The Martial Arts Thread

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AsenRG

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Doesn't "professionals vs beginners" say it all?

I mean, I'm nowhere near a pro, but I can pull on most beginners...well, anything I might want to*, from Aikido to Muay Thai.

*Assuming I can even perform it. I can't pull off Capoeira because the gymnastics is too much for me, not because the beginner is going to stop me somehow.
 

AsenRG

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[URL='http://i.refs.cc/dutLcEj1?smile_ref=eyJzbWlsZV9zb3VyY2UiOiJzbWlsZV91aSIsInNtaWxlX21lZGl1bSI6IiIsInNtaWxlX2NhbXBhaWduIjoicmVmZXJyYWxfcHJvZ3JhbSIsInNtaWxlX2N1c3RvbWVyX2lkIjo2NzMxNDA4ODl9']Fanatic Wrestling

Dynamic Striking
And now there's also a site named Effective Self-Defense it seems. What do these people want, more money:shade:?
They'd have to open a site like Weapon Users United as well...unless there is one already:grin:!

OTOH, this reminds me I have to watch the clip Voros posted. So at least it's something:tongue:!

Somehow I started answerting a question on Quora today, instead of watching that clip!

Why in kata (tul, and poomsae), positions are generally with hands to the hips? In a fight/combat all martial arts preferably use an up-guard position, hands near the face or upper chest.

Asen Georgiev

  1. Not all “forms” (kata, or whatever else) use hands to the hips. I’ve been taught Chinese forms that included hands retracting to the chest or the elbow of the forward hand.
  2. Some would say “less sophisticated methods”. And I don’t know, I wasn’t there, so maybe that’s the real answer…though it doesn’t quite seem so from the documents (see below). But maybe!
  3. But I’d say a quite possible answer is “because what you think of as ‘striking arts’ today, weren’t that”.
    To clarify, I’m not saying they weren’t using strikes primarily. I’m saying they engaged in striking and what we would term “grappling” today, pretty much simultaneously. And grappling was expected if you didn’t finish the fight with the first couple of strikes.
    As proof to that, I just opened randomly my copy of Bubishi: in the four pages I read, I saw a head tilt, a leg scissors, and a single leg takedown:grin:!

    But back to the retracting hand…now let me state it unambiguously: in my opinion retracting the hand to the hip is stupid…if it’s your defensive hand. No discussion there.
    If. But that the other hand is moving doesn’t mean that the retracting hand is there to defend you!
    Now ask yourself, what if that move is actually pulling the front hand of the enemy towards your hip, and thus pulling him towards your strike?
    As a bonus, the enemy can’t defend with this hand. And where is the logical place to pull to, for maximum power (and other reasons)? Right, the hip isn’t the only option - but it’s a decent option!
    (As a note: in older styles attack and defense aren’t clearly delineated, the attack is meant to defend you, and defense is meant to put the enemy in a difficult situation - not necessarily by “attacking the limbs”. This move is a prime example: if you have stepped in with the expected angular/semicircular step, and are pulling the hand that’s closer to you towards your body and down, aiming to break the balance…well, an out of balance opponent would have a hard time countering - as evidenced in all the “dirty boxing” in MMA).


    Bottom line: if you see something in an “older” style that doesn’t make sense when you’re thinking about striking, check whether it makes more sense when grappling.

    Or, you know, you can just assume that people didn’t know better.
Feel free to comment!
 
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AsenRG

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Voros Voros - watched the clip with decent sound.
I only disagree with the guy on the two Star Wars movies and on Aragorn.
Aragorn could have had a 7, it wasn't the most technical fight, but he should have accounted for the fact that the character is a wanderer, not a wandering fencer.
Both the SW movies were consistently overrated by between 2 and 5 points (none of them is worth more than a 6, and a 5 would probably be better on the conservative side), so I've got my suspicions that the expert in question is simply a fan of Star Wars. Further proof to that: he recognised the "change of battle forms", which to me was simply "OK, that stuff didn't work, let's try something else".

Amusingly, he reminds me of another expert like that, a female MMA fighter. She obviously liked Judo and Boxing, no surprise...
But then she tried to judge the movies that didn't use those styles by their criteria. Leading to some, ahem, fine examples of how our likes and dislikes can blind us to the general picture.
Let's leave it at that:shade:.

