative side), so I've got my suspicions that the expert in question is simply a fan of Star Wars. Further proof to that: he recognised the "change of battle forms", which to me was simply "OK, that stuff didn't work, let's try something else".

Amusingly, he reminds me of another expert like that, a female MMA fighter. She obviously liked Judo and Boxing, no surprise...
But then she tried to judge the movies that didn't use those styles by their criteria. Leading to some, ahem, fine examples of how our likes and dislikes can blind us to the general picture.
Let's leave it at that:shade:.

P.S.: Just to clarify, the sword expert in that clip was orders of magnitude more knowledgeable about his field than my counterexample! I'm just saying that maybe he also had a hard time overcoming his likes and being sufficiently harsh with the movies in question:devil:!
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,460
Reaction score
7,382
OK, that didn't attract much attention:smile:.
So here's the comments of Firas Zahabi on Ronda Rousey's striking skills or lack thereof, as well as on her coach's merits.
“I know a lot of guys are blowing your tops off now, but it’s not his fault,” Zahabi explained. “She is not the first athlete in MMA to fail at developing a striking game.”
“I know what you guys are going to tell me, ‘Ben Askren is a better striker than Ronda Rousey. Maia’s striking is better than Ronda Rousey’s. Why is Rousey’s striking is very stiff and mechanical?’ Is it because of his coach? I don’t think it is.
“Before you start burning your computers, hear me out. Take for instance, Ben Askren, great fighter. His coach, Duke Roufus, is an extremely competent striking coach. No one can debate that, and he has proven himself over and over again. Why isn’t Asrken’s striking like Anthony Pettis? Is it Duke Roufus’ fault? No it is not.
“The reason why a Ben Askren or a Ronda Rousey’s striking usually — not always — doesn’t hit that high level, is because they’ve spent so much time wiring their brain and their body and their nervous system to fight in one particular way. It’s opportunity cost. Every time you do one thing, you’re costing yourself in another.”
I’ll tell you something, I have a unique punching style that I’ve developed over the years for MMA particularly, and people might scoff and say, “What do you mean by unique punching style?” The distances are different in MMA, and that makes a huge difference. It took me years to understand this. The distances are different, and because of the wrestling, a lot of the infighting that we see in boxing isn’t possible. There are a lot more techniques available, because we can kick, punch and knee, but the punching style had to adapt. Plus, the gloves are smaller, which makes a huge difference. I’m wearing four-ounce gloves. I’ve got eight ounces, 16 ounces between the two of us. In a boxing match, it’s 40 ounces between the two of us, minimum. Ten-ounce gloves are the smallest you’ll see in a boxing fight.
It was me who bolded them. But that's what attracted my attention - you're free to comment on anything else, obviously!
 

Voros

Doomed Investigator
Joined
Sep 23, 2017
Messages
9,666
Reaction score
15,932
I missed your previous post but don't have much to add. Didn't know silat as a form of fighting, seems to be getting some attention in films recently too.

In terms of the comments you posted, I'm not an MMA fan for a number of reasons and I see what they mean about the ability to grapple and wrestle and kick reducing the need for inside fighting, one of my favourite things in boxing is good inside fighting.

In boxing the term for extensive mutual inside punching is 'fighting in a phone booth.'

Good inside fighting in boxing is relatively rare, often considered another 'lost art' by boxing purists but I've seen it used well more often in the smaller weight classes where the skill level and stamina of the fighters tends to be higher on average than the glamour divisions.

I think stamina is a big reason you don't see it as often these days, a lot of inside fighting is to the body and that can be really draining, especially as you go up in weight.

On the flip side though because so few fighters have a good inside game having it in your arsenal makes you particularly dangerous, if you can make it inside of course.
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,460
Reaction score
7,382
I missed your previous post but don't have much to add. Didn't know silat as a form of fighting, seems to be getting some attention in films recently too.

In terms of the comments you posted, I'm not an MMA fan for a number of reasons and I see what they mean about the ability to grapple and wrestle and kick reducing the need for inside fighting, one of my favourite things in boxing is good inside fighting.

In boxing the term for extensive mutual inside punching is 'fighting in a phone booth.'

Good inside fighting in boxing is relatively rare, often considered another 'lost art' by boxing purists but I've seen it used well more often in the smaller weight classes where the skill level and stamina of the fighters tends to be higher on average than the glamour divisions.

I think stamina is a big reason you don't see it as often these days, a lot of inside fighting is to the body and that can be really draining, especially as you go up in weight.

On the flip side though because so few fighters have a good inside game having it in your arsenal makes you particularly dangerous, if you can make it inside of course.
Silat is an(other) art based on weapons use and dancing, including acrobatic dancing. I'd advise you to check it on Youtube, because it's got lots of inside fighting:shade:

And that brings us back to Zahabi's comments.
I agree hands had to change due to smaller gloves. I mean, come on, everybody says how amateur and pro boxing are different, how boxing had changed after introducing the gloves (including some of the early champions who knew both, though the name eludes me)...but somehow some people believe smaller gloves and a different ruleset should result in no changes to the boxing technique?
I find the idea mistaken:thumbsup:.
But that doesn't mean inside fighting doesn't exist in MMA. Not so many MMA fighters are any good at it (and amusingly most of them are wrestlers, it seems - though they call it "dirty boxing")...but that's different from "not applicable". In fact, the kind of inside fighting where you're not grabbing the opponent is one of the things that are waiting to be re-discovered in MMA and we're slowly getting there*, I believe.
But it shouldn't be the same inside fighting. Principles would remain - but the manifestation would be different. I mean, different rules are different - what's rules-breaking in boxing is par for the course in MMA. Why wouldn't you use a knee kick when it's allowed? An elbow? Forearm smash, hammerfist to the soft parts of the body? A trip to unbalance the opponent before striking? All well-known boxing fouls...but they are legally permitted in MMA:devil:!