P.S.: Just to clarify, the sword expert in that clip was orders of magnitude more knowledgeable about his field than my counterexample! I'm just saying that maybe he also had a hard time overcoming his likes and being sufficiently harsh with the movies in question:devil:!
 

AsenRG

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OK, that didn't attract much attention:smile:.
So here's the comments of Firas Zahabi on Ronda Rousey's striking skills or lack thereof, as well as on her coach's merits.
“I know a lot of guys are blowing your tops off now, but it’s not his fault,” Zahabi explained. “She is not the first athlete in MMA to fail at developing a striking game.”
“I know what you guys are going to tell me, ‘Ben Askren is a better striker than Ronda Rousey. Maia’s striking is better than Ronda Rousey’s. Why is Rousey’s striking is very stiff and mechanical?’ Is it because of his coach? I don’t think it is.
“Before you start burning your computers, hear me out. Take for instance, Ben Askren, great fighter. His coach, Duke Roufus, is an extremely competent striking coach. No one can debate that, and he has proven himself over and over again. Why isn’t Asrken’s striking like Anthony Pettis? Is it Duke Roufus’ fault? No it is not.
“The reason why a Ben Askren or a Ronda Rousey’s striking usually — not always — doesn’t hit that high level, is because they’ve spent so much time wiring their brain and their body and their nervous system to fight in one particular way. It’s opportunity cost. Every time you do one thing, you’re costing yourself in another.”
I’ll tell you something, I have a unique punching style that I’ve developed over the years for MMA particularly, and people might scoff and say, “What do you mean by unique punching style?” The distances are different in MMA, and that makes a huge difference. It took me years to understand this. The distances are different, and because of the wrestling, a lot of the infighting that we see in boxing isn’t possible. There are a lot more techniques available, because we can kick, punch and knee, but the punching style had to adapt. Plus, the gloves are smaller, which makes a huge difference. I’m wearing four-ounce gloves. I’ve got eight ounces, 16 ounces between the two of us. In a boxing match, it’s 40 ounces between the two of us, minimum. Ten-ounce gloves are the smallest you’ll see in a boxing fight.
It was me who bolded them. But that's what attracted my attention - you're free to comment on anything else, obviously!
 

Voros

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I missed your previous post but don't have much to add. Didn't know silat as a form of fighting, seems to be getting some attention in films recently too.

In terms of the comments you posted, I'm not an MMA fan for a number of reasons and I see what they mean about the ability to grapple and wrestle and kick reducing the need for inside fighting, one of my favourite things in boxing is good inside fighting.

In boxing the term for extensive mutual inside punching is 'fighting in a phone booth.'

Good inside fighting in boxing is relatively rare, often considered another 'lost art' by boxing purists but I've seen it used well more often in the smaller weight classes where the skill level and stamina of the fighters tends to be higher on average than the glamour divisions.

I think stamina is a big reason you don't see it as often these days, a lot of inside fighting is to the body and that can be really draining, especially as you go up in weight.

On the flip side though because so few fighters have a good inside game having it in your arsenal makes you particularly dangerous, if you can make it inside of course.
 

AsenRG

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I missed your previous post but don't have much to add. Didn't know silat as a form of fighting, seems to be getting some attention in films recently too.

In terms of the comments you posted, I'm not an MMA fan for a number of reasons and I see what they mean about the ability to grapple and wrestle and kick reducing the need for inside fighting, one of my favourite things in boxing is good inside fighting.

In boxing the term for extensive mutual inside punching is 'fighting in a phone booth.'

Good inside fighting in boxing is relatively rare, often considered another 'lost art' by boxing purists but I've seen it used well more often in the smaller weight classes where the skill level and stamina of the fighters tends to be higher on average than the glamour divisions.

I think stamina is a big reason you don't see it as often these days, a lot of inside fighting is to the body and that can be really draining, especially as you go up in weight.

On the flip side though because so few fighters have a good inside game having it in your arsenal makes you particularly dangerous, if you can make it inside of course.
Silat is an(other) art based on weapons use and dancing, including acrobatic dancing. I'd advise you to check it on Youtube, because it's got lots of inside fighting:shade:

And that brings us back to Zahabi's comments.
I agree hands had to change due to smaller gloves. I mean, come on, everybody says how amateur and pro boxing are different, how boxing had changed after introducing the gloves (including some of the early champions who knew both, though the name eludes me)...but somehow some people believe smaller gloves and a different ruleset should result in no changes to the boxing technique?
I find the idea mistaken:thumbsup:.
But that doesn't mean inside fighting doesn't exist in MMA. Not so many MMA fighters are any good at it (and amusingly most of them are wrestlers, it seems - though they call it "dirty boxing")...but that's different from "not applicable". In fact, the kind of inside fighting where you're not grabbing the opponent is one of the things that are waiting to be re-discovered in MMA and we're slowly getting there*, I believe.
But it shouldn't be the same inside fighting. Principles would remain - but the manifestation would be different. I mean, different rules are different - what's rules-breaking in boxing is par for the course in MMA. Why wouldn't you use a knee kick when it's allowed? An elbow? Forearm smash, hammerfist to the soft parts of the body? A trip to unbalance the opponent before striking? All well-known boxing fouls...but they are legally permitted in MMA:devil:!

*Give these guys some time! Over a decade ago, MMA fans were telling me how hand trapping doesn't work...then we got to see people with different backgrounds (beginning with Fedor against Tim Sylvia) winning fights with it. The same people were telling me how low kicks to the thigh are the ultimate kicks to the legs, because they can be practiced safeliy in sparring IIRC, "or else everybody would be using them in MMA", and how front kicks are weak and can rarely lead to knockout.
And then Machida and Anderson Silva proved otherwise, and Jon Jones and Stephen Thompson and other guys demonstrated the oblique kick and the calf kick. No they're the new "thing", it seems:tongue:.
And one thing one must admit to the MMA crowd: once they see a technique working, they find a way to drill it and experiment until they learn how to make it work under stress. For this, they've got my deepest respect.
Now if they were to learn the value of some other stuff, like respect, I'd happily switch to MMA:grin:!

Ah well...that's getting too long, so I'll stop here.
 

AsenRG

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Currently looking at the De La Riva guard from BJJ.
The similarities with some Silat positions are striking!
 

AsenRG

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I'm now proud with First Daughter. She managed to feel (and express in words) the principle of "after contact, the bodies become one and you can feel what the other's body is doing":shade:!
Importantly, I hadn't told her that this was the goal of the drill the play I'd made her do. I didn't expect her to be able to sense it:devil:.
I wonder whether I can start teaching her some tricks about disbalancing against strikes, now.
 

AsenRG

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OK, people, let's move this thread a bit.
Look at this video at 22:02.
What kind of strike is Namkabuan showing as "one of the things that were allowed back then":devil:?
 

Stevethulhu

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I'd call that strike a haito, ridge hand. Aim for the neck, throat or temple.

Sriously not allowed in competition for obvious reasons...
 

AsenRG

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I'd call that strike a haito, ridge hand. Aim for the neck, throat or temple.

Sriously not allowed in competition for obvious reasons...
Also known as "rabbit punch" when performed with the forearm, usually aimed at the back of the head. But he says it was allowed, or the referees didn't penalize it:devil:.
However, while I suspect you're right and he means the rabbit punch, I see his fist being in "leopard's paw", striking with the second knuckles. Which is curious.
Of you course, you can throw a leopard's paw and if you miss due to the enemy slipping inside, deliver the rabbit punch:shade:.
 
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Voros

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Are rabbit punches still (or ever?) legal in MMA? I don't watch MMA but recall seeing some early matches and seeing rabbit punches which horrorfied me.
 

AsenRG

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Are rabbit punches still (or ever?) legal in MMA? I don't watch MMA but recall seeing some early matches and seeing rabbit punches which horrorfied me.
They're not legal and AFAIR, never were. Though maybe they were in the very first few matches? I think there was a point when even groin shots were.
I'm not exactly an authority on how the MMA rules, though. What I know (because it was easy enough to check) is that in the current rules, the back of the head is an illegal target, period.
That said, it's an important distinction that if the hit to the illegal zone is due to the opponent moving while the initial attack was towards a legal zone...well, tough luck, hombre, deal with it:evil:!