*Give these guys some time! Over a decade ago, MMA fans were telling me how hand trapping doesn't work...then we got to see people with different backgrounds (beginning with Fedor against Tim Sylvia) winning fights with it. The same people were telling me how low kicks to the thigh are the ultimate kicks to the legs, because they can be practiced safeliy in sparring IIRC, "or else everybody would be using them in MMA", and how front kicks are weak and can rarely lead to knockout.
And then Machida and Anderson Silva proved otherwise, and Jon Jones and Stephen Thompson and other guys demonstrated the oblique kick and the calf kick. No they're the new "thing", it seems:tongue:.
And one thing one must admit to the MMA crowd: once they see a technique working, they find a way to drill it and experiment until they learn how to make it work under stress. For this, they've got my deepest respect.
Now if they were to learn the value of some other stuff, like respect, I'd happily switch to MMA:grin:!

Ah well...that's getting too long, so I'll stop here.
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,460
Reaction score
7,382
Currently looking at the De La Riva guard from BJJ.
The similarities with some Silat positions are striking!
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,460
Reaction score
7,382
I'm now proud with First Daughter. She managed to feel (and express in words) the principle of "after contact, the bodies become one and you can feel what the other's body is doing":shade:!
Importantly, I hadn't told her that this was the goal of the drill the play I'd made her do. I didn't expect her to be able to sense it:devil:.
I wonder whether I can start teaching her some tricks about disbalancing against strikes, now.
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,460
Reaction score
7,382
OK, people, let's move this thread a bit.
Look at this video at 22:02.
What kind of strike is Namkabuan showing as "one of the things that were allowed back then":devil:?
 

Stevethulhu

Studiously Indifferent
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
3,155
Reaction score
4,467
I'd call that strike a haito, ridge hand. Aim for the neck, throat or temple.

Sriously not allowed in competition for obvious reasons...
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,460
Reaction score
7,382
I'd call that strike a haito, ridge hand. Aim for the neck, throat or temple.

Sriously not allowed in competition for obvious reasons...
Also known as "rabbit punch" when performed with the forearm, usually aimed at the back of the head. But he says it was allowed, or the referees didn't penalize it:devil:.
However, while I suspect you're right and he means the rabbit punch, I see his fist being in "leopard's paw", striking with the second knuckles. Which is curious.
Of you course, you can throw a leopard's paw and if you miss due to the enemy slipping inside, deliver the rabbit punch:shade:.
 
Last edited:

Voros

Doomed Investigator
Joined
Sep 23, 2017
Messages
9,666
Reaction score
15,932
Are rabbit punches still (or ever?) legal in MMA? I don't watch MMA but recall seeing some early matches and seeing rabbit punches which horrorfied me.
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,460
Reaction score
7,382
Are rabbit punches still (or ever?) legal in MMA? I don't watch MMA but recall seeing some early matches and seeing rabbit punches which horrorfied me.
They're not legal and AFAIR, never were. Though maybe they were in the very first few matches? I think there was a point when even groin shots were.
I'm not exactly an authority on how the MMA rules, though. What I know (because it was easy enough to check) is that in the current rules, the back of the head is an illegal target, period.
That said, it's an important distinction that if the hit to the illegal zone is due to the opponent moving while the initial attack was towards a legal zone...well, tough luck, hombre, deal with it:evil:!

That said, Muay Thai is a very different story. For starters, there are no unified rules, and then every stadium has its own rules, which might or might not exclude attacks to the knee and/or groin, and/or headbutts, and reportedly, using gloves. Neighboring Myanmar's competition style, Lethwei, which is rather similar still doesn't use gloves. In Thai, matches with only ropes on the fists are known as kard chuek. You can find them on youtube:devil:.
And even when rabbit punches/open hand punches are forbidden...well, not all judges are going to sanction them. Some have a more lenient attitude, possibly due to tradition. After all, the rules outlawing some "forbidden" attack zones have only been implemented relatively recently - just like it took quite a while for the Queensbury rules to get hold (and I'm one of those that are still unsure this was a good thing:thumbsup:)!
 

Voros

Doomed Investigator
Joined
Sep 23, 2017
Messages
9,666
Reaction score
15,932
They're not legal and AFAIR, never were. Though maybe they were in the very first few matches? I think there was a point when even groin shots were.
I'm not exactly an authority on how the MMA rules, though. What I know (because it was easy enough to check) is that in the current rules, the back of the head is an illegal target, period.
That said, it's an important distinction that if the hit to the illegal zone is due to the opponent moving while the initial attack was towards a legal zone...well, tough luck, hombre, deal with it:evil:!

That said, Muay Thai is a very different story. For starters, there are no unified rules, and then every stadium has its own rules, which might or might not exclude attacks to the knee and/or groin, and/or headbutts, and reportedly, using gloves. Neighboring Myanmar's competition style, Lethwei, which is rather similar still doesn't use gloves. In Thai, matches with only ropes on the fists are known as kard chuek. You can find them on youtube:devil:.
And even when rabbit punches/open hand punches are forbidden...well, not all judges are going to sanction them. Some have a more lenient attitude, possibly due to tradition. After all, the rules outlawing some "forbidden" attack zones have only been implemented relatively recently - just like it took quite a while for the Queensbury rules to get hold (and I'm one of those that are still unsure this was a good thing:thumbsup:)!

I saw some Muay Thai matches in Thailand. Pretty amazing. They've got little kids even fighting. I'll see if I can find any of the videos or pics I took.
 
Cthulhu Mythos - Available Now @ DriveThruRPG.com
Top