That said, Muay Thai is a very different story. For starters, there are no unified rules, and then every stadium has its own rules, which might or might not exclude attacks to the knee and/or groin, and/or headbutts, and reportedly, using gloves. Neighboring Myanmar's competition style, Lethwei, which is rather similar still doesn't use gloves. In Thai, matches with only ropes on the fists are known as kard chuek. You can find them on youtube:devil:.
And even when rabbit punches/open hand punches are forbidden...well, not all judges are going to sanction them. Some have a more lenient attitude, possibly due to tradition. After all, the rules outlawing some "forbidden" attack zones have only been implemented relatively recently - just like it took quite a while for the Queensbury rules to get hold (and I'm one of those that are still unsure this was a good thing:thumbsup:)!
 

Voros

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They're not legal and AFAIR, never were. Though maybe they were in the very first few matches? I think there was a point when even groin shots were.
I'm not exactly an authority on how the MMA rules, though. What I know (because it was easy enough to check) is that in the current rules, the back of the head is an illegal target, period.
That said, it's an important distinction that if the hit to the illegal zone is due to the opponent moving while the initial attack was towards a legal zone...well, tough luck, hombre, deal with it:evil:!

That said, Muay Thai is a very different story. For starters, there are no unified rules, and then every stadium has its own rules, which might or might not exclude attacks to the knee and/or groin, and/or headbutts, and reportedly, using gloves. Neighboring Myanmar's competition style, Lethwei, which is rather similar still doesn't use gloves. In Thai, matches with only ropes on the fists are known as kard chuek. You can find them on youtube:devil:.
And even when rabbit punches/open hand punches are forbidden...well, not all judges are going to sanction them. Some have a more lenient attitude, possibly due to tradition. After all, the rules outlawing some "forbidden" attack zones have only been implemented relatively recently - just like it took quite a while for the Queensbury rules to get hold (and I'm one of those that are still unsure this was a good thing:thumbsup:)!

I saw some Muay Thai matches in Thailand. Pretty amazing. They've got little kids even fighting. I'll see if I can find any of the videos or pics I took.
 

AsenRG

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I saw some Muay Thai matches in Thailand. Pretty amazing. They've got little kids even fighting. I'll see if I can find any of the videos or pics I took.

If you can share those, I'm sure we'd appreciate them:shade:! Alas, my only work trip in Thailand didn't include time off for visiting a stadium...

And in the meantime, here's a clip you might find entertaining. I'm sure you'd guess why I'm posting it. I've spoken about this in the thread already, but it's way more fun when a professional MMA trainer reaches the same conclusions:grin:!


Raleel Raleel Voros Voros BedrockBrendan BedrockBrendan tenbones tenbones zanshin zanshin zarion zarion The Butcher The Butcher Stevethulhu Stevethulhu Fenris-77 Fenris-77 I'd like to know what you guys think! The point was to comment on this stuff, right?
 
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zanshin

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Interesting - talking trained against trained, and light contact. With self defence the idea (as I have been taught it) is you are just trying to buy time to escape/get help. If you aren't trained to punch, I do think that pushing someone's face or head, especially if they aren't expecting it(expecting compliance perhaps) may be better to try to get that chance to break away.

I like 'palm is control, fist is power' - that seems an elegant way to state the possibly obvious.

Its also momentum vs impact - open hand has more push power, fist strikes have penetration (to grossly simplify).

I have also now learned that the gestalt style I have been most recently learning (Kaikatsudo) incorporates elements from Bagua (frame and circular movement).

On that note, training reopens for it on the 17th May - very stoked about that :smile:.

Thanks for sharing AsenRG - thought provoking.
 

Fenris-77

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So I get to go do the in person part of NVCI training tomorrow. Yay. :blah:
 

AsenRG

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Interesting - talking trained against trained, and light contact. With self defence the idea (as I have been taught it) is you are just trying to buy time to escape/get help. If you aren't trained to punch, I do think that pushing someone's face or head, especially if they aren't expecting it(expecting compliance perhaps) may be better to try to get that chance to break away.

I like 'palm is control, fist is power' - that seems an elegant way to state the possibly obvious.

Its also momentum vs impact - open hand has more push power, fist strikes have penetration (to grossly simplify).

I have also now learned that the gestalt style I have been most recently learning (Kaikatsudo) incorporates elements from Bagua (frame and circular movement).

On that note, training reopens for it on the 17th May - very stoked about that :smile:.

Thanks for sharing AsenRG - thought provoking.
I think you are getting it wrong. The lighter contact and the open hands are just a means to avoid injury to both hands and faces while training without gloves. But the goal is to simulate full power strikes.
As you saw, the Ba Gua guy used the push to topple an opponent over.
As Ramsey Dewey said it himself, it's the absence of gloves that made the difference. Especially since they also noted the same partner also played in a more conventional manner with gloves.
And IMO, the lack of gloves is also what made this tactic preferable.
 

zanshin

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I think you are getting it wrong. The lighter contact and the open hands are just a means to avoid injury to both hands and faces while training without gloves. But the goal is to simulate full power strikes.
As you saw, the Ba Gua guy used the push to topple an opponent over.
As Ramsey Dewey said it himself, it's the absence of gloves that made the difference. Especially since they also noted the same partner also played in a more conventional manner with gloves.
And IMO, the lack of gloves is also what made this tactic preferable.
I was responding to the discussion after the first spar and the point came out that sparring with the Bagua guy was qualitatively different to the first spar. They were saying that they couldn't implement the power they usually epected.

Also, various open hand techniques are not usable in a light spar situation for reasons of safety - chops or spearhands to throat for example.

I stand by the 'momentum vs impact'. It's like with a side kick - depending on how its delivered it can be a push or a dig in.

I appreciate there are ways of delivering an open hand strike/palm heel with impact rather than push. The brick like nature of throwing a fist makes it particularly suitable to a smash.
 

zanshin

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Non Violent Crisis Intervention. Its basic holds and escapes, which I'm already pretty up on.
Good luck. Personally I quite like training on something I am good at. Obviously the narcissist in me. But I usually come away with something new, or something refreshed.

I hope it is more fun than you expect.
 

Fenris-77

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Good luck. Personally I quite like training on something I am good at. Obviously the narcissist in me. But I usually come away with something new, or something refreshed.

I hope it is more fun than you expect.
Meh. It's with teachers, so I'm the only guy in the room with additional skills. That's less fun.
 

AsenRG

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Non Violent Crisis Intervention. Its basic holds and escapes, which I'm already pretty up on.
I'm not sure whether that's even a good idea. I mean, if the sutuation has gone physical (to warrant a physical response), and the "kid" is big enough you'd need techniques, how do you interfere non-violently? Using Aikido-style controls? Holding and controlling Greco-Roman style while talking?
Maybe I'm just not in the know:shade:.
 

Fenris-77

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I'm not sure whether that's even a good idea. I mean, if the sutuation has gone physical (to warrant a physical response), and the "kid" is big enough you'd need techniques, how do you interfere non-violently? Using Aikido-style controls? Holding and controlling Greco-Roman style while talking?
Maybe I'm just not in the know:shade:.
The controls work as intended and the system itself is pretty popular world-wide. Lots of industries use it as their standard training, like nurses, PSWs, teachers, that sort of thing.
 

AsenRG

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I was responding to the discussion after the first spar and the point came out that sparring with the Bagua guy was qualitatively different to the first spar. They were saying that they couldn't implement the power they usually epected.

Also, various open hand techniques are not usable in a light spar situation for reasons of safety - chops or spearhands to throat for example.

I stand by the 'momentum vs impact'. It's like with a side kick - depending on how its delivered it can be a push or a dig in.

I appreciate there are ways of delivering an open hand strike/palm heel with impact rather than push. The brick like nature of throwing a fist makes it particularly suitable to a smash.
Yeah, exactly - the point of using open-hand strikes was to ensure that it's a push and not a dig in. But it could have been...and it shows whether you can connect or not.
In the next video with Linji, Ramsey Dewey mentions how surprised he has been that someone can apply traditional techniques (that he didn't consider workable until then) in actual sparring...:grin:

Also, we've implemented those techniques you mention in a light spar. Even eye gouges are not an issue if you wear glasses of the kind recommended for knife drills. Though of course, caution is recommended:shade:!
 

AsenRG

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The controls work as intended and the system itself is pretty popular world-wide. Lots of industries use it as their standard training, like nurses, PSWs, teachers, that sort of thing.
Great! Which controls do you use? I'd presume it's not about juji-gatame:thumbsup:!
 

Fenris-77

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Great! Which controls do you use? I'd presume it's not about juji-gatame:thumbsup:!
Hah, no. The system has a pretty narrow set of controls, all of which are focused on preventing the client from hurting themselves or others while minimizing physical risk to the client (to use the CPI jargon to describe it). Here's a link to a PDF. It's very different from the kind of controls you might learn in Judo or Jiujitsu. I had some trouble leaving my own control skills at the door, mostly because we weren't supposed to ever move or twist the wrist (for safety), which is the opposite of what I would do by instinct.
 

AsenRG

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Hah, no. The system has a pretty narrow set of controls, all of which are focused on preventing the client from hurting themselves or others while minimizing physical risk to the client (to use the CPI jargon to describe it). Here's a link to a PDF. It's very different from the kind of controls you might learn in Judo or Jiujitsu. I had some trouble leaving my own control skills at the door, mostly because we weren't supposed to ever move or twist the wrist (for safety), which is the opposite of what I would do by instinct.
Thank you, that's rather interesting. It's almost like an actual defense system, except neutered and with the teeth pulled out, and nails clipped:shade:!
Still, as long as nobody forgets rules 4&5,it should work:grin:!
As long as they don't have to aply it against a strong and halfway agile client, that is.
Amusingly, some of the positions can transition in some rather dangerous actions, though I suspect you don't tell them to apply the cow catcher from the interim control.
 

Stevethulhu

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Hah, no. The system has a pretty narrow set of controls, all of which are focused on preventing the client from hurting themselves or others while minimizing physical risk to the client (to use the CPI jargon to describe it). Here's a link to a PDF. It's very different from the kind of controls you might learn in Judo or Jiujitsu. I had some trouble leaving my own control skills at the door, mostly because we weren't supposed to ever move or twist the wrist (for safety), which is the opposite of what I would do by instinct.
Interesting pdf. There wasn't anything I didn't already know there. But it was interesting to see it applied to potentially real, rather than dojo theory situations.

That two handed wrist grab release looks exactly like a bunkai from the kata, Seipai. And the kick guard has the added benefit if hurting the kicker. Shoe sole to shin is very painful. Especially if you add a sneaky scrape down in there.

"Sorry, I made the guard a little high in the heat of the moment."
 

AsenRG

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Interesting pdf. There wasn't anything I didn't already know there. But it was interesting to see it applied to potentially real, rather than dojo theory situations.

That two handed wrist grab release looks exactly like a bunkai from the kata, Seipai. And the kick guard has the added benefit if hurting the kicker. Shoe sole to shin is very painful. Especially if you add a sneaky scrape down in there.

"Sorry, I made the guard a little high in the heat of the moment."
I've done it accidentally. Had a lot of apologizing to do afterwards.
 

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There wasn't anything on the physical side I didn't already know either. The other teachers found it instuctive though. Theres also a big part of NVCI that's verbal too, about recognizing stess and anxiety and dealing with it before it kicks off into the physical.
 

Stevethulhu

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There wasn't anything on the physical side I didn't already know either. The other teachers found it instuctive though. Theres also a big part of NVCI that's verbal too, about recognizing stess and anxiety and dealing with it before it kicks off into the physical.
From talking to a bouncer I used to train with, door work is a lot like that. If it kicks off, you've left it too late to be able to stop it getting out of hand. And a police officer I used to train with said she had trouble not using moves we'd learned in karate when she was doing an arrest restraint training course. Oddly enough, the British police frown on their officers dislocating wrists and breaking elbows with holds.

Imagine that!
 

AsenRG

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There wasn't anything on the physical side I didn't already know either. The other teachers found it instuctive though. Theres also a big part of NVCI that's verbal too, about recognizing stess and anxiety and dealing with it before it kicks off into the physical.
Yeah, deescalation always beats, well, beating people. Even if you're merely restraining them, some moron might pull in the wrong moment and break himself...:thumbsup:

And yes, the part I find most instructive is what they're omitting (not to mention the team actions which are seldom seen elsewhere). I might take this as a base to show the kids before they go to kindergarten again:tongue:!

From talking to a bouncer I used to train with, door work is a lot like that. If it kicks off, you've left it too late to be able to stop it getting out of hand. And a police officer I used to train with said she had trouble not using moves we'd learned in karate when she was doing an arrest restraint training course. Oddly enough, the British police frown on their officers dislocating wrists and breaking elbows with holds.

Imagine that!
I'd have never imagined:devil:!
 

Fenris-77

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It's a very solid base to use a starting place for kids and self defense IMO, up to a point of course. The disengages especially.
 

AsenRG

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It's a very solid base to use a starting place for kids and self defense IMO, up to a point of course. The disengages especially.
I was thinking more about the covering and restraint holds, but yeah, the grip breaking is also par for the course:shade:.
 

AsenRG

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OK, here's a rather funny video, kinda continuing the thread from last week:smile:.
 

AsenRG

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OK, I just "met" a guy who believes your back is less important to protect than the front. Because your back has strong muscles and can take more punishment. He believes that this is why our hands bend in a way that allows them to protect the front better.

It's a martial arts youtuber, BTW. And obviously he knows his stuff: I agree with him more than I agree with other guys.

Let me repeat: I quite liked the clip. It's a rather good explanation of the 9 gates (and the preferable defences - though I think he underestimates interceptions...and told him that as well). I just disagree with his assessment of targets that aren't allowed under most/any combat sport rulesets.

Anyway, the following exchange of ideas followed.

Me: "So a punch in the kidneys - which are on your back - isn't going to do as much damage as a punch in the diaphragm? Your call, but I'd prefer a strike in the diaphragm. It's less likely to piss blood afterwards.

Personally, I feel that the reason we don't use hands to protect our backs is much simpler. In other words, our hands don't really bend that way."

MA Youtuber: "Any blow hard enough to the body cavity where there’s less bond and muscle can definitely drop somebody if there not ready for it. Kidney punches are illegal in boxing abc some mma circuits.

The liver is connected directly to our respiratory systems and is easier to get to. Human arms were meant to reach behind our backs to protect. We are bipedal organisms and we were designed to be protected from behind with our back muscles and bones. Even the skull from behind is relatively durable .

All humans vitals are in front of us, eyes, throat, diagram, groin, knees, etc. But again most fights don’t end in one blow to our body’s legs, toros area. What I call the bio computer which is our see, breathe and think systems are all in close proximity of one another."

Me: "Wait, are we talking about "structural integrity" or "which are the most damaging & legal (under what ruleset?) options"? Since you had mentioned the consequences of a groin kick (in the video), I'd assumed you weren't talking about MMA...(even though the clip is "defenses for MMA").
But even in some MMA rules kidney strikes are allowed (though underutilized).
And no ruleset that I know of allows (intentional) strikes to the back of the head or the spine. Reason: those can lead to death or lifelong crippling injuries. That's why "rabbit punches" are INfamous and considered dirty: you're not supposed to by trying to kill an opponent in a sporting contest.
Yeah, I definitely would prefer to get punched in a the diaphragm or face a couple times over taking strikes to the base of the skull, back of neck, spine or kidneys. The odds of dying are simply less!
The liver, sorry, doesn't count. It's on the side of the body, you can access it from behind of from the front (and I've seen a "liver hunter" who managed to hook the liver while being at the left side of the opponent). But the opponent has a harder time preventing you from liver hunting if you're behind.

Also: I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the human animal.
We are bipedal organisms meant, like almost all organisms on Earth (amebas and such possible excluded) to fight by facing the opposition - like a gun turret). That's why getting behind the opponent is a huge advantage - and that's why it's one of the goals of most wrestling, as well as ba gua zhang. On top of having targets that are at least as valuable, the opponent has a hard time counter-attacking...so you can safely "put your heart and soul into the strike" :smile: .
Evolutionary speaking we're meant to protect from this by having friends who protect our backs. The second option is simply by outrunning the attacking predator (human or otherwise): usually animals don't face the other direction unless they've chosen "flight".
But that's the difference: fighting with said friends (to establish "pecking order", say), you'd punch in the faces. Fighting against another, hostile group...well, anything goes. Including attacks from the back and weapons. Case in point: commando raids. But same commandos don't do that to their friends in a bar brawl, do they?
You can see that in nature and life as well, among animals, and other species. You'd hunt or slaughter dangerous animals from behind, or failing that, from the side. Too, a wolfpack, or a hunting lioness, would be trying to get to you from behind - in order to get a free shot at you without retaliation. The rules are similar for most living organisms.
At the same time, if they're fighting the same species, and it's a mating fight (which doesn't need end in death), they'd usually avoid going to the back and attacking the spine. Same thing with animals that have horns: they bash their skulls to show dominance, but try to disembowel you and me. Because we're from a different species and different rules apply."
 
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